Weighing Innings and Pitch Counts Against Optimal Development

by Chuck

Authors Note: This article was published originally at NYBaseballDigest.

This article isn’t meant to be a comparison between two or three specifc players, but as an exercise in how certain organizations go about the process of developing their top prospects to become major leaguers.

Much has been said and written over the past few years regarding the Yankees’ philosophy (or lack thereof) on how they handle young pitchers. The two examples which stand out above the rest are the “Joba Rules” situation and the handling of 18 game winner Phil Hughes during the second half of last season. Even as recently as two weeks ago, the Yanks’ bypassed AAA hurlers Adam Warren and D.J. Mitchell and went outside the organization to pick up a thirty-two year old journeyman for two emergency starts.

Another team known for developing young players, the Atlanta Braves, have used top prospects Mike Minor, Brandon Beachy and Julio Teheran for twenty starts to date, and a fourth, Craig Kimbrel, is their regular closer.

On the other side of the coin are the Yankees Eastern Division rivals, the Tampa Bay Rays. Pundits wil say it’s easy to develop young talent when you have the first pick in the draft every year, although I think Andrew Brackman might not agree.

The thing is, though, is you can’t build a successful team just on first rounders. Since their first draft in 1996 (and not counting this year) the Rays have selected sixteen players in the first or supplemental round and have drafted five pitchers with only one, Wade Townsend, failing to reach the major leagues.

By contrast, the Yankees have had twenty-two picks in the same timeframe and selected twelve pitchers, four of whom haven’t made the major leagues. (Gerrit Cole is not counted as he didn’t sign).

The most successful of these selections in terms of what he’s done for the Yankees is Chamberlain; three others have had more success, Mark Prior, Eric Milton and Ian Kennedy, unfortunately they were wearing another team’s uniform while doing so.

Which brings us to the career paths so far of Manny Banuelos and Matt Moore.

The selection of Banuelos was obviously intentional, the choice of Moore is due to the number of surprising commonalities he has with Manny.

They are similar in ages (Moore is nineteen months older). Both are lefthanded. Banuelos was a cheap free agent signee, Moore was a cheap ($115K) eighth round pick.

Moore came from the 2007 draft and despite 20 Rookie League innings, his first full season as a pro was 2008. Banuelos signed in March, 2008, making it his first full pro season as well.

Both are currently in their fouth full seasons as professional baseball players.

To date, Moore has made 89 appearances with 84 starts and has pitched 439 innings, an average of five innings per appearance. Over his last year and a half though, as he’s maturing and progressing into a potential major leaguer, he’s averaged almost six innings per appearance.

In the same timeframe, Banuelos has made 70 appearances with 54 starts and 294.2 innings. an average of four and two thirds per. He’s made more relief appearances than Moore, so just counting his starts his average should be close to what Moore has done.

Over the last year and a half Banuelos has made 32 starts and pitched 143.2 innings, an average of four and a half innings per start.

So, while Moore’s innings per appearance has gone up by almost an inning, Banuelos’ average has actually gone DOWN.

Isn’t the point to develop young pitchers by increasing their innings and pitch counts?

To see this maybe through a different pair of eyes one should consider the progression of Dodger’s lefthander Clayton Kershaw.

Kershaw was a higher pick and received a higher bonus than either Moore or Banuelos, but he also made his Major League debut at the age of 20. If you look at their career minor league progression at the same point in their careers, Kershaw’s numbers were almost indentical to Manny’s. Kershaw’s numbers are a bit better all-round, but like Moore, as he progressed his innings per appearance went up, which is how things are supposed to work.

(Numbers through the 2010 season)

Adding insult to injury for Yankee fans; on June 16th, Moore pitched a complete game no-hitter against Mobile, throwing 116 pitches and striking out eleven.

In the Yankees system, he gets pulled after five due to pitch count.

Pitchers get hurt because they don’t throw enough. Enforcing pitch counts or innings limits hinders their development.

I don’t like Banuelos; I don’t like his stuff or his consistency or his size. If he reaches his ceiling, he’s a number three starter. If he hits the floor, he’s a LOOGY. Best case scenario for him is as a possible replacement for Mo as the Yankees closer.

At some point over the next couple of years or so, Moore will compete for the number two spot in the rotation with Jeremy Hellickson behind David Price.

The reason why is he will have been prepared as a minor leaguer; he will be stretched out as he progresses through the system, he will be given the opportunity to develop his stuff and learn how to pitch instead of just throw.

Anyone can pitch out of a first and third jam in the fourth inning, what makes a major leaguer is being able to do it in seventh or eighth inning.

How can you learn if you never see the seventh?

Brian Cashman called Dellin Betances the Yankees’ best pitching prospect since he’s been in the organization. Even if you discount his elbow injury, Betances is in his fifth season as a pro, and is averaging five innings per start as a twenty three year old in Double A.

It’s not right.

343 Responses to “Weighing Innings and Pitch Counts Against Optimal Development”

  1. Raul Says:

    Given the money and power the Yankees can wield, for them not to be constantly producing the best talent from within their farm system is a disgrace. With their resources and track record, I don’t feel it’s hyperbolic to state that the Yankees are among the worst, if not THE WORST at developing talent.

  2. Chuck Says:

    When I posted this on NYBD, this guy commented with the defense the Yanks were taking it easy with Banuelos because he had an appendectomy.

    In spring training.

    That just shows the overall ignorance of the defenders who will say just about anything except admit the failings in their organization.

    This isn’t a Yankee limited problem either.

    The Red Sox’ system is worse than the Yanks’, yet people believe if Gonzalez or Youkilis or Pedroia got hurt the season would go on without missing a beat.

    News flash;

    It won’t.

    Why sign JC Romero?

    If he’s that good, why not call up Banuelos and give him the job, the same way the Yanks did with Joba a couple of years ago?

    Don’t listen to the media Keith Law/Olney/Rosenthall bullshit.

    When the Yanks have two All-Stars on their AAA team and they go outside the organization for a AAA pitcher, well, not hard to figure out.

  3. Raul Says:

    I agree.

    The Yankees are telling the world they’re going to marry Betances and going to bed at night with JC Romero.

    It’s not adding up.

  4. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Red Sox’ system is worse than the Yanks’, yet people believe if Gonzalez or Youkilis or Pedroia got hurt the season would go on without missing a beat.”

    I would say they could lose one of those guys and still most likely make the playoffs. All three? Well, my guess is that they would win 86-89 games, based on the other two times they got absolutely shellacked by injuries.

  5. JohnBowen Says:

    As far as the Yankees go? I’m actually with Chuck in how it’ll end up. Colon, Garcia, and even Nova have way over-performed so far, and I think they’ll regress significantly.

    The Yankees are currently leading the WC by 4.5 games over Tampa and LA and are 1.5 games out of first.

    That they’ve been that good thus far is largely a function of the rotation which won’t stay this good outside of CC.

    So then it becomes a question of whether or not they can out-slug their opponents, and I generally side with the better pitching teams.

    It’ll be close but I’d give the edge to Tampa or LA (but not Cleveland)

  6. Cameron Says:

    Jose Reyes has said he won’t negotiate a contract extension in-season with them.

    …It seems that now holds true for only the Mets. If he gets traded, he’ll consider it. Talk about your star player kicking the team in the nuts.

  7. Chuck Says:

    I read an interesting story yesterday, one I’m sure will give John a boner.

    It criticizes Sandy Alderson while he was with Oakland.

    In the days leading up to the draft, the A’s had decided on a college bat, and had settled on one player.

    They were confident he would be available with the fifth pick, so much so that during the NCAA tournament they actually stopped scouting everyone else.

    When draft day came, Alderson, who had the final vote, overruled the scouting and PD department and selected pitcher Ariel Prieto, who pretty much sucked and was done as a major leaguer in 2001.

    The player Alderson passed on?

    Todd Helton.

  8. Cameron Says:

    You can pretty much pull one of those stories for every GM, but that’s a pretty memorable screwup.

    Though the entire league passing up Albert Pujols 8 or 9 times each is a borderline farce. While he nver projected as this, I’ve known people who’ve been around Pujols since he played high school ball in Independence (a 15 minute drive from my house) and community college ball in Kansas City.

    Last year, a junior college player was taken first overall and his best season won’t compare to Pujols’ worst.

  9. Chuck Says:

    Pujols is pretty much once in a lifetime, so not a fair comparison.

    It’s like Piazza going in the sixtieth whatever round.

    Total fluke.

    Harper, on the other hand, will be a bust of monumental proportions and will likely end up as the poster child for draft reform if it’s not overhauled in this CBA.

  10. Cameron Says:

    It’s true, but he wasn’t really a ninth-tenth round talent. He wasn’t a first rounder, but if you’re looking for an athletic JuCo position player with a good bat, he was your guy. If he was in this latest draft, he’d compare to… I dunno, I’d say most fifth rounders.

    I think a major problem is he went to high school and junior college in the midwest. Regions like the west coast and Florida with year-round baseball get scouted more heavily. Nothing wrong with that, but you get to overlook kids in the midwest by not devoting as much time to programs in other parts of the country.

  11. Raul Says:

    I think this year some kid went in the first round — and he was from Montana or something.

    I think the Mets took him. Pretty sure they’re gonna regret that choice.

  12. Chuck Says:

    Three weeks ago, the Pirates were four games out and a game below .500.

    Today, they are one game out and four games over .500.

    Three weeks ago, the Pirates shipped Pedro Alvarez to AAA.

    Coincidence?

  13. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Chuck

    Also, Bubba Starling has enrolled in classes with Nebraska. Not sure what that means — if anything at all — for the Kansas City Royals.

  14. Chuck Says:

    Rays called up Jake McGee yesterday.

    Chances Kyle Farnsworth has a job in three weeks?

  15. Cameron Says:

    Called up McGee again you mean? I know he had a September stint with Tampa. As for Farnsworth, tough to say. From what I’ve heard he’s actually been serviceable in Tampa. There’s a bunch of scrubs in that bullpen, Kyle’s probably not the first one to go.

    And he just enrolled, it doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll attend. Dayton isn’t going to go easy on him. That signing bonus could go as high as seven million dollars, and Starling would REALLY have to like Nebraska to say no.

    …But here’s the thing, Starling’s a terrible football prospect. Going to Nebraska’s a dumbass move for the kid. He’s a rush-first quarterback, and the only guy to do that successfully was Michael Vick. Okay, Vick finally learned how to throw accurate passes last season, but c’mon, do you really think Starling’s as good as Michael Vick? He’s got a good baseball arm, but he’s shaky on the gridiron at best. I watched his football videos to see how decent he was, so to judge the threat level of going to Nebraska vs. the Royals.

    Wanna know what I think? He reminds me of Rhett Bomar. He can hurl, but he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn with a football.

  16. Chuck Says:

    Sometimes I wonder about you, Cameron.

    Starling was the sixth rated prep QB in the country.

    He can throw a football 50 yards in the air…from his knees.

    He’s not the best QB recruit at Nebraska which means he’ll probably red-shirt, which is the real reason he’s not going.

    Well, one of about seven million, but you get the gist.

  17. JohnBowen Says:

    “I read an interesting story yesterday, one I’m sure will give John a boner.
    It criticizes Sandy Alderson while he was with Oakland.”

    Alderson is an incredible, HOF GM.

    He took over the Athletics during a down period, and using a combination of players in the system from before he took over and players he drafted and signed, he built a team that regularly made the playoffs before payroll cuts from cheapass ownership made it so that his players left and his team entered another down period.

    Sound familiar?

    And, as the Helton thing shows, not every single thing Alderson has done has been fucking gold.

    Doesn’t change the fact that he’s an outstanding GM.

  18. JohnBowen Says:

    K-Rod did ultimately agree to waive his option.

    He waived his option, so he becomes a FA at the end of the year for what Ken Rosenthal described as “minimal compensation.”

    Sounds to me like Boras noticed that the option wouldn’t kick in unless Axford got hurt/imploded Turnbow style. So, he decided his best hope would be to waive the option and see if that convinced the Brewers to let him close.

