2011’s All-Disappointment Team

by JohnBowen

It’s been a fantastic season of baseball; two wildcard races are going to go down to the very last day (and maybe one more). We’ve seen two triple crown pitchers, a triple crown chase from Matt Kemp, the Diamondbacks go from last to first, and whole host of other spectacular scenes.

We’ve also seen some performances that let us down; so before we debate the worthiness of MVP candidates based on several different quantitative and qualitative measures, let’s look at the gentlemen who didn’t impress in 2011:

Catcher – Joe Mauer, Minnesota Twins

In his first year of an 8-year, 184 million dollar deal, Joe Mauer found himself banged up and bruised during the 2011 season, spending far more time on Head & Shoulders commercials than actually out on the field. When he did play, he did not live up to his usual standards of excellence; his 103 OPS+, while solid for a catcher, is not what the Twins spent 23 million dollars per year on.

First Base – Daric Barton, Oakland Athletics

Daric Barton led the American League in walks in 2010, leading to the league’s fifth best on-base percentage at .393. The very next year, he struggled to produce, hitting just .212 and slugging .267 in 67 games before being sent down to the minors. The A’s – picked by some fools to win the West – ended up finishing a distant third.

Second Base – Kelly Johnson, Arizona Diamondbacks and Toronto Blue Jays

Kelly Johnson was a diamond(back) in the rough in 2010, leading the team in both on-base percentage and slugging percentage at .370 and .496 respectively. The next year it was the opposite. The Diamondbacks surged from last-to-first in the National League West. Meanwhile, Johnson watched his team clinch a post-season berth on TV, as he had been traded to Toronto after a very unproductive season as a Diamondback, hitting just .209.

Third Base – Casey McGehee, Milwaukee Brewers

2010 saw Casey McGehee hit 25 home runs, drive in 104 runs, and be named team MVP; 2011 saw him produce the worst season of any regular third baseman, currently rated at -1 Wins Above Replacement. Don’t sing any sad songs for Casey though; after playing for a third-place team in 2010, Casey is on his way to the post-season as a member of the National League Central Champion Brewers.

Shortstop – Miguel Tejada, San Francisco Giants

This one didn’t disappoint a ton of baseball fans per se, as Miguel Tejada wasn’t even owned in most fantasy leagues. Still, Brian Sabean brought the six time all-star for 6.5 million dollars hoping he would add some offense to the shortstop position. Tejada ended up hitting just .239 with a .270 on-base percentage and 4 home runs in 91 games while his team failed to defend its title.

Left Field – Vernon Wells, Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim

Carl Crawford made it a race, but this one had to go to Vernon Wells. Having missed out on the aforementioned free agent Crawford, the Angels desperately sought to upgrade their outfield by trading Mike Napoli for Vernon Wells’s massive contract (owed over 20 million a year through 2014). The Angels got basically zero value out of Wells, who hit .218/.249/.415; meanwhile, they saw Napoli end up with their division rival and put up an OPS over 1.000; without this trade, Los Angeles might very well be playing ball in October.

Center Field – Angel Pagan, New York Mets

Angel Pagan had been called upon by the Mets to fill in for Carlos Beltran while he was hurt, and he ended up earning the starting center field job following a very good 2010. But just when it looked like he was filling out Beltran’s shoes beautifully, Pagan came back to Earth; his offensive numbers fell across the board while defensive metrics saw him go from one of the game’s best outfielders to one of its worst.

Right Field – Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle Mariners

It had to happen sometime, right? After a solid decade of hitting at least .300 with at least a .350 on-base percentage and over 200 hits, Ichiro finally started to act his age. His durability certainly didn’t suffer, but with a .273/.310/.337 line, Ichiro did not provide the kind of production you expect from a Major League corner outfielder – though, admittedly, it’s par for the course for a member of the Seattle Mariners.

Designated Hitter – Adam Dunn, Chicago White Sox

If ever there was a player that you didn’t think would just completely fall off, it was Adam Dunn. His home run totals since 2004? 46, 40, 40, 40, 40, 38, 38. With big slugging and on-base numbers year-in and year-out, Adam Dunn was the definition of consistency, and certainly seemed worthy of the 4-year, 54 million dollar deal that the White Sox extended his way. Dunn ended up with just 11 home runs and the lowest batting average (.160) of any regular player in the game’s history.

RHP – John Lackey, Boston Red Sox

John Lackey took advantage of a weak free-agent market after the 2009 season to secure himself with a 5-year, 82.5 million dollar deal. His first season was very average. Just a transition year, right? Getting used to new teammates, new surroundings, etc before really turning it on for 2011…or something like that. Except that he has been one of the worst pitchers in baseball all year long. In fact, probably the worst. His 6.41 ERA and 1.619 WHIP both ranked worst among starters. It’s one thing if your big contract pitcher just doesn’t live up to expectations; it’s something completely different if he puts up historically awful numbers.

LHP – J.A. Happ, Houston Astros

The Astros whole year has been awful, but very few of their regular players even had the ability to disappoint. J.A. Happ is one of those players. The Astros thought so highly of the 2009 Rookie of the Year-runner-up that they traded longtime ace Roy Oswalt to bring him south. Happ’s 6-15 record isn’t actually that awful considering his teammates, but his 5.35 ERA, 1.535 WHIP and 1.61 K/BB ratio rank among the league’s worst. Definitely not what Ed Wade thought he was getting.

Closer – Ryan Franklin, St. Louis Cardinals

Ryan Franklin saved 38 games and earned an all-star selection in 2009. Even though he saw his saves drop in 2010, he actually improved his WHIP. But in 2011, he was atrocious. Franklin blew four of his five save opportunities, lost the ninth inning, and found himself out of a job before the all-star break. Franklin gave up at least one run in 14 of his 21 appearances and won’t exactly get a lot of free drinks in St. Louis if the Cardinals miss the playoffs by a single game.

386 Responses to “2011’s All-Disappointment Team”

  1. Lefty33 Says:

    You could also tag this list as the All DL team as most of these guys have either spent various degrees of time on the DL or like Lackey they need to.

  2. Raul Says:

    Really?
    Daric Barton?

    LOL

  3. JohnBowen Says:

    Hey man, he made me look bad.

    Well okay.

    I took care of that.

  4. Raul Says:

    I’m just saying…who the hell expected anything out of Daric Barton?

  5. JohnBowen Says:

    A guy finishes 5th in the league in OBP.

    Sure, it was a lot selfish, team-damaging walks, but still.

    5th in OBP.

    Yeah, I would expect him to be reasonably productive

    Not like Albert Pujols/Prince Fielder/Miggy Cabrera/Adrian Gonzalez good, but that’s not what the A’s needed to be competitive.

  6. Raul Says:

    Yeah, he walked a lot.
    So?

    He hit like Rudi Stein in the Bad News Bears.

    He was the most unproductive player to get on base all season.

  7. JohnBowen Says:

    “Yeah, he walked a lot.
    So?”

    Right, he reached base without committing an out a ton of times.

    Why is this not accepted as a very good thing for a ballplayer to do?

    Daric Barton isn’t going to pull a Greg Jennings and put the team on his back.

    Not suggesting that at all.

    But there’s a world of difference between a guy who reaches base 40% of the time and a guy who is a black hole in the lineup.

    Which is exactly what Barton was in 2011.

  8. Raul Says:

    Slugging .405 as a first baseman is not a very good thing to do.
    First basemen are paid to drive in runs. Not stand on base while some guy behind you grounds into a double play or some shit.

  9. Raul Says:

    I’m doing the Daily Crossword puzzle on Yahoo and the clue is “Civil War Fighting Ship” and of course I thought “Diversity”. Damn you, Ron Burgundy!

  10. JohnBowen Says:

    “Slugging .405 as a first baseman is not a very good thing to do.
    First basemen are paid to drive in runs. Not stand on base while some guy behind you grounds into a double play or some shit.”

    So…will you be notifying Rod Carew that he shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame, or should I take care of that?

  11. Raul Says:

    Rod Carew also hit like .340 for half his career.

    If Barton does that shit, I’d cut him a little slack.

  12. Raul Says:

    Andy Rooney is ending his run on 60 Minutes.
    One less Klansman on tv.

  13. JohnBowen Says:

    Not saying Barton’s an all-time.

    Just saying that he disappointed Oakland’s 18 fans.

  14. Raul Says:

    Tampa will send David Price to the mound to keep their playoff dream alive.
    Boston will send Jon Lester.

    Given that Baltimore will pitch Alfredo Simon, it’s a guaranteed Boston victory.

  15. Raul Says:

    Just contract the Athletics already.

    Oakland is a dump. And while San Jose is better, there’s some sketchy-as-shit areas around San Jose and I wouldn’t go there.

    Build a dome in Vegas and move the Athletics there.

    Gambling concerns? Dude, this is a small world. Being IN Las Vegas won’t change a friggin thing that’s already happening.

    Only difference is, a few minor leaguers that get called up will get a few extra perks from the veterans for game-winning hits.

  16. Raul Says:

    That should be “Or build a dome…”

  17. Raul Says:

    Congratulations San Francisco Giants!

    You only have 2 years and 39 million remaining on Barry Zito’s contract.
    He has a vesting option for 2014 that will almost certainly not be met.

    Personally, you should give up a nice prospect and package him with Zito’s contract in exchange for salary relief.

  18. Lefty33 Says:

    Zito doesn’t have to do much to have that option kick in.

    Just stay healthy. He doesn’t even need to be good, just healthy.

  19. Raul Says:

    If I read the page right, he needs to get 400 IP in those two years.
    Unlikely if you ask me.

  20. Lefty33 Says:

    He needs either 600 IP in ‘11-’13, or 400 IP in ‘12-’13, or 200 IP in ‘13.

    I could see the 200 IP in ‘13 as being possible. It’s funny how a contract or option year can make guys do things they normally would never do.

  21. JohnBowen Says:

    Fucking kidding me?

    The Dodgers scored FIVE RUNS in the top of the 10th inning to take a 6-1 lead.

    The Diamondbacks came back by scoring 6, starting with the bases empty and 2 outs, and culminating with a grand slam by Ryan Roberts to win 7-6.

    Just…fucking…wow.

  22. Raul Says:

    The Dbacks got a little 86 Mets in them?
    Who knew?

  23. Chuck Says:

    “Yeah, I would expect him to be reasonably productive.”

    By walking?

  24. Cameron Says:

    In this use of the term productive, the focus is crossing the plate himself, not helping other guys cross the plate.

    If Oakland had anyone with pop in that lineup, I could see it. However, wIllingham fell off a cliff and Matsui realized “Hey, I’m old” this year.

  25. JohnBowen Says:

    “By walking?”

    By not making outs.

    I want to make sure we’re clear…you realize you only get three of those per inning, right? And then, you’re done with the inning and you have to start all over?

  26. JohnBowen Says:

    “wIllingham fell off a cliff”

    Not really, he put together an alright season.

    .247/.333/.475, 28 HR, 95 RBI, 121 OPS+

    Not superstar numbers, but right about in line with his career marks.

  27. Cameron Says:

    28 homers. Isn’t that like, half of Oakland’s power?

  28. Chuck Says:

    You do realize games can’t actually end until each team gets 27 outs and the object of the game isn’t avoiding outs but scoring more runs than the other team, and that sacrificing an out for a run is a good thing?

  29. JohnBowen Says:

    “You do realize games can’t actually end until each team gets 27 outs”

    Oh, so actually teams just play all 27 of their outs in a row?

    “the object of the game isn’t avoiding outs”

    What happens when you avoid outs? You put men on base. What happens when you keep avoiding outs? You move runners over and put yourself on base. What happens when you keep doing that? You score runs.

    “sacrificing an out for a run is a good thing”

    In the grand scheme of things, it’s better than most at-bats.

    Depending on who’s in your lineup and which inning it is, it may even be better than a walk.

    But most of the time, it’s not, because you eliminate the possibility of a big inning, thus likely capping the number of runs you score at…1.

    Go here: http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902.html

    Granted, these numbers are way different now that steroids aren’t as plentiful.

    Say there’s a runner at third with 0 outs. A sac-fly will score 1-run and leave you with an expected gain of 0.297 runs. A walk will give you an expected gain of 1.904 runs. Eighth inning, tie game? Give me the sac-fly. Otherwise? Give me the greater number of runs.

  30. Cameron Says:

    No John, a walk with a runner on third and no outs results in no runs.

  31. brautigan Says:

    If you walk a lot and do nothing else to help your team win, then you’re Ben Greive and out of baseball before you wake up in the morning.

  32. JohnBowen Says:

    “No John, a walk with a runner on third and no outs results in no runs.”

