What is Jayson Werth? According to the Nationals….a HELLUVA lot!!! SOUND OFF HERE!!!

by ThomasWayne

No need for an article.  This is fairly open and shut.

Jayson Werth, formerly of the Phillies, is no longer  a free agent.

Here are the particulars.

Current age – 31.

Years on contract - 7.

Total Compensation – $126 Million (American)

Merry Christmas and Holy Shit.

Let the conversation begin….is this the dumbest deal since the Giants/Aaron Rowand fiasco or an incredibley shrewd maneuver from a team that has no were to go  but up?

Feel free to express your opinion one way or another.

338 Responses to “What is Jayson Werth? According to the Nationals….a HELLUVA lot!!! SOUND OFF HERE!!!”

  1. Chuck Says:

    It’s only the dumbest deal until Cliff Lee signs.

  2. Raul Says:

    LOL @ putting American in parenthesis
    You were hoping it was yen?

  3. Jim Says:

    If Ted Lerner and Mike Rizzo disappear from the league meetings and are later found wearing concrete overshoes, you can look for a conspiracy of the other owners.

    This is a mind boggling deal.

  4. Cameron Says:

    If it was 7 for 15, I’d understand. The Nats have money to spend, but I had no idea it was gonna be on Werth. Left field move there, folks. Decent move, but probably a bit overdone. He wanted years more than money, you could’ve saved some cash by starting smaller.

  5. Cameron Says:

    Oh, and Milwaukee got Shawn Marcum straght-up for Brett Lawrie.

    Now, Lawrie’s a couple of years away, but this says to me that Toronto has confidence in its pitching depth, and lost confidence in Hill’s ability at second.

    …And I think Miwaukee probably bought high.

  6. John Says:

    That tells me that the Brewers are going to try to lock Weeks into an extension. Which is dangerous given his injury history.

  7. Cameron Says:

    But given his production is at least understandable. I’ll label this a gamble, but I think Weeks could be a premier second baseman if healthy. I’d extend him, just look into a good backup.

  8. Raul Says:

    That Marcum for Lawrie deal could be a pretty good deal for Toronto.
    I like it. It’s probably the only move I’ve liked this entire off-season.

    Marcum is pretty good, and might improve more if he can stay healthy, pitching in the National League. I mean let’s face it, Marcum is probably Milwaukee’s #2 guy right now.

    If Lawrie can cut down on the strikeouts, he should be a nice 2nd baseman.

    It’s a bit of a stretch for Toronto, but Marcum is 28, approaching Free Agency in a few years and it’s better to sell early rather than late.

  9. Raul Says:

    By the way, when Thomas wrote “Merry Christmas and Holy Sh**”,
    I thought, dude, you could have went with “Holy Santa Claus Sh**”. I would have gotten the Step Brothers reference.

    :)

  10. Raul Says:

    Marvin Miller and Pat Gillick get elected.
    Steinbrenner and Concepcion miss.

  11. Cameron Says:

    I actually didn’t like it looking from the fact that Lawrie could be a good second baseman, but they already have someone who isn’t that bad in Aaron Hill. The Brewers traded their top prospect for a guy who’s just good, maybe even just average.

    It says the Brewers will be like a crack whore for any form of pitching and will give up whatever pocket change they have for it. Still, if they wanted a legit #2 to be behind Gallardo, they could’ve done better than Marcum.

    It says the Blue Jays have little confidence in Aaron Hill’s ability to stay at second, even though he’s a year removed from being the best second baseman in the league.

    The only good thing it says is that AA can swing a hell of a deal and they have THAT many young arms that they can send one away at the blink of an eye and not care.

    …And if Toronto does try and get Greinke, Lawrie’s a good 2B and I don’t think we have that position covered in the future.

  12. Raul Says:

    It’s about the future for Toronto, Cameron.

    Aaron Hill isn’t going to be around to see the success Toronto will likely enjoy.

  13. Chuck Says:

    Miller missed by a vote, Raul.

    Gillick is the only electee this year.

  14. Chuck Says:

    “By the way, when Thomas wrote “Merry Christmas and Holy Sh**””

    From Chevy Chase in Lampoon’s “Christmas Vacation.”

  15. Chuck Says:

    Toronto trades an overrated major league pitcher for an overrated minor league second baseman.

    The only advantage for Toronto is Lawrie is from Canada.

    Maybe he can sell five or six extra tickets.

  16. Bob Says:

    About a month ago I predicted there would be no deal LONGER than 3 years given to a player in his 30’s. God am I wrong. I just wonder if I am smarter or dumber than Rizzo.

  17. Chuck Says:

    Mike Rizzo is the GM of a major league baseball team.

    You’re a Red Sox fan.

    If Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels were looking for a third, you’d get my vote, Bob.

    :)

  18. Bob Says:

    In other words, I would be the dumbest.

  19. Raul Says:

    In an MLB.com article talking about Zack Greinke, Dick Kaegel linked Jeff Francoeur as a possible Outfielder that could fill the Royals’ need for a power bat.

    I recommend that Dick Kaegel stop writing for MLB.com.

  20. Cameron Says:

    Farncouer’s a 20 homer guy in a normal park, 10 in KC. KC IS a hitter’s park, but the thing’s made for doubles hitters. Billy Butler would probably be a 30 homer guy in a good park, but here he’s got 50 doubles every year. Fly balls go here to die.

    Though it is a VERY nice park, if any of you come here it’s a good value. 5 dollar general admission and great food and attractions around the stadium. Plus the CrownVision’s HD.

  21. John Says:

    Kaufman Stadium is absolutely gorgeous.

    Jeff Francoeur is a very bad baseball player.

  22. Bob Says:

    Regarding post # 16 I meant to say longer than 5 years, not 3 years.

  23. brautigan Says:

    If Jeff Francouer had a clue about pitch selection, NO ONE would say he is a bad ballplayer. Fact is, he is a good hitter and cannot wait for a mistake pitch, which makes him a lousy hitter. If Francouer could develop (and he won’t, not after 3,000 clueless at bats) a batting eye, he would be a gold glove in RF and an all star every year. Since he can’t get more than 40 walks a year, we have people saying he is a very bad ballplayer.

    Yes, one facet can make or break a ballplayer. (See Manny Mota and Smokey Burgess for examples)

  24. Raul Says:

    I see what you’re saying, Braut.

    Fair point.

  25. Brautigan Says:

    Raul:

    I swear, the idiots have taken control of MLB. San Diego was 1 game away from the playoffs so what do they do? They trade their best player. They are going to be fielding a AAA team next year and if I was a San Diego fan, I would withold going to any further games until there is new ownership. Trading Gonzalez makes no sense, NONE, unless Boston has uncompromising photos of Moorad and a jackass. (you decide which)

  26. Hartvig Says:

    “unless Boston has uncompromising photos of Moorad and a jackass.”

    Funny,

    I was actually going to say the same thing about Francouer (but didn’t have the balls to because I figured I just take a heap of abuse). Just watching him his first couple of years on TBS I thought he looked like he was going to be a stud once he developed a little discipline. He actually has some power if the pitch is over the plate. If he could just get his OPB up to league average or a little better, his slugging percentage would probably go up by .05 or more if he didn’t keep swinging at a steady diet of low and outside. Too bad he and Mark Reynolds can’t trade ability to make contact & batting eye. You’d have a hell of a ball player. Unfortunately, neither is ever likely to happen.

  27. Cameron Says:

    Maybe they want to see how much of their 90 win season was due to Gonzo. Dumb way to do it.

  28. Jim Says:

    I was going to say something snarky about Pads fans already staying away. But I looked up the 2010 attendance and found out they drew better than 2 million and averaged over 26,000 a game. So they could stay home.

  29. Bob Says:

    I was reading an article on another site, and the author said he thought the Padres should have taken Drake Britton or Jose Iglesius instead of Anthony Rizzo, as the writer contends Rizzo will be hurt by Petco.

  30. Raul Says:

    I think you have to take the best players, Bob.
    I don’t think you can let your stadium dictate your roster, at least, to a degree.

    Mark Reynolds may be more valuable in Camden Yards than at Petco Park. But that’s only because he lacks the overall skills to be successful in Petco Park.

    Now a guy like Albert Pujols is great if you have a 350-foot power alley or a 420-foot power alley

  31. Hartvig Says:

    And Bob, I think your original idea for 3 years max for anyone over 30 (if not named Puljos) is pretty much what I think as well. Assuming a future absent steroids, I think we’ll see a lot more players starting to see some serious decline at 35 or thereabouts. There will probably be a few more now than 50 years ago because of improved training & diet and there are always a few freaks of nature (like Nolan Ryan) but paying almost anyone over 35 or 36 serious money is a big gamble. I’d rather gamble $10 million that Ben Sheets still has it in 2011 than Cliff Lee is going to be worth $17 million in 2017.

    And, just to be clear, I don’t think either is a good idea.

  32. Bob Says:

    I just wonder if the Nationals promised to Boras that they would make a huge offer to Werth in order to procure Harper. 7 years to Werth when he played in that park, and had Howard, Utley and Rollins to help him. And no dh position to fall back on? That is outlandish. And I was hoping the Sox would sign him to a 4 year deal and he could DH after Ortiz retires, or the Sox let him go. I assume this will be his last year in a Boston uniform.
    Crawford and Lee will now get at least 5 years.

  33. Chuck Says:

    “I just wonder if the Nationals promised to Boras that they would make a huge offer to Werth in order to procure Harper.”

    No.

  34. Raul Says:

    Looks like the Yankees will offer Cliff Lee a huge contract.

    At this point, the only thing that that can prevent future financial ruin for the Yankees is Cliff Lee himself….by signing with Texas.

  35. Chuck Says:

    Joe texted me from Florida about an hour ago and said the Yankees are out.

  36. Raul Says:

    That’s good news. And I hope it’s true.

    I’m sure some people would think that’s an odd thing to say as a Yankees fan but the priority should be getting rid of some players, not taking on huge contracts.

    Jeter’s back, but Cashman would make me a happy camper if he can find someway to dump that Granderson contract.

  37. Chuck Says:

    If you remember the Yankees were “out” on Sabathia too before they came in last minute and blew everybody away.

    New hot rumor is Zach Greinke to Tampa for Matt Garza and Reid Brignac. There might be a couple of minor leaguers involved from each side, but those are the principles.

  38. Raul Says:

    You’re kidding me.

    That’s not even close to being a fair deal.

  39. Cameron Says:

    …Matt Garza and Reid Brignac? Really?

    GOD DAMMIT MOORE!!! LEARN TO TRADE!!!

  40. Raul Says:

    Tampa wants Greinke?

    Jennings is part of it. That, or no deal. Plain and simple.

  41. Cameron Says:

    You want a fair deal for Greinke?

    Greinke for Jennings, Hellickson, Brignac, and Tim Beckham.

