MLB Trade Deadline: Phillies Overpaid for Pence

by JohnBowen

In 2010, Hunter Pence must have hit .345 with 43 home runs, 52 doubles, 125 walks, and 173 RBI. He also must have sucker-punched the official scorer’s child.

Otherwise, it would be hard to explain why the Philadelphia Phillies (along with some other teams) were so intent on acquiring him. The Phillies committed four prospects to acquire the former Houston right fielder, including pitcher Jarred Cosart and first baseman Jonathon Singleton, the 70th and 39th ranked prospects in the country according to Baseball America (pre-2011).

Now, Hunter Pence is a very solid player. He is above-average at every aspect of his game except for patience. And, in defense of Phillies General Manager Ruben Amaro Jr., Pence represents a significant upgrade over 23-year old rookie Domonic Brown and is under team control through 2013.

But for two top prospects, as well as two additional prospects, the impact of a new player needs to be absolutely huge, such as transforming a borderline contender to a playoff team. The Milwaukee Brewers’ 2008 trade to acquire CC Sabathia in exchange for top prospects Matt LaPorta, Zach Jackson and Michael Brantley is a great example of this. The Brewers were in the hunt, would have been on the outside looking in if Sabathia hadn’t come to Milwaukee and gone 11-2 with a 1.60 ERA in 17 starts.

Upgrading right field in Philadelphia is not that big of an impact – at least not in 2011. The Phillies are already the best team in the National League. They’re already the odds-on favorite to win the World Series. Unless Cole Hamels and Cliff Lee break each other’s left thumbs in a pre-game arm-wrestling match, the Phillies will have home field advantage throughout the playoffs. This trade doesn’t substantially change the likelihood of anything that could be influenced by the regular season.

Once you just get into the playoffs – anything can happen. Your odds of winning it all – whether you’re the 2001 Seattle Mariners or the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals – are basically one in eight, whether your right fielder is an established big leaguer or a roughly league average rookie. They aren’t exactly that, but in a small enough sample of five or seven games, anything can happen. Alex Rodriguez can go 1 for 14. Chad Ogea can pitch like Cy Young. That’s what makes October so great.

If the Phillies don’t win it all, it won’t have anything to do with any lack of production they might get from right field, but rather it will mean that their star-studded rotation imploded and Rollins, Victorino, Utley, and Howard all struggled mightily.

Look at the player they acquired to upgrade their outfield. Really look at him. This isn’t a big-time game changer. This is Hunter Pence. Pence owns a career on-base percentage of .339, 1 point lower than the immortal Roger Cedeno. In three full seasons, he has not eclipsed a .500 slugging percentage. He’s a good player. He’s not a game-changer.

You don’t trade top prospects for the Hyndai Elentra of ballplayers.

326 Responses to “MLB Trade Deadline: Phillies Overpaid for Pence”

  1. JohnBowen Says:

    Thanks to Raul for the Hyndai Elentra line!

    We’ve pretty much discussed this ad nauseum, but I was writing the article anyway so…

  2. Cameron Says:

    A significant upgrade over Brown, or an astronomical upgrade over Raul Ibanez. Take your pick.

  3. Bob Says:

    Cameron, the Sox and Royals made a trade. I like this move for you guys. Kendall Volz has a chance to be a solid bullpen piece. Navarro did nothing for me, however.

  4. Cameron Says:

    NO! NOT MIKEY! FUCK!

  5. Bob Says:

    YES, IT WAS MIKEY! SHIT!

  6. Raul Says:

    Aviles went to Concordia?

    LOL

    I’ve played on one of their practice fields. Not far from where I grew up.

  7. Cameron Says:

    Sorry, but Mikey’s one of those guys I love. It just sucks to see the hometown favorite get traded.

  8. Bob Says:

    Cameron, no issues. Hope he plays well for the Sox, and I hope Volz and Navarro play well for the Royals.

  9. Cameron Says:

    Well, Mikey’s going from AAA to a backup role. In fact, I can argue he’s probably gonna muscle in a fair amount of time at shortstop. Better option than Lowrie or Scutaro IMO.

  10. Chuck Says:

    I don’t think the Sox would have a realistic shot at a ring with Scutaro and Lowrie playing at short every day.

    Aviles resolves that issue.

    The two guys who went to KC are garbage.

    Moustakas, Escobar, Giovatella (next year) and Hosmer.

    Royals won’t need an infielder for years.

    Navarro is bench protection.

    In Omaha.

  11. Cameron Says:

    Giavotella might end up in KC as a September callup actually.

  12. Bob Says:

    I concur about Navarro. I do think, however that Volz could be the Diamond-in-the-Rough.

  13. Cameron Says:

    We have enough bullpen pieces to go around for several teams, I’m not terribly excited about Volz. I have a small feeling of wanting the Red Sox to win the World Series so Mikey gets a ring.

    Then again, I’ve been cheering for the Falcons to win a Superbowl to give Tony Goonzalez the Superbowl Ring he’s deserved from day one and they’ve shafted me on that, too.

  14. Chuck Says:

    Trevor Bauer makes his pro debut tonite.

    I agree, Cam..Mikey’s a real good guy and I’m really happy for him.

    Gotta root for the Puerto Rican’s, you know.

  15. Cameron Says:

    Good guy and a hell of a player to boot.

  16. Chuck Says:

    Check this out, Cam

    http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110729&content_id=22496252&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb

  17. Raul Says:

    2 months left in the season.
    Let Aaron Crow start already.

  18. Chuck Says:

    So far, no change to any probables for tonite, meaning no trade of Jimenez is imminent.

  19. Cameron Says:

    Crow should start as soon as we find a dumbass to take one of the warm bodies that makes up our SIX MAN ROTATION!!!

  20. Cameron Says:

    And sweet holy shit, I didn’t know anyone could hit a streak that hot. Go Salvador!

  21. Raul Says:

    Jacob Turner

    3 innings
    2 hits
    2 walks
    4 strikeouts
    62 pitches

  22. Raul Says:

    I’m curious.

    When was the last time a pitcher threw a complete game in his first major league start?

  23. Chuck Says:

    Oh, I don’t know, probably before Barry Bonds took his first injection..before Cameron was born…before we were concerned about DH’s and closers being HOF candidates..before Nicholas Cage changed his name to Nic and started making shit movies.

    Wait, I take that last one back.

    Nicholas Cage has never made a good movie.

    He makes Jim Carrey look like Marlon fucking Brando.

  24. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, Nic Cage still had stuff like Zandalee and Leaving Las Vegas after I was born that was good stuff. However, Bad Lieutenant and Wicker Man are entertaining in their own way. Cage can make anything watchable with his batshit insanity.

  25. Lefty33 Says:

    “When was the last time a pitcher threw a complete game in his first major league start?”

    At first I though Buchholz but I forgot that his no hitter was in his second start in ‘07.

  26. Lefty33 Says:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI199806140.shtml

    Carlton Loewer?

  27. Raul Says:

    1998?

    I thought it would have been much longer than that — the way they baby these pitchers?

    Poor guys. They need to be limited to 170 innings. If you made all your starts over the course of a season and pitched 170 innings, that averages less than 5 innings per start.

    Pathetic.

    Your 1 and 2 guys should average at least 7 innings.
    Rookies should get to 170 innings…at age 19.

    If you’re 22 and you can’t crack 200 innings, you’re a pussy.

  28. Raul Says:

    And I’m probably being conservative with those estimates.

  29. Chuck Says:

    Pence is in the Phillies lineup, playing RF and hitting fifth.

    Domonic Brown is on his way to Allentown.

    I could see the Phils trading Brown for Heath Bell, to be honest.

    Unless they see him as the replacement in LF for Ibanez.

  30. Cameron Says:

    Probably. Brown’s under team control for a long time and Ibanez comes off the books after this year. Converting Brown is the smart move.

  31. Lefty33 Says:

    “Unless they see him as the replacement in LF for Ibanez.”

    As of now that does seem to be the consensus.

    Next year Brown/Victorino/Pence with Mayberry as the 4th OF/PH like he is now.

  32. JohnBowen Says:

    “When was the last time a pitcher threw a complete game in his first major league start?”

    Andy Van Hekken, September 3, 2002 for the Tigers against the Indians:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET200209030.shtml

    Threw a shutout, giving up 8 hits and 2 walks. He struck out just 1.

    “Oh, I don’t know, probably before Barry Bonds took his first injection”

    Haha. Nope.

  33. JohnBowen Says:

    Wow, Van Hekken never pitched again after that season.

  34. Chuck Says:

    DBacks get Jason Marquis.

  35. Lefty33 Says:

    Tonight Brown is playing LF and batting cleanup between Pete Orr and Delwyn Young.

    Also tonight the Ironpigs are playing Buffalo and playing for 1B for Buffalo is the guy Chuck has a mancrush on, Val Pascucci.

  36. Chuck Says:

    That piece of crap Chris Dickerson got two hits in game one, raising his average to .321.

    That piece of crap Mark Reynods got two hits, raising his average to .221.

    Did you know Chris Dickerson is Eric’s nephew?

  37. Chuck Says:

    “Also tonight the Ironpigs are playing Buffalo and playing for 1B for Buffalo is the guy Chuck has a mancrush on, Val Pascucci.”

    Eat his veal parm and you’d have a crush on him, too.

  38. JohnBowen Says:

    “I don’t think the Sox would have a realistic shot at a ring with Scutaro and Lowrie playing at short every day.
    Aviles resolves that issue.”