    …but other people get to hit and drive them home…except now they have one more duck on the pond, and one more out to work with.

    All the possibilities that existed before are still there. You can even GIDP and get the run across (which Chuck would probably prefer to a walk to load the bases).

  33. Cameron Says:

    John, the main thing that you seem to do in these arguments is emphasize OBP to a ridiculous extent. While you lambast Chuck for thinking that walks score negative runs or something, you seem to discount the hit’s importance in baseball to the point where it seems like all you think guys should do is wait for ball four. Don’t criticize a guy for doing the exact same thing you’re doing.

  34. JohnBowen Says:

    “If you walk a lot and do nothing else to help your team win, then you’re Ben Greive and out of baseball before you wake up in the morning.”

    Or, Daric Barton circa 2011. He walked a ton but MADE THIS LIST because he was otherwise useless.

    A guy who hits .270 with 110 walks is more productive than a guy who hits .300 with 20 walks. Easily.

  35. JohnBowen Says:

    ” it seems like all you think guys should do is wait for ball four.”

    Well I’m sorry if I give that impression.

    Obviously the goal should be a hit. But not at the expense of making low-percentage swings at the first pitch you see.

  36. Cameron Says:

    You do kinda give that impression because you argue it so passionately. Sometimes the best way to help a debate along is to give up a little ground like you just did.

    A hit’s the optimal outcome, but don’t swing at bad balls, right. However, making contact on a good pitch still only results in a hit like, 30 percent of the time anyway. That’s a bad thing about baseball, even the best players still technically fail at an astonishing rate.

  37. JohnBowen Says:

    “However, making contact on a good pitch still only results in a hit like, 30 percent of the time anyway.”

    Which is why it’s awesome when you have guys who can work the count a lot and take walks. Because 80% of players are gonna be within a fairly limited range when it comes to BABIP, and the ones in that range who are good at drawing walks will create way fewer outs in the long run, and their teams will score more runs.

  38. Cameron Says:

    Yes, having more walks is good. Having more hits is better. But it takes a lot of work to get either. Mostly because you have pitchers fucking with guys.

  39. JohnBowen Says:

    So, what’s your trade-off? Would you take an extra 200 walks or 10 extra hits?

    To reiterate an example from before, the Cubs have an extra 100 hits on the Rays, but the Rays have 142 extra walks.

    Not surprisingly, the Rays have 50 more runs scored. Also not surprisingly, they’re knocking on the door of a playoff berth in the hardest division in baseball with a tiny payroll while the Cubs GM has been fired due to them finishing fifth in a weak division despite a 130+ million dollar payroll.

    Kinda shows you a great difference in organizational philosophies.

    I just use these two examples because they have the same slugging % and drastically different BA’s.

  40. Cameron Says:

    The difference between the Cubs and Rays isn’t the offense, it’s the pitching. If Chicago had Tampa’s pitching, you’d have been sweating all season.

    But in the grand scheme of things, you can’t focus on doing one thing over the other really, or you’re gonna end up trading off everything else. If you try and focus on just getting on base and not trying to get big hits when your team needs it, you’re gonna be an unproductive hitter even though you’re on base a lot (hi Nick Johnson). If you try and smash everything at the plate and don’t take the time to spot good pitches, then you’re gonna strike out and you’ll hit a shitload of homers that win you one game but lose you three with everything balancing (and there’s Mark Reynolds).

    You gotta find balance. Take the pitches you can, but don’t sit on everything and wait for the perfect ball.

  41. Chuck Says:

    #29,

    Borrowing from one of your favorite expressions, “after 1.2 trillion games…”

    150 years of baseball and you provide four years of data..kind of a small sample size, no?

    Not to mention the four prime years of the steriod era.

    Fail.

  42. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, aren’t you a little old to be using the term “fail”? That’s for us kids who won’t get off your lawn.

  43. JohnBowen Says:

    “The difference between the Cubs and Rays isn’t the offense”

    But there’s also a difference in their offense. A 50-run difference.

    “kind of a small sample size”

    I’m pretty sure you still don’t know what small sample size means.

    That “sample size” almost 10,000 games. That’s a lot of games.

    The fact that it doesn’t include any of Old Hoss Radbourn’s starts is irrelevant.

  44. Cameron Says:

    …Eh, I’ll give you that. They’re 4th in the NL Central in runs scored, trailing behind Milwaukee even more than they trail Tampa. But hitting isn’t everything in a team’s success. Milwaukee’s third in their division in runs scored. Now tell me John, why is a team 3rd in runs scored first in the division? Could it be the pitching?

  45. JohnBowen Says:

    Here’s one from 2005:

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/expected_runs_matrix2005.premium.php

    Same idea.

    Here’s a fairly comprehensive one for the last 60 years:

    http://www.tangotiger.net/re24.html

  46. JohnBowen Says:

    “Could it be the pitching?”

    Absolutely, including a great bullpen that one of our site’s members proclaimed “sucked, and this proves it” after opening day.

    I’m not trivializing pitching, merely pointing out what leads to more run-scoring.

    The Rays would not be competitive with the Cubs’ pitching, true. But they also are run by people who understand what creates wins…unlike the Cubs. That’s the whole point I was trying to get across. You’ve got two polar opposite organizations…a rich, unsuccessful one, and a poor, very successful one…clearly one of these two groups is doing a good job.

  47. Cameron Says:

    To be fair, the Cubs were catching on too. They tried to get rid of contracts like Zambrano, Soriano, and DID get rid of Fukudome so they could start re-investing the money in players that didn’t suck, as well as making sure their farm system is getting restocked. Okay, Garza kinda fucked that up by trading away the future ace, but they didn’t lose too much besides.

    Even Hendry was realizing his mistakes and was actively trying to dump money to reinvest in guys that could fix the team, but it was too little too late for him. You wanna rip in a team who’s failing because of bad management now, look at the White Sox. A team with no bullpen, hitters who strike out at a prodigious rate, and absolutely no farm system.

    Oh, and they think Chris Sale is their future ace and I’m still waiting for him to enter TJ.

  48. Cameron Says:

    So, Cleveland is 80-81 today. We all thought they’d finish under .500. Let’s see if we’re right.

  49. Chuck Says:

    John, the problem with sabermetrics and thus the links you provide is they generalize everything.

    Assigning a weighted or generic value to a walk or to a single or groundout is like saying a steak at Ruth’s Chris is the same as a steak at the mall food court.

    I chose the Rays the other day when asked but because of slugging percentage.

    The fact the Cubs have a 14 pt BA advantage and the Rays a 5 pt OBP isn’t relevant, and does just as much to disprove the point you’re trying to make because it’s irrelevant to how many baserunners you have but how valuable your balls in play are.

    Having a higher SP despite a 14 pt difference in BA makes OBP moot.

  50. Cameron Says:

    Like I said, the extra 20 homers count, man.

  51. Cameron Says:

    And currently, Chicago and Tampa have equal slugging percentages. Tampa has a 7 point OBP difference and Chicago has a 13 point advantage in batting average.

  52. JohnBowen Says:

    “the problem with sabermetrics and thus the links you provide is they generalize everything.”

    No, they look at the big picture.

    All of your opinions are based on “well, what about this one time, where the team won 2-1 on 2 RBI groundouts!?!”

    Great, but over the course of a 162 game season, the team with a higher OBP is going to score more runs. Every. Single. Time.

    Just two days ago, the Pirates drew 6 walks. 5 of those walks ended up coming around to score. They won by 1-run Without just 3 walks, the Pirates lose. Same number of hits, more balls in play, radically different result.

    “The fact the Cubs have a 14 pt BA advantage and the Rays a 5 pt OBP isn’t relevant”

    Only in Chuck’s version of baseball does having 50 extra runs not actually matter.

    “Having a higher SP despite a 14 pt difference in BA makes OBP moot.”

    They have identical slugging percentages. You wanna look at Isolated Power? We can do that too.

    ” it’s irrelevant to how many baserunners you have but how valuable your balls in play are.”

    See, you’re just wrong. More baserunners = more opportunities to drive people in = more people your team will bring around. Period. End of discussion.

  53. JohnBowen Says:

    “And currently, Chicago and Tampa have equal slugging percentages. Tampa has a 7 point OBP difference and Chicago has a 13 point advantage in batting average.”

    And…which team has scored more runs, again?

    Just so I’m clear.

  54. Chuck Says:

    “No, they look at the big picture.”

    So, it’s a generalization?

  55. Cameron Says:

    John’s got a point there, the more guys on base, the higher your chance of scoring a run is. However, you still have to put balls in play, John. You try and look for a walk every at-bat, you know what happens? The pitcher will catch you trying to look for the walk and blaze something by when you’re not looking. You know how guys can strike out on a fastball down the middle? They get lazy and are just looking for the walk.

  56. JohnBowen Says:

    In Chuck’s world, teams shouldn’t try to win as many games as possible, they should focus on looking for guys who feel like they make productive outs.

  57. Cameron Says:

    The one with a higher OBP and TWENTY MORE HOMERS! Just because the slugging percentages are equal doesn’t mean the hits are equal.

  58. Cameron Says:

    And in your world John, Nick Johnson is the greatest player who ever lived because he put on .400 OBP every year despite being a useless singles hitter who clogs the bases.

  59. JohnBowen Says:

    “You try and look for a walk every at-bat, you know what happens? ”

    For fuck’s sake.

    NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT YOU DO THAT.

    “You know how guys can strike out on a fastball down the middle? They get lazy and are just looking for the walk.”

    Yes, I know that guy. He’s half unicorn, half vampire.

  60. Cameron Says:

    Really? I thought Bobby Abreu was Venezuelan.

  61. JohnBowen Says:

    “The one with a higher OBP and TWENTY MORE HOMERS! Just because the slugging percentages are equal doesn’t mean the hits are equal.”

    But the Cubs had way more doubles and singles.

    “And in your world John, Nick Johnson is the greatest player who ever lived because he put on .400 OBP every year despite being a useless singles hitter who clogs the bases.”

    Nick Johnson is always injured. Did you seriously just make a clogging the bases reference?

    YOU WANT TO CLOG THE BASES. BECAUSE THAT MEANS THOSE BASES HAVE PEOPLE ON THEM THAT CAN SCORE RUNS.

  62. Cameron Says:

    I didn’t mean clogging the bases with high OBP, I meant clogging the bases in how it’s always used. By a guy who’s a terrible baserunner because he’s fat and useless.

  63. Cameron Says:

    And I don’t mean Prince Fielder fat. Prince is fat, but he’s able to run the bases. Johnson’s singles are other guys’ triples. That is clogging the bases.

  64. JohnBowen Says:

    Bobby Abreu’s career high in strikeouts is 137.

    Also, I love how that’s the go-to guy for an unproductive player who draws a lot of walks.

    A man with a .293/.397/.481 career line, 2384 career hits, 1412 runs scored, 1324 RBI, a 129 OPS+, 554 fucking doubles, 284 career jacks, 393 career stolen bases.

    Yeah, stay away from THAT guy.

    Give me Christian Guzman, he NEVER walks like a pussy!

  65. Cameron Says:

    I don’t make fun of Abreu because he’s bad. He’s a good player. I make fun of him because the guy’s practically terrified of swinging the bat. Even in his prime I’ve seen the guy lay off pitches Juan Pierre could blast 500 feet.

  66. JohnBowen Says:

    “Johnson’s singles are other guys’ triples. That is clogging the bases.”

    Nick Johnson never plays cuz he’s always injured. You’re missing the entire point on why he sucks.

    You’re the guy who, if he got caught by his wife cheating, would think she was mad for not changing the sheets after.

  67. Raul Says:

    You don’t win fights by avoiding punches. You need to throw em.

    Let’s get back to the list.

    Joe Mauer definitely belongs.
    Angel Pagan, also — although to a lesser degree.
    Adam Dunn.
    Ichiro.

    The other guys, I don’t think people were expecting much.

  68. Cameron Says:

    Oh, I know he’s always injured, but he’s still grossly overvalued even when he’s healthy. He may have .400 OBP but he’s not that productive because he’s not a good slugger and he’s a terrible baserunner. Oh, and a terrible defender.

    Guys with good OBP are productive in the sense that they score runs, yes. However, OBP alone doesn’t score runs, you need guys to hit, too.

  69. JohnBowen Says:

    ” I make fun of him because the guy’s practically terrified of swinging the bat.”

    So, he takes a lot of pitches…and has had an extraordinarily productive career.

    Meanwhile Jeff Francoeur is having a career season this year…if Abreu had Francoeur’s 2011, it would be his 11th best season.

  70. Chuck Says:

    “Great, but over the course of a 162 game season, the team with a higher OBP is going to score more runs. Every. Single. Time.”