    One’s ML ready, two are rookies, and Beckham for funsies. Shit, I think the first three would be a fair trade to be honest. Jennings looks good, we know Hellickson can throw and Briganc… Eh, he can play second and will still be in his 20s for the next few years.

  42. Cameron Says:

    The other names I heard wanting Greinke were the Dodgers and Toronto.

    …Now, the Dodgers can fuck off because they have nothing in the farm system I’d want besides Trayvon Robinson. Matt Kemp costs too much and I don’t think would do well and Andre Ethier/Clayton Kershaw won’t be sent here, Chad Billsingley isn’t good enough to be a centerpiece.

    Though we like Drabek and Snider in a trade. Snider, Drabek, Thames, and Lawrie? I’d think about that if I was sent that.

  43. Chuck Says:

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

    See, this is why I hate fucking stupid trade rumors.

    Because most of them are fucking stupid.

  44. Raul Says:

    Snider isn’t really much but a power guy who can’t seem to hit consistently.
    Lawrie, I like, but he’s years away.

    So you’re left with Drabek and Thames. Eh, I guess. But you have to think…

    Greinke still has 2 years left.

  45. Cameron Says:

    Snider has potential, but the thing is he’s ML ready and still young and not fully developed. The guy could be a solid #6 hitter in the grand scheme of themes. Drabek’s not bad and Thames could make a good OF in a couple of years. I’m thinking we could use Drabek and Snider now and when they mature, most of the farm, including the prospects in the Toronto deal will be ready.

    Though I like my Hellickson, Jennings, and Brignac deal a bit better.

    …Now, if I wanted to get TRULY creative, I could think that Tom Collins (the guy we got from Atlanta for Ankiel, good reliever) to be our closer and think…

    Greinke to Tampa for Hellickson, Jennings, Davis/Niemann
    Soria to Anaheim for Trout and Trumbo

    Whattya think?

  46. Cameron Says:

    In the meantime ’til Collins gets there, Robinson Tejeda has been surprisingly effective. Another move I’d make, take the money saved from Greinke, sign Rafael Soriano for three years, one or two option years in case Collins doesn’t work.

  47. Raul Says:

    You just gave Chuck an aneurysm.

  48. Cameron Says:

    Again, I stand by the policy of if you’re gonna punt the next couple of years, go big or go home.

  49. Chuck Says:

    The good thing about Greinke in Tampa is he doesn’t have to worry about pitching in front of large crowds.

  50. Cameron Says:

    Oooh, Tampa Burn.

  51. Cameron Says:

    Hey Chuck, want another stupid trade rumor? Boston’s trying to get Carlos Beltran through trade.

  52. Chuck Says:

    You know who was responsible for Toronto drafting Travis Snider?

    Keith Law.

  53. Chuck Says:

    For who?

    Adrian Gonzalez?

    LOL

  54. Jim Says:

    Cam, lot’s of denials about a RS interest in Beltran. The names that keep coming up are Josh Willingham, though he may have signed somewhere, and Magglio Ordonez.

  55. Cameron Says:

    Beltran to New York pretty much can’t happen without them sending Cameron or JD Drew out in a contract swap.

  56. Cameron Says:

    Though I have to admit, Beltran to Boston would not be a bad move if you can punt JD Drew or send Mike Cameron out. Beltran’s still a good player and he’d be in a loaded lineup.

  57. Jim Says:

    Beltran could play left. Drew’s not going anywhere and Cameron could be the 4th OF, unless Ellsbury is dealt. The Sox really want Kalish to start the season in AAA, which is why they’re looking for another OF, particularly a RH bat.

  58. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, you think Alderson would take Drew and shift Pagan to center? If I was in that, I’d probably take Cameron, they really don’t have the OF depth not to take someone in there. Ellsbury would probably be the best idea and move Bay to RF.

  59. Chuck Says:

    “Beltran could play left”

    You’re not seriously suggesting Ellsbury would play center over Beltran, are you?

    That’d be like the Mariners moving Ken Griffey Jr to left to make room for Darren Bragg.

  60. Cameron Says:

    Ellsbury’s faster and has a good glove, but yeah, I’d play Beltran in center too, he’s still great there. I’m with Chuck.

    And was Raul right, did I give you an aneurysm?

  61. Chuck Says:

    Oh, yeah, big time.

    I wish my eight year old had an imagination like you.

  62. Cameron Says:

    If I ever fulfill my dream of becoming a major league GM, I imagine you lambasting me as an idiot daily.

  63. Cameron Says:

    Of course, that’s something I thought of as a pure “What If” scenario. Trading Greinke AND Soria? Bitch please.

  64. Cameron Says:

    Just saw Mark Reynolds homers every 16.4 ABs. If he wasn’t so bad at making contact, that’d make him worth something.

  65. John Says:

    frankly, I would play cameron over ellsbury. Cammy and beltran in one of? Ortiz could play lf and it would still be one of the best (im not actually suggesting this)

  66. Chuck Says:

    “If I ever fulfill my dream of becoming a major league GM, I imagine you lambasting me as an idiot daily”

    As long as Omar Minaya, Josh Byrnes and Billy Beane have jobs, I think you’d be pretty safe.

  67. Cameron Says:

    John, lovely as that sounds, think about this. David Ortiz was thrown out trying to run a routine double because he was so slow. Not stretching a single. I, in my never exercised a day outside of high school gym 5′6″ 220 pound fat ass could’ve ran that double.

    Two identical Franklin Guttierrez-Torii Hunter-KenGriffey hybrids couldn’t save an OF with Ortiz in it.

  68. Cameron Says:

    Beane has ambition and has performance better than he deserves. I wouldn’t consider him a full idiot, just full of shit.

    I might hire Omar Minaya as a consultant. Hear his advice and do the exact opposite of what he says. I’d be king in no time.

  69. Cameron Says:

    I see Colorado wants to try and get Michael Young to be their everyday 2B. Who do you send? Ian Stewart? A prospect? Can Texas cover third with Jorge Cantu?

    I dunno, but I’ll keep an eye on this one. Best case scenario looks to be an infield of Helton/Wigginton, Young, Tulo, and Stewart. Not bad, but they still need to get a solid OF.

  70. Chuck Says:

    Colorado has four players I’d want for Young.

    Two of them, Tulo and CarGo, are undradeable.

    The other two are Ubaldo and Dexter Fowler.

    For Michael Young, I’d have to get both.

    At least.

  71. Cameron Says:

    Dexter Fowler? Really? Dude’s got a good glove and kegs, but no bat. They already have a guy exactly like that in Julio Borbon. And Ubaldo isn’t going anywhere, least of all for Mike Young. Young’s good, but not good enough to move Jiminez.

  72. Cameron Says:

    Er, legs, I mean. Though if he did have kegs, that’d sweeten the trade.

  73. Cameron Says:

    Oh my god, the Cubs gave Carlos Pena a one-year 10 million dollar offer. Can someone slap the owners and tell them to stop pissing money away? The dude batted below the Mendoza Line last year and you give him ten million?!?

  74. Cameron Says:

    Just for fun, I made that list of when I said I could break down what the centerpieces for Greinke should be for each team. I’ve got a high asking price, but these are what I’m opening with and I’d be willing to haggle. Wil Myers could potentially be a right fielder, so I’d be willing to take catchers. Christian Colon looks to be our shortstop, but I’ll still take middle infielders because second base isn’t covered. I’d take a lefty starter if good enough, because we’ve got Dwyer, Duffy, and Arguelles all fighting for spots. My priorities are outfielders and righty starters. That said, with my reasoning in mind, here’s the list. Sepearated by division for convenience. These are openers, most aren’t complete package, and these are starting points.

    Baltimore: Adam Jones, Jake Arrieta
    Boston: Clay Buccholz/Jon Lester, Jose Iglesias
    Yankees: Jesus Montero, Phil Hughes
    Tampa: Jeremy Hellickson, Desmond Jennings

    Toronto: Kyle Drabek, Travis Snider, JP Arrencibia
    White Sox: Gordon Beckham/Alexei Ramirez, Gavin Floyd
    Cleveland: Shin-Soo Choo, Justin Masterson
    Detroit: Jacob Turner, Austin Jackson
    Minnesota: Kyle Gibson, Delmon Young/Aaron Hicks

    Anaheim: Mike Trout, Mark Trumbo/Hank Conger
    Oakland: Chris Carter, Trevor Cahill
    Seattle: Dustin Ackley, Michael Pineda
    Texas: Martin Perez, Tanner Scheppers

    Atlanta: Julio Teheran/Arodys Vizciano, Tommy Hanson
    Florida: Mike Stanton/Logan Morrison, Chris Coghlan
    Mets: Jose Reyes
    Philadelphia: Domonic Brown
    Washington: Danny Espinosa/Ian Desmond, Drew Storen/Tyler Clippard

    Cubs: Tyler Colvin, Starlin Castro/Darwin Barney
    Cincinnati: Jay Bruce, Johnny Cueto/Edinson Volquez/Aroldis Chapman
    Houston: Hunter Pence/Michael Bourn
    Milwaukee: Yovanni Gallardo or Rickie Weeks/Corey Hart
    Pittsburgh: Andrew McCutchen, Jose Tabata/Neil Walker
    St. Louis: Colby Rasmus

    Arizona: Justin Upton, Ian Kennedy/Daniel Hudson
    Colorado: Jhoulys Chacin, Jonathon Herrera
    Los Angeles: Trayvon Robinson, Chad Billingsley
    San Diego: Donovan Tate, Clayton Richard/Simon Castro
    San Francisco: Brandon Belt, Zack Wheeler

    Some teams were really bad to look deals for. Cleveland and Colorado were the absolute worst fits.

  75. Jim Says:

    Chuck @ 59 only due to concern with the condition of Beltran’s knees. The Sox of have all but said that Ellsbury will start in CF, though I’d prefer Cameron.

    Assuming Kalish develops or by some miracle Reddick learns the strike zone, Ells will be gone by the trade deadline.

  76. raul Says:

    Apparently the recession hasn’t hurt baseball if you’re giving Jorge De La Rosa and Carlos Pena salaries in excess of 10 million per year.

    I don’t think it’s a stretch to call this the single worst Free Agency period in the history of the game. Horrendous contract after horrendous contract.

  77. Chuck Says:

    Jim, the Red Sox have said Ellsbury will be the starter only because they have no one better, not because they’re committed to him.

    Ellsbury’s done in Boston.

  78. Chuck Says:

    I just saw the news.

    Ten million for a guy who hit a buck ninety six?

    Are you effin’ kidding me?

    It is however, only fitting that it was the Cubs who gave it to him.