    I think there’s also another thing here though. Boras just became K-Rod’s agent; the commission on K-Rod’s 17.5 million dollar option wouldn’t go to Boras, it would go to K-Rod’s last guy. Boras wanted an extra year of youth for Rodriguez before negotiating his next contract, thus making that contract more lucrative for Boras…even if K-Rod would ultimately see less overall money without the option.

    Not that it was going to kick in anyway. Axford was going to get almost all the save chances, and my bet is that he still will.

    But at least this way, the option won’t be hanging over Ron Roenicke’s head.

  19. Raul Says:

    Colon was beatdown yesterday.
    Garcia getting smacked today.

  20. Raul Says:

    In the 5 games since Bryce Harper was promoted to AA, he’s 5 for 17 with five singles .294/.333/.294.

    Today he’s 0-3 with 2 strikeouts against Drew Pomeranz, lowering his average to .250.

    Pomeranz struck out 5 batters in his 4.1 innings tonight allowing just 1 run on a homer by CFer Archie Gilbert.

  21. Chuck Says:

    Harper ended up 0-4 with three K’s and is now hitting .234 with seven K’s in 21 AB’s and has struck out seven times in his last nine at bat.

    Reality check.

  22. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, it doesn’t matter how far you can throw a ball, but if you can hit a target with one. I refer you again to Rhett Bomar. The kid has a cannon, but he can’t hit shit. He can’t win the starting job in Minnesota.

    Besides, a lot of people thought Cam Newton was the best QB prospect a little while ago. I thought he sucked too. To be fair, the thing I don’t like most about Starling and Newton is the fact they’re both rush-first QBs. That doesn’t work at the NFL leve.

  23. Cameron Says:

    “I think there’s also another thing here though. Boras just became K-Rod’s agent; the commission on K-Rod’s 17.5 million dollar option wouldn’t go to Boras, it would go to K-Rod’s last guy. Boras wanted an extra year of youth for Rodriguez before negotiating his next contract, thus making that contract more lucrative for Boras…even if K-Rod would ultimately see less overall money without the option.”

    Scott Boras you money-grubbing whore.

  24. Raul Says:

    If you’re going to be a whore, the money-grubbing kind is the kind to be.

  25. JohnBowen Says:

    “Harper ended up 0-4 with three K’s and is now hitting .234 with seven K’s in 21 AB’s and has struck out seven times in his last nine at bat.
    Reality check.”

    Bryce Harper thus becomes the first player to have a string of five games that weren’t good in the history of baseball at any level.

  26. Bob Says:

    Raul, the player the Mets selected in the first round, Brandon Nimmo, hails from Wyoming, not Montana.

  27. Cameron Says:

    When you’re recruiting a kid from American Legion ball in a state with no high school baseball program, you need to ask if they’re just taking a huge gamble or they’re that fucked for cash.

    Good question. The answer is yes.

  28. Bob Says:

    Actually, from what I have read, it was a decent pick. The Red Sox, with a sizable cash flow were looking at him.

  29. Cameron Says:

    A decent pick, but a desperation pick. He was being looked at as a possible supplemental rounder.

  30. Chuck Says:

    “K-Rod did ultimately agree to waive his option. He waived his option, so he becomes a FA at the end of the year for what Ken Rosenthal described as “minimal compensation.”

    Yep. Three point five million.

  31. Chuck Says:

    “Bryce Harper thus becomes the first player to have a string of five games that weren’t good in the history of baseball at any level.”

    Bleacher Report on line one.

  32. Chuck Says:

    “Scouts scout tools, not stats”

    Nimmo was projected anywhere from late first to early second, so anywhere between #30 to #50.

    Going #13 isn’t that big a jump.

    He had a dual, full ride scholarship to play both football and baseball at Washington State, so despite his lack of on-field experience, it’s clear he didn’t suck.

    I read at least one comment from a scout who likes him better than Harper.

    To each his own.

  33. JohnBowen Says:

    “Yep. Three point five million.”

    Actually 4. 3.5M was the original buyout, and he was going to see that much regardless.

    So really, the Brewers paid $500,000 for greater flexibility with K-Rod. If nothing else, a sweet insurance policy if Axford had gotten hurt, and it’s just one less thing for Roenicke to deal with.

    “Bleacher Report on line one.”

    ?

  34. Chuck Says:

    Jesus Montero returned from his two week vacation on the DL yesterday and went 1-5 with three strikeouts.

    Memo to Brian Cashman.

    Stop fucking playing him. Every time he puts on a uniform his trade value goes down.

  35. Cameron Says:

    True, Nimmo going thirteenth isn’t that big a surprise to a team on a budget crunch. If he fell to Tampa, he probably would’ve been their first pick, or one of (hard to pick between Mahtook and Nimmo), but I still call it a budget-driven signing. They want a kid they can sign, not the best pick on the board.

  36. Cameron Says:

    Guys, I think I have a problem. I’m eating barbecue sauce on hot dogs. Not hot dogs off the grill that cost anything, no. Cheap Bar S hot dogs I fixed in the microwave. It’s insane what you’ll put sauce on when you have a good sauce.

    Though Famous Dave’s is starting to wear on me. I’ve been having thinner sauces with more kick recently. I know it’s not anything special, but I think I’ll pick up some KC Masterpiece next time I go to the store. Something nice and rich.

  37. JohnBowen Says:

    Hahaha, when did I become your health consultant?

  38. Chuck Says:

    Guys, I think I have a problem.”

    “Cheap Bar S hot dogs I fixed in the microwave.”

    And you think your problem is the BBQ sauce?

    :)

  39. Cameron Says:

    >> Hey, I live off food stamps. I can’t afford to be choosy.

  40. Raul Says:

    That Nimmo went 13th but Sonny Gray and Matt Barnes went 18th and 19th was a surprise to me.

  41. Chuck Says:

    “Hey, I live off food stamps. I can’t afford to be choosy.”

    Do you own a frying pan?

  42. JohnBowen Says:

    Haha.

    Only Chuck would respond with that question.

  43. Chuck Says:

    When you draft a player higher than he should go, it really doesn’t have anything to do with money, because you’re paying him more than he’s worth, even if he takes less than slot.

    When guys fall it’s because teams don’t think he’s worth slot.

    Cito Culver was a fourth or fifth rounder the Yanks took in the first round last year.

    He signed for $954K, which was about $700K more than he should have gotten.

    If he’s not Jeter’s replacement in three years, he was a bad pick.

  44. JohnBowen Says:

    Orioles gave JJ Hardy a 3-year extension.

    Guess they didn’t want to find another temporary placeholder for Machado.

    Figure he’s around 2 years away, but got a third year to be safe?

  45. Chuck Says:

    “Figure he’s around 2 years away, but got a third year to be safe?”

    If Machado is ready, Hardy goes to third.

    Reynolds will be long gone by then.

  46. JohnBowen Says:

    “He signed for $954K, which was about $700K more than he should have gotten.”

    Every time I go to Radio Shack, the credit card machine asks me if I want to donate a dollar to Livestrong, and my reaction is always, ya sure, why the fuck not.

    I had a feeling that’s what 700K is like for the Yankees organization.

    A few years ago they picked up Richie Sexson for like a month and paid him like a million dollars.

  47. JohnBowen Says:

    “Reynolds will be long gone by then.”

    Mark Reynolds should team up with Kevin Kouzmanoff.

    Get one of those fancy CIA disguises so that one could look like the other.

    Kouuuz can play third and Reynolds can hit.

    Split the paychecks.

    Might make for an average every day player.

  48. Cameron Says:

    Yes, Reynolds can hit. …Below the Mendoza Line.

  49. Chuck Says:

    Marlins up 8-0 on the Cubs in the fifth, knocked out Zambrano.

    Stanton has two homers, the first almost cleared the bleachers and left the park.

    In right-center.

    The announcer says, “you don’t often see a left-hander hit the ball to that spot.”

  50. Cameron Says:

    You don’t often see a guy who can hit like Mike Stanton, either. The kid’s so fun to watch. Great at the plate (and making better contact than I anticipated) and he’s great in the field, too.

    When the Marlins become the Miami Marlins next season, they’re raising payroll because of increased revenue and fan interest. Land Shark Stadium (or whatever it’s called now) isn’t a great baseball field, but there’s interest there. If they do it, they could give extensions to their players instead of free agents.

    Stanton, Sanchez, Morrison, (later) Dominguez, all those guys would be locked up in addition to pitchers like Johnson and Nolasco.

    The Marlins are gonna contend soon enough. But the NL East is becoming an INSANELY tough division. Philly’s still riding high, Atlanta’s in the early stages of another renaissance, Washington’s finally living up to it’s potential, and New York…

    Well, every family needs a black sheep.

  51. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Cameron #48

    JJ Hardy has actually done well this season.

    I had high hopes for the Orioles but it doesn’t look good for this year. Matusz and Britton should bounce back, but I’ve given up on the Matt Wieters hype.

  52. Cameron Says:

    I’m not saying Wieters will be the best catcher in the league any time soon at this point… But I still see the potential in him. He’s solving his contact problem and making decent enough contact. Once he puts the barrel on the ball and gets the power we saw coming, he’ll be good.

    He’s only 25, I still give him 3 years before making a full judgement. Most position players seem to have their best seasons around age 28.

  53. Chuck Says:

    The Marlins new stadium will have the smallest seating capacity in MLB.

    So, the amount of fans who go to their games won’t change, it’ll just look like it on TV.

  54. Chuck Says:

    I’m with Cameron on Wieters.

    Kind of early to give up on a catcher.

    I understand if you’re sitting behind the dugout and someone lines a foul into the stands how easy it is to get hurt if you’re not paying attention.

    Aramis Ramirez just lined a three run bomb and hit a lady right in the kidney..knocked her out.

    Are you fucking blind?

  55. Cameron Says:

    There’s money coming in. I’m not sure if it’s through advertising or naming rights or whatever it is, but the Marlins’ plan is next season is going to see their budget increase drastically.

    Whatever it is, they’ll start spending. Not high-end range, but probably a typical Royals-esque $50-75MM, which is about double to triple their average operating budget.

    Seriously, you wanna credit Billy Beane for playing economically? Look at the shit Michael Hill does on a $22MM budget. That’s about $900K a player and he can pull 90 win teams out of his ass.

  56. Cameron Says:

    Worse, she’s a Cubs fan.

  57. Chuck Says:

    Stanton’s up..looking for number three.

    Single to left.

  58. Chuck Says:

    A couple of Royals scouts have been following Yankee minor leaguers in AA and AAA the last few days.

    Someone suggested there is a trade brewing which will send Wilson Betemit to New York to fill in for ARod.

    (Puking sounds)

  59. Cameron Says:

    Hate to break it to you, but outside of Betances there isn’t a single prospect in the Yankees system that I’m interested in as a trade piece.

  60. Cameron Says:

    And with our starting pitching depth (which will include Jeremy Jeffress, most likely by next year), we’ll have the balls to make him the reliever you’re too afraid to admit he is.

  61. Chuck Says:

    Sorry, Cam, but Jeffress is a reliever, now and forever.

    If anyone is moving, it’s Aaron Crow.

  62. Chuck Says:

    If, and it’s a big if, Betances gets his mechanics straightened out, he’s the next JR Richard.

    Banuelos is the next Boone Logan.

  63. Cameron Says:

    They’re stretching Jeffress, though. Not saying he’ll crack the rotation because it’s that deep, but he’s an option. I like that out of him, I always thought he could be a potential starter. Crow’s not like Jeffress, it’s a matter of when and not if.

    And JR Richard? That’s high praise for anyone. I don’t think I’d draw that comparison to any minor league out there. The best comparison I saw was when I saw Shelby Miller pitch the Futures Game and saw shades of Roy Halladay with that sinker he pounds the strike zone with.

    …And I don’t know what comparison to draw for Jared Cosart, but he’s a star, too.

  64. Raul Says:

    Yankees win!

    …although mostly because Sabathia went 8 innings and Rivera closed it out.
    That might be the only way the Yankees win in the 2nd half: Sabathia bypasses the bullpen and hands it off to Mariano.

  65. JohnBowen Says:

    “The announcer says, “you don’t often see a left-hander hit the ball to that spot.””