    Random check.

    1972 AL

    Royals led the league in OBP and finished third in runs.

    Took me three seconds to find that.

  71. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, he takes a lot of pitches. It does help. I won’t deny that. However, the guy’s lost out on a lot of easy pitches over time.

    Chuck, Raul, you lived with this guy hitting third for three years, right? Back me up.

  72. JohnBowen Says:

    “The other guys, I don’t think people were expecting much.”

    So Art Moreno traded for 80 million dollars because he “wasn’t expecting much.”

    Besides, there are various degrees of expectations. McGehee, Wells, Johnson, Barton, Pagan aren’t superstars by any stretch of the imagination. But you assume that they’ll be very solid, contributing pieces of the puzzle and when they have sub-replacement level years, that’s a huge freaking disappointment.

  73. Cameron Says:

    Hey John, why isn’t Jayson Werth on this team?

  74. JohnBowen Says:

    “1972 AL”

    I would explain correlation to you, but man, you wouldn’t have a clue what was going on.

    A team finishes 1st in OBP and 5th in slugging so… 3rd is EXACTLY where you’d expect them to finish.

  75. JohnBowen Says:

    @73, Ichiro had a longer track record of success, but Werth would be an excellent candidate too.

  76. Cameron Says:

    If you said that slugging correlated to run scoring as well, then maybe. But the only thing I’ve heard from you is OBP = Runs. By the logic you’ve given us, 1st in OBP is first in RS.

    That’s what happens when you only argue one dimension of a game, John. You get people misrepresenting your thoughts because you’ve only said one of them.

  77. JohnBowen Says:

    @76, why did I pick TB and Chicago?

    Because they had THE SAME slugging percentage.

    Basic science…if you want to examine one variable, you have to neutralize others.

    Of course, the Rays success is probably just all the productive outs that Sam Fuld makes.

  78. Cameron Says:

    The Rays success is the fact that they have Shields, Price, and Hellickson, not that they take more walks. How hard can I drill it into your skull?

  79. Chuck Says:

    ” would explain correlation to you, but man, you wouldn’t have a clue what was going on.”

    Apparently you don’t either.

    “Great, but over the course of a 162 game season, the team with a higher OBP is going to score more runs. Every. Single. Time.”

  80. Cameron Says:

    “” would explain correlation to you, but man, you wouldn’t have a clue what was going on.””

    Wait… Correlation? GAH!!!

    CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!!!! CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION!!!!

    Sorry, but that’s something I’ve learned in science, statistics, AND psychology! Holy fuck!

  81. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Rays success is the fact that they have Shields, Price, and Hellickson, not that they take more walks. How hard can I drill it into your skull?”

    The Mariners are wondering if that’s all you need…cuz see, they have these awesome pitchers, but they seem to be forgetting something.

    @79, do you not understand the concept of neutralizing variables?

  82. Cameron Says:

    @81, Do you realize that when you say “Every. Single. Time.” that even one year of a team that leads in OBP not leading in RS still proves you wrong?

  83. JohnBowen Says:

    @80, are you seriously going to argue that base-runners don’t help “cause” runs?

    I mean, seriously.

  84. JohnBowen Says:

    “that even one year of a team that leads in OBP not leading in RS still proves you wrong?”

    No.

    Because you’re not neutralizing the other variables.

    If you hold slugging equal, a team with a higher OBP will (fine, almost) always outscore a team with a lower OBP, even if there’s a drastic difference in BA.

  85. Cameron Says:

    There’s correlation yes, but a guy being on base doesn’t mean that a guy’s scored a run. It doesn’t. You know what causes scoring runs? Scoring the damn run.

    Getting on base is important, it helps you score runs. But you don’t win a game by getting on base, you win by scoring runs. On-base percentage alone does not win you a ballgame. It doesn’t. It does not. It. Does. Not.

    If OBP was all that mattered a walk is as good as a homer, and if you think that’s true, then holy fuck dude.

  86. Cameron Says:

    Yes it does, John. You posited a hypothesis of “the team that has the higher OBP scores the most runs.” On average, that may be true, but you didn’t say “on average”, you said, “every single time”.

    …And you were wrong.

  87. Chuck Says:

    Stop making excuses John.

    You clearly said “every single time.”

    Which is not true.

    And, again, to be clear, you never said anything else.

  88. JohnBowen Says:

    “On-base percentage alone does not win you a ballgame.”

    No one said it did, but…

    I would say the team that reaches base more than the other team wins about 95% of the time.

    Dig for counter-examples all you want, but there’s a reason guys like Jim Hendry are out of a job.

  89. JohnBowen Says:

    “And, again, to be clear, you never said anything else.”

    I implied it.

    Can’t believe I have to spell everything out for you.

    Again, I’ll just use this example:

    Joe Morgan…career .270 hitter, .390 OBP.
    Placido Polanco…career .300 hitter, .345 OBP.

    Pick one of these players to be your 2B.

  90. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, because he went through money like I go through burritos. I’ll admit that, but John, you keep defending that OBP is the most important thing in baseball. If it was, it’d win you games alone. It doesn’t. Scoring runs does. You need to be able to score runs.

    OBP helps. So does BA and SLG and SB and a fuckload of other things. You also have to be good at stopping the other guys from scoring runs, which means good defense and pitching.

    Everything revolves around the run. That’s what makes it the most important thing. OBP may be the most important thing towards going to it, but at the end of the day, the run is the end-all stat. Everything else is merely something that affects it.

  91. Cameron Says:

    Polanco also has a SLG% 25 points lower and less than half Morgan’s homers. And a worse glove. And less SB.

  92. JohnBowen Says:

    “If it was, it’d win you games alone.”

    No, that’s not true.

    Just because something is the most important thing doesn’t mean that it’s the only thing.

    “OBP may be the most important thing towards going to it”

    Stop right there. You’ve made my point.

  93. JohnBowen Says:

    “And less SB.”

    Stolen bases, apparently, don’t count in baseball.

  94. Cameron Says:

    Just because they think Tim Raines isn’t a Hall of Famer doesn’t mean they think SB don’t count. If you’re so tired of people putting words in your mouth, stop putting words into everyone else’s.

  95. Chuck Says:

    “I implied it.”

    No you didn’t.

    You’re not getting out of this, so do yourself a favor and let it go.

  96. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, mind if I ask you point-blank? Do you think getting on base is a good thing?

  97. Chuck Says:

    Well, considering you can’t score without getting on base, I’d say so.

  98. JohnBowen Says:

    “Do you think getting on base is a good thing?”

    I can’t believe this question even has to be asked in a baseball forum.

  99. Cameron Says:

    There you go, John. Chuck doesn’t thing guys getting on base is a bad thing. Happy?

  100. Cameron Says:

    Well, I got him closer to being on your side than you ever did. Sometimes being direct is a good thing.

  101. Chuck Says:

    Why would anyone think getting on base isn’t important, or think I didn’t believe so?

  102. Cameron Says:

    I don’t know, ask John who seems to think that you believe that getting on base causes your team to lose runs.

  103. Raul Says:

    I think Cameron asked about Bobby Abreu as a Yankee.

    Listen, Bobby Abreu was a fine player and has had a fine career.
    But this guy took so many pitches, it was damn near criminal.

    If Bobby Abreu would have been a little more aggressive, he would have easily had a HOF career.

  104. JohnBowen Says:

    Well, since you’re being all literal today, you said the other day that a walk has 0% the value of a single.

    Which is obviously nonsense.

  105. Cameron Says:

    Thank you, Raul. A lefty in Yankee Stadium can hit 30 homers with their eyes closed. If you’re batting third, you’re expected to hit homers.

  106. JohnBowen Says:

    “If Bobby Abreu would have been a little more aggressive, he would have easily had a HOF career.”

    How can you know that for sure?

    Casual observation…

    The go-to guy for bashing patience seems to be Bobby Abreu.
    The go-to guy for bashing aggressiveness is Yuniesky Betancourt.

    The go-to guy for praising aggressiveness is Vladimir Guerrero.
    The go-to guy for praising patience is Ted Williams.

  107. JohnBowen Says:

    “A lefty in Yankee Stadium can hit 30 homers with their eyes closed. If you’re batting third, you’re expected to hit homers.”

    Paul O’Neill, 1993-2001 HR totals: 20, 21, 22, 19, 21, 24, 19, 18, 21.

  108. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think he’d have a Hall of Fame career, but I watched him in New York, I’ve been watching in in LA. I wasn’t really into baseball while he was in Philly, so I couldn’t say for certain, but he’s OCD with his pitches. Unless he 100% knows he can hit it, he stays off, missing a lot of pitches most guys would swing at and get hits. He’d probably have about 350 HR instead of the 285 or so with a little more aggressiveness.

    Guy has the power, we’ve all seen it. He just doesn’t utilize it as often as he should.

  109. Cameron Says:

    Okay, not EVERY lefty can hit 30 homers in Yankee stadium. O’Neill didn’t have that kind of power. Abreu? He has power as evidenced by the doubles and seeing how when does square something up he tears it to shreds.

  110. Raul Says:

    “How can you konw that for sure?”

    Because I watched him for 3 years.
    There wasn’t a player on the planet who took as many “gimmie” first pitch strikes with men on base as Bobby Abreu.

    That you are too arrogant to take anything that isn’t a number as truth is your problem, not mine.

  111. Cameron Says:

    Gimme first strikes, gimme second strikes, gimme twentieth pitches into the at-bat…

  112. Cameron Says:

    Can’t decide what to make for lunch. I’ve got chicken and penne with garlic sauce or fettucinie alfredo. Both sound really good right now.

  113. Chuck Says:

    “Can’t decide what to make for lunch. I’ve got chicken and penne with garlic sauce or fettucinie alfredo”

    Which box is easier to open?

  114. Raul Says:

    And Ted Williams isn’t the poster child for patience.
    He’s the poster child for being the greatest friggin hitter that ever lived.

    Not the greatest person to not swing a bat.

    LOL @ Chuck

  115. Chuck Says:

    “Well, since you’re being all literal today, you said the other day that a walk has 0% the value of a single.

    Which is obviously nonsense”

    Sure, if your name is John Bowen and you spent your formitive high school years locked in the basement reading Tom Tango and sniffing glue.

  116. Cameron Says:

    You know me so well, Chuck.

    The garlic chicken takes 15 minutes less to make. In 15 minutes, I’ll be looking at the cat like it’s lunch. I think the choice is made.

  117. Cameron Says:

    I dunno Chuck, if you have no one on base in front of you, how big of a difference is there between a walk and a single?

  118. JohnBowen Says:

    “Sure, if your name is John Bowen and you spent your formitive high school years locked in the basement reading Tom Tango and sniffing glue.”

    Dude, seriously.

    It’s kinda pathetic how petty you get when you lose an argument.

  119. Chuck Says:

    “It’s kinda pathetic how petty you get when you lose an argument.”

    I’ve never lost an argument John, ESPECIALLY to you.

    Haha..that’s rich.

  120. JohnBowen Says:

    “I’ve never lost an argument John, ESPECIALLY to you.”

    The very first sign that someone has lost is when they resort to personal attacks.

  121. Cameron Says:

    Made a lunch decision. I’m cooking the garlic children in the alfredo sauce. It’ll add a few minutes onto the cooking time, but it’s so gonna be worth it.

  122. Cameron Says:

    Like your views on “in Chuck’s world” are any better?

  123. Chuck Says:

    Or trying to say they were being literal.

  124. Raul Says:

    From one fat guy to another, it’s probably a good idea to avoid creamy foods.

  125. Cameron Says:

    Raul, if I had any intention of trying to lose weight, I might take that advice.

  126. Raul Says:

    Just don’t want you to have a stroke while playing catch with Chuck’s dog in that Arizona heat.

    :)

  127. Cameron Says:

    Arizona heat, psh. Yeah, 100 degrees with no humidity. You ever been to a summer in the midwest?

  128. Cameron Says:

    Oh guys, I have great news. Once the playoff teams are determined, I’ll work on another article for the site. I remember y’all liked my last article.

  129. Chuck Says:

    To a certain extent, guys like John and Shaun and even Mike prove you have to have an understanding of your subject before attempting some scientific experiments.

    Is a walk as good as a hit?

    In terms of “just” getting on base, sure, but it’s no different too than getting hit by a pitch or reaching on a third strike passed ball.

    There’s what, five, six ways to reach base….and in sense of getting a pat on the ass from your first base coach, they are all equal.

    But the argument here has never been “getting there”, it’s been about scoring runs and maximizing the value of your runners, and that’s where considering a walk being as good as a hit fails.

  130. Cameron Says:

    So, a walk has the same value of a single for getting on base and for getting on base only. …Yeah, that’s about right.