    Boston SS, 2011: .248/.306/.358, for a 92 OPS+. Really, that’s not all that bad for SS, especially when you have four of the league’s top 10 position players also on your team.

    Aviles, 2011: .222/.261/.395 for an 82 OPS+.

    He probably won’t even be a starter.

    You really think a team on a pace to win over 100 games has no realistic shot at a ring because of one position? Please.

  39. Chuck Says:

    Rangers trade Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter to Baltimore for Koji Uehara.

    Wow..talking about an overpay.

    Unless Uehara is a flip for Bell.

  40. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but look at Mike Aviles’ career.

    .286/.317/.417 with a 98 OPS+

  41. Cameron Says:

    Uehara’s one of the big fish in this season’s market. Score for Baltimore. Dunno if Chris Davis is ever gonna be anything outside of a platoon bat, but score on Hunter.

  42. Chuck Says:

    “You really think a team on a pace to win over 100 games has no realistic shot at a ring because of one position?”

    Great comment.

    On Bleacher Report.

    Milwaukee has no realistic chance at a ring because of their shortstop.

    So, yeah, the position can matter.

  43. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok.

    Possible upgrade.

    Not sure I’m seeing where Boston can all of a sudden contend for a title. They’re the odds-on favorite to win the AL pennant with or without this guy.

  44. Cameron Says:

    With or without, certainly. Mike was never gonna make or break that team.

  45. JohnBowen Says:

    “Milwaukee has no realistic chance at a ring because of their shortstop.”

    Bullshit.

    Let’s look at some WS champion SS:

    2007 BOS: Julio Lugo
    2005 CHW: Juan Uribe
    2001 ARI: Tony Womack

    We’re talking one position. And in the Red Sox case, they’re the best team in the AL, pretty easily, even with a not-so-hot SS.

  46. Raul Says:

    Maybe. Can I play devil’s advocate?

    Lugo was great in his World Series.
    Womack hit a crucial double in Game 7 in 2001.
    Juan Uribe helped the Giants win it last year.

    I tried.

  47. Chuck Says:

    “They’re the odds-on favorite to win the AL pennant with or without this guy.”

    Agreed.

    Same with Philly.

    Pence makes Philly a better team.

    Aviles makes the Sox a better team, even though he won’t have the same impact.

    Neither team needed either player.

  48. JohnBowen Says:

    @46…damnit.

    You know who I purposefully didn’t mention as a shit SS who won a WS title because he did really well in the WS to impress his albino midget parents?

    Yeah…

    Though Eck’s 02 season with the Angels was actually pretty good.

  49. Cameron Says:

    Both were insurance adds, but Pence will be with Philly long-term. He’s only 28, he’ll be productive for.. What, between another 5 to 7 years as a conservative estimate?

  50. Raul Says:

    I go to the grocery store and get back to check the box scores and the Yankees scored 12 runs in the bottom of the 1st inning of Game 2.

    WHAT.
    THE.
    HELL?

    Also,

    I think I may be done buying shitty ass cheeses at the supermarket. I got these blocks of cheddar and gouda and…*muah* they fucking taste amazing. Tried to get this block of gruyere but those fuckers wanted $20.

  51. Raul Says:

    Bottom of the 2nd, 2 outs.
    Yankees lead 15-0.

    I think Peter Angelos might beat his wife tonight.

  52. John Says:

    Haha, that was my reaction.

    My sister-in-law is a big Yankees fan and she went to the game today.

    I texted her and asked if the two teams were playing the same sport.

    Orioles probably stopped giving a shit after the first game and just sent Britton out there to play by himself.

    And now it’s 15-0.

    Fuck the heck?

  53. Raul Says:

    Britton’s line:

    0.1 innings
    7 runs
    9 hits
    6 earned
    1 walk
    1 strikeout
    45 pitches

  54. Cameron Says:

    Ouch…

  55. John Says:

    Jon Heyman is tweeting that the Indians are in the process of landing Ubaldo Jimenez for Alex White and…Pomeranz.

  56. Cameron Says:

    White and Pomeranz? Not bad. Though given how long Jiminez is under team control, I’d ask for a PTBNL on top of it.

  57. Raul Says:

    Brian Cashman has to be thinking “fuck, I can’t even give Montero away”

  58. Cameron Says:

    Oh, Matt McBride’s in that trade too. …Yeah, I’d take that from either side of the trade.

  59. John Says:

    But Ubaldo is still warming up….

  60. Cameron Says:

    So he starts for Cleveland next week.

  61. John Says:

    Apparently Pomeranz can’t officially be named yet, but he’ll be the ptbnl.

  62. Cameron Says:

    It looks like the full package is Alex White, Drew Pomeranz, and Matt McBride. They all have their concerns, but I’d say that’s a good haul for Colorado. Glad to see them focused on building their pitching staff. Adding that along to Tyler Matzek is pretty nice.

    Also, saw Seattle got Francisco Martinez from the Doug Fister trade. Nice.

  63. Raul Says:

    Yankees game trivia question was “In the 1996 ALCS, the Yankees beat the Orioles 4 games to 1. Who recorded the sole win for the Orioles?”

    The answer was David Wells, despite almost everyone guessing Mike Mussina.

  64. Raul Says:

    Going with some turkey burgers and a couple beers tonight.

    I just wanted to use that as an excuse to announce my first St. Pauli Girl in about 4 years.

    LOL

  65. Chuck Says:

    Turkey burgers and beer?

    LOL.

    I’d rather have Cameron’s microwaved hot dogs.

    Ubaldo pitched one inning and got pulled.

  66. Raul Says:

    The only other thing to drink in my house is water and milk.
    Give me a break, dude.

    I wanted something quick and I already had the ground turkey out this morning because I was gonna make some pasta dish and I changed my mind.

  67. Raul Says:

    So short of NY trading AA for Felix Hernandez, they won’t do anything this year at the trading deadline.

  68. Raul Says:

    LOL

    And there’s no way you’re gonna eat Cam’s microwaved hot dogs.

    Oscar Meyer’s got nothing on Nathans (or possibly Hebrew Nationals or Sabretts).
    Actually there’s this really good hot dog stand in the city my friend keeps telling me about but I never go.

  69. Raul Says:

    Robinson Cano has a 5-hit game —- in the 6th inning.

  70. Cameron Says:

    Oscar Mayer? Ha… I buy Bar S buddy, I’m broke as shit.

  71. Chuck Says:

    “I wanted something quick and I already had the ground turkey out this morning because I was gonna make some pasta dish and I changed my mind”

    Dude…the only thing ground turkey is good for is spackling nail holes in drywall.

    It really doesn’t matter how you make it.

    And I haven’t even started on the St. Pauli Girl.

    I mean, damn, it’s got “girl” in the title.

    Holy snap.

  72. Raul Says:

    LOL

    Chuck’s toothpaste is bacon flavored.

  73. Jim Says:

    Looks like the RS are getting Rich Harden for Lars Anderson.

  74. Cameron Says:

    Mmmm… Bacon flavored toothpaste…

  75. Raul Says:

    I suppose that makes sense. High ceiling guy for Boston if Harden can stay healthy.

    And so long as Lars Anderson plays slightly above “piece of shit” level, he’ll be the best first baseman in Oakland in 10 years.

  76. Chuck Says:

    “And so long as Lars Anderson plays slightly above “piece of shit” level, he’ll be the best first baseman in Oakland in 10 years.”

    All he has to do is not break his leg getting off the plane.

  77. Jim Says:

    “plays slightly above “piece of shit” level,…”
    “All he has to do is not break his leg getting off the plane.”

    Proving again the genius of Billy Beane. smirk

  78. Raul Says:

    Hiroki Kuroda tells the Dodgers he will not waive his no-trade clause, putting an end to several offers the Dodgers were surely entertaining.

    I wonder if Colletti instructs Don Mattingly to leave Kuroda out there for 150 pitches in his next outing.

  79. Raul Says:

    Ok, this is pissing me right the fuck off.

    Jon Lester, in his return back from the disabled list, pitched 8 innings of 4-hit baseball.

    He allowed 2 runs, 1 walk and struck out 8.
    The Red Sox were leading 5-2.

    Lester had 98 pitches.

    LET HIM FINISH THE FUCKING GAME!!!!!

    Boston would score 5 more in the top of the 9th to win 10-2, but this pitch count shit just has baseball with a generation of fucking pussies.

  80. Chuck Says:

    “I wonder if Colletti instructs Don Mattingly to leave Kuroda out there for 150 pitches in his next outing.”

    I was thinking more along the lines of hanging a picture of Hideki Irabu in his locker.

  81. Raul Says:

    Too soon, Chuck.
    Too soon.

  82. Chuck Says:

    Wow…is it me, or have most of the trades so far been extremely one-sided?

    The Tigers got hosed on the Fister deal.

  83. Raul Says:

    Chuck was right about Pedro Alvarez in those comments 2-3 years ago.

    Alvarez was hitting .200 this year and got sent down to the minors.
    He ripped it up in 18 games at AAA then proceeded to hit .200 again since his call-up.

  84. Chuck Says:

    I know, my bad.

    I was going to say Kei Igawa, but the joke would have been lost.

    Although it must be said I don’t sympathize with anyone who takes themselves out.

  85. Chuck Says:

    Pedro Alvarez went yard off Cliff Lee tonite.

    Matt LaPorta walked off against Joaquim Soria.