  79. Cameron Says:

    Carlos Pena – $10,000,000
    Carlos Silva – $11,500,000
    Ryan Dempster – $13,500,000
    Kosuke Fukudome – $13,500,000
    Aramis Ramirez – $14,600,000
    Carlos Zambrano – $17,880,000
    Alfonso Soriano – $18,000,000
    Total Salary – $98,980,000
    Not Winning A World Series in 103 Years – Priceless

  80. Lefty33 Says:

    “I don’t think it’s a stretch to call this the single worst Free Agency period in the history of the game. Horrendous contract after horrendous contract.”

    It’s just like what the Yankees did non-stop in the ’80s.

    Just this time suprisingly it’s not the Yankees.

  81. raul Says:

    They’re gonna have to sell a hell of a lot of pierogies to pay those salaries.

  82. Bob Says:

    And Lee, Crawford and Beltre are still out there, plus the Sox and Yankees might duke it out for Russell Martin.

  83. raul Says:

    Of all the players to fight over, Russell Martin might be the most meaningless.

  84. raul Says:

    Konerko signs for 3 years – 37.5 million

    12 million 1st year
    12 million 2nd year
    6.5 million 3rd year (he’ll be 37)
    7 years deferred at 1 million each year.

  85. Chuck Says:

    My turn to give Cameron an aneurysm;

    Royals signed Jeff Francoeur to a one year deal.

    If I’m Zach Greinke, I’m not going anywhere now, with all the offense Frenchy brings to the table?

    Has to be worth an extra win next year, at least.

    :)

  86. Cameron Says:

    I knew we were going to sign Francouer since, like, July. No surprise there. Dayton Moore publicly said he liked him and no one else gave a shit.

    But hey, he’s just another in a long string of bad free agent signings. Even if he makes minimum wage, he’ll still be bad. And I’m not talking 400 grand, I mean Missouri’s $7.25/hr minimum wage.

  87. Cameron Says:

    I’m actually somewhat impressed at the approach Pittsburgh’s taking at the meetings. They’re not trying to get involved on any big names, but they picked up quite a bit.

    -Matt Diaz (hopefully this stops them from playing Ryan Doumit as their starting RF)
    -Kevin Correia
    -Scott Olsen

    And they’re also looking at…

    -Kevin Gregg
    -Justin Duchscherer
    -Jeremy Accardo

    They’re also looking at Brendan Ryan, Bartolo Colon, and Aaron Heilman, bu I jsut wanted to list the guys I think are smart picks.

    They’re taking a lot of low-risk moves to restock the bullpen, bolster a depleted rotation, and make them a better team until their young guys start stepping up. Why can’t Dayton Moore be more like Neal Huntington?

  88. Hossrex Says:

    Raul: “Of all the players to fight over, Russell Martin might be the most meaningless.”

    THANK you.

    Notice the trade interest in Martin before he was a free agent.

    Zero.

    Now all of a sudden people are interested? That’s not a reflection of his ability, but instead of pure desperation on the part of certain teams.

  89. Chuck Says:

    “Matt Diaz (hopefully this stops them from playing Ryan Doumit as their starting RF)”

    You know Doumit’s a catcher, right?

    “Why can’t Dayton Moore be more like Neal Huntington?”

    If the Royals signed Diaz, Correia, and Olsen you’d be pitching a bitch fit that Moore was an idiot.

    In three, four years the Royals will be in the World Series and the Pirates in the International League.

    Careful what you wish for.

  90. raul Says:

    Correia can be a good middle-rotation guy.
    Gregg isn’t horrendous.
    Accardo is a bum, although it seems like he’s been injured? I thought he was on Toronto.

    They’re paying a bit much for Doumit and Snyder, based on their payroll.

    McCutchen and Walker are probably there for the long-term. Alvarez may turn out to be a bust, but I guess there’s hope for him. I think Alvarez is probably Mark Reynolds in the making. I’m not a big fan of Tabata. I think he needs to get that slugging a lot closer to .450 than .400 and I don’t think he ever will. So he better hit for a lot of average and steal a lot of bases.

  91. Chuck Says:

    “but instead of pure desperation on the part of certain teams.”

    When you’re catching options are Posada, Cervelli and Montero, goddamn right we’re desperate.

  92. raul Says:

    Hey Hossrex,

    I guess you might chuckle at this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp23NHWBd6A

  93. Cameron Says:

    Here’s the thing, I checked Pittsburgh’s depth chart. The plan is to start Snyder behind the plate and Doumit in RF.

    Their number one starter’s James McDonald, their best catcher is in right field, there’s no bullpen outside of Evan Meek, there’s lots of problems, but I’m glad they’re not going out of their way by trying to expand payroll or losing young talent in trades. They know they won’t be competitive so it’s low-risk, low-reward. They’re waiting.

    And I didn’t mean the exact moves, but Huntington’s showing competency with free agent moves, something Moore has never done. Remember, we’re paying Gil Meche 12 million and paid Jose Guillen 30 over the last 3.

  94. Chuck Says:

    It’s no secret the Pirates are trying to trade Doumit, so it really doesn’t matter where he’s listed because come spring training he’ll be somewhere else. The Pirates are even willing to eat salary.

  95. brautigan Says:

    Raul:

    Accardo was in Las Vegas for the majority of the 2010 season. I think he was still in the process of recovering from an arm injury, at least, that was the impression I got from talking with him.

  96. Chuck Says:

    Joe texted this morning, said he saw Scott Boras walking through the lobby accompanied by three bodyguards.

    I replied, “Just three?”

  97. Jim Says:

    What, no buxom Ukrainian nurse?

  98. Cameron Says:

    Odd that we were talking about Jeremy Accardo and calling him a bum on his birthday. Poor guy.

  99. raul Says:

    Jeremy celebrates Festivus. It’s customary to call him a bum on his birthday.
    It’s the Airing of the Grievances.

  100. Cameron Says:

    Let’s hope the Ricketts family doesn’t celebrate, I don’t think Tom could handle all the abuse.

  101. Bob Says:

    The Padres acquired Jason Bartlett.

  102. Chuck Says:

    For whom?

  103. Brautigan Says:

    God, the Padres are clueless, aren’t they? Which really tells me agents don’t have a clue either (see Jeff Moorad for proof).

  104. Brautigan Says:

    Chuck: According to baseball reference, the Padres sent LHP Cesar Ramos and RHP Adam Russell to Tampa Bay. So it looks like Tampa Bay is jettisoning salary for a couple of AAA pitchers. Ramos could make it as a reliever and a spot starter, but Russell really tanked at Portland last year.

  105. Brautigan Says:

    It is now Reid Brignac time in Tampa. Go for it Reid, I predicted big things from you when you were in Visalia, so now make me look smart!!!

  106. John Says:

    Chuck: “Has to be worth an extra win next year, at least.”

    0.7 according to your favorite stat!

  107. Chuck Says:

    Isn’t Russell Jeff’s kid?

    Never mind, he’s a lefty.

  108. Chuck Says:

    Baseball America came out with it’s AL West top prospect list last week and it’s touting Mike Trout as the best position prospect in the game.

    Five tools, blah, blah, blah.

    Could be a regular by age 20, blah, blah, blah.

    Then at the bottom it says he might have to move to left field because of the prescence of Peter Bourjos.

    Wha….?

    Does BA not know Bourjos sucks?

  109. brautigan Says:

    Chuck: I don’t know if he is Jeff’s son or not, but the guy is HUGE. He is about 6′8. And, he is a RHP, not a lefty. AND, he did have a tough year and he’ll probably be in Durham next year.

  110. Cameron Says:

    No, but Jeff Russell DOES have a son pitching for the Cubs.

  111. Cameron Says:

    The Brewers are looking to sign Carl Pavano. Normally, I wouldn’t say Pavano should be anyone’s number one priority on free agency… But let’s face it, Milwaukee’s THAT fucked for pitching. If they signed him, the rotation would look like…

    Yovanni Gallardo
    Carl Pavano
    Shawn Marcum
    Randy Wolf
    Jeremy Jeffress

    …Not great, but fucking miles better than last year.

  112. Cameron Says:

    Two more teams have been added to the “Greinke talks” list.

    Phillies are a longshot (Domonic Brown is good, but not enough prospects or young ML talent to really facilitate a trade unless they’d take Dwyer/Duffy and be willing to move Cole Hamels.

    The Marlins are trying to work a three-team trade to send Greinke to Florida (his hometown team). For me, the talks start and end with Mike Stanton. No Stanton, no dice.

  113. Chuck Says:

    JJ Hardy to the Orioles for a couple of scraps.

  114. Cameron Says:

    Deck chairs on the Titanic, Chuck. Deck chairs.

  115. Raul Says:

    Hardy’s a little expensive…but if he could ever get back to his 2008 level…

  116. Cameron Says:

    His 2007 was better, but even under ideal circumstances, I’m still saying the O’s don’t crack 75 wins.

  117. Cameron Says:

    Okay, 2007 looked better counting-wise, but 2008 was better as a player. He just di more for the team the year before.

    That’s the problem with MVP sometimes. Do you give it to the better player or who did more for his team? I think counting stats might be more important to rely on than slash stats in that case.

  118. Chuck Says:

    The Yankees made Cliff Lee a six year, $140 million offer.

    Within an hour, Lee’s agent checked out of his hotel.

    Looks like he was using the other teams to get an extra year out of Cashman.

    Fuck.

    I think if Lee goes to New York, I might take a baseball break. This free agent shit pisses me off more than any strike ever did.

  119. Cameron Says:

    I thought Lee was pushing for seven, they’re not gonna take this, are they?

  120. Chuck Says:

    I think the whole seven year thing was just a smokescreen.

  121. Cameron Says:

    Possibly. Just be thankful Lee isn’t a Boras client. Imagine what he’d be asking for Lee…

  122. Cameron Says:

    Here’s something to think about though…

    If New York gets Lee, they’re out on Crawford.
    If Texas is out on Lee, they’re in on Carwford.

    …Texas wins.

  123. Chuck Says:

    All along Lee kept saying it wasn’t about money, it was about job security with contract length and no trade rights.

    If he signs with the Yankees, then he’s an effin’ liar.

  124. Cameron Says:

    Hey, having a job guaranteed until you’re 37’s pretty fucking secure in the MLB.

  125. Chuck Says:

    Wow, the Mariners are going all out to improve their offense.

    First, Jack Cust, now Miguel Olivo.

  126. Cameron Says:

    Low-risk signings. You know what you get when you pick these guys up. Surprised they aren’t trying to get Russel Branyan back as a bench player.

  127. Chuck Says:

    Branyan’s had 31 and 25 HR the last two seasons, he should be a starter for someone.

    Christ, he should get at least what Pena got.

  128. Raul Says:

    Seems like everyone has a trade rumor. I’m betting Carlos Lee’s name pops up in the next three days.

  129. Cameron Says:

    Houtson trades Carlos Lee to Free Agency for not having Carlos Lee anymore. Free Agency gets screwed.