    LOL

    What’s wrong with Matt Wieters? Dude’s a catcher putting up very solid numbers. He’s not the Jack Bauer that all those websites said he’d be, but what prospect ever is?

    I’ll take .265/.324/.417 from a good defensive catcher any day.

    Actually, I’d settle for even less than that.

  66. Raul Says:

    Just saw the highlight of Stanton’s 2 homers.
    I just can’t get over the sound of the bat when he makes contact.

    That 1st homer? That thing was 4 rows away from leaving the park…which was what? Another 15 feet?

  67. Raul Says:

    ….Matt Wieters was supposed to be Mike Piazza.

  68. JohnBowen Says:

    @67

    That never happens.

    Besides, Wieters can play defense.

  69. Raul Says:

    Ok.
    But it’s one thing if you’re billed as Walter Johnson and you’re Mike Mussina.

    It’s another if it turns out that you’re Bronson Arroyo.

  70. JohnBowen Says:

    He’s 25. He’s been in the league like 2 days. And he’s already an all-star.

    Besides, who was billing him this way?

    Exactly.

  71. Chuck Says:

    I saw Wieters compared to Mauer and Sandy Alomar Jr just because of his height, but I never saw him compared to Piazza.

    Not saying he wasn’t, I just never saw it.

  72. Cameron Says:

    Most of the baseball press before he made his debut, if you recall. Dude had more hype than you could believe.

  73. Raul Says:

    I’m pretty sure that a catcher who was the Number ONE prospect was expected to slug better than .417.

  74. Chuck Says:

    So, not a bad last four or five starts from Sabathia.

    Pretty big turnaround from his first dozen or so.

    Must be pitching for his next contract.

    His new favorite song is Huey Lewis’ “I love LA”

  75. Chuck Says:

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=524968

    Oh, wait, we’re still talking about Wieters, aren’t we?

  76. Raul Says:

    LOL

    Ok, Chuck. But Wieters is slugging .400 in the majors.
    Montero is slugging .400 in AAA and hasn’t hit so much as a double to Left Field….probably ever.

  77. JohnBowen Says:

    Whatever.

    Just don’t be shocked if Moustakas doesn’t hit .330/.420/.637 to win the 2013 MVP award.

  78. Raul Says:

    Nobody can slug .637 while playing in Kansas City.
    You’d have a better chance of giving Nina Hartley a real orgasm.

  79. Chuck Says:

    “Just don’t be shocked if Moustakas doesn’t hit .330/.420/.637 to win the 2013 MVP award.”

    And I’ll suck your dick in Times Square at rush hour.

  80. JohnBowen Says:

    “And I’ll suck your dick in Times Square at rush hour.”

    Man, someday someone’s gonna hold you to that crap.

  81. Cameron Says:

    While I love Moose, he won’t slug more than about /550 in KC unless his road stats look like Carlos Gonzalez’s home stats last year.

  82. Cameron Says:

    People are saying that since Mike Adams is under team control next season, he has more value than Heath Bell on the trade market.

    Philly’s been looking heavily into Heath Bell lately. Five bucks if Bell goes to Philly, he’s under team control for longer than the end of October. There’s no one else in that bullpen with enough talent Bell has in his shadow. MAYBE Bastardo on his best day, but they’re fucked in that back end.

  83. Chuck Says:

    You know where to find me, John

  84. Chuck Says:

    Heath Bell is going to St. Louis for Colby Rasmus.

  85. Raul Says:

    No man.
    I need Salas to keep closing for my fantasy team.
    This is bullshit.

  86. Cameron Says:

    I won’t count the chickens before they’re hatched here, but I could buy that. St. Louis needs a closer and San Diego needs to build it’s young core. But Rasmus has really dropped off. Is it a fair trade? I dunno, I wonder what kind of Rasmus we’ll see. Especially in San Diego.

  87. Chuck Says:

    The trade makes sense..the Cards need a closer, and the Cards want Rasmus out of town.

    Will it happen?

    Probably not, but it’s the only Bell trade rumor I’ve seen that justifies repeating.

  88. Cameron Says:

    Want Rasmus out of town, and might fare better with Jay in that lineup instead of Rasmus, give them a legitimate leadoff hitter. I’m gonna follow the scouts and say a trade-and-extend to Philly for some low-level prospects (it’s a closer, Cosart and Singleton are safe).

  89. Cameron Says:

    And now the Brewers are talking to us about trading for Betemit. Man, I get to piss everybody off today.

  90. Raul Says:

    Your boy, Bobby Abreu currently has the following slash stats: .278/.398/.366.

    Average? Good.
    OBP? Good.
    Slugging? Dude, you’re 6 feet, 220 pounds.

    What the fack?

  91. Cameron Says:

    No one’s expecting him to be a middle of the order hitter anymore, but how do you have an OBP higher than your SLG? I’ve never seen that one before.

  92. JohnBowen Says:

    Colby Rasmus is the Anti-McCutchen in CF.

    And the Padres want to bring him over to their giant fucking stadium with 106 hectacres of outfield ground and have Rasumus run shit down?

    Or are they going to move in to one of the corner OF spots and stick with Maybin?

    Or, since this season is shot anyway, try to flip Rasmus?

  93. Raul Says:

    And the Mets smacked the Phillies and Cole Hamels today enroute to a 11-2 score.

    Daniel Murphy is hitting a respectable .312/.351/.446. I suppose that’s not what you want from a 1B but I thought Murphy played 2nd base a few years ago? Those numbers would play well there.

  94. JohnBowen Says:

    “No one’s expecting him to be a middle of the order hitter anymore, but how do you have an OBP higher than your SLG? I’ve never seen that one before”

    Not hitting HR or doubles, but still walking a lot. Hell, Abreu had EIGHT straight seasons with 100 or more walks. And back in those days, he was fast. Actually, he’s still 13/16 this year. Wouldn’t have guessed that.

    Is Abreu supposed to be my boy? At least I don’t think he’s a HOFer lol.

  95. Cameron Says:

    Hey John, you wanna hear some good news about the Wilson Betemit rumors?

    He’s a better shortstop than Yuniesky Betancourt.

  96. JohnBowen Says:

    “And the Mets smacked the Phillies and Cole Hamels today enroute to a 11-2 score.”

    Well that settles it. Cole Hamels is terrible at baseball and should be cut.

    “Daniel Murphy is hitting a respectable .312/.351/.446. I suppose that’s not what you want from a 1B but I thought Murphy played 2nd base a few years ago? Those numbers would play well there.”

    I dunno, that seems a little below average for an MLB 1B but for 400 grand, he’s a bargain over there. What’s Ike Davis doing these days?

  97. Raul Says:

    (Tony Kornheiser)

    DEFEND YOUR BOY!

  98. Cameron Says:

    I think Ike Davis is on the DL, which is why Murphy is playing first and not utility.

  99. JohnBowen Says:

    @95

    Betemit? How much SS has he played? I mean, McGehee has sucked this year at 3B, but he’s at least shown the ability to be good. Yuni’s Yuni. I can’t grasp how no action has been taken to get him out of the lineup yet.

  100. Chuck Says:

    The Mets tried to make Murphy a second baseman in the AFL a couple of years ago.

    Watching him reminded me of the Bob Uecker line when he described trying to catch Phil Niekro.

    “I just waited for the ball to stop rolling and picked it up.”

  101. Cameron Says:

    He’s showed some SS time in Chicago, I think. He was blocked in New York by Jeter and KC by Escobar.

    …But dude, it’s Yuniesky Betancourt. You could set up a basketball hoop on the basepath and catch more balls.

  102. Raul Says:

    Who says hate can’t bring people together?

    John and Cameron’s hate of Yuniesky Betancourt is the most unifying thing I’ve ever seen on Dugout Central.

  103. Chuck Says:

    Oh, shit.

    A friend just texted and said the Yanks are interested in Luke Hochevar, and the Royals will talk only if they take Betemit’s contract with him.

    This is going to be an interesting two weeks.

  104. JohnBowen Says:

    HAHAHA @97

    Uh…he’s 37.

    I dunno, he hit 20 HR and slugged .435 last year.

    You don’t expect him to be an MVP candidate, but 3 HR? All year? From your DH?

    That’s no good.

    The .390 OBP is fantastic, but for 9 million dollars to only DH, you should have some pop.

  105. Raul Says:

    I’m saying….Luke Hochevar can be a pretty damn good pitcher if someone could just fix him and get his mechanics to be more consistent.

    Well….on second thought…maybe I should put that on Hochevar and not the coaching staff.

    But the thought of Betemit in NY does make me sick. It’s too bad Eric Chavez got hurt.

  106. Cameron Says:

    As a hitter, he’s doing good. He’s getting on base and scoring runs. While not a prototypical DH, he IS productive. He’s only DHing because… Well, look at that outfield. Necessary evil.

    And Hochevar to the Yankees? …Chuck, you’re about to learn what Hochevar is like first hand. He’s lights out for about four or five innings and then the home run derby begins. It’ll be fun to watch when my team isn’t giving up the runs anymore. Taking him and Betemit off my hands?

    GO YANKEES!

  107. Chuck Says:

    You know, some people should have to pass a test before being allowed to post on blogs.

    I’m reading this thread on River Ave. Blues and some guy speculated on the Royals scouts in Scranton and said something like,

    “Maybe the Yanks should get Alex Gordon to fill in for ARod, then move him to the OF next year and not pick up Swisher’s option.”

    I would seriously get arrested if I responded to him.

  108. JohnBowen Says:

    “A friend just texted and said the Yanks are interested in Luke Hochevar, and the Royals will talk only if they take Betemit’s contract with him.”

    Yeah, I heard Betemit is locked into a team-binding 7 year, 136 million dollar deal, so I can see why the Royals want to unload that shit.

    Wait. 1 year, 1 million? Are the Royals painting their seats or something? What do they need the extra 400 grand for?

    “John and Cameron’s hate of Yuniesky Betancourt is the most unifying thing I’ve ever seen on Dugout Central.”

    LOL

    Chuck and I unified against Shaun over Jason Kendall.

    Then we became best friends forever and always respected each other’s opinions.

    :D

  109. Cameron Says:

    @102

    You don’t know how much he truly sucks until he’s put on your team’s uniform. Even when he plays well he still fucks something up.

    Want proof? His hot streak at the end of 2008 cost the Mariners Stephen Strasburg.

  110. Raul Says:

    Yeah

    Because the Yankees can just say “Hey, give me Alex Gordon, you fucking asshole” and Dayton Moore will just do it.

  111. Chuck Says:

    ” It’s too bad Eric Chavez got hurt.”

    Three times.

    He got hurt twice playing in rehab games.

    He’s back now, I think, but a couple of weeks away from New York, at least.

    He’s certainly lived up to his reputation, hasn’t he?

    And I thought Andruw Jones was the worst move of the off-season.

    He does suck, but at least he’s playing.

  112. Cameron Says:

    He’s still been healthier than Nick Johnson. And for less pay, too.

  113. Chuck Says:

    (blushing)

  114. JohnBowen Says:

    Since the start of 2010, Wilson Betemit is hitting .292/.364/.471 for a 130 OPS+ in roughly a full season’s worth of at-bats.

    Betancourt is hitting .000/.000/.000 for a -100 OPS+. That’s right. He’s never had a hit. Fucking ever. He also has a range factor of -1 per game. That means he doesn’t make any plays on his own, and distracts Rickie Weeks with his dick tatoo once a game to prevent Weeks from making a play.

    I’ll take Betemit.

  115. JohnBowen Says:

    “Because the Yankees can just say “Hey, give me Alex Gordon, you fucking asshole” and Dayton Moore will just do it.”

    I think that’s how most Yankee fans think the league works.

    This past off-season, I remember a fan post that was like “yeah, the Yankees should just trade a couple of guys and get Michael Young…that way he can sub-in at third and SS once a week to give ARod and Jeter a break.”

  116. Chuck Says:

    My cable carrier is having a free weekend of MLB Extra Innings, so I’m watching the Royals/Twins game.

    I turned it on during a commercial break, and can tell already it’s the Twins station.

    Camping supplies.

    Fishing equipment.

    Bert Blyleven Day.

  117. Cameron Says:

    Yuni is the kind of dumbass who would get his dick tattooed.