  86. Raul Says:

    I think it’s that Fister has 3 years until free agency.

    I don’t know much about the Francisco kid.

  87. Cameron Says:

    Martinez is one of the better 3B prospects around, but he was kinda cockblocked in Detroit since they have Alex Castellanos.

  88. Cameron Says:

    Nick Castellanos, my bad.

  89. Cameron Says:

    The Pirates added Derrek Lee. I don’t know if that’s an upgrade over Lyle Overbay or not.

  90. Cameron Says:

    And San Fran got themselves a competent shortstop in Orlando Cabrera.

  91. Mike Felber Says:

    I dunno what you were doin’ in my NYC neck of the woods Raul,but I think many natives do not even know-cheese stores or gourmet shops like Zabars & Fairway can be CHEAPER than supermarket cheese, & of course much more variety & quality. I am partial to milder stuff, Havarti, Munster,Monterey Jack, Gouda-esp. Swiss. If you like Swiss cheese, I suggest trying Leerdammer. Hopefully you tried the ‘za here, that still is generally excellent.

  92. Cameron Says:

    Surprise, surprise, the Rich Harden deal was nixed because Harden’s physical turned out bad. Rich Harden in poor condition? Do tell.

  93. Raul Says:

    Well, I moved to California this past winter, Mike. Food here is a bit of a struggle sometimes, but I appreciate the post.

    2 hours until the trade deadline.

    The Braves traded a fast white guy for a fast black guy.

    The Dodgers traded Rafael Furcal to St. Louis for Alex Castellanos. Castellanos is 24 years old in AA, and from what I can tell, was on a Cardinals program to play every position before being called up. The kid has played 2B, 3B, SS, 1B, and all 3 outfield positions. If the Dodgers make this kid put on some catcher’s gear, he might kill someone.

    The Giants moved to get Orlando Cabrera. I suppose it says a lot about Juan Uribe that his team went out and got a guy who has played a combined 15 innings at SS this season.

    And the Indians traded everyone for Ubaldo Jimenez. I got a cool $100 says Cleveland will spin him off to another team next year.

  94. Raul Says:

    My mistake.

    Juan Uribe isn’t on the Giants. I just suppose that every shortstop on a professional team in California is a bag of shit.

    Let’s see:

    Brandon Crawford
    Cliff Pennington
    Juan Uribe
    Erick Aybar
    Jason Bartlett

    Ok, so if I give them Erick Aybar, it’s 4 out of 5.

  95. Raul Says:

    Justin Verlander has a no-hitter going through 5.

  96. Raul Says:

    No hitter through six.

  97. Raul Says:

    Well that’s over.

  98. Raul Says:

    Saw the highlights of Gordon’s and Frenchy’s homers.

    Frenchy to left and Gordon to center. Pretty nice from Gordon. It’s not easy to hit em out to center in Cleveland.

  99. Raul Says:

    Wait, no.

    My mistake. I was in the kitchen and saw a runner on first and thought the No-Hitter was over.

    Turns out it was another walk.

  100. Raul Says:

    Carlos Guillen just stared at Weaver like a mofo after hitting a homer.

    Wow.

  101. Raul Says:

    Aybar dropped a bunt and Verlander threw it wild to 1B.
    Aybar at 2nd base.

    E1.
    No Hitter still intact.

    Aybar with a bitch move.

    You don’t bunt with a no-hitter.

  102. Raul Says:

    Great.

    Just great.

    Aybar on 3rd base
    1 out.

    Trumbo with a ground ball to 3B.
    They have Aybar in a rundown but the Tigers botch it and Aybar scores.

    3-1 Tigers.

  103. Raul Says:

    Verlander strikes out Howie Kendrick with an 88mph changeup…because it’s the 8th inning and he’s still throwing 100 on the fastball.

    Maicer Izturis breaks up the no-hitter with a 2-out single.

    3-2 Tigers still lead.

    Nice effort, Justin.

    Wait, he’s still not coming out of the game. Even better.

  104. Raul Says:

    And Verlander is hitting 101 on the gun.

  105. Raul Says:

    And with 2 strikes just gave Torii Hunter an 84 mph curveball….which Hunter fouls off.

    Incredible.

  106. Raul Says:

    Struck him out with a fastball inside.

    Verlander is a beast.

  107. Raul Says:

    I’m wondering what happened in New York.

    Hector Noesi started the game but apparently went just 0.2 of an inning — but he allowed no runs and just 1 hit so it wasn’t a Zach Britton situation.

  108. Raul Says:

    Texas Rangers get Mike Adams from San Diego, along with Koji Uehara from Baltimore, which helps their bullpen out for the stretch run.

    The Padres get minor league pitchers Robbie Erlin and Joe Wieland.

    From ESPN:

    It came at a price. The Rangers dealt two solid pitching prospects to get Adams. Erlin, a lefty, is 8-4 with a 3.34 ERA over his last 20 games (19 starts) with Class A Myrtle Beach and Double-A Frisco this season. He was taken by the Rangers in the third round of the 2009 June draft.

    Wieland is 10-3 with a 1.80 ERA in 21 games (20 starts) for Myrtle Beach and Frisco this season after getting promoted to Frisco in late June. He threw a no-hitter on Friday against San Antonio, allowing just one walk.

  109. Raul Says:

    I’m a little torn here.

    Yes, you are supposed to use your best relievers when the game is on the line.
    So in a way, it was good that in the Yankees game I saw David Robertson in the 7th inning with a 4-2 game.

    But was Robertson moved out of the 8th inning now that Rafael Soriano is back from the DL? Because if so, that’s kinda bullshit. Robertson has done incredibly well this year, and for him to get a “demotion” because the Yankees need to justify Soriano’s contract? Bullshit.

  110. Raul Says:

    Billy Beane couldn’t get Lars Anderson after his trade with Boston fell through due to Harden failing his physical.

    So he turned to Arizona, moving reliever Brad Ziegler for first baseman Brandon Allen.

  111. Raul Says:

    Nevermind…Robertson is back out there for the 8th.

  112. Raul Says:

    …and struck out the side.

  113. Cameron Says:

    Ziegler for Allen? I actually like that move better. He’s getting a better player for cheaper.

  114. Raul Says:

    Atta boy, Dusty Baker.

    Way to let Johnny Cueto get his complete game, even though you guys led 9-0.

  115. Cameron Says:

    And Atlanta picked up Michael Bourn for Jordan Schafer and 3 minor league arms I’ve never heard of.

    Still, 8 players for Pence and Bourn. Not a bad way to restock your POS farm system.

  116. Raul Says:

    Whatever the Yankees saw in Jeff Karstens appears to be coming to fruition this season in Pittsburgh as Karstens has gone 7 innings in Philadelphia allowing 3 runs and scattering 7 hits.

    He’s posting a 2.49 ERA for the year.

  117. Raul Says:

    I think the Astros got way too much for Bourn and Pence.

  118. Cameron Says:

    I wouldn’t count on that being an everyday sort of occurrence. Then again, Jered Weaver’s ERA is STILL under 2, so weird shit could happen this year.

    Oh, and Ryan Voglesong has pitched enough innings to qualify for the NL ERA title, which he leads. Good on you, man.

  119. Cameron Says:

    Dude, the highlight of the Bourn package was Jordan Schafer, and he’s a bum.

  120. Raul Says:

    So is Michael Bourn.

  121. Chuck Says:

    “And the Indians traded everyone for Ubaldo Jimenez. I got a cool $100 says Cleveland will spin him off to another team next year.”

    Good call, Raul, I had the same thought.

    Let’s get an account over at Bleacher Report, we’ll make a fortune off those clowns.

    (Keep your mouth shut, John, and we’ll cut you in)

  122. Chuck Says:

    First ML homer for Jason Kipnis.

  123. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Chuck

    Very quietly, Jordan Zimmermann is putting up a nice season in Washington.

    3.12 ERA over 130 innings.

  124. Cameron Says:

    Actually, Bourn’s on kind of a tear this season. .303/.363/.403 with 39 steals and his usual gold glove defense.

    His bat’s finally catching up to his legs. Good pickup for Atlanta.

  125. Raul Says:

    Word is the Red Sox traded for Erik Bedard

  126. Cameron Says:

    They didn’t get Rich Harden… So they trade for Erik Bedard? Are they trying to stock up on Disabled List Frequent Flier Miles?

  127. Raul Says:

    Marlins at Braves.

    Florida leads 3-1 in the bottom of the 8th.
    Mike Stanton and Jason Heyward are both 2-4, but clearly one player is having a much better season than the other.

  128. Raul Says:

    Well the Red Sox have injury concerns with nearly their entire roster.

    A number of them could go on the DL in the blink of an eye.

    Clay Buccholz
    Andrew Miller
    Josh Beckett
    Daisuke Matsuzaka
    Jacoby Ellsbury
    Dustin Pedroia
    Adrian Gonzalez
    Carl Crawford
    JD Drew

    I mean all of them have been injured within the past year or are currently hurt.

  129. Bob Says:

    Actually, I like the Bedard trade. And the fact they gave up a catcher could be a sign they will sign their 1st round pick. I am giddy.

  130. Raul Says:

    Michael Bourn has 28 infield hits, which leads the National League.

    I’m gonna go ahead and bet he’ll quickly go back to being the shitty hitter he’s always been.

  131. Bob Says:

    Actually, the details are still emerging.