  131. JohnBowen Says:

    “Is a walk as good as a hit?”

    No, it’s not.

    I want you, here and now, to give me a number which shows how much better a single is than a walk.

    1.5 times? 2? 3?

    “for getting on base only”
    “OBP may be the most important thing towards going to it”

    exactly.

  132. Raul Says:

    Yeah but even then there are those fluke situations where a single gets bobbled and you get an extra base out of it.

    Even then a “single” beats a walk.

    How often does that happen? Not a ton, admittedly.
    Still, we’ve all seen plays where a guy rounds 1st base on a single, the outfielder rushes and either botches the play or rushes a wild throw that leads to an extra base.

  133. Cameron Says:

    I think a walk might beat a single if the bases are empty. Both have the same result, but the walk usually tires the pitcher out more. That’s about the only time, though.

  134. Chuck Says:

    “Yeah but even then there are those fluke situations where a single gets bobbled and you get an extra base out of it.”

    Not to mention all those other times when there are actually RUNNERS on base.

  135. Chuck Says:

    “want you, here and now, to give me a number which shows how much better a single is than a walk.”

    Can’t be done.

    No matter how hard all your Twitter friends try.

  136. Cameron Says:

    They’re called Followers, Chuck. …Yeah, I think it’s stupid too.

  137. JohnBowen Says:

    “Even then a “single” beats a walk.”

    Sure, it happens. But like you say, not that often. You also have times when a pop-fly is completely dropped, but you’re not going to draft a team based on that random occurrence.

    The nerds who hate baseball and live in their mothers’ basements generally say that a walk has 80% the value of a single. How off can that be, really? Something like 60% of major league at-bats take place with nobody on. In all those instances, a walk is like 99.99995% the value of a single (to account for the situation Raul described).

  138. JohnBowen Says:

    “Can’t be done.”

    Actually, it can.

    The fact that you dismiss any number as black magic says a lot more about you than it does about sabermetrics.

  139. Cameron Says:

    Okay, so turning the garlic chicken into garlic chicken alfredo doubled the cooking time, but yeah. So worth it.

  140. Chuck Says:

    “Actually, it can.”

    No, John, it can’t.

    SABR has documented every homer ever hit and determined the average run expectancy is 1.4.

    Average means median.

    Doesn’t mean in whatever argument you’re in you can say “homers are worth 1.4 runs” because your result will be nothing more than an estimate.

    A team like Milwaukee who has more baserunners than the average team may have a 1.8, while the Cubs could be 1.0.

    But to say a walk has a .65 value of a single?

    Nah.

  141. Raul Says:

    I picked Pablo Sandoval to be this year’s Comeback Player.

    Looks like I was right.

  142. JohnBowen Says:

    “Average means median.”

    No, Chuck, it doesn’t.

    Learn the difference, and then come back.

  143. JohnBowen Says:

    “But to say a walk has a .65 value of a single?
    Nah.”

    Ah yes.

    The scientifically determined “doesn’t feel that way…nah.”

  144. Bob Says:

    Tim Wakefield wants to pitch next season. For Boston

  145. Cameron Says:

    Does a third of an inning before releasing him count?

  146. Cameron Says:

    Jimmy Rollins is saying he wants a five-year contract in his next deal. Execs seem to think his contract is in the range of 3/$36MM-4/$56MM

    …I wouldn’t pay him six a year.

  147. JohnBowen Says:

    I would, just because I want Yuni B gone so bad.

  148. Cameron Says:

    I’m just saying, Rollins is on a big downswing. The guy’s still a good defender, but his legs aren’t the same and his bat isn’t the MVP bat it used to be (if you didn’t realize Matt Holliday was playing in ‘07, seriously…).

    But the Phillies love him enough to bat him leadoff despite sub-.300 OBPs, so maybe he’ll get his wish.

  149. Chuck Says:

    A number can be assigned to anything.

    Doesn’t mean we should be taking it as an absolute.

    While advancements to technology has given people more avenues to look at things, it’s also given some people opinions they haven’t earned the right to express.

    “Seen and not heard”

  150. JohnBowen Says:

    “Doesn’t mean we should be taking it as an absolute.”

    Completely agree.

    “it’s also given some people opinions they haven’t earned the right to express.”

    I didn’t realize we lived in China and you had to “earn the right to express an opinion.”

  151. Chuck Says:

    I was being literal, and I implied it.

  152. Chuck Says:

    I was actually reading a pretty heated thread (for them) on the SABR website yesterday with some of the older members saying the “new” membership has taken the point of the organization away from the research they’re known for and to statistics.

    Even though the “saber” in sabermetrics comes from the acronym “SABR”, it’s actually a misnomer in the sense SABR was never about stats..it was about verifying every single play in ML history.

    After watching that special last weekend I’m more convinced than ever that there is a significant difference between “sabermetrics” and “advanced stats”.

  153. Raul Says:

    Atlanta needs to win. I can’t stand LaRussa’s stupid face this October.

  154. JohnBowen Says:

    @153, agreed.

    Then again, I really hope the Brewers hold onto home-field and plays a team that isn’t Philly in the first round. If the Braves sneak in, the Dbacks win, and the Brewers lose, the Crew is headed to Citizens Bank Park in the first round.

    And to think, I thought the Dodgers could hold a 5-run lead with 2 outs in the bottom of the 10th…

  155. JohnBowen Says:

    So, Jose Reyes dropped down a bunt single and came out of the game.

    Seems kinda bushleague, but whatever. Mets have nothing to play for thanks to all the hard work Minaya did, so having a batting champ (the first in club history) might be a neat little plus.

    Ryan Braun now has to go 3-4 or better to win the batting title.

  156. Raul Says:

    Oh that’s BS @ 155.

    Ted Williams wouldn’t have done that.
    LOL.

    In fact, he didn’t.

  157. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah.

    Now that he’s locked up the batting title, where do you think he’s heading next year?

  158. Cameron Says:

    Well, who has the payroll space for him? I think the Mets may have a good chance at keeping him. I could see Milwaukee making a possible play, but they really should focus on pitching. If Jimmy Rollins leaves Philly, Jose will be in Philly so fast it’ll make your head spin. Tampa SHOULD make a play for him, but they won’t be willing to spend.

    Call me crazy, but the big three contenders here look like the Mets, the Tigers, and the Braves.

  159. JohnBowen Says:

    “I could see Milwaukee making a possible play, but they really should focus on pitching.”

    Brewers pitching is fine.

    I love Prince, but seeing as Mat Gamel is long-past ready to go, I’d love to see us focus on using the money we’d use to re-sign Prince and go after Reyes (who would be way more of an upgrade at SS than Gamel would be a downgrade at 1B). I just don’t think we’d be willing to invest so much money on an injury liability.

  160. Cameron Says:

    Well, how much longer is it gonna be there? I think Marcum and Wolf are gone after this year and Greinke the next. You’ve got some new pitching in the draft, but you need to restock on that front end.

    That or re-signing Fielder. That should be priority #1 in Milwaukee.

  161. Raul Says:

    Jose Reyes to Milwaukee would be huge for them.

    Jose Reyes to Tampa would really bolster their chances to compete for a division title.

    Problem is…dinero.

    And I don’t think Reyes wants to go to Milwaukee — of all places.

  162. Chuck Says:

    I think the Mets will try and re-sign Reyes especially since he won the title.

    That’s easy promotional money and could help off-set his new contract.

    They’d have to trade David Wright, though.

    Heard that somewhere before, too.

    http://www.dugoutcentral.com/?p=2228

  163. Cameron Says:

    Milwaukee still looks like a contender, man. The chance at a ring is a huge motivator to free agents. Plus, Milwaukee has more payroll space than Tampa by far. It ain’t much, but it’s still a lot more than the Rays.

    Like I said, though, there’s really three teams if you ask me.

    -The Mets, Reyes is their star player and one of the teams with the payroll and need at shortstop. However, they may want to go full-blown on rebuilding.

    -The Braves, these guys are a young team, filled with a bunch of productive players, the pitching is great, and Reyes would provide a solid glove and great bat at shortstop. He could push them from a wildcard team to a WS winner.

    -The Tigers, pretty much the above explanation. Young, great talent coming up or already there, and he makes a contending team a dominating favorite.

    There’s a fourth team, though. If Jimmy Rollins gets shown the door in Philly, I’ll bet one of my cats on him being a Philly.

  164. brautigan Says:

    If the Cardinals have trouble signing Pujols (and they will), I can see Jose Reyes be an option for them. The Cardinals would be out of their mind to extend the option on Furcal (how the hell does he make almost as much money as Pujols?), so Reyes makes a lot of sense. The Cards have been trying to fill the SS position for some time.

  165. Cameron Says:

    The Cardinals were a team I considered, but these guys aren’t exactly a slam-dunk to be contenders in the future and they’ll spend ALL of their offseason budget on Pujols. All of it and next offseason’s.

  166. brautigan Says:

    The Mets have a nice option in Tejeda if Reyes signs elsewhere. Which then gives the Mets a nice little leverage.

  167. Raul Says:

    So I was wondering if any pitchers are likely to be traded this offseason.
    Barry Zito to the Yankees? (if they include a good prospect in exchange for the Yankees eating most of the salary).

    Bronson Arroyo?

    Then it hit me…Bronson Arroyo’s nickname on Baseball-Reference is “Saturn Nuts”.

    Greatest.
    Name.
    Ever.

  168. JohnBowen Says:

    I think the Mets should try and trade Wright.

    I have a hard time believing that they’ll try to re-sign a player for as much as Reyes will command even if they do find a suitor for Wright.

  169. Cameron Says:

    Raul, that’d mean the Yankees would need to have a good prospect first. ha, cheap shot, I know. Honestly? I think if someone was willing to pay off Zito’s contract in full, San Fran would take it without any return other than the relief.

  170. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Tigers, pretty much the above explanation. Young, great talent coming up or already there, and he makes a contending team a dominating favorite.”

    I guess I could see that. I was gonna say that Jhonny Peralta has had such a fantastic year for way cheaper, but he can shift over to third if Reyes comes to town.

    Jim Leyland continues to give Inge at-bats over there…

  171. Cameron Says:

    Well, the Mets are an interesting case. They’re still somehow a .500 team despite losing Beltran and their pitching looking like a beer league softball team at every level. If they’re willing to rebuild gradually and still keep guys like Wright and Reyes, Reyes will stay. If they want to completely implode the team, Reyes is gone. Depends on what the Mets want to do.

  172. Cameron Says:

    I do know that at some point in the future, the Tigers will find a premier middle infielder on the free agent market. It’s either Jose Reyes this year or Brandon Phillips next year.

  173. Cameron Says:

    Fun fact, the word “bunt” came to be in 1872 after a player in Brooklyn corrupted the phrase of “butting” the ball as it was called.

    …I’m kinda glad that happened.

  174. Raul Says:

    No Cam.

    I’m saying the Giants trade Zito and his contract to the Yankees. Depending on how much of the contract the Yankees agree to pay, the Giants include a prospect accordingly.

    So if the Yankees pay all of Zito’s money, the Giants include a higher prospect than if SF sent a low-level guy.

  175. Raul Says:

    I think Brandon Inge was released @ John

  176. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, I think the only way Zito leaves San Fran is on a bad contract swap.

    …So he’s stuck going to Anaheim or the North Side.

  177. Chuck Says:

    Reyes=Washington.

  178. Chuck Says:

    Barry Zito is a figment of Brian Sabean’s imagination and actually doesn’t exist.

    He’s pitched the last three or four years in the Yankees’ organization under the name Kei Igawa.

  179. Cameron Says:

    I dunno Chuck, that’d be a lot of money to commit between him and Werth (not to mention Zimmerman), and there’s not much to show for it yet. They could contend, but I think Reyes will want to play more for a proven winner.

    Then again, we thought that about Jayson Werth and HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

  180. brautigan Says:

    As great as Pujols has been, he is the very type of player that can have an abrupt downturn with his career. His defensive numbers at first base are the first indicator. He slid a little with his offensive ouput, so you can consider this season an outlier, or you can consider it the natural progression of a player who is 31 and moving past his prime.

    As much as it greives me to say it, Prince Fielder has more upside at this point than Pujols.

    Ed Matthews hit 106 homeruns after turning 32.
    Mickey Mantle hit 117.
    Ernie Banks took 10 years to hit 176 after turning 32.
    Jose Canseco had 159, including two years (98-99) when he smashed 80 homeruns, not to mention his self admission of steroid use.
    Ken Griffey Jr. had 189.
    Jimmie Foxx had 78.
    Duke Snider had 76.
    Mel Ott had 123, with all but 27 coming off of war time pitching.