  130. John Says:

    “Branyan’s had 31 and 25 HR the last two seasons, he should be a starter for someone.”

    Branyan is less than useless against LHP. And I think he strikes out at a more prolific rate than Mark Reynolds.

    “Hardy’s a little expensive…but if he could ever get back to his 2008 level…”

    In 2008, JJ Hardy was the best position player on the Brewers.
    Not Fielder. Not Braun. Hardy.

    By 2009, he had been sent to the minors to add another year until he could be a FA and increase his trade value. And of course, we traded him for the world’s worst hitter, Carlos Gomez.

    Cameron,

    No way the Brewers bank on a stoner to make the rotation. Prince is getting traded for a legit #2 + some relief help.

  131. John Says:

    lol…I don’t usually read the mlb.com comments, but this one was funny/pathetic, depending on if the guy was serious:

    “biptobip wrote:
    i was surprised to hear that the brewers turned down from the red sox clay bucholtz,jed lowrire,jacoby ellsburt,john lester and 5 million cash for fielder”

  132. Cameron Says:

    I’d bank on Jeffress. I know he’s one joint away from a permanent ban, but the kid can throw. Still, he’d be shifted to the bullpen if they could get a good innings-eater.

  133. Cameron Says:

    …Buccholz and Lester? Really? For fuck’s sake, when I was analyzing Greinke deals, I deemed taking both as too much to ask for unless we offered both Dwyer and Duffy and even then they’d still tell us to fuck off.

    Did this dumbass write that before or after Gonzo came to Boston?

  134. Chuck Says:

    John,

    In 547 career AB’s against lefties, Branyan has a .207 BA with 237 K’s, so, yeah, you’re right.

  135. Chuck Says:

    Jeffess isn’t starting.

    “Did this dumbass write that before or after Gonzo came to Boston’

    Apparently after a 12 pack of Sam Adams.

  136. Cameron Says:

    Come to think of it, platooning him with Smoak makes no sense. Texas should take him as a platoon partner for Mitch Moreland.

  137. Chuck Says:

    “i was surprised to hear that the brewers turned down from the red sox clay bucholtz,jed lowrire,jacoby ellsburt,john lester and 5 million cash for fielder”

    There’s no way the Brewers turn that down.

    There’s no way Boston offers it either.

  138. John Says:

    It was either satire, or the world’s stupidest fan.

  139. Cameron Says:

    Trust me, he’s not even close to the dumbest guy on mlb’s comment section.

  140. Chuck Says:

    You know what the dumbest part of that rumor is?

    That the Red Sox would send cash to Milwaukee.

    Lester makes $5.75 million.

    The other three make about a million and a half….combined.

    Why not send the whole seven million?

    If he had said the Brewers would send five million to Boston, that would make more sense.

    Surprised that guy’s smart enough to turn his computer on.

  141. Chuck Says:

    Bob Feller’s been transferred to hospice care.

    Not good.

  142. Lefty33 Says:

    “Here’s something to think about though…

    If New York gets Lee, they’re out on Crawford.
    If Texas is out on Lee, they’re in on Carwford.

    …Texas wins.”

    Who would have thought that actually Boston is in on Crawford.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20101208&content_id=16288370&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

  143. Jim Says:

    Crawford to the Sox, nice news to wake up to. Yes the Sox were very quiet on this.

  144. Cameron Says:

    They were awful quiet about this, but give Boston credit for keeping the franchise alive. I thought after this year they were hosed, but they’re looking like AL East favorites again.

  145. Cameron Says:

    Wow, we just picked up another ex-Brave in Melky Cabrera.

    Melky Cabrera
    Jeff Francouer
    Gregor Blanco
    Kyle Davies

    Can’t we add any good players from them?

  146. Cameron Says:

    Time to ruin Chuck’s morning!

    New York added the seventh year for the Lee deal.

  147. Raul Says:

    damn it.

  148. Hartvig Says:

    If Boston stays healthy this year, they’re looking pretty tough to beat. And they don’t appear to be saddled with too many risky contracts: Drew, Cameron & Scutaro are off the books after this year and Matsuzaka the following. Beckett’s a bit of an injury risk but he’s no so expensive that they couldn’t compete if he went down. If they can extend Gonzalez at anything up to Howard-like $ or years they’ll do OK, if it’s less then they made a hell of a deal. I know they’re a whole lot more likely that they’ss be happy they gave Crawford the 7 year contract rather than Werth.

    IF they stay healthy and IF Big Papi’s April slump doesn’t extend into July and IF Gonzalez can make a seamless transition to the American League- they’re going to have a pretty formidable offense to go with some pretty decent pitching. Unless New York can land Greinke without giving up any of their current major league components (like Hughes or Gardner) which doesn’t seem likely, I think the AL is Boston’s to loose this year.

  149. Raul Says:

    The Redsox and Cardinals are going to end up bidding against themselves for first basemen in the next year.

    There aren’t any teams left with an open spot for a 1B that are capable of offering huge contracts. I think Gonzalez and Pujols will get their money. But there’s really no reason for anyone to offer them a record-setting deal.

    Pujols won’t really lose because he means so much to the Cardinals, they’ll take care of him.

    But Prince Fielder is fucked.

  150. Hartvig Says:

    Geez, pretty soon baseball is going to have to add a senior tour so New York will have a place to play. If they sign him, that would mean they are committed to paying a minimum of $13 million to 9 players who will be 36 years old or older in the final year of their contract and in most of those cases it’s going to be closer to $20 million and 40 years old.

  151. Raul Says:

    The Yankees are simply going to operate at a loss, and funnel dollars from the YES Network to the team.

    The YES Network is actually more valuable. That’s the only way I think they can continue to give out this huge contracts.

  152. Raul Says:

    *give out THESE huge contracts.
    Sometimes I type like Obama makes tax deals. All fucked up.

  153. Bob Says:

    The Yannkees selected Daniel Turpim from the Sox in the Rule V draft.

  154. Chuck Says:

    **Sigh**

    The only Red Sox regulars who could start for the Yankees, without changing positions, are Crawford and Saltalamacchia.

    The Sox have improved their offense tremendously over the past few days but it’s still not as good as the Yankees.

    Boston has better pitching, and would even if the Yankees sign Lee.

    Werth’s contract really looks like an overpay now, doesn’t it?

  155. John Says:

    Chuck,

    I’m not sure if you should make that 50$ check out to me, or if I should have you donate it to a charity of my choice.

  156. Chuck Says:

    Refresh me, please?

  157. John Says:

    Well if Carl Crawford isn’t the starting LF for the Yankees, who do you think is?

  158. Chuck Says:

    Find me the comment.

    You seem to have no problem digging through and finding other “predictions” I’ve made.

  159. Chuck Says:

    “New York added the seventh year for the Lee deal.”

    But didn’t increase the money.

    Six years, 140 to seven years, 140.

    The Rangers OWNER is at Lee’s house today.

    The head honcho himself, not some peon.

    Something tells me he didn’t jump on a plane just to check out the weather.

    I think he’s heading back to Dallas with his new pitcher.

  160. John Says:

    Chuck,

    http://www.dugoutcentral.com/?p=1390

    Comments 82 and 84

    Pretty sure you remember…

  161. Raul Says:

    When you’re talking about 140 or 160 million dollars, you’re at the point where 20 million shouldn’t even matter.

  162. Raul Says:

    If the Yankees don’t get Cliff Lee, it’s quite possibly they might flip out and ship Gardner to KC for Greinke.

    So I’m not sure Chuck’s gonna cut that check just yet…

  163. Bob Says:

    And why would Kansas City demand Gardner?

  164. Chuck Says:

    “50$ says that Gardner is an opening day starter for the Yankees next year.”

    You said that, John.

    What I said was;

    “I wrote that down, so next year when he’s not I can bring it up to you like once a fucking week for the rest of the season.”

    The bet was if Gardner would start, not that the Yankees would sign Crawford.

    If Gardner starts opening day, then I’ll send you a check.

  165. Chuck Says:

    “And why would Kansas City demand Gardner”

    Right, especially since they just signed Melky.

    :)

  166. Chuck Says:

    “If Gardner starts opening day, then I’ll send you a check.”

    Although you can kiss your personalized Robin Yount autograph goodbye.

  167. Cameron Says:

    Gardner hits doubles, is a great leadoff hitter, has an awesome glove, and can steal 50-60 bases without breaking a sweat. ALL shit we need. Plus, he won’t be 30 until like 2017, so he’ll productive for us for a while.

    Forgot to include Gardner in my New York package. Him, Montero, Hughes at least. We can see if Montero can play LF.

  168. Bob Says:

    The Orioles got J.J Hardy and Brendan Harris for Jim Hoey and Brett Jacobson, both relievers.

  169. Cameron Says:

    Well okay, we really don’t need more doubles hitters, but about 107% of all balls that should be homers hit by Royals turn into doubles, though that’s a conservative estimate. Still, doubles hitters do well here.

  170. Cameron Says:

    Realize this, Milwaukee has no chance in hell of holding onto Prince and no way they’re going to be competitive in the division. They, by all forms of logic, have to trade Fielder.

  171. Cameron Says:

    And I’m amazed you guys are having the debate over who Boston’s CF is without including Darnell McDonald.

    …Slight bit of sarcasm, but Ellsbury and Cameron had 66 games between them last year. CF goes to whoever can show up.

  172. Chuck Says:

    True, Cameron.

    And let’s not forget the fact Ellsbury sucks.

    Part of getting Crawford is so they can now trade Ellsbury without any whining from Red Sox Nation.

  173. Cameron Says:

    Ellsbury’s somewhat decent when he’s healthy. Not exactly a wizard with the bat, but he’s got a good glove and legs. Cameron’s not what he used to be, but he stays healthier (48 games to Ells’ 18). Still, they’d be best trying to get an everyday CF. If they can find a way to get Beltran, they should. I heard the MEes want Matsuzaka. TAKE HIM! PLEASE!

  174. Bob Says:

    Chuck, one thing about the Sox brass, is they do what they think is right, not what the public craves. They traded Nomar. They drafted an undersized SS who most said would never reach the majors. If the Sox get an offer for Ellsbury that they think improves the team, they will pounce. As they should. Even if I disagree with it.

  175. Cameron Says:

    Honestly… Even if it took moving Josh Beckett to get Carlos Beltran, it’s something I’d seriously consider. There are realtively cheap back-end guys you can use to spell Wake as the fifth starter out there and you can push for a major starter next year when you have Drew, Ortiz, and Scutaro off the books.

  176. Bob Says:

    The Sox are not about to add another outfielder this off-season. Maybe Mike Napoli or Russell Martin, plus some arms for the pen, or to stash in Pawtucket. I hope they retaim Andrew Miller, and add Fuentes.