  132. Raul Says:

    A few days ago I noted that had the Kansas City Royals swept the Cleveland Indians, it would have marked the first time they posted consecutive winning months of baseball since 2008-2009.

    They ended up taking 2 of 3 of the Indians, and would have swept them had it not been for another epic implosion from closer Joakim Soria.

  133. Raul Says:

    From ESPN:

    The Boston Red Sox have traded for Seattle Mariners starter Erik Bedard, a major league source tells ESPNBoston.com’s Gordon Edes.

    The three-team deal also involving the Los Angeles Angels was agreed upon just moments before the 4 p.m. ET deadline, according to the source.

    In the trade, Bedard and reliever Josh Fields are headed to Boston; Angels outfield prospect Trayvon Robinson is going to Seattle; Red Sox prospects Tim Federowicz, Juan Rodriguez and Stephen Fife are headed to the Angels; and Boston prospect Chih Hsien Chiang is headed for Seattle.

  134. Bob Says:

    Chiang is a very good prospect.

  135. Bob Says:

    Actually, it is Lin, not Chiang. Hot Damn.

  136. Cameron Says:

    You mean Dodgers prospect Trayon… Wait, the Mariners got Trayvon Robinson? Holy shit. And Chiang?

    The Ms made out like bandits.

  137. Bob Says:

    i do not think its Chiang, I think it is Lin. Way too many beers today!!!

  138. Raul Says:

    Fuckin A.

    Karsten’s performance was blown.

    The Phillies win it behind 2 Ibanez homers and his game-winning hit in the 10th.

  139. Raul Says:

    A bit of confusion.
    To clear it up.

    The Mariners get:
    OF – Trayvon Robinson
    OF – Chih Hsien Chiang

    The Dodgers get:
    C – Tim Federowicz
    RP – Juan Rodriguez
    SP – Stephen Fife

    The Red Sox get:
    RP – Josh Fields
    SP – Erik Bedard

  140. Raul Says:

    Sorry about that.

    Josh Fields is a 3B, not a reliever, obviously.

  141. Cameron Says:

    3rd baseman, reliever, bat boy, he still sucks no matter what you make him do.

    Clear winner to me is Seattle. Trayvon’s gonna be a LF for now with Death to Flying Things in CF, but he’s still a hell of a player.

  142. Cameron Says:

    Holy shit, check out Trayvon’s line in Triple A this year.

    .293/.375/.563

    And he’s a center fielder putting that line up.

  143. JohnBowen Says:

    “I DISAGREE! A prospect is just that A PROPECT! And 90 percent of prospects never pan out or make it to the big leagues. A PROVEN Major League player is AWAYS more valuable than a couple of “prospects”. It’s like in the oil business, Would your rather have a well that is already producing oil, of some land with the “potential” for lots of oil? You can count on one hand the number of “prospects” the Phillies have traded away that went on to be big stars. I would never hesitate to trade prospects for a proven major leaguer with many years a head of him.”

    From my article on Bleacher Report.

    Pretty typical east coast sports fan.

  144. Cameron Says:

    Wow… What an overly defensive dumbass.

  145. JohnBowen Says:

    Michael Bourn isn’t a big-time hitter, but he more than makes up for it with speed and defense.

  146. Chuck Says:

    “Josh Fields is a 3B, not a reliever, obviously.”

    Josh Fields is, in fact, a reliever.

    He was the Mariners first round pick in 2008 from the U of Georgia.

  147. Raul Says:

    I wonder if I should start saying Propect from now on.

    That might be funnier than the Natinals to me.

  148. Raul Says:

    My bad.

    You’re right Chuck
    It’s a different Josh Fields.

  149. Raul Says:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=fields003jos

  150. Cameron Says:

    He’s not a big-time hitter like John said. However, he’s picked up some plate discipline he didn’t use to have. His OBP is .375 right now, and that’s better than I ever remember him being at getting on-base. Though I think he may lose some extra base power without being able to lace things into that dead zone that is Minute Maid Park’s center field.

  151. Cameron Says:

    It’s .363, my bad. I still got tripped up on Trayvon Robinson. However, it’s WAY up from the .331 he posted before this year.

  152. Raul Says:

    Yeah I’m just gonna go ahead and refer back to Post #130 that says Michael Bourn has 28 infield hits as the reason for his good average and higher OBP this year.

    He’s got 38 walks on the year.

    A fucking regular Jason Giambi he is not.

  153. Cameron Says:

    …Wow, take away the 28 infield hits and Bourn’s batting average drops to .237.

  154. JohnBowen Says:

    Well yeah. Speed is an essential aspect of his game. But infield hits still count, I’m pretty sure.

  155. Raul Says:

    So let me get this straight.

    As much sucking as the Mariners are doing, they probably project to have:

    LF – Trayvon Robinson
    CF – Franklin Gutierrez
    RF – Ichiro Suzuki

    1B – Justin Smoak
    2B – Dustin Ackley
    3B – Carlos Triunfel (or..anybody)
    SS – Nick Franklin
    C – Ralph Henriquez? (No idea here.)
    DH – Chih Hsien Chang

  156. Raul Says:

    Yeah, infield hits still count.

    And if you’re counting on a player getting a bunch of infield hits, you’re a dumb ass.

  157. Cameron Says:

    I think they might resign Olivo or get a veteran stopgap and they might stick with Mangini at third, but yeah. Pretty much. Along with King Felix and Michael Pineda with Danny Hultzen in the wings.

  158. Raul Says:

    They have to keep Felix at this point.

  159. Cameron Says:

    That, or demand a king’s ransom of ML-ready talent. Like, bigger than what Colorado got for Jiminez and they all need to slot in that rotation.

  160. JohnBowen Says:

    “And if you’re counting on a player getting a bunch of infield hits, you’re a dumb ass.”

    Counting on a fast person to leg out infield hits?

    Yeah, no idea how anyone would make that mistake.

  161. Chuck Says:

    Hunter Pence said he didn’t want to leave Houston, but the smile on his face when he was introduced the other night in Philly said otherwise.

  162. Chuck Says:

    “Yeah, no idea how anyone would make that mistake.”

    1.2 trillion games, John.

  163. Raul Says:

    Really John?

    Is admitting you’re wrong that hard?

    Michael Bourn sucks. This season is the kind of thing that makes you saberheads jizz in your pants. A guy having an outlier year based on some lucky shit happening.

    Good lord. I figured this thing would be right up your alley.

  164. JohnBowen Says:

    “Michael Bourn has 28 infield hits, which leads the National League.
    I’m gonna go ahead and bet he’ll quickly go back to being the shitty hitter he’s always been.”

    In 2010, Michael Bourn had 40 infield hits.
    In 2009, Michael Bourn had 46 infield hits.
    In 2008, Michael Bourn had 33 infield hits (in just over 500 PA).

    Seems like the fast guy getting infield hits is actually kind of a regular thing.

    Which, ya know, is common sense.

  165. JohnBowen Says:

    Also, he’s an outstanding defensive CF.

    But I forgot, speed and defense don’t actually count in baseball.

  166. Raul Says:

    The guy is Brian Hunter reincarnated.

    You gotta be kidding me, John.

    Michael Bourn sucks. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

    You’re smoking the same shit that made you think the Athletics would actually hit better than they did last year.

  167. Cameron Says:

    I always thought Michael Bourn was a good player. Not a good hitter, but a good player, even back in Philly.

  168. JohnBowen Says:

    Gee Raul.

    Is it so hard to admit when you’re wrong?

    Just because a guy doesn’t club HR doesn’t mean he sucks.

    You guys have the baseball knowledge of 3 year old girls. BALL GO FAR!

  169. Raul Says:

    Every time I see a Milwaukee Brewers box score that has “Parra” under the Home Runs section, I keep thinking it’s Manny Parra, not Gerardo Parra.

  170. Raul Says:

    When a guy gets base hits on balls that go 60 feet, he sucks.

    He sucks a lot.
    As evidenced by his entire career up to this point.

  171. JohnBowen Says:

    Brian Hunter’s career line: .264/.313/.346, for a rock solid 72 OPS+.

    Since 2009, Bourn has hit .279/.348/.373 for a 98 OPS+. So he’s basically a league average hitter, who steals a ton of bases and plays incredible defense.

  172. Cameron Says:

    Or he’s able to hit balls in the dirt and leg them out with some consistency. Do I count on a guy to hit 30-40 infield hits a year? If he’s done it three years in a row, yeah. Kinda.

    He also routinely leads the league in steals and is arguably the best defensive outfielder in the NL. He pretty much destroys any fielding metric you can throw at him with his glove.

    Of course, you know, I actually watch Michael Bourn play instead of bitching at guys I think suck because they hit 5 homers a year.

  173. Raul Says:

    Cherry pickin like a muuuuug.

    Anyway, I love that Guillen stared Weaver down.
    That shit was hilarious to me.

  174. JohnBowen Says:

    “When a guy gets base hits on balls that go 60 feet, he sucks.”

    When a guy gets hits, period, he’s good.

    As evidenced by the fact that one of (if not the) the best-run organizations in the game saw fit to surrender FOUR players for him.

  175. Cameron Says:

    Wow, I defend Hunter Pence from John and Michael Bourn from Raul.

    …The fuck did I become an Astros fan? And with those two gone, why am I still an Astros fan?

  176. Cameron Says:

    John, there’s a difference between the package Houston got for Pence and the bpackage Houston got for Bourn.

    The best player they got for Bourn was Jordan Schafer. The worst player they got for Pence has a brighter future than Schafer.