    …Seriously, can you think of anything more painful that people voluntarily put themselves through? I mean… WHY!?

  118. Chuck Says:

    Carl Pavano for the Twins.

    Between Gordon, Hosmer, and Moose…two homers, five hits.

    Write it down.

  119. JohnBowen Says:

    I’ll write it down, but I won’t suck your dick if you’re right.

  120. Chuck Says:

    Cam,

    Some people are so desperate to have someone else fondle their junk other than themselves.

    Don’t knock it til you try it.

  121. Cameron Says:

    At this point, all we have to do is wait for the pitching to catch up to the hitting. While not everyone is great, we’ve got the “gather enough pitchers and throw ‘em at the wall, something’s gotta stick” approach.

  122. Cameron Says:

    Having someone else fondle your junk? I can totally get behind that… Believe me, I can really get behind that.

    But if you as me if you can repeatedly jam a needle into it for over an hour? I’ve gotta say fuck you sideways with a rusty screwdriver.

  123. Chuck Says:

    “I’ll write it down, but I won’t suck your dick if you’re right.”

    Damn, and with all the practice you Navy guys have?

    I see how you are now.

  124. Chuck Says:

    Awwwwwwwwwwwwww

    Pavano just hung a changeup to Gordon and he rolled over on it to second.

    First pitch, too.

    Just because you were looking for it, doesn’t mean you have to swing at it.

  125. Cameron Says:

    Gordon’s a lot more relaxed at the plate this season. That means he’s not overthinking ABs and looking for the perfect pitch and he’s doing better.

    On the other hand, being too relaxed leads you to screwups like that.

  126. Chuck Says:

    Chris Getz.

    Why is Chris Getz playing everyday?

    AND leading off?

    It’s like playing with an eight man lineup.

  127. Cameron Says:

    Getz is fairly competent. But the reson he’s playing everyday is having an Escobar-to-Getz combo. That middle infield eats groundballs. I’ll eat his bat for that glove.

  128. Chuck Says:

    You watching the game?

    That glove just cost the Royals a run.

  129. JohnBowen Says:

    LOL @123

    You know what they say about the submarine service…

    130 people go down.

    65 couples come up.

  130. Cameron Says:

    Not every play can be magic, Chuck. He’s been good this year. Not really with the lumber, but with the leather.

  131. Cameron Says:

    Seems your boy Jason Repko’s in the field tonight, Chuck.

  132. Chuck Says:

    Who the hell is Jason Repko?

    Didn’t he use to play for the Dodgers?

    He’s still playing?

  133. Cameron Says:

    Yep. I thought you scouted Repko.

  134. Chuck Says:

    No

  135. Chuck Says:

    That Nishioka kid the Twins signed from Japan couldn’t hit the ground if he fell off a building.

    I was watching last night against Soria and he was swinging late on changeups.

    He’s more Kaz Matsui than Hideki Matsui.

  136. Chuck Says:

    Haha..Escobar just took Pavano deep.

  137. Cameron Says:

    Escboar? Alcides Escobar? Alcides allergic to outfield walls Escobar?

    God damn that’s embarrassing.

  138. Lefty33 Says:

    “You know, some people should have to pass a test before being allowed to post on blogs.”

    Wouldn’t that wipe Bleacher Report off the internet Chuck?

  139. Raul Says:

    Bleacher Report is nothing but a bunch of stupid, bullshit lists.

    Top 5 this…
    Top 10 that…

    When Buzz Bissinger was shitting on Deadspin and other blog sites for being shitty excuses for journalism, I’m pretty sure Bleacher Report was exactly what he had in mind.

  140. Raul Says:

    Motherbitch, I just saw an article on bleacher report that said Lee Smith should be in the Hall of Fame.

    Kill me now.

  141. Lefty33 Says:

    “I just saw an article on bleacher report that said Lee Smith should be in the Hall of Fame.”

    Which one of the 17 a year that get written did you see?

  142. Lefty33 Says:

    “Bleacher Report is nothing but a bunch of stupid, bullshit lists”

    True but: Just when I think I’m out… it pulls me back in.

    Chuck, John, and I post over there and it’s good site for different reasons than here.

  143. John Says:

    Yeah, I publish most of my DC articles over on Bleacher Report.

    It’s cool for getting read. Even my articles usually get around 400-500 reads, which is extremely low. For some reason, my All-Star article got like 2000. Not sure what the deal is there.

    There’s like 18000 posters over there. A lot of them do write stupid shit but it’s such a big site that you’re bound to get that.

    The great thing about DC is there’s like 6 of us and our opinions aren’t regirgitated from Mike & Mike. Higher overall quality of discussion.

  144. John Says:

    Gordon, Hosmer, and Moose got 1 hit and no hr.

    Sorry Chuck :D

  145. Cameron Says:

    And those of us who haven’t followed the game for nearly as long have the sense enough to balance out the lack of knowledge with bad attempts at comedy.

    …Man, I hate myself.

  146. Cameron Says:

    And the Yankees’ self-entitlement continues. When talking to Colorado about Ubaldo Jiminez, it was noted that the Rockies like Jesus Montero (odd since they have Willin Roasrio), but the Yankees don’t want to include Banuelos, Betances, or Nova in any potential package.

    Are you seriously telling me they think they can pull a staright Jiminez-Montero swap? Why does anyone pick up the phone when they see Cashman calling anymore?

  147. Raul Says:

    The Rockies are holding on to 2010 if they think Ubaldo Jimenez is worth Montero AND Betances.

    Montero and Nova? Meh. Sure.

  148. Chuck Says:

    “Wouldn’t that wipe Bleacher Report off the internet Chuck?”

    LOL..definitely.

    “True but: Just when I think I’m out… it pulls me back in.”

    Yeah, me too, although the site changes they made a couple of weeks ago don’t suit me and I haven’t been there is a week or so. Maybe I finally have them out of my system.

    “Chuck, John, and I post over there and it’s good site for different reasons than here.”

    True. What I like most about the site is the ability to discuss other sports from time to time. Still not quality writing by any means, but it’s good to see the opinion of others without having to go to four or five different sites.

    “And those of us who haven’t followed the game for nearly as long have the sense enough to balance out the lack of knowledge with bad attempts at comedy.”

    Here’s a tip. Stop reading MLBTR.

    I’ve heard the Jimenez rumors too.

    Throw something against the wall and see if it sticks.

    I stopped reading when I saw this; “The Rockies apparently like Montero as a first baseman.”

    OK.

    The Rockies are still in it..why would they trade their best pitcher, who is still under team control for two more seasons, for a couple of minor leaguers?

    Makes no sense.

    Therefore, it shouldn’t be repeated, unless you’re playing “Go Fish” in Ken Rosenthal’s basement.

  149. Cameron Says:

    I dunno. Betances and Montero have been so fucked by that development system you guys have that I’d laugh you out of the building if you offered them for Jeff Francouer at this point.

    And Jiminez, when he’s on, is one of the best in the league. But his velocity and control have dropped. While he was never good enough to maintain 2010’s first half throughout a season, he can be a true elite pitcher if he gets his shit together. He’s only 26, there’s still plenty of room for growth.

  150. Cameron Says:

    To be fair, I read MLBTR for the bad rumors. Like Brian Cashman thinking he can get away with a Montero-for-Jiminez swap. It’s great for a laugh.

  151. Chuck Says:

    “Like Brian Cashman thinking he can get away with a Montero-for-Jiminez swap. It’s great for a laugh.”

    He doesn’t.

    The douchebag who “thinks” he does.

    Big difference.

    Cameron walks into a car dealership and pays sticker.

    Then goes and brags to his buddies he was only there a half hour.

    Betances and Montero is paying sticker.

    Just Montero is a helluva fucking deal.

  152. Chuck Says:

    OK, so here’s the thing.

    Sabathia has four years left on his contract at $23 million per, which is $92 mil total.

    He wants Cliff Lee’s deal, which is five years, $120 mil, or $24 mil per.

    Sabathia turns 31 on July 21, Lee turns 33 on August 30th.

    Assuming the Phillies pick up Lee’s $27 million option in 2016, he’ll be a free agent again at age 38.

    Assuming CC does NOT take advantage of his opt out, he’ll be a free agent again in his age 35 season.

    I’m not a big fan of either, but if I’m a GM I have to believe Lee will be more effective at 35 than Sabathia will, so CC’s mindset is to take the opt out now, and see if he can get a six year deal, which will take him to his age 38 season as well.

    The money isn’t even worth mentioning, a million a season is chump change compared to the overall yearly value of their respective contracts.

    So, at least to me, Sabathia’s only concern with the opt out isn’t money, but years.

    The Yanks are already committed to paying $27 million a year to a forty year old DH in five or six years, how smart can it be to pay $25 a year to their fifth starter?

    If I’m Cashman, I call CC’s agent and tell him if he opts out, he’s pitched his last game in a Yankee uniform.

    It’s just not worth the risk to add two more years to his deal, regardless of the money.

  153. Raul Says:

    If the Yankees could get any one of their prospects to pitch more than 4 fucking innings, Sabathia opting out wouldn’t even be worth discussing.

    “Sure. Go. We’ve got 3 guys to take your place.”

  154. John Says:

    If the Yankees really wanna let CC get away, Red Sox nation won’t complain.

    AJ Burnett, staff ace?

    If you can pay Jeter till he’s 40 to sell jerseys, you can pay CC to continue being a top-5 pitcher in the league year in and year out.

  155. Lefty33 Says:

    “It’s cool for getting read. Even my articles usually get around 400-500 reads, which is extremely low. For some reason, my All-Star article got like 2000. Not sure what the deal is there.”

    Almost anything AS game, HOF, or Roid related will get eyeballs on that site.

    Figure out an article that puts all three together and you too will get a titanium ribbon!

  156. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, you could use that money you’d give CC to hire a new rotation. There’s a good starting crop.

    CJ Wilson
    Mark Buerhle
    Edwin Jackson
    Hiroki Kuroda
    Brad Penny
    Joel Piniero
    Dontrelle Willis

    While none of them are really great, you could plug up that back three rotationwise and probably pay them less than what CC was gonna make. Keep in mind, this was just outright free agent. When you include denied options, Chris Carpenter gets thrown into that mix, too.

    Wilson, Kuroda, and Jackson could make a decent rotation along with Burnett and Hughes.

  157. Raul Says:

    The Yankees don’t have anyone that interests the Braves but I’d love to see Tim Hudson in a NY uniform.

  158. Cameron Says:

    With his contract and age, I can’t help but feel that wouldn’t be a good move. Getting Jiminez, a guy that’s cost-controlled until 2013 would be a better option. On the other hand, that team control is making him a tough trade because of the high price.

    Given the state of your prospects, unload the broken pitchers on a trade for someone like Jiminez and hit free agency hard.

  159. John Says:

    lol @ titanium ribbon

    “As evidenced by all his ASG appearances, Mark McGwire should be in the HOF despite roiding.”

    I hate the articles that rank sleezeballs and least popular players. They’re like he was good, but he was sleezy! Um, how? Also, who cares?

  160. Cameron Says:

    “As evidenced by all his ASG appearances, Alex Rodriguez should be in the HOF despite roiding.”

    Fixed to increase traffic flow.

  161. John Says:

    Line of the year: Jamey Carrol isn’t great, but he’s tied for the league lead in not being Yuniesky Betancourt”

  162. John Says:

    Also, someone on bleacher report was ranking the worst trades ever.

    They included the 1998 Randy Johnson trade as terrible for the Mariners.

    Areyoufuckingserious?

    The Mariners lost three months of a pitcher that was going to leave anyway, in a season that was shot. In exchange, they got Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama.

  163. Chuck Says:

    No, Raul’s “..we have three guys to take your place” in #153 is line of the year.

  164. John Says:

    …but you don’t have three guys to take your place.

    I mean, maybe three guys can have the same impact on the buffet.

  165. Raul Says:

    They don’t have 3 guys. That was my point. But if the Yankees had any clue how to develop pitchers, THEY WOULD HAVE 3 PITCHERS TO TAKE SABATHIA’S PLACE.

    In fact, they’d have a lot more than 3.