  177. Cameron Says:

    They’re not going to, but they should or there’s a big hole in centerfield every soon.

  178. John Says:

    Chuck, the intellectual discourse you provide is easily worth the 50$ you’ll owe me on opening day.

    I maintain that the Brewers will find a taker for prince, but the odds of that are slimming..

  179. Jim Says:

    Now that he won’t cost them a first round pick, the Sox will talk to Scott Downs.

  180. Cameron Says:

    There’s quite a few teams that could use a power bat like that at first.

    Tampa (Considering the pitching depth, expect a strong push)
    Toronto (Oddly enough, the only position WITHOUT a power bat there)
    Seattle (Doubtful)
    Texas (He’d dominate there, if Lee goes to New York, expect a good push)
    Mets (Again, doubtful)
    Washington (Though SP looks slim)
    Atlanta (They could deem Freeman expendable and pick up Prince to strengthen their division presence)
    Dodgers (Possible, but unlikely)
    San Diego (Prince could still be a 30+ HR guy there)
    Arizona (But Kennedy and Hudson are probably both gone in that case)

  181. Jim Says:

    Cam: why would a team trade anyone of value for Fielder when they know that Boras will take him to FA? Possibly at the trade deadline a team that believes Prince’s bat will get them to the playoffs, the Brewers might get something back, but not until then. The time to trade Fielder was last winter.

  182. Cameron Says:

    There’s a couple of teams with money to extend him. Texas, New York, maybe Atlanta and LA. If he does get traded, there’d need to be an extension involved and Fielder’s better than what you’d get than most FA classes.

  183. Chuck Says:

    Raul’s right, if these contracts to A-Gon, Teixeira, Howard and pretty soon prove anything it’s that the Fat Prince of Bel-Air is screwed.

    He won’t get Jayson Werth money.

  184. Cameron Says:

    Probably more incentive for Boras to want to get a trade. Best cash in now in a good season for marquee players, next year may not net as big a payday.

  185. Chuck Says:

    The “rich” teams that could afford Prince have already signed better players.

    Boston: If they can’t sign Gonzalez maybe, but not at $161 for seven years.

    New York: covered.

    Tampa: No money

    Toronto: Who the hell wants to play there?

    Baltimore: A good possibility. Angelos is a tightwad, but he has the cash.

    Chicago: Covered

    KC: covered

    Minny: covered

    Cleveland: no money

    Detroit: covered

    Angels: maybe. Kendry’s good, but…

    Mariners: maybe.

    A’s: no money

    Rangers: a sleeper.

    I would eliminate the NL altogether because Prince is rapidly approaching becoming a full time DH.

  186. Raul Says:

    I think Baltimore is a slight possibility.
    But like you said, Prince Fielder is going to be a DH soon, and you just don’t give designated hitters 100 million dollar contracts.

  187. Cameron Says:

    “Toronto: Who the hell wants to play there?”

    Toronto SOMEHOW pulled out a winning season last year, has a lot of young guys coming through the tubes, and could take Tampa’s place as a wildcard threat quickly enough with the right guy and Prince could do that. Their DH/1B last years was Lind and Overbay. Prince could do better than both combined.

    Again, if Tampa can use the money they didn’t give Crawford and Pena or Texas the Lee money, he could go there. Texas has a surprising amount of cash and the pitching prospects to make it work. They probably wouldn’t even have to give up Perez. Scheppers maybe, but not Perez.

  188. brautigan Says:

    Cameron: NO way does Prince go to San Diego. If San Diego couldn’t hang on to Gonzo, why would they invest in Prince?

  189. Chuck Says:

    Tampa’s not going to pay one guy 30% of their payroll.

    If they had any money, Crawford and Pena wouldn’t be ex-Rays.

  190. Cameron Says:

    True, the best bet would be Texas. That move would pretty much be the best thing Texas could do this winter. Lee may go to New York and they have absolutely no one to cover first base. Davis is sub-Mendoza, Moreland’s a AAAAer at best, and Cantu ain’t much better.

  191. Chuck Says:

    I like Moreland, actually.

    He can play OF, too.

    Cantu’s a free agent I thought?

  192. Cameron Says:

    He is?

    Anyway, would you rather have Moreland, a guy who’s alright? Or a guy who’s worst power year outside of a rookie year was 36 homers? In that lineup, in Arlington, Prince gets wins. You want him to DH? Fine, tell Vlad to fuck off and slot Prince there. If they can’t get Lee, this is the best way to salvage their offseason.

    Prince would probably even be the better pickup, I’m not sure. Prince has concerns about his performance declining, but Lee’s 31 and only has a couple of good years to base performance off of. Prince would be less of a crapshoot and he’s five years younger.

  193. Bob Says:

    The best way to salvage the season for the Rangers if they fail to land Lee is to get Grienke. Although this is not an argument for the Royals to trade him; heck, I believe and hope they retain him.

  194. Cameron Says:

    Honestly, with Wilson, Lewis, Holland, Hunter, and Feldman, there’s a decent rotation. Not necessarily great, but I think you could get Fielder cheaper than Lee and they have some great starters in the making.

    Get Fielder, maybe Pavano and some decent relievers. Greinke would be good for them and I’d love to pick apart all that young talent Texas has, but I think they’re good on pitching. There’s a big hole with Vlad leaving in that offense and I think picking up Fielder would make that lineup even stronger than what they were this year. They were winning without Lee once, they can do it again.

  195. Cameron Says:

    More sabermetric stupidity.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9440

    …Who bats JD Drew leadoff?

  196. Brautigan Says:

    Dude: Tampa Bay batted John Jaso lead off. J.D. Drew would be a vast improvement!

  197. John Says:

    Cameron,

    Drew reaches base, like, all the time. Usually what you look for in a lead-off guy.

    I think I’d go with Crawford personally, and bat Ellsbury down a bit…but Drew leading off isn’t that ridiculous.

  198. Bob Says:

    Crawford has said he does not like batting lead-off.

  199. Cameron Says:

    Drew batting leadoff isn’t that bad in theory, but look at how he’s been lately. He’s getting older and slower, he won’t be able to stretch extra bases on the good hitters behind him, he’s a station-to-station guy.

    On top of that, Drew’s OBP took a 51 point nosedive last year and he was only on .341. I’d like a bit better off my leadoff guy or one who’s able to move down the bases if it’s lower. He’ll be 35 next year and age is not treating him kindly. I’d stick him in the 6 or 7 spot where his declining performance isn’t going to hurt Boston.

    …Though, as braut pointed out, he’s not the worst leadoff hitter in his own division.

    Though, odd thing is, they want Crawford batting third. Personally, I’d say a lineup like…

    Crawford
    Pedroia
    Youkilis
    Gonzalez
    Ortiz
    Drew
    Cameron
    Saltalamacchia
    Scutaro

    Would probably be ideal. Maybe swap Youk and Gonzalez, but other than that, I think there’s your best scenario.

  200. Cameron Says:

    …Fuck that, I’m not batting a man who’s never hit 20 homers in his life third. I don’t care what Boston says, batting Crawford third is a fucking terrible idea. He’s a .300 lifetime hitter, but he’s also a .444 slugger. You have guys who are .500 plus sluggers. You have like, 4 of them. Why put a light bat in the middle of a lineup that loaded?

  201. Bob Says:

    I think Lowrie beats out Scutaro for the shortstop position, and I much prefer Ellsbury to Mike Cameron. Earlier today Jason Stark mentioned teams inquired about trading for Mike Cameron. I really hope the Sox trade him. Although, I do not think he is worth much.

  202. Cameron Says:

    Speaking of on-base guys, Manny Ramirez made base at a .409 clip and batted .290. His power was just about gone last year, but he’s still got some value. Almost no one wants him and I can’t figure out why. Yes he’s a head case, yes he’s a Boras client, but from what I heard (from Scott Boras) is that you could probably get him for 5 million, maybe cheaper.

    …How come nobody’s taking a flier on that? Fuck, WE could afford him. Yes, Manny could be playing for the Royals because he’s that desperate for a job and there’s that little interest.

    …If Manny comes to KC, I’m getting a picture and showing it to you guys to say “I told you so”.

  203. Hossrex Says:

    John: “Drew reaches base, like, all the time. Usually what you look for in a lead-off guy. “

    Oh please John. You’re oversimplifying, and you know it.

    Drew might have a career OBP of .387… very good for a lead-off hitter… but he also has a SLG of .499… or in other words, too high for a lead-off hitter to properly take advantage of.

    Nothing better than a guy who hits a lot of doubles with no one on, eh?

  204. Cameron Says:

    I like Ellsbury better than Cameron as a player, but Cameron plays a better centerfield than Ellsbury. Ells broke his ribs trying to dive for balls in left, could you imagine what he’d do in center? He’s got more trade worth, ship him out instead.

    As for Lowrie, he’s good, but I’d keep him more as a bench player. He could spell Scutaro on days off or when he goes on a cold streak. Don’t ship him off altogether because Pedroia’s a bit of an injury risk, but I wouldn’t list him as my favorite starter.

  205. Cameron Says:

    “Nothing better than a guy who hits a lot of doubles with no one on, eh?”

    By that logic, Billy Butler makes a great leadoff hitter, but would you do it?

  206. Bob Says:

    Cameron, you think Manny will be happy on a one-year contract? Both Boston and Los Angeles know he won’t. And he will be cheaper than 5 million. The next guy to sign will be Beltre, followed by Lee, or so I think. Manny is a post-Christmas guy.
    He will get a gig for 3.5 million. Shit, I think the Yankees will do it.

  207. Cameron Says:

    Manny won’t be that happy with a one year contract, but you fill it with incentives and a club/mutual option. Make him work for his paycheck. He may grow to like a team.

    Honestly, even if he doesn’t like a one year contract, he’ll take it because he wants a job. He’s still valubale. He won’t be like Dye or Sheffield. Ramirez will take a DH job, Ramirez will take a paycut. He wants to play that badly. He’ll probably end up being a huge bargain for whoever signs him.

  208. Cameron Says:

    Just a quick poll here, who thinks Lee goes to New York?

    New York lost out on Crawford, lost out on Werth, Beltre won’t fit, there’s no other top-flight free agents outside there. Nothing’s stopping them from going all-out to sign him.

    …We saw in 2008 what happens when the Yankees go all-out. Three times.

  209. Bob Says:

    “He may grow to like a team.” If that were true, he would have never left the Indians. And he wants to play badly? Not when the opposing pitcher is good, or if he has a hangnail. Although I could see Detroit signing him, he will bitch about missing the late Tiger Stadiium.

  210. Bob Says:

    Lee stays in Texas. His wife will have the final say.

  211. Cameron Says:

    He was bitching while he was making 20 million dollars. If he wants to make even half that, he’s gonna have to shut his mouth and play. Ramirez like the money, he’ll play hard.