  177. Raul Says:

    $100 says if Michael Bourn is still even on the Braves at this time next year, he’ll be on the bench.

    Book that shit.

  178. JohnBowen Says:

    “Do I count on a guy to hit 30-40 infield hits a year? If he’s done it three years in a row, yeah. Kinda.”

    Exactly. Opposite of luck.

    I love the long socks that Holliday wears. Cool stripes.

  179. Cameron Says:

    What’s his competition in Atlanta? Nate McClouth? Yeah, if he’s benched for that sack of shit, I’ll laugh.

    And Holliday seriously looks like he should’ve stayed a football player. The guy’s huge.

  180. JohnBowen Says:

    “$100 says if Michael Bourn is still even on the Braves at this time next year, he’ll be on the bench.”

    No, he won’t.

    Have you ever even seen him play baseball?

  181. Raul Says:

    LOL

    Have YOU ever even seen him play baseball?

    Hahahaha.

  182. Cameron Says:

    If infield hits don’t count, Ichiro must be the worst player ever in Raul’s eyes.

  183. Raul Says:

    Good lord. Mike Cameron sucks.

    Get it together, Florida.

  184. Cameron Says:

    I forgot, how old is Cameron? 38? 39? I’ll give him credit for still being in the league at that age. …Not much else, but I’ll give him credit for staying in there.

  185. Raul Says:

    Michael Bourn would suck 20 dicks a year for the rest of his life if he could have Ichiro’s career.

  186. Chuck Says:

    John, I have to ask..

    In high school, were you like 5′4″, 120 pounds and slapped his way to a varsity letter?

    The reason I’m asking is because I was.

    I hit sixteen homers in my high school career, in about 90 games total.

    One my freshman year, three my sophmore year, seven my junior year, and five my senior year.

    The reason my senior year was less was pitcher respect, and probably had an impact to why I wasn’t drafted because I wasn’t smart enough to adjust.

    I also walked more as a senior than as a junior for the same reason.

    I’m not afraid to admit as a freshman there were times I went to the plate looking to walk because I was intimidated by the pitcher, I knew I couldn’t hit him.

    As I got older, those fears went away because I had had success against good pitchers.

    Understand..I wasn’t a very good player. I was draft eligible for three years and wasn’t selected in any..my pro opportunity came as a free agent.

    The difference in Jacoby Ellsbury the last five years and being an All-Star this year is expanding on his ability.

    Brett Gardner sucks.

    Unless he does the same thing Ellsbury did, he’ll be working at Wal-Mart in two years.

    As you obviously know from playing and seeing 1.2 trillion games, you pitch a speed guy the reverse of a, shall we say, good hitter.

    You pitch to the barrel because you know he hits with his hands and unless you make a serious error, you won’t get hurt. Let him slap the ball to short, or to short center in the air..doing me a favor.

    I still don’t think Ellsbury is a very good player and this year is clearly a fluke, but he’s obviously surpassed Gardner because he’s made the necessary adjustments.

  187. Cameron Says:

    True. Bourn is about on the same level of those guys, though with less power than Ellsbury, and has the same speed. The thing that makes me like Bourn the best out of them though is that he’s a good outfielder. He doesn’t rely on his legs only, he actually goes straight for the ball and he knows good routes in the outfield. He also has the best arm out of the three, but that’s pretty weak competition.

  188. JohnBowen Says:

    “Brett Gardner sucks.”

    No.

    He doesn’t.

    You only say that because he doesn’t hit HR.

    Same with Bourn.

    Did Kenny Lofton suck also?

  189. Raul Says:

    Cubs vs Cardinals in a Sunday game that couldn’t have 2 less-interesting starters.

    Ryan Dempster vs Jake Westbrook.

    This is like the “Pitchers Who Didn’t Amount To Shit” Bowl.

  190. Raul Says:

    LOL

    Michael Bourn is not Kenny Lofton.
    Get the fuck outta here.

  191. JohnBowen Says:

    John: Just because a player gets infield hits doesn’t mean he sucks. Kenny Lofton, for example.
    Raul: Are you comparing Michael Bourn to Kenny Lofton.
    John: …no.

  192. Raul Says:

    Thanks for that clarification, John.

  193. Cameron Says:

    Bourn isn’t Kenny Lofton, Lofton was a better hitter, easily. Still, Bourn’s a guy I like. Personally, I think he’s good. He just makes playing ball look easy in the field. You watch him in the outfield and he’s not even trying. In the good way, though. You know, someone who just tracks shit down naturally. He’s fun to watch.

  194. Raul Says:

    We’re spending way too many posts talking about this worthless asshole.

    Anyway, Jeremy Hellickson is the 1st rookie pitcher thus far to reach 10 wins.

  195. Cameron Says:

    Really? I thought the way that Pineda bent the AL over his knee and mercilessly punished it that he reached that a while ago. I need to check the leaderboards every now and then.

  196. JohnBowen Says:

    I would say Hellickson has taken over the lead in the ROY race, though Pineda is leading the AL in K/9.

  197. Cameron Says:

    I’d cast my vote for Pineda still, just because he’s the better pitcher. If Pineda had Hellickson’s run support, he’s a Cy Young candidate.

  198. Raul Says:

    Not sure if the Rays will shut him down, but Hellickson has a shot at 15 wins this year.

    How many rookie pitchers in the last 10 years have had 15 wins?
    Mark Prior had 18 in 2003 but he wasn’t a rookie.

  199. JohnBowen Says:

    Pineda has a 105 ERA+. Come on, that’s not a Cy Young candidate.

    His peripherals are outstanding. Low WHIP, high K rate, solid K/BB. So that would suggest that he’ll improve substantially.

  200. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, his ERA’s really ballooned in this second half, I’ll admit that.

    And you can’t say a 105 ERA+ isn’t Cy worthy after guys like Vukovich and Colon have won.

  201. Chuck Says:

    “Did Kenny Lofton suck also?”

    Let me preference this comment by saying I’m as sober as a judge.

    You’re a complete retard if you’re comparing Brett Gardner to Kenny Lofton.

    Really, John, was it really your intent to go there?

  202. JohnBowen Says:

    I can’t search rookie seasons per se, but I can search first overall season.

    Dice-K won 15 in 2007, but that doesn’t really count. Before that, you have to go all the way back to CC Sabathia in 2001. He went 17-5 behind some monstrous run support. Freddy Garcia won 17 in 1999, and before that, you have to go back to Teddy Higuera in 1985.

    Justin Verlander won 17 in 2006 and won the ROY. Jason Jennings won 16 in 2002 and also won it. The late Jeriome Robertson won 15 games in 2003, but was atrocious. Didn’t even qualify for the ERA title and had a 5.10 ERA.

  203. JohnBowen Says:

    “You’re a complete retard if you’re comparing Brett Gardner to Kenny Lofton.”

    Holy shit.

    Do you even speak American English?

    The fact that a player gets a lot of infield hits and doesn’t hit a ton of HR doesn’t mean he sucks.

    Kenny Lofton is an example of a player who didn’t hit HR and had a lot of infield hits, and had an outstanding career in large part because of speed and defense.

    Brett Gardner has also been outstanding. Not as outstanding as Kenny Lofton. Not even close. At no point was I comparing those two players.

    But you just hate Gardner because you didn’t think he’d be good before, didn’t think he would start and he’s on his way to back-to-back 5 WAR seasons while Eric fucking Byrnes, who you thought the Yankees would sign to play LF instead of Gardner, sits behind a fucking desk on MLB Network shouting like a buffoon.

  204. Cameron Says:

    An entertaining buffoon.

  205. Chuck Says:

    And in unrelated news..

    In reward for having three of his worst starts of the year in the last two weeks, the Yankees have promoted Manny Banuelos to Triple A, while essentially bitch slapping a far better pitcher in Dellin Betances.

    There are also unsubstantiated reports the Yanks will call up Jesus Montero this week, probably by Wednesday.

    Why?

  206. Cameron Says:

    Because… Orange. Makes as much sense as any other argument.

  207. JohnBowen Says:

    He’s been hot of late, hasn’t he?

  208. Raul Says:

    Why call him up now?

    The time to do it was in May when Posada was seriously sucking.

  209. Chuck Says:

    You’re the one who mentioned Kenny Lofton, not me.

    If you had said Mickey Rivers or Omar Moreno, fine, point made.

    Brett Gardner starts for the Yankees for the same reason Yuniesky Betancourt starts for the Brewers.

    Good teams can afford to bury bad players because of their overall talent level.

    In the American League, with the DH, Brett Gardner is the pitcher’s spot.

    If he gets on, great, if not, so what.

  210. Raul Says:

    Actually Posada has gone back to sucking in July, so whatever.

  211. Cameron Says:

    Yeah… But is he seriously gonna take Russel Martin’s job? Montero’s there to ride the pine.

  212. JohnBowen Says:

    Martin was off to a hot start, but has really been shitting the bed since May, at least with the bat.

    Starlin Castro with a ground-rule double to put the Cubs up 1-0.

    Jim Edmonds back in the day would have gotten that shit.

  213. Raul Says:

    Montero wouldn’t be called up to catch.
    He’d be called up to DH.

  214. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah, since May 1, Martin has a .601 OPS.

    Outstanding.

  215. Cameron Says:

    I’d still have Martin behind the plate than Montero. Then again, I’d rather have Edgar Martinez now in catcher’s gear then Montero on his best day.