    So Pujols might get you another 180 homeruns over the course of his remaining career, assuming he stays healthy. And you’re going to pay close to $1 million per homerun?

    If I’m the GM, I don’t sign him to that long of a contract. And if I did sign him to a long term contract for huge dollars, I should be fired.

  181. JohnBowen Says:

    @175, you sure?

  182. Cameron Says:

    Pujols also plays great defense, is still one of the best contact hitters in the game, and guess what? Pujols pays back his contract tenfold with ticket and merchandise revenue.

  183. JohnBowen Says:

    “Pujols pays back his contract tenfold with ticket and merchandise revenue.”

    LOL…Pujols is going to generate 3 Billion dollars in jersey sales?

    A little optimistic there.

  184. Raul Says:

    My mistake.

    Inge is there. I guess when they got Betemit, I figured Inge was on the outs.

  185. Cameron Says:

    Well, not tenfold, but you can’t deny the power of name value to selling shit. Pujols will at least make his contract back over the course of the deal off tickets and merchandise.

  186. Chuck Says:

    “As great as Pujols has been, he is the very type of player that can have an abrupt downturn with his career”

    And Prince doesn’t?

    He could blow his knee or back getting off the crapper.

    Based on value I’d have no problem giving him $20 million, but no way I give him more than three years, at least not without a shitload of options I control. And no way I’d give him a no-trade.

    No no no no no fuck no.

  187. Chuck Says:

    Inge was DFA’d, spent most of August in AAA, and was recalled when rosters expanded.

    He’d done after this year.

  188. Lefty33 Says:

    “There’s a fourth team, though. If Jimmy Rollins gets shown the door in Philly,”

    As much as I don’t like Rollins, I’ll bet my cat that he is in Philly next year.

    Yes they do have Freddy Galvis in AAA and yes he does play D as well as Rollins but he is not ready to hit major league pitching full time at this point so I would be shocked if Rollins is not brought back with a two year deal at like 10-11 million per with some sort of unattainable club or mutual option for a third season.

  189. brautigan Says:

    I don’t think San Francisco has any prospects left. The cupboard in Giant land is pretty bare.

  190. Cameron Says:

    Rollins wants five years, though. I don’t know if Philly wants to commit the money or years that the guy wants. It’s a possibility, but not sure enough for me to list them as a contender.

  191. brautigan Says:

    Hey Cam, you still see any Cincinatti Griffey jerseys anywhere?

    The American public is so fickle and suffers from dementia (PCS causing CRS). As soon as Pujols quits hitting, you can pick up a Pujols jersey at any garage sale for fifty cents.

  192. brautigan Says:

    Chuck @ 186: I would agree with that. I would also say that is as much as I would pay Pujols.

  193. Raul Says:

    I used to have a Denver Nuggets Dikembe Mutombo jersey.
    Wish I still had it…

  194. Cameron Says:

    Not wearing ‘em anymore, but they’re stashed in closets all over Ohio. I’ve got Reds fans all over my family, I know.

  195. brautigan Says:

    Hey, Drew Stubbs didn’t strike out today!

    (Finishes with 205. Dave Nicholson is still with us…….)

  196. Lefty33 Says:

    “Jimmy Rollins is saying he wants a five-year contract in his next deal. Execs seem to think his contract is in the range of 3/$36MM-4/$56MM”
    “Rollins wants five years, though. I don’t know if Philly wants to commit the money or years that the guy wants.”

    Rollins would get that kind of deal too, if it were 2008.

    What Rollins has said so far is just posturing. He has also said that he will not take a hometown discount from the Phillies because his entire current contract was a hometown discount.

    Nobody at this point is paying Rollins for five years, period.

    In all seriousness until the new CBA is done and there actually is a cap number put into place for ‘12 it’s all poor speculation on this because the Phillies have shown zero willingness to pay a penny of luxury tax and even though they do have some money coming off the books next year in Lidge, Ibanez, and Oswalt there are new rumors already swirling that due to the ineffectiveness of Stutes and Bastardo down the stretch Lidge is quite possibly coming back next year on a cheap short term deal just like they gave Contreras before last season.

    And speaking of Contreras, he is the only person in the Phillies bullpen next year currently under contract and there is a very good chance he will be opening the ’12 season on the DL.

    The Phillies also have millions of dollars of increases already on the books for the ’12 season to Lee, Ruiz, Victorino, and Polanco plus big arbitration pay days for Hamels and Pence that will eat up any savings of expiring contracts.

    Unless they have a big change in team policy I don’t see the Phillies going after Reyes or really anybody significant this offseason. If they just resign the current core group for next year they’ll likely be bumping right up against whatever number the cap is set at.

  197. Chuck Says:

    I can’t comprehend how clueless a hitter you must be to strike out that many times.

  198. Cameron Says:

    You do it by trying to rip the cover off every ball you see. Ryan Howard and Adam Dunn did it well. Stubbs did not.

  199. Raul Says:

    Easy there, Chuck.

    People will have you believe that it doesn’t matter what kind of out you make.

  200. Raul Says:

    And Bautista finishes the season batting .302.

    Pre-All Star: .334/.468/.702
    Post-All Star: .261/.422/.483

    That doesn’t include his numbers today but they won’t change significantly.

  201. Raul Says:

    WTF!

    The Yankees will start Dellin Betances today?
    Wow.

  202. Chuck Says:

    Wait, you mean it DOES matter?

    I thought an out was an out, you know, same mindset as a walk is as good as a hit?

    Well, golly gee whiz…

    And to think I wasted all that energy with stupid sacrifice flies and fielder’s choice grounders instead of just taking one down the cock and walking back to the dugout.

  203. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah…I’m giving the edge to Verlander over Bautista just for the fact that Verlander was great in both halfs.

    Not that .261/.422/.483 is bad, but you know.

  204. JohnBowen Says:

    “And to think I wasted all that energy with stupid sacrifice flies and fielder’s choice grounders instead of just taking one down the cock and walking back to the dugout.”

    You know what?

    I want you to generate a list of the top players at producing productive outs that led to runs, along with how many runs they produced.

    I know that leading the NL in Sac Flies is Yuniesky Betancourt…with 10.

  205. Chuck Says:

    “The Yankees will start Dellin Betances today.”

    Well,

    A)That’s dumb,

    B) if the Red Sox end up in a tie breaker tomorrow, they’re starting pitcher isn’t even in their organization today.

  206. Raul Says:

    Who had the better season?

    Justin Verlander in 2011.
    or
    Zack Greinke in 2009.

  207. Chuck Says:

    Sure, John, get right on it.

  208. Chuck Says:

    And I assume, John, you’ll be working on a list of the top players producing runs with strikeouts?

  209. JohnBowen Says:

    @207, nah, I don’t care that much about “contact percentage.”

    @206, I’d say Greinke, slightly…but in 2009, Joe Mauer led the league in BA, OBP, and SLG as a catcher. That’s ridiculous.

  210. brautigan Says:

    JB: Bautista’s .905 OPS would have put him 18th in the majors. Right behind Pujols, Konerko, and Morse.

    If I’m voting MVP, I’m casting my vote for Miggie Cabrera, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jose Bautista, Curtis Granderson or Adrian Gonzalez before I vote for Verlander.

    I mean, you do realize Verlander played in only 21% of the Tiger games. How does that qualify for MVP?

  211. JohnBowen Says:

    If Chuck were building a team, he would build it around “contact percentage.”

    That’s (AB-K)/PA, approximately.

  212. JohnBowen Says:

    “I mean, you do realize Verlander played in only 21% of the Tiger games. How does that qualify for MVP”

    Because in the games he does play, he’s 5 times as valuable as a comparable position player.

    There’s a reason that people decided to give “wins” to pitchers, stupid though that might be.

  213. brautigan Says:

    John: You cannot believe how much I’m laughing right now.

    Please qualify how Verlander is 5 times more valuable than a position player.

  214. Raul Says:

    Who would you give the wins to in Hockey, John?

  215. JohnBowen Says:

    “Who would you give the wins to in Hockey, John?”

    No one, because it’s a team game, like baseball.

    “Please qualify how Verlander is 5 times more valuable than a position player.”

    Let me reiterate: In the Games that he plays.

    Verlander averages 28.5 batters faced per game.

    Which is actually a little more than 5x as many as a typical batter gets. Do you know any guys who average close to 6 PA’s a game?

  216. brautigan Says:

    I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around your logic. It is obvious I’m asking the wrong question.

  217. Chuck Says:

    John goes to the plate ten times and hits ten 400 footers to the warning track and goes 0-10.

    His alter ego, we’ll call him Shaun, goes 0-10 with ten whiffs.

    John’s contact percentage was 1.000, Shaun’s .000.

    If I was building a team, I’d want John on my team because he’s better at doing the one single thing EVERY hitter tries to do when he goes to the plate.

  218. Cameron Says:

    How much impact do SP have on the game?

    The MLB leader in Plate Appearances is Dustin Pedroia at 726.
    The MLB leader in Batters Faced is CC Sabathia at 985.

    About 250 at-bats more I guess.

  219. JohnBowen Says:

    I’m saying on games Verlander pitches, he’s the single most important person out on that field by a factor of 5…which makes up for the days he doesn’t pitch.

    Verlander has been involved with 969 plate appearances, during which time he’s held the American League to a .192/.242/.313 line. That’s an OPS+ – against of 54.

  220. JohnBowen Says:

    @218, right but you have to also consider baserunning and defense before we get too carried away.

    Ok @217 – let’s say you’ve got Yuniesky Betancourt and Curtis Granderson. Now who do you pick?

  221. Cameron Says:

    True, John, but the average SP has a big leg up on the average position player in making an impact on the game. Maybe not a big leg up, but enough for me to justify them as MVP candidates. Especially when you have guys like Verlander and Kershaw having the years they are.

  222. brautigan Says:

    John: Then you’re saying every starting pitcher is the most important player on the field.

    That is all you are saying and I’m still trying to quantify that. It’s not working for me.

  223. JohnBowen Says:

    “Then you’re saying every starting pitcher is the most important player on the field.”

    How many times does Justin Verlander get to impact a game?

    Answer: Every opposing at-bat.

    How many times does Miggy Cabrera get to impact a game?

    Answer: 4

  224. Cameron Says:

    I’m with John on this, braut, but it’s cool. To each his own.

  225. Chuck Says:

    Notice how John didn’t answer Braut’s question.

    Typical.

  226. Cameron Says:

    John, I’m just curious. Do you have to be right? I guess Chuck and everyone else to an extent. You guys argue stuff for a while, but you keep going. Do you ever just go “fuck it, I’m secure enough in my thoughts to not defend myself?”

    I used to be like that as a kid. But years of therapy and medication gave me an astounding ability to not give a fuck.

  227. brautigan Says:

    If you think Cabrera or Troy Tulowitzki or Adrian Gonzalez hasve an impact on a game only 4 times, ………………well, I’m not going to insult you. But you’re not having a Bill James moment right now.

  228. brautigan Says:

    I like that word: hasve. cool. gotta use it more often

  229. Cameron Says:

    Well braut, they have an average of 4 PA a game and SP have roughly 20-25 a game.

    However, given they only pitch every 5 games, they balance. While position players also run bases and play defense, there’s also guys who can actually pitch more than six innings a game.

    Fuck me if they aren’t getting harder to find, though.

  230. brautigan Says:

    Cam: It’s ok, I’ve played enough and watched enough baseball to know when I’ve stepped in it and to know when I’m right. My problem is when I intuitively know I’m right is when someone else points out another argument or an example which leads me to think again.

    There is just no way Justin Verlander has a greater impact by a factor of 5.

  231. JohnBowen Says:

    “There is just no way Justin Verlander has a greater impact by a factor of 5.”

    Then why do we insist on awarding pitchers wins and losses for games?

  232. Chuck Says:

    That seems to be the new thing with the stat crowd now, comparing a pitcher’s batters faced to a batter’s plate appearances, with fielding chances added in.

    I think it was Verducci I heard saying that a month or so ago, at the time he used Verlander and Curtis Granderson and their totals were around ten.

    Bob Costas was his broadcast partner and he fancies himself as some closet stat guy, but even he changed the subject.

  233. JohnBowen Says:

    For that matter, why are elite pitchers’ salaries on par with elite position players (excluding ARod)?

    If they were inherently less valuable as players, why pay them on the same level?

  234. Cameron Says:

    Scarcity. It’s harder to find a good starter than a good position player.

  235. Chuck Says:

    “Then why do we insist on awarding pitchers wins and losses for games?”

    How does that even remotely answer the question?