    He ultimately plays for money first. Now that he doesn’t have a 20 million guaranteed annual salary, he’s gonna need to play his ass off to make anything. Here’s seeing if he can acutally do it.

  212. Cameron Says:

    His wife may not like Yankees fans, but realize there’s 23 million per on the table.

    I could even see 7/125 on the table. Before bonuses. They’re dumb enough to do it.

  213. Bob Says:

    Cameron, he had a chance to play for money with Boston. He lost money by (not)playing his way out of Boston. The Sox would have picked up both his options, as this brass is loyal to his hardest workers, Ortiz, Varitek and Wakefield are evidence of this. See you in the morning.

  214. Cameron Says:

    Fair enough. Honestly, I know he’ll come on the cheap, and it’s a crapshoot figuring out where he lands besides the AL. Performance and attitude look a bit cloudy. It’ll be something I’m keeping an eye on.

    Gun to my head, I say the A’s pick him up. Good OBP, high slugging, picked up on the cheap. It screams Beane.

  215. Chuck Says:

    I saw that BR link Cam, and, yeah, I agree.

    I still want to know why batting Ellsbury seventh and Crawford eighth is supposed to be an optimal lineup.

  216. Chuck Says:

    “Lee stays in Texas. His wife will have the final say.”

    That’s how Teixeira ended up in New York.

  217. Cameron Says:

    Thank you Chuck. I still think it’s kind of funny that I say Drew batting leadoff is bad based on traditional player analysis, then go right around saying Manny Ramirez would be a good pickup for just about anybody based on stats.

    Does this make me the middle ground of dugout central?

  218. Chuck Says:

    “Just a quick poll here, who thinks Lee goes to New York?”

    I don’t think Lee wants anything to do with New York regardless of what the Missus says.

    The guy’s already a multi millionaire and can live anywhere he wants and he lives in Little Rock fucking Arkansas.

    He’s a country boy, and after home games wants to go home to his little ranch and milk a couple of cows or head out to the barn and check on the latest batch of moonshine.

    Last thing he wants to do is take the subway to work every day sitting next to a bunch of preppies and pickpockets.

    He will take less years and less money to stay in Texas.

    Although for me personally, I could give a rat’s ass where he goes as long as it isn’t New York. He could go to the Yomiuri goddamn Giants for all I care.

  219. Cameron Says:

    The Yomiuri Goddamn Giants? Did they rename the team while I wasn’t looking?

  220. Chuck Says:

    Yep.

    Don’t find groundbreaking news like that on MLBTradeRumors.

  221. Cameron Says:

    No, but you do learn that the Cubs certainly found the most baffling way to spend 10 million dollars ever.

  222. Chuck Says:

    Or that the Royals just gave a million bucks to a guy who just got RELEASED….

  223. Cameron Says:

    Which no-name free agent was that? I know it’s not Frenchy, he got 2.5 with an option year for 4.

    …Don’t get me started on how much I hate it. All I can say it’s better than the contract our last right fielder got.

  224. Chuck Says:

    Melky Cabrera

  225. Cameron Says:

    Ah. …Well, look at what our OF at the end of the year was. I hate to say it, but Melky’s an upgrade.

  226. Cameron Says:

    No surprise, the Angels are regrouping after losing Crawford and setting sights on Soriano and Beltre. If they want to stay competitive in the AL West, I’d say go all-out for both. You could probably get them both for what it’d take to get Crawford on the year.

  227. Bob Says:

    Chuck, post 218 reminded me of John Rocker.

  228. Chuck Says:

    LOL, Bob.

    Cam, you mean Soriano the pitcher, right?

  229. Cameron Says:

    Yeah. Right now, their best bullpen piece is Rodney. I’m saying at least Rafael Soriano, more if they can get them. They’ve got good stuff down the line, but not enough to keep them competitive against Texas on its own strength, and with Seattle and Oakland shaping up as well, the best chance they have is free agency.

  230. Raul Says:

    I think Lee goes to Texas.

  231. Bob Says:

    The Reds extended the contract of Jay Bruce by at least 5 years. Nice move.

  232. Chuck Says:

    “Now that he won’t cost them a first round pick, the Sox will talk to Scott Downs.”

    He’ll still cost a supp and their second rounder.

    This is supposed to be one of the strongest drafts of late and the Sox won’t have a pick until the 30th round the way they’re going.

  233. Bob Says:

    Far from true. They got 2 picks from Detroit, and they will get two for Beltre. The Sox gave up prospects for Gonzalez, not draft picks. It could be the Yanks who might not have a 1st round pick if the sign Lee.

  234. Bob Says:

    And the Angels get Scott Downs. I suppose if they also get Beltre, and Lee goes elsewhere, plus Grienke stays in Kansas City, it will be a good 2-team race out there.

  235. Chuck Says:

    Touche’ Bob.

    Boston does have the 19th pick for Martinez.

    Although if Beltre signs with the Angels they won’t get their first rounder.

    The Sox also lose picks for Crawford.

  236. Cameron Says:

    Moreno’s got money. I still see them going after Soriano and Beltre, and probably getting both. The AL West could be competitive next year. I’d like to see. Oakland’s young guys are still solidifying, but their offense is weak. Mariners still have good pitching and they shored up that offense.

    The AL West will be very interesting next year.

  237. Cameron Says:

    Also, you what’s nuts? Lee’s got offers of 23.6 per on the table.

    I think only Roy Halladay’s worth that kind of money. You know what I think Lee’s worth, given his late start and LONG history of being mediocre to bad?

    2008-2010 were good, but AT MOST I’d say he’d only be worth about 12.5 per. People willing to pay north of 23 are out of their fucking gourd, he’s not gonna be that good. He’ll be a lot closer to AJ Burnett than CC Sabathia.

  238. Chuck Says:

    I agree.

    On a performance to dollar basis, Lee’s going to be the next Carl Pavano.

  239. John Says:

    The ace is overrated.

    Its absolutely ridiculous for the Yankees to spend 23 million on a great pitcher when it would clearly be more valuable to round out their rotation with B+ level pitching.

    If the Giants rotation faced the Spahn and Sain Braves for 162 games with equal offenses, the former would win 100 gams…guaranteed.

  240. Cameron Says:

    Fair assessment Chuck, which is really funny considering how cheap and effective Pavano’s been the past couple of years.

  241. Chuck Says:

    “Its absolutely ridiculous for the Yankees to spend 23 million on a great pitcher”

    True.

    Which is why I’m glad he’s Texas’ problem.

  242. Cameron Says:

    Don’t count your failures before they hatch, Chuck.

  243. Chuck Says:

    I wouldn’t bet on it, but it’s better than 50/50 Lee stays a Ranger.

  244. Chuck Says:

    Bob, the Angels’ first round pick is protected, so if the Angels sign Beltre the Sox get a supp pick after the first round and the Angels third round pick.

    Toronto finished lower in the standings and thus got the Angels’ second rounder.

    The Sox pick up five spots (24th to 19th) after the Martinez/Crawford signings.

  245. Bob Says:

    Thanks.

  246. Raul Says:

    Might not be entirely about the money for Lee, but there’s no income tax in Texas. And Texas is a lot closer to Arkansas than New York.

    The only real edge NY has is the promise of playing in October virtually ever year.
    But Texas could dominate the AL West for years with a rotation of Lee, Martin Perez and Neftali Feliz.

    Texas probably couldn’t afford a big 1B like Prince Fielder after signing Lee, but they might not need him anyway. Hamilton and Cruz have enough power, and finding decent homer potential at 1B, 3B or DH isn’t very hard, or expensive.

  247. Cameron Says:

    True, but they have a bunch of great young pitching already there and they also don’t have first or DH completely set. They already have a bunch of, as said earlier, “B level pitching”. It’d be better for them not to overspend for a guy like Lee when they could get Prince and a guy like Carl Pavano for the same price.

  248. Chuck Says:

    Lee is four years older than Sabathia was when he signed, and the Yanks are considering offering essentially the same money?

    Bitch all you want about having to pay ARod and Jeter over 20 mil in their forties, but they’re position players for chrissakes.

    What are the chances Lee is an effective pitcher at 40?

    Or even 37?

    Slim and none.

    Somebody, somewhere in Yankeeland has to look at this and say “whoa”.

    I’d much rather have Greinke anyway.

    He’s a better pitcher.

  249. Raul Says:

    If there’s a pitcher worth 100 million dollars, it’s Greinke. Not Cliff Lee.

    There are some talks about Matt Garza being traded. Certainly not a stud, but he’s a decent pitcher. I think of him a little bit like AJ Burnett. Both Garza and Burnett have good stuff (Burnett is clearly better), both guys usually give up less hits than innings pitched, but both shoot themselves in the foot with walks and trying to get cute around the corners.

    If a team could get Garza to attack the zone and limit homers, he could be a solid pick up.

    Unfortunately, there are those that think Garza (like Burnett, perhaps) is a bit of a head case.

  250. Chuck Says:

    If this was about money Lee would have signed already.

    YES Network and ESPN Dallas are both saying Lee will announce the Rangers on Tuesday.

  251. Hossrex Says:

    Dear MLBtv

    Please stop with the fucking flashing effects during your top 100 (or whatever) lists. It’s not only annoying, it’s actively unpleasant to watch. It hurts my eyes, and distracts from watching the otherwise awesome highlight. I don’t understand why you think the top 100 greatest catches of all time is so inherently uninteresting that you need to spice it up by using Mtv style edits, and rock video-ish special effects.

    Just fucking stop.

    P.S. Also what the fuck is up with using a filter effect to make modern footage look vintage (poor color, fake film scratches, etc). In my 32 years of living, I’ve never once watched the footage of Jim Edmonds making “The Catch”, and thought “gee… you know what would make this better? If it were difficult to see.” I have a hard time believing anyone has ever thought that, so why the fuck do you do it? Fucking stop.

    Ever yours for advice,

    Hossrex

  252. Chuck Says:

    Be thankful you’re not watching porn.

    :)

  253. Hossrex Says:

    Does the porn you watch have fake vintage effects, and epilepsy inducing flashes?

    Google the word “hamster”, but put an “x” at the beginning.

  254. Cameron Says:

    Is it a bit crazy of me to want Greinke traded rather than stay in KC? We could get a great return for him and stock the team for when it’s in its prime. On the other hand, Zack could be our ace if he stays. I’m torn on whether I want him here or not.

  255. Raul Says:

    Best to trade too early, than too late.

    It’s not the same situation, but had the Brewers moved Prince Fielder a year ago, they’d be in an entirely different situation.

    The Royals still have Greinke for 2 more years. They could, and should demand a lot for him. The question is whether there’s a team out there with the prospects, and sense of urgency to make a WS run now.