  216. Cameron Says:

    hell, there’s two people in my room right now who are a better catcher than Jesus Montero.

    …Oh no, I don’t have company, my cat’s just sleeping.

  217. Chuck Says:

    “Then again, I’d rather have Edgar Martinez now in catcher’s gear then Montero on his best day.”

    Just checking..you know Martinez wasn’t a catcher, right?

  218. JohnBowen Says:

    Jake Westbrook had a no-hitter through 5 innings, but has really imploded in the 6th, allowing 3 hits, 3 walks, and 4 runs.

    Alfonso Soriano’s up now, so maybe that’s the confidence boost that Westbrook needs.

  219. JohnBowen Says:

    @217, I’m pretty sure Cam’s just trying to hammer home the point about how bad Montero is defensively.

  220. Cameron Says:

    I was. Edgar’s my go-to for bad defenders.

  221. Chuck Says:

    Why call up someone to ride the pine?

    Even if they sent down Cervelli, there’s still no AB’s.

    Would the Yankees seriously let Montero go in a waiver deal?

    I doubt it, but, then again, his value is lower than it’s ever been.

    Montero for Mark Buerhle in a straight waiver trade?

    I could see it.

  222. Cameron Says:

    If you wanna pay him $15MM in an auto-guaranteed option as soon as you get him. I’d rather take a flier on him in the offseason and see what the price drop on him is.

  223. Raul Says:

    Mark Buehrle is the kind of guy that has good seasons and the moment you get him, he shits the bed and fucks your wife.

    Not as bad as Kevin Brown…but pretty close to Derek Lowe.

  224. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, Buerhle hasn’t been that good for a few years now.

  225. Chuck Says:

    Buerhle isn’t the point.

    Calling up Montero is.

    Pay attention.

  226. Raul Says:

    You’ll see…

  227. Raul Says:

    They gotta call up this asshole sooner or later.

    As I’ve stated before, I hope Montero proves me wrong.

  228. Raul Says:

    Saw this:

    “Vinny Scafuto says:
    July 31, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    What are the odds that he gets Joba’d and turned into a LOOGY at some point for the rest of the season and the playoffs?”

    I’d say about zero percent.

  229. JohnBowen Says:

    Rafael Furcal is making his Cardinal debut. Got a standing-O.

    He’s hitting .197 LOL.

  230. JohnBowen Says:

    Wait…was Vinny talking about…Montero?

  231. Raul Says:

    About Banuelos

  232. JohnBowen Says:

    Ohhh. Still dumb, but ok.

  233. Cameron Says:

    And Bobby Abreu’s 2012 option vested today. Next year, they’re the new Cubs in terms of “holy shit, what were you thinking” contracts.

  234. Raul Says:

    Yeah but Abreu got the game-winning walks against the Tigers today.

    What’s that?
    The Tigers won?

    Fantastic.

  235. JohnBowen Says:

    Abreu’s an overpay, but it’s the Wells deal that the Angels traded for where they have to really look at themselves and wonder.

  236. JohnBowen Says:

    Also the Hunter deal. Fuck the heck.

  237. JohnBowen Says:

    Speaking of shitty deals, Alfonso Soriano just hit a 2-R homer to add some insurance to the Cubs lead.

  238. Raul Says:

    Then there’s Carl Crawford and his MVP-like 77 OPS+

  239. Chuck Says:

    Worst case, Banuelos is a LOOGY..best case..Mariano’s replacement.

    To think he’s going to be the next Johan or Ron Guidry, sorry, time to stop fondling Keith Law.

  240. Cameron Says:

    You couldn’t pay me enough to fondle Keith Law.

  241. Raul Says:

    He doesn’t have enough command of his fastball, nor the quality curveball to be Johan Santana.

    Ron Guidry?
    LOL now that’s a funny comparison.

    LOOGY? Ha.
    The Yankees never promote anyone, let alone trust them in the playoffs.

    The way the Yankees are run, Banuelos might fuck around and actually perform well in the bullpen, and you’ll end up in 2012 with the same stupid Joba Chamberlain situation.

  242. JohnBowen Says:

    Cardinals lose!

    Redbirds are now 2.5 back of the Brewers, but have an opportune time to make that up, with the 3-game series in Miller Park this week.

  243. Cameron Says:

    Go Pirates.

  244. Raul Says:

    MLB scheduled the season so that September ends up with every team playing like 20 games within their own division.

    So frankly it doesn’t mean shit if a team is 5, 6, 7 games out right now.

  245. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah. Milwaukee and St. Louis face off 12 more times each and Pittsburgh has 10 more games against both teams.

    So, this is gonna be an exciting race.

    Also, Cleveland has 12 more games against Detroit.

  246. Cameron Says:

    At this point, KC’s so far out of it that we’re just waiting for September so we can see the guys like the Montgomery’s get called up and see a taste of the future.

  247. JohnBowen Says:

    Well you’ve gotta love what you’ve gotten from Hosmer so far.

    Moustakis has been kinda underwhelming, but that’ll change.

  248. Raul Says:

    So Ubaldo pitches, what? Three times against them?

    Shit, for what Cleveland gave up to get him, he better.

  249. Cameron Says:

    Most definitely, and I wasn’t expecting Moose to get hot right off the bat. I also expected to see a lot of his power turn to gap power because that’s what KC does to guys. He’s been decent enough.

    Crow’s been good, Duffy has me somewhat worried with his control issues, it’s been a mixed bag.

  250. Raul Says:

    Hosmer has been solid for a rookie.

    Is he going to be a 30 homer guy? Probably not.
    He’s doing much better at home than away.

    Interesting splits.
    In the 16 games since the break (not including today), he’s hitting .348/.403/.530.

    I suppose he could be a Ryan Zimmerman-type bat. Maybe a bit better with the protection he should have in that lineup.

  251. Raul Says:

    I really hate the NY Post, however:

    Colorado had requested Jesus Montero, Dellin Betances and Ivan Nova. The Yankees not only refused that package, but also refused to include any of the three players in their offer. They did so largely because they had asked Colorado in mid-week if they could perform a physical on Jimenez if a deal was agreed to, and the Rockies refused, The Post has learned.

    So the Yankees bowed out. The Yankees claim they made no proposals. But Colorado sources said the Yankees at least insinuated they would do a package built around Phil Hughes, with the idea of dealing their troubled righty for Colorado’s.

    Except the Rockies did not see Jimenez as troubled. He might not be pitching like he did early last season, when he was good enough to be the NL All-Star starter, but he has been far better than Hughes. This brought what already had been uncomfortable talks between the Yankees and Rockies to their nadir.

    The sides had been disputing Jimenez’s worth, with the Rockies selling him as an ace and the Yankees countering he was more a No. 3, especially in the AL East. Both teams wondered if the other would blink in desperation. Neither did, so the Rockies moved to the best offer, which was from Cleveland.

  252. Cameron Says:

    That Cleveland offer was better than anything the Yankees could’ve offered.

  253. Raul Says:

    Not the point.

  254. Cameron Says:

    I understand. I think the main thing I got from this is that the Yankees really overvalue their own talent. While Jiminez doesn’t really stack up to the other aces in the division when you consider average performance, I still see him as better than a number three. I wonder what’s gonna happen with Phil Hughes going forward after this little revelation. They see him as a number three? Behind WHO!?

    Though Cleveland did offer a royal haul, when did they first hear that offer?

  255. Raul Says:

    I’m not sure the Yankees overvalue their talent as much as it seems.

    The Rockies wouldn’t let the Yankees put Jimenez through a physical? That’s shady and that’s bullshit.

    Is it really a stretch to say Jimenez is a 3rd starter in the AL East?
    He’s been a 2nd tier guy for a year now and there are big concerns about his delivery.

    Considering what Seattle received this past weekend for Doug Fister and Erik Bedard, the Yankees were right to balk at Nova, Betances and Montero for Jimenez.

    No fucking way.

  256. Cameron Says:

    He’s a good power guy and you gotta remember he pitches in Coors Field, so that’s gonna distort some numbers. He’d probably be a #2 on most teams. He’s arguably an ace on Toronto or Baltimore, but on the contender’s he’s a #2 (possible #3 in Boston).

    The main thing wasn’t so much was the fact that Jiminez was to go through a physical so much as undergoing a shoulder MRI. Getting that procedure done probably would’ve stretched things out past the deadline and Jiminez would have to go through waivers.

  257. Raul Says:

    It takes half a week to get a shoulder MRI?

  258. Cameron Says:

    A week and a half? The deadline was yesterday.

  259. Cameron Says:

    Oh, now I see what you’re saying.

  260. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Rockies wouldn’t let the Yankees put Jimenez through a physical? That’s shady and that’s bullshit.”

    I agree.

    “Is it really a stretch to say Jimenez is a 3rd starter in the AL East?
    He’s been a 2nd tier guy for a year now and there are big concerns about his delivery.”

    I read somewhere that Jimenez has lost something like 3 mph off his fastball so perhaps. And the physical thing? Yeah. Something shady going on. Plus you really have to ask why the hell the Rockies were actively shopping him if they thought he was alright. He’s under team control through 2014 to a very team-friendly deal. The Rockies aren’t in contention this year, but they could very easily be in contention over the next three years.

    From 2008-2010, Jimenez had a 3.43 ERA and 1.267 WHIP while pitching in Coors Field, the most hitter friendly park in the world. I consider that an ace. But he’s been far from it this season.