    The Braves and Royals have pitchers in the minor leagues that could probably fill the 2-through-5 slots of the Yankees rotation right now.

  166. Cameron Says:

    If they were ML ready by now, then why are they still in AA and AAA and we’re fielding fucknuts like Francis, Chen, O’Sullivan, Mazzaro, Hochevar, and Davies?

  167. Chuck Says:

    ” you can pay CC to continue being a top-5 pitcher in the league year in and year out.”

    Bus left and you missed it.

    “Also, someone on bleacher report was ranking the worst trades ever.”

    I saw that.

    The Johnson trade was flippin’ awesome :)

    The guy who wrote the article is a “Featured Columnist” and didn’t know Cliff Lee and Grady Sizemore went to the Indians in the same trade for Bartolo Colon “until I did the research for this article.”

    How could you NOT know that?

    He also wrote a series of articles at Sports Nickel ranking the all time players by position.

    Now, THAT is some entertaining reading.

    http://sportsnickel.com/2010/07/16/mlbs-greatest-players-by-position/

  168. Cameron Says:

    I checked part of it. He ranked Diceky and Cochrane high on the catchers and I’d swap Murray and Bagwell, but he wasn’t that bad.

    …Then I saw him rank Hornsby over Joe Morgan and left. Didn’t bother with the rest.

  169. Raul Says:

    At Cameron 166…because the Royals need to control those suckers for a few more years.

  170. Cameron Says:

    At this point, they’re well past super two status. You can’t use that as a substitute for the fact they’re greener than goose shit when it’s mid-July.

  171. Chuck Says:

    “Then I saw him rank Hornsby over Joe Morgan and left.”

    You don’t?!

  172. Cameron Says:

    There’s more to being a good player than hitting. Yeah he could hit .400, but that was in the 30s. Yuniesky Betancourt could hit .400 against those pitchers.

    Hornsby coudl hit, Morgan could do that and everything else. Not taking away from Rajah, but he’s not the best.

  173. John Says:

    Yeah…

    Maybe you go with Morgan for defense, but I think Hornsby is the historical consensus pick.

  174. Raul Says:

    That Joe Morgan is backed by Saberheads everywhere, and that Joe Morgan hates sabermetrics is poetic justice if I’ve ever seen it.

  175. Cameron Says:

    Look, I have a hard time giving anyone from Hornsby’s ear the “credit they deserve” because they were great hitters against laughably bad pitching. Pretty much the best guys from that era I can think of are Dean and Vance, whereas 30s hitters were great in spades.

    Between historical adjustment for the era and the fact Hornsby could hit but was a bad fielder whereas Morgan had average, power, plate discipline, glove, legs, good arm, and didn’t want to be chased out of town with flaming pitchforks by his teammates every day, it’s an easy pick for me.

    …But they’re both gigantic assholes nonetheless.

  176. John Says:

    Joe Morgan is an idiot.

    If he doesn’t appreciate his own greatness, not my problem.

  177. Raul Says:

    If I really wanted to be a dick, I could tell you that some of the fielding in Hornsby’s day was severely affected by some really really shitty fields and poorly cared-for baseballs.

    Morgan was getting perfect bounces all day son.

  178. Raul Says:

    Danny Espinosa has 17 homers thus far in his rookie season with Washington.

    Over/Under 17 homers for Bryce Harper in his rookie season?

  179. Cameron Says:

    True, but Hornsby was bad in comparison to his players, not to today’s. If I’m talking greatest hitting from second base, yes it’s Rajah. Not as an overall player though.

    And depends on when he gets called up. Full season? Over. Midseason? Under.

  180. Raul Says:

    I wish you guys would just come out and say what you think the equivalent is today of players in the 20s and 30s.

    Pretty tired of people taking shots at these guys like “they played against shitty competition, so Hornsby hitting nine fucking hundred isn’t as impressive as a guy hitting .330″ or some shit.

  181. John Says:

    How do you know Cam? Did you see him play?

    Hornsby’s dWar is actually positive.

    The anecdotes were that he didn’t care much about fielding, not so much that he sucked.

  182. Raul Says:

    Especially considering how you guys were making excuses for that fat fuck Prince Fielder about his slowness and fatness and shit defense because he hits 40 bombs a year.

  183. John Says:

    Yeah, because those 40 bombs and high obp and high slugging make up for the 1 ball every three weeks that gets by him.

  184. Raul Says:

    And the like 50 point career difference in OPS+ doesn’t mean shit for Rogers Hornsby tho….

    Fantastical.

  185. John Says:

    Um, I think Hornsby’s better than Morgan.

  186. Chuck Says:

    “And those of us who haven’t followed the game for nearly as long have the sense enough to balance out the lack of knowledge with bad attempts at comedy.”

    **Reads subsequent Hornsby comments**

    Pretty much nailed it, Cam.

  187. Chuck Says:

    Interesting….

    Apparently, Colorado’s sudden interest in trading Jimenez stems from his whining and complaining over the their seeming unwillingness to sign him long-term, as they have done with Tulowitzki and Gonzalez.

    Although Jimenez and his agent both have denied it, Jon Heyman’s column today points to contrary evidence.

    Heyman says there have been numerous conversations between the two teams and “no specific players have been discussed”, then in the next sentence says the Rockies asked for Montero, Banuelos, Betances and Nova.

    The Yanks are willing to trade Montero (duh), but not the other three, and the Rockies, for some reason, like Montero as a potential replacement for Todd Helton.

    I suppose it makes sense, I mean, you can essentially be a tub of goo with the range of a corpse and play first base as long as you hit forty bombs a year.

    Right, Raul? :)

  188. Cameron Says:

    In between having to eat Helton’s salary and Tulo and CarGo, there’s about 60 million right there. I can see why Ubaldo isn’t getting signed long term. Colorado’s not exactly a $100MM dollar team year in and out. If they signed Ublado to something similar, they’d be forced to shoestring the rest of the team.

  189. John Says:

    “I suppose it makes sense, I mean, you can essentially be a tub of goo with the range of a corpse and play first base as long as you hit forty bombs a year.”

    Which Montero never will.

  190. Raul Says:

    In Colorado? He’ll hit 9 or 10 away homers. But in Colorado…you can bet Montero will use his Jetarian swing to hit 45 bombs every year. Guaran-fucking-teed.

  191. Raul Says:

    Harrisburg 9
    Akron 4
    Bottom of the 6th.

    Bryce Harper 0-2 with 1 walk, 1 strikeout.

  192. Raul Says:

    Manny Banuelos took the loss today.

    He went 5 innings, allowing 5 hits, 5 walks and 3 runs while striking out 6.

    Reading beat Trenton 4-3.

  193. JohnBowen Says:

    The last person to hit 40+ HR while playing for Colorado was Todd Helton.

    In 2001.

    Since then, no one.

    The humidor reduced HR’s in Coors Field significantly.

    Coors Field is the most hitter-friendly park in the majors still because it gives up a roughly average number of HR while it’s size allows for a ton of balls to drop in that would otherwise be caught.

    If you took Coors Field and moved it to, say, San Diego, it would favor pitchers because of how precious few HR it would give up.

    What was I saying again?

    Oh yeah

    Jesus Montero wouldn’t in his fucking wildest dreams hit 40 HR at Coors Field.

  194. Chuck Says:

    “Which Montero never will.”

    You’re right, John.

    “In Colorado? He’ll hit 9 or 10 away homers. But in Colorado…you can bet Montero will use his Jetarian swing to hit 45 bombs every year. Guaran-fucking-teed.”

    Nope.

    Harper skipped a level…he went from Low A to Double A.

    The Nats are having big-time problems with their High A team in Potomac..stadium issues, management issues, they didn’t want to put Harper in such a volatile situation.

    Banuelos’ ceiling is as Mariano’s replacement..his floor is Kei Igawa.

    Everytime the Yankees sign a midget lefty he automatically gets compared to Ron Guidry or Whitey Ford.

    How many Ford’s and Guidry’s have there actually been in ML history?

    Not many.

    Unfair comparison, and it’s not Banuelos’ fault, but he doesn’t have the talent or ability to live up to either of them.

  195. Cameron Says:

    His bat is so allergic to the outfield fence, he couldn’t hit a home run in Great American Ballpark if they moved the fences 200 feet in.

  196. Chuck Says:

    “The humidor reduced HR’s in Coors Field significantly.”

    Yeah, that’s it John.

    Have you written you letter to Santa yet?

  197. Cameron Says:

    I thought Potomac was getting their new stadium next year.

  198. Chuck Says:

    “I thought Potomac was getting their new stadium next year.”

    So are the Marlins.

    Doesn’t help them much this year though, does it?

  199. JohnBowen Says:

    “Yeah, that’s it John.
    Have you written you letter to Santa yet?”

    The Rockies started using the humidor in 2002, before steroid testing kicked in.

    2001 Rockies
    Todd Helton: 49
    Larry Walker: 38

    2002 Rockies
    Todd Helton: 30
    Larry Walker: 26

    Not a coincidence.

  200. Cameron Says:

    Point taken. I was just wondering if the sadium thing was going to be a temporary problem like Miami’s or an ongoing problem like Oakland or Tampa’s.

  201. Chuck Says:

    “Not a coincidence.”

    Helton 2001: 49 homers, 27 home, 22 road, 55% at home.

    Walker 2001: 38 homers, 20 home, 18 road, 53% at home

    Rockies team 2001: 213 homers, 124 home, 89 road, 58% at home.

    Helton 2002: 30 homers, 18 home, 12 road, SIXTY percent at home

    Walker 2002: 26 homers, 18 home, 8 road, SIXTY NINE percent at home.

    Rockies 2002 team: 152 homers, 97 home, 55 road, SIXTY FOUR PERCENT at home.

    Humidor had jack shit to do with it.

    Bleacher Report on line one.

  202. Cameron Says:

    The MLB drug code was established in, what, ‘03 or ‘04, right? Unless they were paranoid about that coming up in the next CBA, and I mean collectively paranoid, I’ll call humidor.

  203. JohnBowen Says:

    “Humidor had jack shit to do with it.”

    Ok Chuck.

    Keep denying common fucking knowledge.

    And basic rules of physics.

    I guess Dante Bichette must have been an all-time great or something.

    Yeah, that’s believable.

  204. JohnBowen Says:

    Actually, I’m going to go ahead and guess that Chuck has no idea what a humidor does.

  205. JohnBowen Says:

    Coors Field Park Factor pre-humidor:

    129
    123
    122
    121
    127
    125
    122

    Average of about 124

    Park Factors since the humidor:

    116
    115
    113
    112
    109
    107
    109
    112
    117

    Average of about 112

    So, pre-humidor Coors Field made the average hitter look like Bernie Williams
    Post-humidor, that hitter was Gene Richards.

  206. Chuck Says:

    And I’m going to guess John doesn’t understand basic percentages.

    If the Rockies hit the same amount of homers in 02 and Helton and Walker’s home totals and percentages changed, then, yes, you could make an argument the humidor played a part.

    The Rockies TEAM total changed more than either Helton or Walker’s individual totals, yet their home percentages went up.

    Seriously?

    The Dbacks installed a humidor before the 2010 season.

    Both their season totals, home totals and home percentages went up.

    Humidor my ass.

  207. JohnBowen Says:

    Before the humidor was installed, guys like Dante Bichette and Vinny Castilla were hitting 40 HR a year like clockwork.

    No Rockie has hit 40 since its installation.

    Not even good legitimately good hitters, like Holliday.

  208. JohnBowen Says:

    From 1995-2001, the Rockies averaged 63% of their HR at home.
    From 2002-2010, the Rockies averaged 57% of their HR at home.

    Ok.

    Less significant than I thought.

  209. John Says:

    Great pitcher’s duel in Tampa.

    Josh Beckett gave up an infield hit in the first.

    Then nothing for the next 7 ip.

    Sox have just three hits.

    Bottom of the ninth, 1 out, 0-0 game, Bard on the mound.

  210. John Says:

    Damon grabs a hit. First one since the first for the Rays.

    Damon with a stolen base. 2-0 to Zobrist.

  211. John Says:

    Zobrist took a tough curve ball for the walk.