  236. Cameron Says:

    Doesn’t really answer the question… But why DO we give wins and losses to pitchers? The team wins the game, not the pitcher.

  237. Chuck Says:

    From a statistical standpoint, it’s how they’re judged.

    Batters get hits and walks and stolen bases, pitchers get wins and losses and ERA.

    Hence, the term “pitcher of record.”

  238. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, I know, it just seems kinda stupid to me at times. It’s kinda like when you say a word enough times and you think it doesn’t really sound like a word. It’s one of those stats I look at and go “why is this a stat?”

    Like saves. Man, pitchers get all the bullshit stats.

  239. Chuck Says:

    The stat probably had more credibility years ago because pitchers usually threw a complete game, so it was easy to say “winner” or “loser” because he was the only pitcher.

    Nowadays it’s a little less so because these overpaid pansies can’t throw 100 pitches and need five relief guys to finish what they started.

  240. Cameron Says:

    True, but it’s still an arbitrary sort of stat to me. It’s not really measuring that much. It’s more credible than some stats I’ve seen, but it’s not that great of a tool to measure guys.

  241. JohnBowen Says:

    “From a statistical standpoint, it’s how they’re judged.”

    No, it’s how you judge them.

    But the point still stands.

  242. Chuck Says:

    Not only is Betances pitching, but Montero’s catching.

    Might as well give Tampa the win and head for the airport.

  243. Cameron Says:

    Great, a kid who can’t pitch five innings being caught by a kid who can’t handle five pitches.

  244. Raul Says:

    Exactly @ Post 239.

  245. brautigan Says:

    I see where Micah Owings won last night to go 8-0 for the season. Did anyone catch his line? Ouch.

  246. Cameron Says:

    Holy fuck, that may be one of the worst wins I’ve ever seen.

  247. Cameron Says:

    About to take a big nostalgia trip. Gonna re-watch the first episode of Duckman. Awesome cartoon from back in the early 90s starring Jason Alexander.

  248. Cameron Says:

    First season, I meant. It’s worth it. You can find the first two seasons free on youtube, it’s worth checking out.

  249. John Says:

    Phillies come back and tie in the ninth, thanks largely to selfish walks.

  250. Cameron Says:

    If you’re the Phillies, do you really care? You’re already in the postseason and have home-field advantage through the World Series.

  251. brautigan Says:

    Tying run scored on an out. A sacrifice fly as I recall.

    The second run scored on another “out”, an error to Wilson.

  252. Lefty33 Says:

    It goes without saying that I’m amazed at the way Tampa has choked tonight.

    They had absolutely no fight left and they laid down and died to a Yankee team where Girardi announced before the game that most of the starters would be rested in some capacity and that the three big three in the pen with Rivera, Soriano, and Robertson would not pitch tonight win or lose.

    Down the stretch Tampa was good, not great as they only played something like 15-10 baseball over their last 25 games, but they took advantage of the Red Sox implosion to get back into the race.

    But regardless of how they played back into the race it truly is embarrassing what they’re doing tonight and that’s going to put a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, fans included, to come so far and then when it really matters to not even be competitive.

  253. John Says:

    The second Lefty posted that, Evan Longoria hit a 3-R HR. The Rays have scored 6 runs in the eighth to make it a 1-run game.

    Way to lay down Rays.

    LOL

  254. Lefty33 Says:

    “If you’re the Phillies, do you really care?”

    In a way they do.

    Up until the 9th they still had 7 of their regular starters in the game.

    They are in the 10th now and they still have four or five regulars playing.

  255. Lefty33 Says:

    “Way to lay down Rays.

    LOL”

    As of 10:22pm John. (A-Hole!)

  256. Lefty33 Says:

    Even still they were held to two hits thru 7 and 2/3 by seven pitchers.

    Five of which the general public couldn’t identify if their face was on the side of a milk carton.

  257. John Says:

    Tie game at the trop.

    Just embarrassing, Rays.

  258. Cameron Says:

    I don’t mean not caring by resting their guys, I mean how much can you really care? If I was on the best team in the league and was guaranteed as much as they were, I’d be phoning it in.

  259. Lefty33 Says:

    “I mean how much can you really care? If I was on the best team in the league and was guaranteed as much as they were, I’d be phoning it in.”

    True but when are in the second last week of the season with an eight game losing streak like the Phillies were last week you have to care that it doesn’t carry forward.

    Especially when you losing in the kind of apathetic ways that they were.

  260. Lefty33 Says:

    I just tuned back in to see that Scott Proctor is on the mound for NY.

    Cue up John Sterling: Ball Game Over! Rays Win! Thhhhhhhhhhhhhe Rays Win!

    I don’t know how they will but if he stays in the game The Rays will find a way to win. How Proctor is still a major league pitcher blows my mind.

    I though Torre killed him off two TJ’s ago.

  261. Cameron Says:

    Fair enough Lefty, I was just wondering how much guys on teams who already clinched care. Take the Tigers. Verlander was still pitching for the Triple Crown, but guys like Maggs and Betemir are basically thinking about October.

  262. Lefty33 Says:

    “Fair enough Lefty, I was just wondering how much guys on teams who already clinched care.”

    I would think plenty.

    You still need to stay sharp for the playoffs where as to me I would question more a guy on a team like the Mariners.

    You’re 28 out and if you’re lucky the franchise might be relevant and good in 2015. Now that’s depressing knowing that night in and night out you have no chance to win and that as of the first pitch of the season in April you are already as good as eliminated from any chance at the postseason.

  263. Cameron Says:

    I think they’d be trying harder. You know why? They’re playing to try and get a contract on a team that doesn’t suck.

  264. Lefty33 Says:

    Red Sox = Total Fail

  265. Raul Says:

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  266. Raul Says:

    Epic Collapse:

    Boston 2011 > New York 2004.

  267. Lefty33 Says:

    Scott Proctor does it again!

  268. Lefty33 Says:

    “Epic Collapse:

    Boston 2011 > New York 2004.”

    100% true, but it’s not apples to apples because the Red Sox had so many injuries to so many key players coming down the stretch and the Yankees in ‘04 did not have that issue.

    But, never let the facts stand in the way of a good story.

  269. JohnBowen Says:

    I just want to reiterate how embarrassing the Rays performance was tonight.

    Just kidding Lefty! This is one of the greatest nights of baseball ever.

    Except that the Cardinals…the most classless organization in sports…have gotten in too.

    The Phillies have only themselves to blame if Pujols hits another 500 foot HR off Brad Lidge in the NLDS.

  270. Cameron Says:

    Ladies and… Who am I kidding? This place is a sausagefest. The postseason teams have been determined!

    ALDS – Detroit Tigers @ New York Yankees
    ALDS – Tampa Bay Rays @ Texas Rangers
    NLDS – St. Louis Cardinals @ Philadelphia Phillies
    NLDS – Arizona Diamondbacks @ Milwaukee Brewers

    I’ll start work on my article tomorrow.

  271. JohnBowen Says:

    Cam, what’s your article, exactly.

  272. Raul Says:

    Don’t care about injuries.

    Boston had a 9 game lead on Tampa on September 1st.

  273. JohnBowen Says:

    I think one chick came by and posted here one time. For what it’s worth, my sister-in law (huge Yankees fan) lurks here. hi Amanda!

  274. Cameron Says:

    I had the idea to take the 8 postseason teams and do a short summary of exactly what a World Series victory would mean for these teams. Everybody has something to play for here. These teams all have great storylines and I’d love to tell ‘em.

  275. Lefty33 Says:

    “I just want to reiterate how embarrassing the Rays performance was tonight.”

    Hey my timing was perfect!

    Thanks in advance John as I know that you’ll never let me forget this ever.

  276. JohnBowen Says:

    @272, absolutely agree.

    We just witnessed two nine-game comebacks, where the teams coming back had less than a 1.5% chance of making the playoffs.

    That’s effing incredible.

  277. Cameron Says:

    Both incredible and incredibly sad to see two great teams fall that far that fast.

  278. JohnBowen Says:

    LOL @275…haha, this is just awesome shit.

  279. Lefty33 Says:

    “Boston had a 9 game lead on Tampa on September 1st.”

    Agreed Raul that’s a huge number but at the same time you can’t expect a team to keep rolling along when they have had major injuries to Crawford, Youkilis, Wheeler, Bucholz, Dice-K, Jenks, Hill, and Lackey is likely pitching with torn elbow ligament that will require a TJ at somepoint soon.

    No team has the resources to overcome that kind of injury onslaught and the people in Boston who think that Tito should get fired for this collapse are idiots.

    You can’t expect to win when your roster is comprised with a ton of AAA stiffs.

  280. Cameron Says:

    “Agreed Raul that’s a huge number but at the same time you can’t expect a team to keep rolling along when they have had major injuries to Crawford, Youkilis, Wheeler, Bucholz, Dice-K, Jenks, Hill, and Lackey is likely pitching with torn elbow ligament that will require a TJ at somepoint soon.”

    …So explain Atlanta’s implosion.

  281. Lefty33 Says:

    “…So explain Atlanta’s implosion.”

    You explain Atlanta’s implosion.

    I’m just saying that to ignore or poo-poo what injuries did to the Red Sox down the strech is simply ignorant.

  282. Cameron Says:

    I don’t know that Atlanta imploded because of injuries, so… Uh… The Braves don’t like Wednesdays? I really can’t explain how they dropped that many games that fast.

  283. Raul Says:

    “You can’t expect a team to keep rolling along when they have had major injuries to Crawford, Youkilis, Wheeler, Buchholz, Dice-K, Jenks, Hill and Lacky is likely pitching with a torn elbow ligament that will require a TJ at some point soon”

    You mean the same team that with all those players still had a 9 game lead on September 1st?

    Yeah, I can expect them not to blow a fucking 9 game lead.

  284. JohnBowen Says:

    Mike Napoli’s final line: .320/.414/.631, 30 HR.
    Vernon Wells’s final line: .218/.248/.412. 25 HR.

    Yikes. Anaheim probably should not have made that deal.

  285. JohnBowen Says:

    “Yeah, I can expect them not to blow a fucking 9 game lead.”

    I agree. But I’m not to fire anyone over this if I’m John Henry. Well, maybe release Lackey and eat the 50 million left on his deal.

  286. Raul Says:

    Vernon Wells’ contract might be the worst in baseball.

  287. Cameron Says:

    I’d fire John Lackey. …Out of a cannon. It’d draw money.

  288. Raul Says:

    I’m not saying Francona should be fired.
    I’m saying it’s a horrible performance in the final month of the regular season.

    Francona deserves a longer leash than that.

    I’m already thinking ahead for the Yankees.
    They’ve gotta face Justin Verlander in Game 1 and if Verlander beats Sabathia — the amount of pressure on Ivan Nova to win Game 2? Incredible.

  289. Lefty33 Says:

    “I really can’t explain how they dropped that many games that fast.”

    Same problem they had all year to me.

    They can’t hit.

    They only scored more than four runs five times in September and six times they were either shutout or scored only one run.

    This year they were 13th in team average at .244, 14th in OBP, but they were 4th in K’s. An undisciplined bunch of free swingers.

  290. JohnBowen Says:

    Guys, what a night. Seriously.

    The Red Sox had a 99.6% chance of making the playoffs on September 3rd.
    The Braves had a 99.2% chance of making the playoffs on August 25th.

    The Rays were at 0.5% on September 3rd.
    The Cards (who, again, are assholes and should be disbanded from the league) were at 1.1% on August 27th, and were as low at 6.8% 6 days ago.

    The 6th and 19th biggest comebacks ever, as well as the 3rd and 5th biggest collapses ever.

  291. Cameron Says:

    Who was the biggest collapse? I know the ‘64 Phillies and ‘95 Angels are up there.

  292. Raul Says:

    Insane @ John.

    It’s a lot to take in.
    Crazy season. The Pirates led the NL Central at the break or some shit.

  293. JohnBowen Says:

    @288, if I’m the Yankees, I’m not concerned with the Verlander-Sabathia matchups.

    Pretty close, really.

    I’m way more concerned about the Nova-Fister matchups.

    Fister for the year has a 139 ERA+, 1.063 WHIP, the fewest HR/9 of any pitcher in the league, over 216 IP.

    Great trade by Detroit.

  294. Cameron Says:

    Not only that, but we have the first time since 1924 where both the AL and NL have pitchers winning Triple Crowns.

  295. JohnBowen Says:

    @291:

    http://www.coolstandings.com/collapses.asp?i=1&sn=2011

    The Angels are first.

    The ‘64 Phillies are 8th.

  296. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, that Angels collapse was pretty epic. Not only that, but you know the scary thing? If they won that playoff game, we’d be seeing the Tampa Bay Mariners play today.