  261. Raul Says:

    Yeah,

    The article says they discussed having a physical mid-week. They arguably could have worked out an agreement by Thursday. Ubaldo would have had the MRI/Physical that night or Friday.

  262. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, I’ll admit that’s a bit shady. That’s probably why they called someone like Cleveland. They’re going all-in to keep this hot season going and they weren’t gonna let this go.

    Though with their top two arms lost, I think Cleveland may just keep Ubaldo this offseason. I could see it going either way, depends on if they think they can contend next season or not. With that Kipnis-Santana-Chisenhall core in place, I’d gamble on keeping Ubaldo.

  263. Raul Says:

    Cleveland benefited from a really shitty start by Chicago and Detroit.

    They won’t be in contention next year. They’d be wise to flip Jimenez to some other team for a couple of low-level power arms.

    Possibly to a team like Oakland or Tampa.

  264. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think Jiminez would land two guys from Oakland because they’re good. The only real live arms they have are Cahill and Gonzalez, and you couldn’t get both for Jiminez.

    Though you may be able to talk Tampa out of Wade Davis and Jeff Niemann. They’d be good middle-of-the-rotation guys, but Cleveland really doesn’t have an ace. Though Justin Masterson looks like their best bet.

  265. Cameron Says:

    Texas is gonna lose CJ Wilson to free agency, possibly Matt Harrison and Derek Holland?

  266. Raul Says:

    I was thinking more along the lines of low-level minor league power arms.

    They’re going to regret moving Pomeranz.

  267. Cameron Says:

    And I was thinkign more ML arms to help them stay at least a borderline contender. Tomlin, Carrasco, and Carmona are decent to good, but you can’t use a three man rotation, especially not with talent like that.

    Toronto doesn’t really have an ace either, and the SP depth to not really hurt giving up a couple of guys. Knowing Anthopolous, he’d still find a way to make the Indians look like they got fleeced.

  268. JohnBowen Says:

    Cleveland has a great young core in place. I could definitely see them contending beyond this year.

  269. Cameron Says:

    The Phillies haven’t given up Brody Colvin yet. If Cleveland does trdae Jiminez, what are the odds Philly finds some way to completely deplete their farm system?

  270. Cameron Says:

    Losing Pomeranz and White really hurt them though. While the offense is good, that pitching lost a lot of punch with those two leaving.

  271. Lefty33 Says:

    “The Phillies haven’t given up Brody Colvin yet. If Cleveland does trdae Jiminez, what are the odds Philly finds some way to completely deplete their farm system?”

    You really think that Philly has depleted their farm system?

  272. Cameron Says:

    No, I meant if Jiminez does become available, what do you think the chances of Philly just going for broke and giving up their last prospect worth a damn, Brody Colvin, is?

  273. Lefty33 Says:

    Zero.

    Philly will still have Halladay and Lee under contract for a few years and I would assume that they will back up the Brinks truck and dump as much cash as it takes to sign Hamles and if Worley continues to be consistent, Ubaldo is really irrelevant.

    The Phillies do have guys other than Colvin that are worth something.
    He’s just the name that gets the hype and that the organization pushes.

  274. Cameron Says:

    Oh hey, Vance Worley. Thanks for making the package clearer.

    They didn’t really need a lot of the guys they’ve traded for, there’s precedent for “what the fuck?” trades there.

  275. Mike Felber Says:

    Food for thought.

    http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-07-31/nfls-supremacy-over-baseball-with-fans-couldnt-be-more-clear?ncid=webmail5

  276. Cameron Says:

    I think that may just be bad timing. If it were an average season, we’d have seen this shit months ago. With the lockout, the entire offseason’s taking about the span of a week. This leads to entire rosters can get turned over before Brian Sabean picks up the phone.

    Normal season? We’d be dominating the news.

  277. Bob Says:

    Bucholz has a stress fracture in his lower back. Just bite me.

  278. Raul Says:

    Football is a lot more boring than people make it out to be.

    Punts, field goals, a million commercials and time outs…

    I’m a lot more excited about the Premier League soccer season starting in England in 2 weeks than I am for the NFL.

  279. JohnBowen Says:

    As opposed to soccer which is kicking, kicking, kicking, no scoring, and finally a penalty shootout that is nothing like the actual game itself. Oh, and the fake injuries.

  280. Chuck Says:

    Wow, Bob, good thing Theo went out and picked up Eric Bedard.

  281. Raul Says:

    Penalty shootouts occur after 120 minutes of soccer.

    The entire world is against you in the debate between soccer and football, John.

    But it’s ok. You don’t have to like it.

  282. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Chuck.

    Bedard might be Ben Sheets’ long lost brother.

  283. Raul Says:

    Happy 44th birthday, Gregg Jeffries!

    On December 11, 1991 you were traded from the Mets with Kevin McReynolds and Keith Miller to the Royals for Bill Pecota and Bret Saberhagen.

    You would spend just 1 season with the Royals before being spun to St. Louis for Felix Jose and Craig Wilson.

    Although he wouldn’t win a whole lot, Saberhagen would have 3.5 very solid years for the Mets.

  284. JohnBowen Says:

    Saberhagen barely pitched in ‘92 and ‘93, but he was having an outstanding season in 1994 before the strike hit. His 0.7 BB/9 that season is (I think) an all-time record.

  285. Chuck Says:

    “The entire world is against you in the debate..”

    Not the first time.

  286. JohnBowen Says:

    Eric Byrnes would love it if Chuck were right once in a while.

  287. Chuck Says:

    Statute of limitations has expired on Eric Byrnes, John.

  288. Raul Says:

    He was right about Pedro Alvarez and I think Jason Bay.
    And David Wright.
    And Mark Reynolds.

    That is, if I recall correctly.

  289. JohnBowen Says:

    It takes a real asshole to proclaim victory about a player being finished when that player goes on to have a 130 OPS+ at 3B and hit 29 HR.

    And for fuck’s sake, he’s been hurt this year.

    Did someone predict that?

  290. Bob Says:

    Now that I think about it, Sheets and Bedard could be related, although Sheets has a gold medal to his name.

  291. Raul Says:

    I don’t remember us saying Wright would be “finished”.

    More along the lines of “if he doesn’t make X-adjustment, he’s in for trouble”.

    And once that BABIP (I knew you’d like that) dipped from the .400 he was hitting, he looks a lot more like Eric Hosmer than George Brett.

  292. JohnBowen Says:

    So David Wright sucks because he’s…not George Brett? George Brett is probably the second-best 3B of all-time.

  293. Raul Says:

    I said David Wright sucks?

    John, you’re the king of putting things in people’s mouths that they never said.

    Just like every time someone craps on a player, you start bringing up “team-hurting walks” and “he doesn’t look like a baseball player”.

    Get a grip, brother.

  294. Raul Says:

    I keep forgetting what a great movie The Big Lebowski is.

    Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax!

  295. Chuck Says:

    “It takes a real asshole to proclaim victory about a player being finished..”

    Wow, Raul, I wouldn’t let him talk to me that way.

  296. Raul Says:

    LOL

    I AM an a-hole, Chuck.

    I can’t really be upset about that sort of thing.
    :-)

  297. JohnBowen Says:

    Let’s just be honest for a second guys.

    We’re all assholes.

    Except Cameron, he should really be meaner.

  298. Chuck Says:

    So true, John, so true.

  299. Raul Says:

    Cameron should be the meanest sucker around.

    The guy is forced to eat microwaved hot dogs and watch the Royals for the last 15 years.

    It’s only through sheer luck that he hasn’t killed anyone yet.

  300. Cameron Says:

    I have no idea how I stay so nice sometimes, but I’m grateful for it.

  301. Mike Felber Says:

    Please stay that way. if you will permit the presumption Cameron, sometimes you have tried to channel a mean machismo that does not suit you. Stay away from the dark side!

    Saw it once, never loved T.B.L., though this is mainly subjective preference. Yet the “religion” of Dudeism is a very clever thing-this atheist became a “Priest” in it. OK, it took about 1 minute online. Watching Doc. re: Thrilla in Manilla. Frazier may have been bitter, but Ali for all his brilliance did betray a man who endlessly defended & testified on his behalf to get his boxing license back gave him money, Frazier’s kids were beaten up constantly & called uncle Tom, dog killed, family needed police protection…

    Ali was not dumb, he knew the effect on Joe, & whatever combination of internalized racism & Nation of Islam hate & all for PR, continued being cruel. It contributed to toxic hate. Ali spoke about talking at a KKK rally & they liked him ’cause he was a fervent segregationist too! Joe was the one working hard in the fields at 7, & Ali acts like he is an Uncle Tom. He eventually apologized, but some things demand more than a perfunctory “sorry”.

  302. Raul Says:

    Maybe it’s just me…because I just woke up from a 4 hour nap, but that post was interesting as hell…even if it seems like rambling.

  303. Mike Felber Says:

    Heh, thanks Raul, I certainly can ramble. Joe also has held on to much bitterness, but Ali could have made amends directly & not waited decades to say anything publicly. A very good documentary, also interesting in its claims that Ali wanted to ‘cut the gloves off” in the 10th, & i do not believe there is any debate that he was about to quit before Joe’s corner ended it due to the beating he was taking, & was almost blind.

    But Joe absolutely would have laid down his life there, was furious & would not talk to Futch for a long time. But Futch never regretted throwing in the towel. recounted in detail 8 men killed in, or as a consequence of, the ring. But Ali collapsed right after Frazier’s corner surrendered, was pissing blood for a while after & could not walk, talk or see straight.