    K-zone said it caught the lower outside corner.

    It also hit the dirt.

    Like I said, nasty nasty pitch.

    Extras!

  212. Chuck Says:

    In 2001, National League teams combined for 2952 homers.

    In 2002, the total was 2595.

    The Rockies hit 61 fewer homers between 2001 and 2002.

    They hit 29 fewer at home.

    Again, humidor my ass.

    I think MLB figured something wasn’t right after 2001, and while steriod testing may not have been in place per se, the rumors may have been strong enough where players were getting nervous.

    That, or they could have softened up the balls a little.

    Or the 2001 summer was more humid than normal in Colorado.

    The humidor adds moisture to the ball..there is no humidity at higher elevations like Denver and Phoenix, so it’s like playing with the same ball used in every other park.

    Maybe the humidor was responsible for a difference of ten homers all year.

    For the team.

  213. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok.

    So that’s all pretty convincing. After all, we’re looking at a difference of 6% which comes out to around 10 HR a year.

    My question: why have we not had a Dante Bichette-like player in Colorado since 2001?

    You know, a shitty excuse for a ballplayer who puts up just ridiculous numbers at home and turns into fucking David Eckstein on the road.

    I mean, even CarGo hit .290 on the road last year.

  214. JohnBowen Says:

    Streaker in the Boston-Tampa game.

  215. JohnBowen Says:

    That’s always funny.

  216. Chuck Says:

    Well, that sure was one of the more entertaining half innings I’ve seen in awhile.

    Boston loads the bases with no outs and doesn’t score.

    Tampa uses four pitchers.

    Joe Maddon and acting manager Dave Martinez get ejected arguing different plays.

  217. JohnBowen Says:

    This is good shit.

    Red Sox load the bases in the top of the 11th.

    Next two batters strike out.

    Marco Scutaro then pops the ball up behind home plate.

    In his frustration, he hucks the bat at the ground.

    The bat rochot’s near where Kelly Shoppach was trying to make the catch.

    He still got it, but the Rays were livid. Acting manager Dave Martinez (same guy who was a player? Looked way different..) got thrown out for arguing about it.

    Maddon had just been thrown out earlier in the inning arguing a check-swing that was called a ball on Reddick way after the fact (Reddick had struck out, so it didn’t even matter).

  218. JohnBowen Says:

    @216, absolutely.

  219. Chuck Says:

    “Streaker in the Boston-Tampa game.”

    In Yankee Stadium, there’s actually a jail/holding cell off the home dugout. I would imagine most teams have one, but this is the only one I’ve actually seen.

    (No, not as a guest).

    You run on the field, you get a ticket for public intoxication or disturbing the peace, but sit in the cell until the game is over.

    And act as target practice for the cops.

    John Doe needs practice using his taser? Well, we got us a volunteer!

    Jim Bob is practicing his baton moves or martial arts techniques?

    Hopefully you’re not dumb enough to run out in the third inning.

  220. Lefty33 Says:

    “He still got it, but the Rays were livid. Acting manager Dave Martinez (same guy who was a player? Looked way different..) got thrown out for arguing about it.”

    Who became the acting-acting manager after that?

  221. JohnBowen Says:

    Not sure, he hasn’t really had to do anything.

    Sox go down 1-2-3 in the 12th.

  222. Lefty33 Says:

    “Everytime the Yankees sign a midget lefty he automatically gets compared to Ron Guidry or Whitey Ford.”

    You should write the article on Bleacher Report about the Yankees propensity to sign midget lefties and how J.C. Romero and Banuelos are the new Guidry and Ford.

  223. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok, this is hilarious:

    The color commentators are Bobby Valentine and Orel Hershiser.

    The play-by-play guy looks in the stands and he says “oh look there’s him. Just kidding.”

    Valentine: “I can’t imagine doing anything like that.”

  224. Lefty33 Says:

    “Valentine: “I can’t imagine doing anything like that.””

    As the camera shows Bobby with his Groucho Marx glasses and mustache.

  225. Chuck Says:

    “You should write the article on Bleacher Report about the Yankees propensity to sign midget lefties and how J.C. Romero and Banuelos are the new Guidry and Ford.”

    Only problem with that is most of the people on Bleacher Report never heard of Ron Guidry or Whitey Ford.

  226. Chuck Says:

    Whoa..Tim Kirkjian AND Buster Olney are covering the game?

    Normally, hair pulling, ass grabbing, tit fondling chick fights are a turn on, but, strangely enough, the thought of those two going at it doesn’t do anything for me.

  227. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok, so this is good:

    Tim Wakefield isn’t available, because he already flew into Baltimore.

  228. JohnBowen Says:

    LOL @ 226

    I’ve never really minded Kirkjian.

    Olney’s a douche.

  229. JohnBowen Says:

    Hickey is the Rays acting manager.

  230. JohnBowen Says:

    Here’s a pretty typical article:

    “http://bleacherreport.com/articles/765211-new-york-yankees-10-biggest-questions-for-the-second-half”

    Yeah, so why don’t the Yankees just get Alfonso Soriano and his team-murdering .300 OBP and his 54 million dollars that he’s owed through 2014 and have him DH instead of Posada. I mean, as soon as Soriano dons pinstripes, he’s gonna play like it’s 2002, right?

  231. Lefty33 Says:

    I don’t mind Timmy either.

    Although sometimes on Mike & Mike he’ll quote a stat or two that are so out there and Saber-ish it would make Shaun pant like a dog in heat.

  232. Lefty33 Says:

    “Hickey is the Rays acting manager”

    Jim Hickey, wow.

    That’s a guy I’ve……….never heard of before.

  233. Chuck Says:

    I’ve never met Olney, but he looks and acts like a tool.

    I did meet Kirkjian once after an AFL game, he’s a pretty cool guy. After the game, we went across the street to a sports bar and just drank beer and shot some pool. There was about six of us, weekday afternoon, not much going on.

    He didn’t “big league” any of us, and actually respected the fact we were in the same line of work that he was (just with much smaller paychecks).

    With a few beers in him, he’s fucking hilarious.

  234. JohnBowen Says:

    “Although sometimes on Mike & Mike he’ll quote a stat or two that are so out there and Saber-ish it would make Shaun pant like a dog in heat.”

    Waste of time.

    95% of Mike & Mike’s audience only understands buzzwords and soundbytes.

    “He knows how to win.”
    “He’s not a true Yankee.”

    etc…

  235. Lefty33 Says:

    “95% of Mike & Mike’s audience only understands buzzwords and soundbytes.”

    True but I give that show credit for one thing only.

    There is not a person in sports that matters that they cannot get on that show either as a guest host or for an interview.

    To me Cowherd is the bigger tool because outside of some football stuff, mostly college, he’s way too insulated from reality and clearly doesn’t spend enough time being involved with sports.

    He’s got his life story that’s being developed into a sitcom and he is supposedly big into house flipping.

  236. JohnBowen Says:

    “To me Cowherd is the bigger tool because outside of some football stuff, mostly college, he’s way too insulated from reality and clearly doesn’t spend enough time being involved with sports.”

    I consider myself well-versed enough in major league baseball and usually the NFL to call bad sportscasters out on their bullshit.

    Cowherd knows almost nothing about either sport.

    He said that Joey Votto didn’t deserve to be an all-star last year because he [Cowherd] had never heard of him.

    He said Aaron Rodgers “choked” in the playoffs last year. He threw 4 touchdown passes and led his offense to 45 points. That’s choking to Cowherd.

    He also insisted that that one kid on the Wizards will never make a team leader because he didn’t grow up with a father.

    He’s just an asshole

    15th.

    At least Aceves was efficient. 5 pitch inning.

    Doesn’t get much better than that.

  237. JohnBowen Says:

    Great running catch by Upton to rob Pedroia of extras.

  238. JohnBowen Says:

    Adrian Gonzalez just squared to bunt.

  239. JohnBowen Says:

    Aceves hits back-to-back batters.

    first and second, one out.

    Bottom of the 15th.

  240. Raul Says:

    I can’t believe this game is still going.

  241. Raul Says:

    Crap job by Ellsbury. You gotta get it deeper than that. (That’s what she said)

  242. JohnBowen Says:

    Finally a fucking run.

    Dustin Pedroia goes the other way for a base hit.

    Pedroia has 3 of the Sox 5 hits.

  243. Raul Says:

    Come on Tampa. Tie this sucker up.

    Let’s keep this pattern of back and forth going…especially after I saw Japan take it to the American women in the Womens World Cup today.

  244. JohnBowen Says:

    Good catch by Zobrist in RF.

    I don’t care if his WAR is 9.0 or 2.5, having a guy who can play two positions as well as he does is an incredibly valuable asset.

  245. JohnBowen Says:

    If this was like soccer, we would’ve had Ortiz, Gonzalez, Youkilis, and Pedroia square off against Longoria, Joyce, Zobrist, and Upton in a HR derby like 5 innings ago.

    What a lame sport.

  246. Raul Says:

    lol

    I love soccer.

  247. JohnBowen Says:

    So this is interesting.

    Papelbon is 20/21 in save opps.

    His ERA is over 4.

    That’s kinda weird.

  248. Raul Says:

    Bend but don’t break…I guess.

  249. JohnBowen Says:

    @246, to each their own.

    But I think it’s bullshit that the world championship of a sport can be decided by doing something that’s completely different from the sport they’ve been playing all along (not just saying that cuz the US lost, I’m actually pretty happy for Japan with the shit they’ve been through)

    Play more soccer. Make it sudden death, if not in the initial 30 minute period, at least afterwards. Add more substitutions.

    PK’s feels like such a cop-out way to determine a winner, after what admittedly was a pretty exciting game.

  250. Raul Says:

    It goes to penalty kicks only in tournaments and after 120 minutes of play…with almost no break time in between the extra periods.

    I can understand what you’re saying.
    But I think in some cases these games occur in extreme temperatures, hot and cold and it’s tough to ask these athletes to go longer than 120 minutes of running and kicking and jockeying for position. Soccer is actually a lot more grueling than people give it credit for.

    I really can’t tell you why they don’t allow more substitutions. I mean the rules differ from league to league and from tournament to tournament and things like friendlies. I don’t think it makes sense. That’s one aspect I can agree with.

  251. JohnBowen Says:

    Fitting end … terrific play by Gonzalez over at first.

    Papelbon has given up runs in 6 of his 21 saves for 7 earned runs overall in 21.1 IP.

    So that’s like 2.95 in his saves.

    He’s had 14 appearances that weren’t save opps. 13.1 IP, 10 earned runs.

    Interestingly, he leads the league in WPA for closers, suggesting that he’s been relatively clutch, although I’ve really got to look at that stat a little more closely. I wonder if you can backdoor your way into a higher WPA by creating a high-leverage situation where there shouldn’t be one.

  252. JohnBowen Says:

    “Soccer is actually a lot more grueling than people give it credit for.”

    Oh, I agree. You’re running up and down a huge-ass field, just 3 substitutions, 90-120 minutes and like you said, hardly any time between periods.

    Honestly, I would just allow unlimited substitutions. It seems like it would make the game faster and more exciting with fresh players and you wouldn’t get this bullcrap way to end it.

    But, that’s probably just like if a European dude suggesting that baseball be played with 5 guys to a side or something.

  253. Chuck Says:

    So, did the Rays game end yet?

    I crashed after the 13th…

  254. Raul Says:

    Speaking of that asking price, Rockies GM Dan O’Dowd tells Troy Renck of the Denver Post that the Rockies would have to be “absolutely overwhelmed” to move Jimenez. “It would have to be a Herschel Walkerdeal,” O’Dowd added, referring to the 1989 NFL trade that earned the nickname “The Great Train Robbery.”

    Sick of this garbage. Have to be overwhelmed? For Ubaldo Jimenez?
    No. You’d have to be overwhelmed to take Yuniesky Betancourt — like Milwaukee had to do because they couldn’t pass up on Zack Greinke.

  255. Chuck Says:

    Whatever the trade ends up being, if he’s traded, it’s going to be an overpay.

    Ubaldo’s a good pitcher, but he’s no Halladay or Beckett or Hernandez.