    …And probably have records to make the old Devil Rays teams blush.

  297. Raul Says:

    If the Mariners go to Tampa, Griffey probably never leaves the team.

  298. Lefty33 Says:

    “The Pirates led the NL Central at the break or some shit.”

    In reality they are the biggest collapse of the season.

    “Who was the biggest collapse? I know the ‘64 Phillies and ‘95 Angels are up there.”

    ‘64 Phillies win every time because of how it happened.

    The Phillies were up 6 1/2 with 12 to play and then Mauch decides to go with Bunning and Short on 2 days rest over and over and they lose ten in a row in the process.

    This became known as The Phold and at least three books and a few SABR-analysis papers have been written about Mauch’s panic “strategy”.

  299. Raul Says:

    NY hasn’t seen a lot of Doug Fister.

    70 Total ABs for the team.
    .300/.329/.500
    3 homers

  300. Raul Says:

    LOL @ “the phold”

    I was young but I vaguely remember Randy Johnson (epic mullet intact) dominating towards the end of that 1995 season.

  301. JohnBowen Says:

    “‘64 Phillies win every time because of how it happened.”

    That’s fair…I’m just going off the overall statistical likelihood of making the playoffs, which is obviously skewed towards teams that had a WC to fall back on.

    The ‘64 Phillies will always be the go-to example.

    “In reality they are the biggest collapse of the season.”

    Disagree, because they (like the Indians) were not that good to begin with. Them leading as late as they did was a fluke, and they regressed in a hurry.

  302. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, the ‘95 Angels had one thing that makes it a bit sadder if you ask me. Them winning five of their last six forced a playoff. They still had a little bit of hope, despite them sliding from an 11-game lead in a short season.

    …And lost. All that hope got salvaged by a hot week right when they needed it, and they lost it all on The Double.

    It was like the baseball gods were toying with them that year.

  303. JohnBowen Says:

    “…And lost. All that hope got salvaged by a hot week right when they needed it, and they lost it all on The Double.”

    Tim Salmon played like a champion that year, ESPECIALLY in the second half.

    Fun fact: Griffey only played 70 or so games for the Mariners that year (but had an epic ALDS).

  304. Cameron Says:

    Everything about that ‘95 ALDS was epic. I’ve got tapes of that lying around somewhere. That’s about as good as baseball gets.

  305. JohnBowen Says:

    Tonight is as good as baseball gets.

  306. Raul Says:

    Honestly…

    When Edgar Martinez hit that ball and Ken Griffey Jr scored…that was the lowest feeling I ever had as a fan of baseball.

    Even lower than 2004.

  307. JohnBowen Says:

    Thanks largely to David Price and Jake Westbrook, I ended up losing 5-4-1 in the baseball world series. Bummer. Probably overthought the final week with all my waver moves. Oh well…

  308. JohnBowen Says:

    “When Edgar Martinez hit that ball and Ken Griffey Jr scored…that was the lowest feeling I ever had as a fan of baseball.”

    Kinda gets forgotten, ya know? Because the Yankees won 4 WS in 5 years immediately following that.

    But yeah, after 14 years of total futility, I can definitely see that.

  309. Cameron Says:

    I can understand. KC has a long memory for people who fuck us in postseason related matters.

    Chris Chambliss
    The Philadelphia Phillies
    Herk Robinson

    And I vaguely remember John Mayberry fucking something up…

  310. JohnBowen Says:

    You’re my age. You don’t remember John Mayberry.

  311. Raul Says:

    lmao @ 310

  312. Cameron Says:

    Not directly, but there was a story… I think it was a championship series in ‘75 where he showed up stoned off his ass from the party the night before.

  313. JohnBowen Says:

    “Mr. Mayberry did not come to the park prepared to play.”

  314. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, that story.

  315. JohnBowen Says:

    Though hardly an excuse. I wonder how many of the ‘86 Mets are even aware that they won the World Series that year?

  316. Raul Says:

    I read this book by Jeff Pearlman on the 86 Mets called “The Bad Guys Won”

    After reading about the 1986 NLCS, you’d have thought THAT was the World Series.

  317. Cameron Says:

    I’m pretty sure all of them sobered up eventually and were told about it. …Well, all of ‘em except Dr. K.

    But at least the ‘86 Mets weren’t so high they couldn’t play.

  318. JohnBowen Says:

    @316, what do you mean exactly?

    I mean, it was nuts. Mike Scott was unbelievable.

  319. Cameron Says:

    The Bad Guys may have won, but fuck me if Mike Scott didn’t try to stop ‘em.

  320. Raul Says:

    It was just an amazing series @ John.

    NLCS Game 6 went 16 innings.
    Then the Mets went on a fucking drug/alcohol rampage on the way back to NY.

    I think they caused like $100,000 worth of damage to the plane.

    Or maybe my mind is just screwed up

  321. Cameron Says:

    Huh, didn’t know this. The Texas Rangers have set AL records for most runs scored by one team (30, 2007) and helped on most combined runs in a game (36, 19-17 win vs. Boston, 2008).

    And despite all that offense, they still couldn’t hit the postseason. Shows you how important pitching really is, huh?

  322. JohnBowen Says:

    “The Texas Rangers have set AL records for most runs scored by one team (30, 2007)”

    Some guy, whose name escapes me, received a “save” for that 30-3 game. The dude pitched the last 3 innings of the game.

  323. Lefty33 Says:

    “I mean, it was nuts. Mike Scott was unbelievable.”

    It’s amazing what a splitter and enough sandpaper to stock a Home Depot can do. He’s bar none was the epitome of what cheating could do for you.

    He had shit for a career until he started cheating.

    No doubt Scott inspired this classic scene. Watch from 2:30-2:50.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-S-eeInJVk

  324. Lefty33 Says:

    Wes Littleton got the save.

  325. JohnBowen Says:

    That’s the guy…

  326. JohnBowen Says:

    “Curse of the Andino” LOL

  327. Raul Says:

    The Naked Gun was such a great movie.

  328. Raul Says:

    Really?

    Does every fucking thing need to be about Derek Jeter?

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7032587/new-york-mets-shortstop-jose-reyes-cheated-team-fans-exiting-season-finale-early

  329. Lefty33 Says:

    “Yeah, I can expect them not to blow a fucking 9 game lead.”

    Like I said you’re right that you normally wouldn’t expect that but again how do you expect any team to overcome that many injuries?

    They played most or part of September without Youkilis, Varitek, Saltalamacchia, Drew, Dice-K, Hill, Jenks, Kalish, Atchsion, Crawford, Wheeler, and Beckett.

    Eventually you are going to get exposed when 5 or 6 out of your eleven opening day pitchers are on the DL and you’re starting a rookie catcher because your other two are hurt.

    The Phillies last week started resting their regulars and they lost eight in a row because instead of playing Howard, Polanco, Utley, and Victorino they’re playing Gload, Martinez, Orr, and Francisco.

    You’re not going to win with AAA talent on the field.

    If anyone takes the fall for this it’ll be Theo. He put the team together and while they had a ton of guys miss time even when they were healthy the big money FA’s he brought in this year and last were duds.

  330. JohnBowen Says:

    I will point out that Adrian Gonzalez worked out as advertised and better.

    Crawford, Lackey? Yuck.

  331. Raul Says:

    I love this little gem:

    “Williams believed he didn’t deserve a .400 average if he sat out the two games against the Philadelphia A’s, and he wound up going 6-for-8, finishing with the improbable .406. Most people think that mark will never be broken.”

    Batting .406 is a mark that will never be broken?
    Really? It’s the 17th best BA of all-time. It’s not even close to the record.

  332. JohnBowen Says:

    a) I could care less about what Hugh Duff for the 1495 Madrid Conquistadors.
    b) The fact that it’s not the all-time record doesn’t make the statement incorrect.

    In 2004, Bonds slugged .812. I have doubts about that mark ever being broken, even if it’s not actually the record.

  333. Raul Says:

    “The fact that it’s not the all-time record doesn’t make the statement incorrect.”

    Yes, it does.
    Facts are facts. They are not subject to interpretation.

  334. Raul Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VKAd7urSeo

    For the Red Sox fans…

  335. JohnBowen Says:

    “Most people think that mark will never be broken”

    Has that mark been broken since 1941?

    The author, or whoever, used the word “mark,” not “all-time record.” The mark of .406 has not been broken since Ted Williams did it.

  336. Lefty33 Says:

    “Crawford, Lackey? Yuck.”

    Add on Okajima at 1.75, Jenks at 6.0, Dice-K at 10.0, Wheeler at 3.0, Drew at 14.0, Salty and Varitek gave them zero offensively this year and Wakefield at 2.5 equal a lot of wasted money.

  337. JohnBowen Says:

    I agree with 336, except for: “Salty and Varitek gave them zero offensively this year”

    Red Sox catchers, as hitters, were 9% better than their peers at the catching position in 2011, (by OPS+).

    I’d be more concerned with Salty’s league-worst 26 passed balls (Wakefield?).

  338. Lefty33 Says:

    When Wakefield starts Varitek is his personal catcher.

    “Red Sox catchers, as hitters, were 9% better than their peers at the catching position in 2011″

    Salty and Varitek also K’d over 180 times and had an OBP below .300.

  339. Lefty33 Says:

    “I’d be more concerned with Salty’s league-worst 26 passed balls (Wakefield?).”

    Upon further review Salty caught Wakefield exclusivly in the 2nd half.

  340. Raul Says:

    Fuckin A.
    2:07 start (west coast time) for Tampa vs Texas.

    Guess I’ll either take a late lunch or early happy hour.

  341. Lefty33 Says:

    “early happy hour”

    Duh, that’s an easy choice.

  342. Mike Felber Says:

    It has been an Epic fat in baseball indeed.

    Anyone who thinks they never lost an argument is certifiable. Just postulating average=median = losing that one. To cherry pick from the entertaining exchanges: pitchers going every 5 games & throwing 7-8 IP a start + just about the potential impact as position players. More batters faced, less defensive work & their batting does not help. When it was every 4th day, they had at least the impact as others.

    So some years pitchers can clearly be the best player & deserve the MVP. Is Verlander an example? Very possibly. Depends also if you consider value is properly assessed by the team’s situation & your ability to add worth. I think it should be overwhelmingly based upon contributions, not factors they cannot control.

    Having a lively E-Mail exchange witha primary player at baseballevolution.com. If anyone is interested in my objections to their top 200 list & Asher’s defense, ask away.

  343. Mike Felber Says:

    ‘”fat”? A particularly egregious double typo on a so simple word: I meant “day”. This is more likely to happen when you place your laptop on your stomach & lean back so far you are almost completely lying down, keyboard at an oblique & elevated angle. Uber-lazy!

  344. Chuck Says:

    “When Edgar Martinez hit that ball and Ken Griffey Jr scored…that was the lowest feeling I ever had as a fan of baseball.”

    Luis fucking Gonzalez.

  345. Chuck Says:

    “Having a lively E-Mail exchange witha primary player at baseballevolution.com. If anyone is interested in my objections to their top 200 list & Asher’s defense, ask away.”

    Pass.

  346. Jim Says:

    Injuries weren’t the reason the Sox collapsed, it was because outside of Pedroia, Ellsbury and Scutaro the starters were lackadaisical and the pitching staff outside of Aceves and Pap performed at a level that would have had them losing in AAA. Beckett and Lester, the staff aces, failed when the team needed them. Gonzales and Papi disappeared and Crawford offered nothing. An aside to Johns post on the biggest disappointments, it should be Crawford over Wells. Wells performance was really the player he now is, Crawford was expected to be a player who someday will be considered for the HoF, not a copy of Roberto Kelly.

    The Rays’ played well in September 0.630, but certainly didn’t streak like the 2007 Rockies. If the Sox had won 7 games in September they’d be in. Even with the injuries 7 games wasn’t beyond that teams capability.

    Regarding Wakefield wanting to come back, Tim its not about you and your Sisyphean pursuit of the all time Sox leader in wins, enjoy your retirement.

  347. Chuck Says:

    My Dad’s a big Red Sox fan and I feel for him this morning, but otherwise don’t feel sorry for Red Sox Nation at all.

    You build a nine game lead over five months and blow it in three weeks?

    Sorry, I have no sympathy for you.

    Same with the Braves, too.

    You all deserve to be playing golf today.

  348. JohnBowen Says:

    @343, Mike, I love ya man, but you just used 45 words to say “*epic day, not fat, my bad.”

  349. Lefty33 Says:

    “Gonzales and Papi disappeared and Crawford offered nothing.”

    Gonzalez hit .318 in September with a slash of .455/.523/.977.

    Yeah, that really stank.