  256. Hartvig Says:

    The only problem with trading for prospects is that, almost no matter what, it’s a crap shoot wether they’re going to pan out or not. Baseball America 2004 top 10: Joe Mauer, BJ Upton, Delmon Young,Edwin Jackson,Rickie Weeks,Alex Rios,Kaz Matsui, Greg MIller (who?),Grady Sizemore, Prince Fielder. Except for Mauer & Fielder would anyone trade Greinke for any 2 of those players? Hell, I’m not sure I’d make the deal for all 8 in between Mauer & Fielder and yet those were the top 10 prospects in all of baseball. Fluke year, you say? Let’s try 2003: Mark Teixeira,Rocco Baldelli,Jose Reyes, Joe Mauer (again), Jesse Foppert (again, who?),Jose Contreras, Brandon Phillips, Hediki Matsui, Gavin Floyd, Francisco Rodriguez. In the top 25 you find Jason Stokes, Hee Seop Choi, Brad Nelson, John VanBenschoten, & Sean Burnett. Yes you also find Miguel Cabrera, Justin Morneau, Victor Martinez, Adam Wainwright & Hanley Ramirez. But that’s also the top 25 prospects in ALL of MLB, not just one franchise.

    If I were KC, I would bite the bullet & hang on to Greinke & wait for the team to mature around him. Three years from now he’ll still be just 29 years old and should still be in his prime for at least a few more. He’ll be expensive but you’ll at least know you have a rotation ace. And even if he’s so fantastically good in 2011 or 12 that there is no way KC will be able to resign him, someone will be desperate enough to empty their entire farm system for him then.

  257. Raul Says:

    Pitching is iffy.

    Greinke could break down with arm troubles tomorrow. If the Royals could get Greinke for Mike Stanton, a B pitching prospect and a case of 4 Loko, you do it.

  258. Raul Says:

    That should say “if the Royals could TRADE Greinke…”

  259. Raul Says:

    ESPN’s profile page of Logan Morrison says he’s 6′3, 245lbs.

    I don’t know what this guy did in the minors. And I know he only had 244 ABs in the bigs last year. But you better hit more than 2 friggin home runs when you’re built like a Steelers linebacker.

  260. Hartvig Says:

    It’s a big difference if they’ve produced at the MLB level, that I will concede. And pitchers can and do break down. So if the Giants decide to offer Buster Posey or Atlanta ponies up Heyward or Florida offers up Stanton that’s probably a deal you can live with. But Desmond Jennings (Baseball America #6 in 2010) could blossom into the next Juan Encarnacion.

  261. Hossrex Says:

    The Greinke thing isn’t even just that simple though. Greinke has a history of panic attacks (ala Kahlil “I didn’t play in 2010″ Greene), and who knows what he would do in any city that would be interested in him.

    How long does CC give to the press for questions after a start? Could a guy with anxiety problems perform under that level of scrutiny?

    It’s a catch 22. He’s too good to stay there, but he’s not good enough to go anywhere else.

    He’s like the superhot chick with self-esteem problems. At first it seems all awesome that she’s interested in hanging out with you, then you realize that half the time you’re hanging out she just cries, and the other half she complains about her dad.

  262. John Says:

    “and a case of four loko”

    I think a single four loko would make Greinke forget about his anxiety problems in a hurry.

  263. Cameron Says:

    I heard Florida was trying to get Greinke. Like I said before, Stanton, Coghlan, and probably a SP like Sanchez or Volstad would be a good bet. Still, I’m not sure if the prospect gambling would be worth it rather than keeping Zack.

  264. Raul Says:

    Dodgers just signed Tony Gwynn Jr to a 1 year contract for 675,000. I guess the genes didn’t get passed down in that family.

  265. brautigan Says:

    “Greg Miller- who?”

    Greg Miller would be everyone’s Greinke, had he stayed healthy. I got to see him pitch before his arm injury, and he was something special. It’s a shame really. He was going to be great.

  266. Raul Says:

    Greg Miller’s name is too generic to be a great …anything.

  267. Chuck Says:

    Logan Morrison is not 245. I’m pretty sure he’s not 225.

    If I’m Dayton Moore I call Greinke into my office, tear up his contract and blank check him.

    He’s a top five pitcher in baseball and with the Royals having such a deep system they could easily go on a Yankees/Braves run for the next six, seven years.

    Without Greinke at the top of the rotation, they’ll still be the Royals.

  268. Chuck Says:

    Greinke’s “issues” were five years ago.

    I don’t think it’s fair to think of him the same today as then. I mean, the guy won a freakin’ Cy, pretty hard to do under “normal” conditions.

    Pitching in front of 30,000 is the same in Kansas City as it is in New York or in Miami.

    He might have a different lifestyle OFF the field, but once he’s at the park I wouldn’t be all that worried.

    Like I said, if I’m Brian Cashman and I really was serious about getting him, there are NO untouchables in the organization..major or minor league.

  269. Bob Says:

    Fine, Hughes, Montero, Nunez and one other pitching prospect, perhaps Betances.

  270. Bob Says:

    Speaking of (former) Yankee prospects. the Rockies signed Eric Duncan to a minor-league contract.

  271. Chuck Says:

    Done

  272. Chuck Says:

    Although I would substitute Banuelos for Betances.

  273. Raul Says:

    Eric Duncan…lol. I haven’t thought about him in 5 years.

    I’m not giving up Montero and Hughes to get Greinke. The Yankees are WS contenders WITHOUT Greinke.

    There’s simply no need for the Yankees to give up everything when they can just sign him outright as a FA. The Yankees aren’t like other teams with a window with which to make a run. Their window is every single year.

    What the Yankees should do, is blow everyone out of the water when it comes to international talent like those kids in Venezuela & the Dominican Republic. What they would pay for 1 year of Cliff Lee could get them like the best 25 players in the entire country of DR.

  274. Raul Says:

    Before the Yankees got Alex Rodriguez, I remember people drooling about the idea of the Yankees infield having Nick Johnson and Drew Henson.

    LOL

  275. Raul Says:

    The Mets signed Ronny Paulino.

    Why can’t the Mets sign any good catchers? Good lord. They haven’t had a decent catcher in 20 years. I mean, if you consider Mike Piazza a “catcher”…well…ok.

  276. Chuck Says:

    Google “Jeff Leadbetter”

  277. Raul Says:

    Ledbetter sucked, apparently.
    Except in college.

  278. Chuck Says:

    Which is why prospect lists are just guesses.

    Which is why giving ten million to a 17 year old high school kid is 100 times dumber than giving $126 million to an All Star.

  279. Raul Says:

    Maybe.

    But I’m not saying the Yankees should give a 17 year old kid 10 million.
    Just….20 kids 1 million.

  280. John Says:

    “Pitching in front of 30,000 is the same in Kansas City as it is in New York or in Miami.”

    In the same way that pitching in front of a unicorn is the same as pitching in front of a rabbit.

    “He’s a top five pitcher in baseball”

    Well, he was a top-1 pitcher in 2009.
    He was basically an average pitcher this year.
    He certainly has top-5 stuff when he’s on. Problem was, he never really got in a groove this year.

  281. Chuck Says:

    Of the top two international free agents this year, one signed with the Pirates, the other with Kansas City.

    Either the talent level sucks or the big money teams don’t feel the investment to be worth it.

  282. Cameron Says:

    Amateur free agents. I know the KC one is Arguelles, but who’s Pitt’s?

    And you know why Zack wasn’t on this year? Because after the Cy, ALL eyes were on him. He still very much has pressure issues.

  283. Chuck Says:

    Luis Heredia, 6′6″ 185 pound 16 year old from Mexico.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBfzETIOkgI

  284. Raul Says:

    I think Greinke lost interest in the season because the Royals kept fucking up his leads and not scoring in his starts.

    He was fine this year.

  285. Cameron Says:

    He had an ERA north of 4, bro. Bullpens can’t blow that.

  286. John Says:

    “He was fine this year.”

    That’s a fair assessment.

    His ERA+ was 100. That’s like, the definition of fine.

  287. Chuck Says:

    “He had an ERA north of 4, bro. Bullpens can’t blow that.”

    Ever hear of inherited runners?

  288. Chuck Says:

    Zach Greinke’s career ERA+ is better than Cliff Lee’s.

    Just sayin’..

  289. Raul Says:

    Well when you give up 2 or 3 runs over 6 or 7 or 8 innings, and your team hits like a bunch of san francisco castro street fairies…and you give up 2 more runs in your last inning…..then yeah, you’re going to have an ERA of 4.

    But that doesn’t mean you pitched poorly.

  290. Cameron Says:

    Not saying Greinke is a bad pitcher, but I’m saying he did have a bad year. His stuff was there, it was just all over the plate. This year, he was hittable, everything he threw was fair game. Having the league’s worst defense and no bullpen hurts, but he drove nails into his own coffin just as much.

  291. Chuck Says:

    And let’s not forget the last ten Little League World Series champions were better defensive teams than the Royals.

    It still cracks me up that the Royals considered the signing of Mike Jacobs to be an upgrade.

  292. Cameron Says:

    Over Billy Butler’s glove, it might’ve been.

  293. Raul Says:

    Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto.

  294. Cameron Says:

    And Chuck, to be fair to Lee, Lee’s been pitching since 2002, Greinke since 2004. Greinke was out for most of ‘06 and spent ‘07 in the bullpen.

    Greinke’s actual ERA and just about all his rates are better. Lee gives up less walks, but Zack’s got the edge in about everything else.

  295. Chuck Says:

    Which are kinda the reasons why his ERA+ is higher, no?

  296. Chuck Says:

    I never believed Cliff Lee would sign with the Yankees.

    Go ahead and check, John.

    I also don’t believe the Royals will trade Greinke.

    It’s just something else for Rosenthal and Olney and their fellow douchebags something to talk about on slow days.

  297. John Says:

    “I never believed Cliff Lee would sign with the Yankees.

    Go ahead and check, John.”

    err…I haven’t seen any official announcements one way or the other.

    “I also don’t believe the Royals will trade Greinke.”

    I’m with you on this. The Royals have an outside shot at something this year, and a definite shot at the playoffs in 2012. Greinke is under contract until then. The Royals are stocked with prospects and don’t really need any more. Unless the Yankees offer Cano, Hughes, and Swisher…Greinke’s staying put.

    “It’s just something else for Rosenthal and Olney and their fellow douchebags something to talk about on slow days.”

    These and other sportswriters are OBSESSED with the notion that the other 28 teams exist to fuel the Yankee-Red Sox rivalry (kind of like the KC A’s in the 1950’s). As if there’s no possible chance that, no, there’s no possible chance that these teams want to ever compete.

    “Zach Greinke’s career ERA+ is better than Cliff Lee’s.

    Just sayin’..”