    Who knows what would have happened in round 15. Both were superb champions, but nobody had Joe’s heart. It is said that Tyson was a mile wide & an inch deep. But Frazier was a mile wide & a mile deep.

    True, Ali in his prime was better, too fast for Joe before his layoff. But if Ali did not do all that holding in their 2nd fight, Joe clearly wins. Ali got away with a lot of clinching.

  304. Cameron Says:

    Boxers back then made the guys today look like pussies.

    Then again, the heavyweight division back then was also worth watching. I haven’t seen many decent heavyweights roll around since the Tyson and Holyfield days.

  305. Raul Says:

    I’m loving the history lesson.

    I have this theory that boxing isn’t a big sport anymore because it’s no longer on tv.

    As I understand it, boxing used to be on traditional television. Not cable. And now the only time you see a boxing match is on HBO or Pay-Per-View.

    It’s fallen out of the public consciousness so it’s kinda hard to develop a connection and love the sport.

    UFC is on tv more than boxing. I mean, come on.

  306. Cameron Says:

    Eh, not anymore. Spike TV’s going with a more gender-neutral image and they’re ending their contract with UFC.

  307. Chuck Says:

    Did I miss something?

    How did we get to Ali/Frazier?

    Not that I’m complaining, arguably the greatest trilogy between two fighters in boxing history.

    My wife has a couple of appointments today, so I’ll catch up on some DVR’d shows. One is a 25th anniversary retrospect with Boom Boom Mancinin on the Duk Koo Kim fight.

    One of the best action fights ever, something like 13 combined knockdowns. After the fight we found out Kim died in the ring.

    It was on live TV “Wide World of Sports” or something.

    Joe Frazier would have kicked Mike Tyson’s ass with one hand tied behind his back.

  308. Mike Felber Says:

    Lol! Come on Chuck, I respect your opinion & old school regard for the Masters, but Tyson was a truly Formidable fighter during his peak. Frazier was honestly done early, Tyson due to lack of discipline & general personality problems. But in the late 80’s, Tyson was so fast, ferocious, boxed quite well, moving his upper body & head very effectively.

    I do not know who would have won between the 2 at their peaks. If Joe could survive into the later rounds, he would likely win. But Tyson not only hit real hard too, but was hard to hit. Frazier would win if he could keep it close, due to a much larger heart, but could he over come the speed & weaving differential?

  309. Raul Says:

    Based on what I can tell, Frazier was severely handicapped from eye problems and it’s possible his final 2 fights against Ali could have turned out differently if he had better vision.

    In any case, I’ve concluded for myself that while many consider Ali to be the greatest, what he did to Frazier with his gorilla and Uncle Tom comments is borderline unforgivable and insanely cruel given Frazier’s upbringing, the times and Frazier’s treatment of him privately. Muhammad Ali, to me, was the greatest alright. Greatest asshole. Fuck that guy.

  310. Cameron Says:

    Tyson in his peak years is one of the scariest motherfuckers you could ever face. It’d be a tough call. I think Smokin’ Joe was the harder hitter, but Iron Mike could get him tired out pretty fast, I don’t think it’d last long enough to give Frazier the advantage.

  311. Mike Felber Says:

    Ali did many charitable & kind things, changed & reinvigorate boxing with his unique heavyweight speed, great promotion, & had a courageous stand against serving in the war, motivated by principle. But he was in complete denial that he was only trying to hype the fights with Frazier. He clearly had some problems with cruelty & his contempt was a misplaced betrayal, could not admit losing the 1st fight, & had some warped internalized racist idea(l)s too.

    Joe had great endurance Cam, but I just don’t know if he could land enough blows. Foreman took him down 6 times in a short span, & though Tyson did not hit quite as hard, he was very fast, relentless & hard to tag with that peek a boo & bob & weave style.

    We must separate how much we like these guy’s characters from what they could actually do. I would root for Joe, but could not predict victory. One thing that would help is unlike most of Tyson’s opponents, even an older Holmes, is that nothing ever intimidated Joe.

  312. Raul Says:

    There isn’t a fighter in history that gets as shortchanged as Mike Tyson.

    Not that his career didn’t fall apart. It certainly did. Was it all his fault? In my mind, no. But he does bear responsibility for a lot of it.

    That said, Mike Tyson as a young fighter was as skilled and technically sound as any fighter. That people act like his whole career was just headhunting and slugging like he was in the mid-to-late 1990s is a distortion of the truth.

    The thing that pisses me off the most is the assumption that X-fighter would out-smart Tyson.

    Yeah, because any time a black fighter who doesn’t dance around the ring we have to assume he isn’t a smart fighter.

    I would argue Mike Tyson knows more about boxing and boxing history than any heavyweight to come through the division in decades.

  313. Raul Says:

    In other news,

    I think I’ve finally found the guys that could actually Rickroll Rick Astley.

    So Cameron…in response to Tom Jones, I give you this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLfoy2XsFw

  314. Raul Says:

    Oh, and you can’t convince Chuck of anything, Mike.

    LOL

  315. Raul Says:

    BTW,

    Montero had 3 hits last night. A homer and 2 singles. All to the left side.
    I’m fucking stunned.

  316. Chuck Says:

    “But in the late 80’s, Tyson was so fast, ferocious, boxed quite well, moving his upper body & head very effectively.”

    OK, Mike, sure, whatever you say.

  317. Mike Felber Says:

    You are correct on all Tyson & Chuck related counts Raul!

    The evidence for Tyson’s skill & mobility is only on dozens of easily available youtube videos Chuck. I cannot even fathom what part of the quote above you debate. So he was never an excellent fighter? Your gonna say what almost all heavyweights are charged with, he only fought tomato cans? The names, fight records,size & skill of many say otherwise. Like shooting fish in a barrel to name them.

    I suggest you may need a refresher course on basic logic from the masters:

    An argument is not the same as a contradiction.

    An argument is an intellectual process. A collective series of statements to establish a proposition. Contradiction is just an automatic gainsaying of the other person’s position.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

    Monty Python is an Unimpeachable source!

  318. Chuck Says:

    “You are correct on all Tyson & Chuck related counts Raul”

    Just because you disagree doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

    Tyson was overrated.

    Tyson couldn’t box.

    Tyson’s first thirty something fights were against guys who wouldn’t have won a YMCA box-off.

    If he was in his prime when Ali and Frazier were, not only would he have not won the title, he probably wouldn’t have had a title fight.

    Put the cover back on the glue.

  319. Bob Says:

    You know, I was always partial to Joe Louis as the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

    1. Louis
    2. Ali
    3. Tyson
    4. Marciano

  320. Chuck Says:

    “Montero had 3 hits last night. A homer and 2 singles. All to the left side.”

    His last three HR have been to left or leftcenter.

  321. Raul Says:

    Chuck,

    You read that story that the Yankees were trying to trade Cervelli to Pittsburgh to clear up space for Montero?

  322. Chuck Says:

    No.

    I heard they probably would call him up after the deadline, so no surprise there.

  323. Raul Says:

    Yeah the rumor was Francisco Cervelli for Brad Lincoln.

    http://riveraveblues.com/2011/08/yankees-were-close-to-trading-cervelli-to-pittsburgh-53575/

  324. Chuck Says:

    Ha..the guy who runs RAB is the biggest Montero fan out there.

  325. Mike Felber Says:

    I never claimed or implied that you are wrong due to disagreeing with me, or apparently everyone who has said anything on this site about Tyson. Though the vast majority of boxing experts think you are wrong Chuck, & that carries weight, is not a mere “appeal to authority”. I indicated you often provide no even suggested proof for statements, as others have noted, you write mere premises absent evidence.

    You position is extreme. I can think of no authority who would say anything like Tyson would likely have no title fight in any era. You merely have to read about him or watch the videos to see how he was a talented boxer, besides having great physical gifts. Excellent defense, bobbing & weaving, covering up, got low, hard to hit, great combinations, effectively deployed speed…

    virtually ALL fighters start out slow & are not given top contenders early on-they could not get those fights without a record anyway. Tyson was not brought along especially slowly, though he was very young. Became the youngest heavyweight champion ever. HERE are some of the guys you think would lose a local box off Chuck, fought within Tyson’s 1st 30 fights:

    James Tillis.
    Mitch Green
    Trevor Berbick (won WBC heavyweight title)
    Pinklon Thomas (retained WBA/WBC title)
    Tony Tucker (same as above).

    These were talented, tough, large fighters, generally in their prime. They would have easily won any local/tough man competition anywhere, & were top contenders at the time.

    You can find any fighter, like Marciano, who fought guys who were no better than journeymen, or way past their prime (like fighting Lewis). Even during the Golden Age of boxing, this was the case. Take Earnie Shavers. He has arguably the greatest one punch KO power ever. But he lost a bunch of fights compared to the very best fighters, & was NOT a skilled boxer by any means.

    Yet even then, he was good enough to be a worthy contender. You are living in a dream world where everyone “then” was super tough, skilled, superior in every way.

    If you want to actually say WHY Tyson could not box, we will all listen. But evidence from videos & expert analysis says you are divorced from reality in this case.

  326. Cameron Says:

    Tyson’s pulled some stupid moments in the ring. Underestimating Buster Douglas caused one of the biggest upsets of all time.

    Then again, Ali lost to Leon Spinks, so there ya go.

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