    “Even with the injuries 7 games wasn’t beyond that teams capability”

    It was a season of massive injuries and of massive underachieving.

    In the final month of the season both catchers were hurt and Francona was playing and starting an untested rookie.

    Youkilis played in 12 games from August 15th until the end of the season while hitting around .160 during that time trying to play thru a hernia and hip bursitis that will require off season surgery.

    Drew didn’t play more than 20 games in a month after May and missed almost the entire final two months of the season.

    When you combine the lackluster play of the LF and DH with the injuries to the RF, C, and 3B it’s hard for me to see how you’re going to hit when you’ve got Jed Lowrie batting cleanup in the final week of the season.

    Beckett missed a start or two in September.

    Lackey is likely pitching with a partially torn Ulnar ligament.

    Buchholz only made 14 starts all season.

    Miller had an ERA of nine this year at Fenway.

    Wheeler, Bedard, Atchison, Jenks, Dice-K all had time on the DL and the team had no real LOOGY with Okajima spending the year in AAA and Reyes missing almost the whole season with an injury.

    The injuries to the Red Sox pitching staff are what killed them.

    Both the Braves and the Red Sox got exposed for what they were.

    The Braves were a one dimensional undisciplined free swinging team that couldn’t hit and when the pitching failed down the stretch they went down with it.

    The Red Sox had a catastrophic combination of injuries and underachieving that finally caught up with them.

    Going forward its far worse for the Red Sox than the Braves just based on Boston owing $51 million dollars a season thru 2014 to Crawford, Lackey, and Beckett.

    Theo should get toasted based on that alone.

  350. Chuck Says:

    Cameron…send your article to John to have him post it for you…I really won’t be around much this weekend..golf tournament, AFL media day, so if it’s a playoff preview I won’t get to it before the games start.

  351. Cameron Says:

    Thanks for the tip, Chuck. John, I still got your email address lying around.

  352. brautigan Says:

    Jacoby Ellsbury: Has there been a lead off hitter with 100 rbi’s? (I know he had 97 ribbies as a true lead off and 7 more from the 9 spot and 1 from the 8th spot. Still, that’s a mind blower.) Anyone else can think of a lead off hitter with 100 rbi’s?

  353. Lefty33 Says:

    “Anyone else can think of a lead off hitter with 100 rbi’s?”

    Darin Erstad in ‘00.

  354. John Says:

    Darin Erstad in 2000 punted exactly 100 RBI, I believe all from the leadoff spot.

    Alfonso Soriano in 2002 had 102, but not all leading off.

    Obviously very tough for an NL leadoff man to do…Rickie Weeks had 83 last year.

  355. Chuck Says:

    Of all the weird, statistical anomalies of this season, Ellsbury’s numbers are so far off the charts it ranks, at least IMO, as one of the most statistically freakish seasons of all-time.

    There are no words to describe what he did.

  356. Lefty33 Says:

    Soriano had 99 in ‘02.

    Samuel had 100 in ‘87 but it was split 50/50 between him hitting leadoff and 3rd.

    Nomar had 98 in ‘97.

  357. Raul Says:

    Darin Erstad was a punter!

  358. Cameron Says:

    Samuel? Juan Samuel?

  359. Cameron Says:

    Heh, I love indy wrestling crowds. Watching an event where the crowd insults a wrestler by breaking out into a “Justin Bieber!” chant. Guy looks just like him.

    You don’t see that out of big wrestling crowds, they’re nice. Small crowds will rip you to shreds.

  360. Raul Says:

    There was that one time my buddies and I had the entire Yankees bleacher section chanting “Dir-ty San-chez” at former Devil Ray Alex Sanchez.

    :)

  361. Cameron Says:

    Right filed bleachers? Because the Bleacher Creatures will chant anything.

  362. Raul Says:

    Yep. We were a little further away from the Bleacher Creatures. They’re typically in the first few rows by the foul pole.
    We were closer to the black seats. It was hilarious — because you could tell some people didn’t get the double entendre.

    Seriously, time for another article. My comp is freezing up.

  363. Chuck Says:

    I’m sure that was probably the first time any fans had even acknowledged Sanchez existed.

    I’m guessing his biggest concern was trying to keep his boner from popping out from underneath his cup.

  364. Cameron Says:

    Don’t worry Raul, I’m working on my article right now.

    Also working on an extra large pizza, though.

  365. Jim Says:

    Sorry Lefty, using injuries would be a cheap excuse. On Sept 1 the Sox were on a pace to win 98-99 games. If that team had played .300 ball they would be in the playoffs. Road kill most likely but in the playoffs none the less.

  366. Chuck Says:

    The Red Sox played the Rays seven times this month.

    They lost six.

    ’nuff said.

  367. Jim Says:

    Two different reactions from players to the Sox collapse, from Pete Abraham of the Globe.

    Adrian Gonzales

    “Gonzalez sat in a chair in front of his locker and insisted that it was all part of God’s plan that the Red Sox failed to make the playoffs.

    “It’s definitely something that didn’t plan for. We were wholly confident that we would make the playoffs but it didn’t happen,” he said. “We didn’t do a better job with the lead. I’m a firm believer that God has a plan and it wasn’t in his plan for us to move forward.”

    Asked what he saw from the team this month, Gonzalez stayed on his theme.

    “God didn’t have it in the cards for us,” he said.”

    This morning Agon was blaming the schedule.

    Carl Crawford

    “Crawford, meanwhile, stood at his locker last night and answered every question thrown at him with honest, direct answers.

    “It’s a heartbreaker for us,” he said. “It was definitely a bad feeling. It’s unfortunate we didn’t make it. We can only blame ourselves. We put ourselves in this position.”

    Crawford later said it was “embarrassing personally” to be part of the historic collapse.

    “I know what kind of season I had. I know what I did,” he said. “I have to go back home and live with that. It’s going to be a tough offseason for me. I have to come back and prove myself.”"

    Abraham’s opinion is that Crawford was being accountable and Gonzales was not. I agree, God doesn’t give shit who wins a baseball game.

  368. Raul Says:

    God doesn’t care who wins games.
    Because there is no God.

  369. Jim Says:

    Even if someone believes there is a god, he doesn’t care who wins.

  370. Chuck Says:

    I wonder what Gonzalez will say about God’s plan if Ellsbury wins MVP?

    He’ll probably go Jehovah or something.

    Three months from now Jim will be outside shoveling snow and Gonzalez will walk up to him with a bible and a collection plate.

  371. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree there is no God. Some of the dumbest & most destructive pieces of morality & fear mongering come from religion. But so do some of the most inspiring, loving & helpful philosophies. But using god as an excuse & explanation for things is absurd. The closest that comes to reality is if God is a stand in for determinism-but that is not what AG meant.

    Right John, nobody needed to know about my extreme reclining position. But you must have seen by now I firmly disagree with the mentality that shorter is always better. Some things, like this forum, are done for the pure fun of self expression & sharing. Hence folks have long diatribes about irrelevant to baseball matters, & sometimes share trivial, bawdy, & hobby related aspects of their lives.

    Pithy does not equal preferably for all, let alone for the writer.

  372. Raul Says:

    Mike you still doing art exhibits?

  373. Jim Says:

    Mike, please be as verbose as you like.

    @Chuck. I’ll put a moldy sandwich on his plate and then sic the dog on him.

  374. Cameron Says:

    Ah, collection plates… I used them to make change when I still went to church.

  375. Mike Felber Says:

    Heh, thanks Jim, I need little prompting to go on! My newsletters re: art are detailed & colorful, & I like to think I am self deprecating by saying i am a writeaholic.

    Raul, my 1st 2 were 6 months apart on the advice of a consultant who helped me then (to build up momentum) started in fall of ‘09, but this year & beyond it will be yearly, like most all Open Studios for a neighborhood/whole weekend festivals. I had it June 24-26th, & just over a month later received my 127 page arts & cultural magazine from Texas. These are not now profit making ventures. I left the umbrella of a 501 (3) C recently, & will soon finalize forming my own. I have my Webmaster working on a much expanded & eloquent online version. But here is the current magazine online:

    attheedge.artistsinthekitchen.org. For my web site, just the words after the 1st “.”. Sponsor & media kit link has promo stuff-funky postcard invites, maps, videos, social media…And I am very happy with the actual Media kits, a collaborative homemade effort I micromanaged. But I need a skilled ad/magazine sales person to monetize it. Only I sold ads, cheap, but someone w/time & experience to get Corporate support, we could add a zero to the price.

  376. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 358 – Yes that Juan Samuel.

    The same guy who is now the Phillies 3rd base coach.

    From ‘84-’87 he was the best leadoff hitter in the NL.

    In ‘87 he goes .272/28/100 along with .335/.502/.837 while leading the NL with 15 triples. (Just ignore the 162 K’s.)

  377. Cameron Says:

    Sorry, I didn’t know how good Samuel was. I only know him as a manger so bad he got fired for Buck Showalter.

  378. Lefty33 Says:

    “Sorry Lefty, using injuries would be a cheap excuse.”

    Sorry Jim but to ignore the role that injuries played in their collapase would just be ignorant of the facts.

    You want to rip on a team for being inept? Make it the Braves.

    They were a lot closer to 100% health than Boston was and if you think that your going to be able to play the same when your team is at 100% health versus 60% then your clueless.

    Boston got exposed because they had over 50% of their opening day pitching roster on the DL at the end of the season. When you are running AAA talent out there in critical situations your chances of failure are high.

  379. Lefty33 Says:

    “Sorry, I didn’t know how good Samuel was.”

    When Sammy came up people thought that he was going to be the best leadoff hitter ever.

    He could steal bases like Raines but he could also hit for power like Henderson.

    His downfall was that he struck out like Deer.

    Sammy never saw a slider in the dirt that he wouldn’t chase.

  380. Chuck Says:

    Samuel shares, with Vince DiMaggio, Reggie Jackson, Mark Reynolds and Hack Wilson, the ML record for consecutive years leading the their respective league in strikeouts with four.

  381. brautigan Says:

    Erstad. Man, I forgot about that season. Easily his best year.

  382. brautigan Says:

    Oregon’s own RIck Wise was on that 1964 Phillies team. About 2 months after pitching against my home town in the State playoffs. (I’m talking high school) You just don’t see that anymore. Not since Robin Yount went from high school to shortstop with the Milwaukee Brewers in 1974.

  383. Jim Says:

    Lefty the team that the RS put out on the field even with the injuries, was better than a .259 team. The failure to make the playoffs wasn’t due to the injuries, but the failure of the players on the field to execute at a major league level. If you watched most of the games as I did you would have seen myriad missed opportunities to end innings or move a runner along.

    Beckett and Lester were a combined 2 for 6 with 2 no decisions, Daniel Bard blew 3 saves and outright lost one game out of 7 appearances. Those three were healthy during September, excepting Beckett’s missed start for an ankle sprain and all were players who had good to outstanding seasons till September but they folded. During 2011, the Sox only came back to win when trailing after the 7th inning once. So even when they were riding high there was evidence that they would quit.

    Injuries would have been why the team would have been out of the playoffs in 3 games, but they were not the reason they are not in the playoffs.

  384. Cameron Says:

    .259? The Astros weren’t a .259 team. The ‘62 Mets weren’t a .259 team. Holy fuck.

  385. Lefty33 Says:

    “If you watched most of the games as I did you would have seen myriad missed opportunities to end innings or move a runner along.”

    Then somehow you must have missed the AAA talent out on the field.

    Saltalamacchia – Injured
    Varitek – Injured
    Youkilis – DL
    Drew – DL
    Beckett – Injured
    Lackey – Injured
    Bedard – DL
    Buchholz – DL
    Dice K –DL
    Atchison – DL
    Jenks – DL
    Hill – DL
    Wheeler – DL
    Reyes – DL

    You’re right Jim your argument makes perfect sense.

    Of the twelve opening day pitchers on the Boston roster seven of them either were injured or on the DL in September. But I know that in your world Tito is just supposed to pull a fucking rabbit out of a hat and make lemonade out of lemons.

    No team can have their pitching staff that decimated and expect to win.

    The smoke and mirrors bullshit show was bound to implode. It was either happening in the regular season or Boston would have gotten bounced painlessly in the DS.

    This Red Sox team reminds me a lot of the ’08 Yankees.

    At the end of the season everyone was so “stunned” that they didn’t make the playoffs but in reality it was easy to see that they were a poorly put together team and then when you add massive amounts of injuries with no one to backfill those positions you lose.

  386. Chuck Says:

    Red Sox started the season 2-10.

    They start 5-5 they’re in the postseason and Francona’s still employed.

    September cemented their season, but they didn’t lose the postseason because of it.

    Still think April doesn’t matter?

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