  256. Cameron Says:

    I think O’Dowd’s just trying to blow smoke for PR’s sake, but Ubaldo’s worth a good haul.

  257. Chuck Says:

    Getting Jimenez would make the Yankees less likely to get into a pissing match with Sabathia over his contract.

  258. Bob Says:

    Nolan Ryan is in the hospital. Wish him well.

  259. Raul Says:

    2011 Ubaldo Jimenez

    Home: 55 innings, 5.89 ERA, Batting Average Against .314
    Away: 55.1 innings, 2.28 ERA, Batting Average Against .158

  260. JohnBowen Says:

    @255, Ubaldo’s not Halladay or Hernandez, but I don’t think Beckett exactly blows him out of the water.

    2008-2010

    Beckett’s 162 avg’s: 27 starts, 171 IP, 104 ERA+, 1.275 WHIP,
    Jimenez: 162 avg’s : 33 starts, 213 IP, 137 ERA+, 1.267 WHIP

    Now, that doesn’t include the two best years of Beckett’s careers (2007, this year), but come on. Pretty damn good for Ubaldo.

    On the other hand…his CAREER numbers at Coors are very close to his career numbers on the road. So it’s probably not like he’s going to switch ballparks and magically become Walter Johnson. For what it’s worth, his career numbers adjusted for Yankee Stadium, 2011, are 3.25 ERA, 1.211 WHIP, and almost exactly 8 K’s per game.

  261. Cameron Says:

    At the time Beckett was traded, I’d say he was better than Ubaldo. The main thing driving up Jiminez’s asking price isn’t talent, but the fact he’s team controlled through ‘12 or ‘13 and is on a cheap contract.

    But Jiminez would be a good pickup for the Yankees. Your prospects outside of Sanchez and Romine probably aren’t going anywhere (I’m not sold on Betances unless he starts closing), so if some dumbass wants to buy high on these guys I say let ‘em. Current package seems to be centered around Banuelos and Montero.

    Another star who could be traded is Hunter Pence. Pittsburgh is scouting him aggressively. With, and I quote, “The trade deadline in mind”. They want him and they want him now.

  262. JohnBowen Says:

    “At the time Beckett was traded, I’d say he was better than Ubaldo.”

    At the time Beckett was traded, he had yet to pitch 200 IP in a season.

    Beckett’s WAR, 2003-2005: 8.4
    Jimenez’s WAR, 2008-2010: 15.7

  263. Cameron Says:

    True, but he was two years younger, making 1$1.8MM less, and had a K/9 rate nearly 1 full point higher.

    He also had an ERA .16 points lower, but a lower ERA+ due to park effects. Granted, he was compiling stats with about a 200 inning handicap.

    Still, younger and cheaper for comparable production.

  264. Cameron Says:

    *making $1.8 MM less

  265. JohnBowen Says:

    Brian Cashman wipes his ass with 1.8M dollar toilet paper.

  266. Cameron Says:

    Yes he does, but most other GMs don’t. Who do you want on the trade market if you’re a GM with a league average budget?

    A) A 25 year old making $2.4MM
    B) A 27 year old making $42.MM

  267. JohnBowen Says:

    Depends on what I’m playing for, really.

    If I’m the Yankees, I’d rather have the better pitcher because they’re in constant, win-now mode.

  268. Cameron Says:

    Well, given the similar production between the two, sounds like you want Josh Beckett, or Pitcher A. It’s a wash in productivity, so go cheaper.

    Not to mention that since he had less innings under his belt, he hadn’t compiled the same stats. You could extend him for cheaper after a trade.

  269. Chuck Says:

    Yankees called up Brandon Laird today to replace Ramiro Pena who is out four to six weeks after undergoing an emergency appendectomy.

    Laird’s claim to fame so far is being arrested, along with his dimwit brother, for grabbing the ass of a female customer in the Phoenix Suns’ private club and who happened to be the wife of Grant Hill.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

  270. Bob Says:

    That really is stupid, although I chuckled.

  271. Cameron Says:

    Grabbing the ass of a female customer and getting in a fight for it. Just apologize and back off.

    Well, Brandon may not be much, but he could outplay his brother with ease. Low fucking bar, though.

  272. Chuck Says:

    Hill’s wife is the singer Tamia.

    I never heard of her, but she would have to have some recognition factor at the arena you would think.

  273. Cameron Says:

    Last I checked, she had a #1 hit on the dance charts in 2003. Yeah, real great amount of name recognition there.

    Sad bit of news, cursory glance at her wikipedia page shows she has Multiple Sclerosis… At age 36… With 2 kids.

    Well, there goes my good mood. That’s just not fair.

  274. brautigan Says:

    Asdrubal Cabrera is hitting better than Troy Tulowitzki this season. Wow. 17 homeruns, who would have thought that possible?

  275. Chuck Says:

    I saw this comment on a sabermetric driven blog today comparing Mark Teixeira’s first three seasons in New York to those of Tino Martinez.

    “And besides, the only reason I really care about his batting average is because it’s dragging his OBP down. It would be nice if everyone hit .300, but I’d be much happier with .240/.400 than .300/.360.”

    I just don’t get this newfangled statistical infatuation with walks.

  276. Cameron Says:

    I dunno. Walks and other forms of base on balls are good and help your team, the higher the better.

    Still, your job’s to hit the damn ball.

  277. Raul Says:

    It’s arguable that the slugging matters in that comparison, so let’s take a look.
    And yes, I’m including Tino’s full 3 years, but only Teixeira up to date. May be unfair, but so be it…

    Tino Martinez: .290/.364/.516
    Mark Teixeira: .267/.368/./518

    The strange thing is that Tino Martinez’s OPS+ was 125 in comparison to Mark Teixeira’s 132.

    Tino has the better numbers. And while Teixeira is no slouch, Martinez was also the better defender.

  278. Cameron Says:

    Well, Tex’s OPS s higher in that span, but I think you might also chalk it up to strength of competition. League offense for the AL in Tino’s time was a tad rougher than now.

  279. Raul Says:

    In Tino’s first 3 years as a Yankee, he drove in 381 runs.
    In Teixeira’s first 2.5 years as a Yankee, he’s driven in 296.

    Blah blah blah @ RBI don’t matter, but when the numbers are that close and Martinez was clearly the better defender, and he drove in what will likely be a good 50 more runs than you, it’s clear who was the better player —- even if that means the lesser player was still DAMN GOOD.

  280. Raul Says:

    Of interest, however, is that Mark Teixeira has led the American League in Total Bases twice: In 2005 and in 2009.

    Even more interesting? Vernon Wells led the league in 2003.
    Now there’s a bet that can win you a free beer. Who led the AL in Total Bases in 2003?

    Or a better bet would be “How many times did Barry Bonds lead the National League in Total Bases?”

    The answer is 1 time — in 1993.

  281. JohnBowen Says:

    “I saw this comment on a sabermetric driven blog today comparing Mark Teixeira’s first three seasons in New York to those of Tino Martinez.”

    For a guy that hates sabermetrics as much as you do, you sure spend a lot of time a saber blogs.

    ““And besides, the only reason I really care about his batting average is because it’s dragging his OBP down. It would be nice if everyone hit .300, but I’d be much happier with .240/.400 than .300/.360.””

    Would you like to have another discussion about which guy would create more outs?

    “I just don’t get this newfangled statistical infatuation with walks.”

    OBP correlates about 90% to run scoring.
    BA correlates about 75% to run scoring.

    Well, it’s really simple. Walks are baserunners. Baserunners are good. Baserunners are going to score runs every so often.

    I don’t get the old school hatred of walks. Do you really look at a walk the same way you would a draw in chess or something?

    Also, players and teams that draw a lot of walks drive up pitch counts, which means getting to the bullpen faster and facing worse pitchers.

    But the biggest thing about drawing a lot of walks is that you’re not swinging at low-percentage pitches. It means you’re not helping the pitcher get you out.

    Good hitters go up looking for a pitch they can drive. If you don’t get a pitch you can drive, don’t settle for something that you can nub through the infield once in a while. If you do get a pitch you can drive, fucking drive it.

  282. Raul Says:

    John writes:

    “But the biggest thing about drawing a lot of walks is that you’re not swinging at low-percentage pitches. It means you’re not helping the pitcher get you out.”

    Not necessarily true.
    Plenty of hitters (Bobby Abreu) lay off a ton of crushable pitches all the time.

  283. JohnBowen Says:

    “Tino has the better numbers. And while Teixeira is no slouch, Martinez was also the better defender.”

    Ok, come on.

    Is that really the consensus?

    Maybe I should’ve watched Tino play more first, but that’s a tough one to swallow.

    “The strange thing is that Tino Martinez’s OPS+ was 125 in comparison to Mark Teixeira’s 132.”

    Doesn’t sound strange at all. The last couple years have seen a pitcher’s resurgence. In 1996-1998, my mom hit .324 with 30 HR a year as a 2B.

    Tino Martinez was incredible in 1997. In 1996, he was maybe average. In 1998, he was a little above average.

    Teixeira has been solid for 2.5 years, better in his first than the others, but certainly more consistent.

  284. JohnBowen Says:

    “Plenty of hitters (Bobby Abreu) lay off a ton of crushable pitches all the time.”

    I agree with that w.r.t Abreu.

    Nick Johnson? Sure

    Maybe JD Drew.

    And there are some guys who have Yuniesky Betancourt’s plate discipline and are going to the Hall of Fame (Ichiro, Vlad).

    But for the most part, the approach used by guys who draw a lot of walks results in a) more baserunners, via walk and b) more production on balls in play via not swinging at anything like Yuni B.

    I hate that man

  285. Raul Says:

    There were 3 first basemen in the late 1990s, John.

    Tino Martinez
    John Olerud
    JT Snow

    He was getting old, but you could include Mark Grace. But those were the guys at 1B defensively. Teixeira is good, but he isn’t quite Tino Martinez.

  286. Raul Says:

    Surprising to me, but Mark Grace never hit 20 homers in a season.

  287. JohnBowen Says:

    I’m calling bullshit on Martinez. That sounds like typical Yankee media to me.

  288. JohnBowen Says:

    Grace also had more hits than anyone in the 1990’s.

  289. Raul Says:

    It’s funny, but when I was reading this book on Roberto Clemente, he had a teammate that was struggling. I think he told the teammate something along the lines of “Do you have a better chance of hitting the ball if you swing once or 3 times?”

    Now, that kind of thinking wouldn’t work for a lot of guys, but it worked for Clemente.

  290. Raul Says:

    The NY Media does hype guys up. Tino Martinez was not one of them. He was legitimately a great defender. Shoot, you’d have to be to field throws from Scott Brosius, Charlie Hayes and Chuck Knoblauch.

  291. Chuck Says:

    “For a guy that hates sabermetrics as much as you do, you sure spend a lot of time a saber blogs.”

    It’s actually a Yankee blog John, which I link to my email, just more saber driven than others.

    Thanks for your concern though.

  292. Raul Says:

    Chuck responded in another article, but I think it was meant to be this one.

    Anyway, I disagree. Thought Tino was better.

    In other news, Cashman says he is not close to trading for any pitchers.

  293. Chuck Says:

    I love Tino. I knew him when he was a nobody with Seattle.

    I loved the trade to New York.

    That said, Mark Teixeira makes him look like Prince Fielder.

  294. Raul Says:

    That bad, huh? LOL

    Stanton’s got a double and 2 rbi today. Do the Yankees have anyone that they could theoretically trade for Mike Stanton?

    I’m not saying that with Yankee arrogance. I mean, hypothetically, what would the Yankees have to offer to get him?

    I think…CC Sabathia, and pay his contract, and offer like their top 7 prospects. And maybe Florida would think about it.

  295. Chuck Says:

    I don’t know if I’ve ever seen this before.

    Lightning struck Tropicana Field and blew out the power, causing a delay in the Yankees/Rays game.

    I remember a few years ago in San Diego a transformer blew up and caused a one day delay in a Dbacks/Padres game.

    But a power failure caused by lightning?

    Nope.

    Cheap ass Rays, can’t even afford a fucking generator?

  296. Raul Says:

    I tuned in just after it happened. Weird.