    He would also be a better guy to pick up for a long-term deal because of his age. I just don’t know that Greinke’s the better pitcher right now, going into 2011 and, as we all know, the Yankees have no problems with locking someone up for 7 years to get two good ones.

    Based off 3-year averages, Lee sits at a 142 ERA+, 1.122 WHIP, and has averaged 222 IP, coming out to just over 7 innings a start. Greinke is at a 133 ERA+, 1.194 WHIP and 217 IP, coming out to about 6 2/3 innings per start (but an extra 2 starts a year – not trivial).

    Ranking those seasons individually, Greinke’s 09 is the best (one of the top 15 seasons in the post-expansion era). Lee’s 08 is next, followed by his 09 and 10. Then come Greinke’s 08 and 10.

    I’d rather have Lee in 2011. But any year after that, give me Zack.

  298. Raul Says:

    I think people make a good point in saying that Cliff Lee’s margin for error is a lot smaller than Zack Greinke’s.

    Lee is 2 or 3 MPH from being Javier Vazquez…or Jeff Suppan.

  299. Bob Says:

    The average salary was over 3million bucks for the 912 players who were on rosters before the September call-ups.

  300. Raul Says:

    Meaning Jeter’s still overpaid by about 12-13 million?

    Thanks Bob.

  301. Bob Says:

    The Rangers re-signed Matt Treanor.

  302. Chuck Says:

    “err…I haven’t seen any official announcements one way or the other.”

    Honestly….

    If it was about just the money, he would have signed already.

    He’s looking for reasons NOT to go to New York.

    I’m sorry, but Cliff Lee’s not that good. He was 12-9 this year for crissakes. He sure as shit ain’t worth $25 million a season.

    I get he’s by far the best pitcher available but that doesn’t mean you have to overpay for him by ten million a season.

    If the Yankees sign a 33 year old pitcher to a guaranteed seven year deal with full no trade rights they’re fucking stupid.

    I’d offer him three years, $50 million, take it or leave it.

  303. Chuck Says:

    Treanor’s a good guy to have around, he’ll make a good coach or manager someday.

    He also has an extremely hot wife, which probably helps.

  304. John Says:

    “He was 12-9 this year for crissakes.”

    1) That means nothing. Felix Hernandez was 13-12.

    2) Even if it did, he was 22-3 a couple years ago, which is one of the highest winning percentages in any season ever.

    “If the Yankees sign a 33 year old pitcher to a guaranteed seven year deal with full no trade rights they’re fucking stupid.”

    Dude, they ARE TRYING to do just that. They ARE fucking stupid. They’ve made an offer of that timespan and magnitude.

    “Honestly….

    If it was about just the money, he would have signed already.”

    Honestly…

    if it were just about signing close to home and making moonshine or whatever, he would’ve signed with Texas already.

    I mean, you may very well be right. Just saying, nothing’s set in stone yet.

  305. Chuck Says:

    How much does Hernandez make, John?

  306. John Says:

    a) He makes 16 million a year.

    b) It doesn’t matter. He was the best pitcher in the league last year. Didn’t matter if he was 13-12 or 29-3. He was the best. If he were a FA, I would offer him Lee’s deal in a heartbeat.

  307. Bob Says:

    The A’s signed Matsui

  308. brautigan Says:

    Chuck asked: “How much does Hernandez make, John?” Chuck, your question should have clearly been: “How old is Hernandez, and how old is Lee?”

    Hint: Hernandez is more than 8 years younger. And John, Hernandez made 10,000,000 last year. I think he gets $12 million next year.

    Anyone gives Lee a long contract, might as well start calling him “Kevin Brown”.

  309. Chuck Says:

    John, the whole point is Hernandez makes far less than Lee, and is a much better pitcher.

  310. John Says:

    I agree completely Chuck. I would pay Lee’s contract to Felix Hernandez just for his DNA to make my own King Felix.

    But his goodness has nothing to do with his record is all I’m saying.

    Braut,

    Felix will average 16M a year over the length of his current deal; that’s what I meant. I guess it’s back-loaded, which makes sense.

    A Lee-Brown comparison is fairly apt…but at least Kevin Brown was phenomenal for three of those seven years. No way Lee is that good for more than 2.

  311. Cameron Says:

    Wow Chuck, 3 for 50? I wouldn’t even offer him 3 for 40. That’s pretty ballsy.

  312. Cameron Says:

    Huh, turns out that mystery third team in the Lee bidding does exist. Philly wants him back.

  313. John Says:

    Fantastic.

    In 2016, the Phillies will pay two men with a combined age of 73 a combined 50 million dollars.

  314. Cameron Says:

    Yes… But you have to admit Cliff Lee doesn’t make a bad #4 starter. It’s a win for Philly (sorta) and a win for snarky bastards like us who love to blast Amaro’s dumbass moves.

  315. Cameron Says:

    Well holy shit, the Phillies did it. Lee told Texas and New York both to go fuck off and he went with Philly’s offer. I don’t see any figures thrown out yet, but Lee’s made his choice.

    Chuck, you can breathe your sigh of relief now.

  316. Cameron Says:

    And bad contracts or not, you have to admit that Philly has by far one of the the most stacked rotations in baseball now.

    Halladay
    Hamels
    Oswalt
    Lee
    Blanton/Kendrick/Ham Sandwich

    Seriously, any warm body will make that rotation still kick ass. Shit, I think San Francisco just got beat.

  317. Chuck Says:

    “Chuck, you can breathe your sigh of relief now.”

    I’m halfway through a bottle of Don Q.

  318. Raul Says:

    The Phillies are a good team. They just got a little bit better.
    Now we’ll see how much worse they’ll be in 2014.

  319. Cameron Says:

    Utley, Howard, Rollins, Halladay, Lee, and Oswalt should still be worth draft picks at the end of their contracts. So they may suck, but they could be the new Royals with that kind of restocking.

  320. Raul Says:

    None of those guys will be worth draft picks at the end of their careers because the Phillies will never offer them arbitration to begin with.

  321. Cameron Says:

    Wow… You know how Lee was holding out for a seventh year from New York and Texas?

    Philly offered him five and he accepted. 5 years, 120 million. I crunched that, and that’s an average of 24 million a year for the next five years.

    I’m kind torn because they’re REALLY overpaying him, but they’re also off the hook a hell of a lot sooner.

    I guess the main thing was Lee really liked playing for the Phillies in 09 and wanted to come back when they gave him the chance.

  322. Raul Says:

    I should have said “at the end of their contracts”.
    Not careers, but whatever.

    Good of the Phillies to not give him 6 or 7 years.
    But I still say this is the Winter of Overpaid Players.

    I guess the most “reasonable” contract was the one they gave Paul Konerko. And that only looks good because of the comparison.

    According to Cots, these are the potential Free Agents after the 2011 season:
    http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/04/potential-free-agents-for-2012.html

  323. Cameron Says:

    That and a sizeable chunk if backloaded and deferred. Dude’s gonna be making money for a while off that deal. I didn’t see Paulie going anywhere else. Only 3 players have a Captain’s logo on their jersey and all 3 of them got resigned this year.

  324. Lefty33 Says:

    “Utley, Howard, Rollins, Halladay, Lee, and Oswalt should still be worth draft picks at the end of their contracts.”

    Rollins is a FA after this year and unless he has a monster year the Phillies will not resign him or even really offer him anything for 2012. He has no value.

    Good enough D coupled with being 33 and having no plate discipline, an upper cut swing with warning track power and a low OBP/BA.

    Howard’s contract is so large and unless many people have it wrong, his only market will be to an AL team to DH. Even then how many teams are going to handle 25 million a year. (Also the Phillies until now have had a policy that they don’t eat contracts either. So don’t expect them to trade Howard and eat part of his deal just to move him.)

    Oswalt is likely the odd man out as he is under contract this year and like last year the Astros are paying the majority of his salary so the Phillies are getting Roy Oswalt at Joe Blanton prices.

    There is an option next year where either Oswalt can opt out and walk with a reduced buy out or the Phillies can opt out and pay him 2 million instead of finally paying the full freight of 16 million.

    If anyone on this list will get moved before much longer to me it’s Utley.

    He’s showing signs of physically breaking down and the Phillies would be wise and try to move him while he has value instead of waiting for his hip problems to resurface and then get stuck with a 33 or 34 year old second baseman that is making 15 a year.

  325. Lefty33 Says:

    The current rumor has Blanton being sent to Boston.

    http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/14/the-red-sox-are-close-to-getting-joe-blanton-from-philly/

  326. Raul Says:

    All that happening, I still think if the Marlins would spend just a little bit of money, they could win that division.

  327. Jim Says:

    Too much money for Lee still but the years are better. The Phils are looking to make a serious run over the next few years with the current core and to hell with 2014.

    I don’t get the Blanton to Boston talk, unless they have a deal in place for Dice-K

  328. Lefty33 Says:

    “All that happening, I still think if the Marlins would spend just a little bit of money, they could win that division.”

    Wait until 2012 when the new building opens.

    It then becomes put up or shut up time for Loria.

  329. Cameron Says:

    Florida was trying to get in on Greinke. Does that count, Raul?

  330. Bob Says:

    The Yankees get Russell Martin.

  331. raul Says:

    I guess it sort of counts. Except that Greinke would sort of deplete the Marlins system.

  332. raul Says:

    Bob,
    I guess that means Cervelli or Montero is on the move.

  333. John Says:

    Maybe the Yankees could just stick with what they’ve got. I mean, last year they won 95 games with less than characteristic performances from most of their players.

    Just because they lost a single best of 7 series doesn’t mean shit.

    In the playoffs, all bets are off as far as the odds go. It’s a short series and anything can happen. Chad Ogea can beat Kevin Brown…twice. It happens. This is a team with all the tools to win.

    I might go out and get a better #3/4 starter. Like, an actual number 3/4 starter, not someone I have to commit a big multi-year deal to. And I’d sign a reasonable back-up infielder – like a Craig Counsell type guy – because there’s A-Rod and probably Jeter will need days off (or, Jeter will just be not that good).

    Instead, the Yankees are in freak-out mode. They are LUCKY that they didn’t have to burden themselves with Lee’s contract. They should chill out, count their blessings, and maybe sign Bill Hall or something to a 1y/3M deal.

  334. Cameron Says:

    They have a number 3 starter. His name is AJ Burnett. He pitches like a number 17 starter.

  335. Bob Says:

    Actually, John I expect the performances of Jeter and ARod to decline even more. Gardner and Granderson are the non-pitching key guys for them this year.

  336. Chuck Says:

    Bobby Jenks to the Red Sox, two years, $12 million TOTAL?

    WTF?

    Makes one wonder if Paplebon is on his way out of town?

  337. John Says:

    Jason Werth hit his 1st HR of the season today.

    M-V-P?

  338. Cameron Says:

    If Albert Pujols’ arm gets caught in a wheat thresher, sure. Why not?

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