  297. Raul Says:

    Billy Butler has been disappointing this year from a power perspective.

    Cam, what the hell is up with that guy?

  298. Raul Says:

    Also, Alcides Escobar has 2 hits today.

    Who’s putting steroids in his breakfast cereal?

  299. brautigan Says:

    Raul: Mike Stanton at age 21 has 42 homeruns, plus a walk every 10 at bats (That number will improve with pitcher wariness). He may be the one person that could bring Florida fans to the ballpark consistently. You don’t trade him away. He IS the epitome of a “keeper”.

    I don’t think of it as Yankee arrogance, more of a fan saying “how can we get THAT guy onto my team?”

  300. brautigan Says:

    It’s looking like Escobar is a warm weather player. The heat is making Escobar a very good player.

  301. Chuck Says:

    Saw this the other day.

    Mike Stanton is the only player in professional baseball history to have 20 homers in the minor leagues and major leagues in the same season.

    Smoke that.

  302. Raul Says:

    I agree Brautigan.

    That’s impressive Chuck

  303. Raul Says:

    Wow @ the scoring festival between Boston and Baltimore tonight.

  304. Raul Says:

    Wondering why the hell Kyle Farnsworth would throw a 2-strike fastball away to Brett Gardner?

    You throw like 100 mph. There’s no way Gardner is going to pull the ball with 2 strikes.

    He singles and the Yankees get to 4-3.
    A Fielders Choice has them tied now.

  305. Chuck Says:

    “Wondering why the hell Kyle Farnsworth would throw a 2-strike fastball away to Brett Gardner”

    I’m still wondering why the hell Kyle Farnsworth is the Rays’ closer.

  306. Chuck Says:

    LOL..David Cone just called Tropicana Field “Yankee Stadium South”

  307. Raul Says:

    Longoria is really having a down year.
    Just my luck. Every time I draft a guy on my fantasy team, he shits the bed.

  308. Chuck Says:

    Bobby Valentine was talking about him last night, saying he’s still suffering from his oblique injury. His swing looks the same, but he just can’t get behind the ball to drive it.

    The warning track fly he hit in the ninth or tenth last night would have been long gone if he was healthy.

    He hit one to right tonight that I thought was gone too, and it just died. Had no gas on it.

  309. JohnBowen Says:

    “Shoot, you’d have to be to field throws from Scott Brosius, Charlie Hayes and Chuck Knoblauch.”

    Brosius was considered very good. Shit, we’ve spent the last 7 years listening to Yankee fans bitch about how they’d be better off with him out there than their two-time MVP.

    Hayes was fine too. At least he better have been, seeing as he stayed in the league for 14 seasons.

    My understanding with Knoblauch was that, all of a sudden, he had a mental block like the catcher in Major League II and just stopped being able to do it…but that he’d been fine before. He actually won a gold glove (not that that means shit) while Robby Alomar was still in the AL.

    Even Jeter has always had a very solid, accurate throwing arm.

  310. Chuck Says:

    In his last start, Royals AAA starter Luis Mendoza had a no-hitter through eight innings and gave up a hit to the first batter in the ninth.

    Tonight, through eight innings, Mendoza has a no-hitter.

    I’m watching the game, will post updates in the bottom of the ninth.

  311. JohnBowen Says:

    @307…

    This is the year I finally ended up with Pujols.

  312. Raul Says:

    lol @ John

    No luck at all.

  313. Chuck Says:

    Aw, shit.

    Leadoff batter hits a line drive to left field who lost the ball in the lights, he made a nice attempt but the ball tipped off his glove.

    Double.

    Bye bye no-no.

  314. Raul Says:

    Looks like the Mendoza line might actually be a good thing this time

  315. Chuck Says:

    In other minor league news, Princess Montero actually hit a homer to left center, and Bryce Harper went 0-3, dropping his BA to .194.

  316. Chuck Says:

    LOL@#314..early contender for line of the year.

  317. Raul Says:

    Well, that’s good news.

    Both regarding Montero, and Harper.

  318. Raul Says:

    These Tampa fans are annoying with that cowbell crap.

    It was cool when Will Ferrell did it in that SNL skit, but these fans suck.

  319. JohnBowen Says:

    “Blah blah blah @ RBI don’t matter, but when the numbers are that close and Martinez was clearly the better defender, and he drove in what will likely be a good 50 more runs than you”

    RBI’s are fine if you look at the context.

    So let’s do that:

    Tino hit 5th in the Yankees order from ‘96-’98

    Bernie Williams, Paul O’Neill, and Derek Jeter hit in front of him that whole time (and going through 2001, I believe).

    From ‘96-’98:
    Williams: .406 OBP
    O’Neill: .394 OBP
    Jeter: .375 OBP

    You also had Wade Boggs (.382 from ‘96-’97) and Chuck Knoblauch (.361 in 1998) hitting in front.

    So, that’s what we call a “fuck-ton” of RBI opportunities.

    Teixeira hits third in the Yankee order.

    The four spots ahead of him are 8-2. So what’s that? Some combination of Jeter, Gardner, Damon, Cabrera, Cervelli, Martin, Molina etc. Granted, that includes a fantastic year by Jeter and decent years by Gardner and Damon…but I think you’re looking at an overall OBP of .340-.350 from the four spots ahead of Tex, as opposed to like .390 from the four spots ahead of Martinez.

    On the flip side…

    In Martinez’s first three years, he scored 270 runs.
    Teixeira has 268 through 2.5 and led the league last year.

    Which, like RBI, is largely because of where they hit in their respective orders.

  320. Chuck Says:

    That Torres kid for Tampa is Manny Banuelos.

    Diminutive lefty whose best pitch is a changeup.

    LOOGY.

  321. JohnBowen Says:

    ” and Bryce Harper went 0-3, dropping his BA to .194.”

    Since when should we care about stats in AA?

    Also, we’re talking about 31 at-bats.

    If he goes 5 for 5 tomorrow, then he’s hitting .306.

    So is he all of a sudden awesome and worthy of the hype if he does that?

  322. JohnBowen Says:

    Ryan Roberts just launched one.

    Chuck, don’t be shocked if you have to replace a window.

    Well ok, that joke would make sense in most other parks…

  323. JohnBowen Says:

    Ty Cobb got his 4000th hit 84 years ago today.

    Willie Mays got his 3000th hit 41 years ago today

  324. Chuck Says:

    “Since when should we care about stats in AA?”

    AA is when stats start to matter John.

    I get the 31 AB thing, but the difference between Low A and AA is ginormous.

    I’ve been telling you guys all along that Harper’s strengths in high school, college and even in A ball will become a weakness as he progresses up the ladder.

    Experienced pitchers will take advantage of his uncontrolled aggressiveness and turn him from Tom Verducci’s boner into Rob Deer.

  325. Cameron Says:

    “Billy Butler has been disappointing this year from a power perspective.

    Cam, what the hell is up with that guy?”

    When you watch a guy for a while, you get a good read on him. Billy Butler’s a 20 HR player hitting in a park that robs him of all his power. He hit 51 doubles in 2009 for a reason. While he’s big and strong, he focuses more on putting good wood on the ball and getting it into play. He’s a good .280-.300 hitter, but he’s not gonna crack 20 in KC.

  326. JohnBowen Says:

    “AA is when stats start to matter John.”

    Shhhh. You best friend Shaun might hear you!

    “I’ve been telling you guys all along that Harper’s strengths in high school, college and even in A ball will become a weakness as he progresses up the ladder.

    Experienced pitchers will take advantage of his uncontrolled aggressiveness and turn him from Tom Verducci’s boner into Rob Deer.”

    See, that’s the kind of analysis I like to hear.

    Players with no holes in their game go 6 for 31 all the time. It’s a tough game.

    But a possible justification for his struggles provides me with context.

  327. JohnBowen Says:

    Man.

    We can’t get ANYTHING going off Collmentor.

  328. JohnBowen Says:

    I open up bleacher report to write an article.

    Feature article: Biggest ego’s in MLB history.
    Next one: Grumpiest players in MLB

    1) Who cares?
    2) How the fuck are you justifying these rankings? What is Orlando’s GORP? (Grumpiness Over Replacement Player)

  329. Cameron Says:

    I think when Harper learns that not every swing’s gonna turn into a homer and you need to, y’know, lay off crap you can’t hit, he’ll be fine.

    And Collmenter is an odd guy. I never thought he’d get big, but he did. Also, I love his delivery. It’s like watching a catapult on the mound.

  330. JohnBowen Says:

    The Brewers are one of the most fundamentally unsound teams I’ve ever seen.

    Randy Wolf, who pitched a nice game, made two errors and failed to drop down a bunt when it was a 1-0 game.

    No excuse for that shit.

  331. Cameron Says:

    The Brewers play like a late 90s team. Just hit as much shit out of the park as you can.

  332. JohnBowen Says:

    The left side of the infield is hitting like a mid-60’s team.

    Just suck.

  333. Raul Says:

    Any pitcher that has a change-up as his best pitch is not going to be a great pitcher at the major league level.

    There have been pitchers with great change-ups. In recent memory, Pedro Martinez, Trevor Hoffman and Johan Santana come to mind. But all of them had great fastballs with late movement. Especially Martinez. And Santana was one of those few left-handers that could throw in the mid-90s.

    Banuelos, from what I’ve seen and read, actually does throw in the mid-90s but he sure couldn’t locate it well in Spring Training and it looks like he hasn’t gotten much better at it throughout the season. I think he walked 5 in his last start.

    The Yankees have seen a player come up in the last 3 years who had a GREAT change-up. His name? Edwar Ramirez. Thing is, he threw like 86 mph on a good day got destroyed.

  334. Lefty33 Says:

    “My understanding with Knoblauch was that, all of a sudden, he had a mental block like the catcher in Major League II and just stopped being able to do it…but that he’d been fine before.”

    He aquired Steve Blass Disease.

    Other guys have had that happen over the years:

    Steve Blass, Steve Sax, Steve Trout, Joe Cowley, Bruce Ruffin, Rick Ankiel, Kevin Saucier, Mackey Sasser.

  335. Raul Says:

    Note to self: Never be named Steve.

  336. Cameron Says:

    Eh, I’d debate that Pedro, Hoffman, and Santana had their changeup as their best pitch. The thing is they also had the good fastballs and a few other pitches (like Pedro’s fuck-off curveball) to help set them up.

  337. JohnBowen Says:

    Here’s something you won’t see in the box-score:

    Yesterday, Nunez hit a double play ball with 1 out and the tying run on third.

    It would’ve been a double play, if not for just a terrific take-out slide by Brett Gardner.

  338. Raul Says:

    Yeah Cam,

    But Pedro in his prime reached 97 mph on his fastball.
    Hoffman probably averaged 95-96 for most of his career.
    And Santana was hitting 93-95 with it.

    And they could all locate with it.
    Banuelos has to be able to locate the fastball or else what’s the point?

    Hitters either sit fastball and look for a certain zone, or they can say fuck it…look change up and go from there. Although I think you have to be really friggin predictable as a pitcher for hitters to look change-up (Note: See Javier Vazquez in 2004 ALCS).

  339. Raul Says:

    Let me go back….almost all hitters look fastball in a zone, depending on the count.

    But you know what I meant.

  340. JohnBowen Says:

    You know what was amazing?

    Pedro no-hit arguably the best offense of all-time for 6 relief innings without his fastball or changeup.

    Man, he was incredible.

  341. brautigan Says:

    Greg Maddux had a mid 80’s fast ball. Guess what his out pitch was? The circle change. Hitters flew out of their shoes trying to hit that pitch. Trying being the operative word.

  342. Raul Says:

    Greg Maddux was successful because with a man on first base and a lefty at the plate, he’d throw that 2-seamer at his hip and the batter would take that for a strike…then he’d throw it again and he’d get a weak grounder to 2nd base for a double play.

    I’ve seen him do that shit a hundred times.

  343. brautigan Says:

    LOL @ Raul: Sometimes it was TOO weak and they didn’t turn the DP.

    It was so much fun to watch the professor during his prime, that’s for sure.

Leave a Reply


RSS
Categories
Fan Duel
FanDuel - Daily Fantasy Baseball
YardBarker
Advertisement