Bigger Surprise: Orioles or Dodgers?

by JohnBowen

As I’m writing this, the Dodgers and Orioles are both in first place, with neither team expected to make a major splash in the off-season (though our very own Thomas Wayne did predict a major improvement for the O’s this season.

The Orioles currently sit at 29-19 (though they’re losing to the Blue Jays as I write). The bats have been there, with 5 regulars posting OPS+’s above 110, most notably the recently extended Adam Jones, who is currently fourth in the American League with 14 home runs and 3rd with a .595 slugging percentage. Much bigger of a surprise has been the absolute dominance of their bullpen, which has posted a 2.40 ERA through 164 innings of work.

The Dodgers have been roughly a .500 team the last couple of years after making back-to-back ALCS’s in 2008 and 2009. They were led until recently by the 2011 MVP-runner-up Matt Kemp, but he hasn’t appeared in a game since May 13 due to injury. With 2011 Cy Young winner Clayton Kershaw displaying his usual dominance and 33-year old Chris Capuano enjoying a resurrection on the West Coast, the Dodgers have posted the second best ERA in the National League, which has contributed to their MLB-best 32-15 record (currently tied 1-1 against the Milwaukee Brewers).

So, my question to the group – which start has surprised you more?

797 Responses to “Bigger Surprise: Orioles or Dodgers?”

  1. Cameron Says:

    Definitely the O’s. The Dodgers were supposed to just turn out another .500 season or so, so this isn’t surprising. I had Baltimore pegged around the third-worst team in the AL solely because of Oakland and Seattle and… Well, I look like fucking Nostradamus right now.

    Also, how did the Dodgers get into the ALCS? I thought the Astros were supposed to be moving.

  2. Jim Says:

    The O’s, improvement was expected, but no one anticipated them being good. A couple of season back the Dodger’s were considered a disappointment. The key players on that team are still on the club and are a reason for the 2012 success.

  3. Raul Says:

    The Orioles are the more suprising team right now.
    But if Los Angeles finishes the season in 1st place, that will be more suprising overall. LA’s pitchers are not that good, and I expect them to hit some rough patches as the year goes on.

    I expect neither team to win their division.

  4. Bob Says:

    Yes. The O’s. Yours truly predicted the Dodgers to win the West in Kerry’s contest.

  5. Chuck Says:

    ” Yours truly predicted the Dodgers to win the West in Kerry’s contest.”

    So did I

  6. Bob Says:

    1. The Dodgers made an offer to Oswalt

    2. Caught 2 brown and one rainbow trout on Sunday. One brown was caught on a Mepps.

  7. Bob Says:

    @5. Well then the Orioles are the bigger surprise to both of us.

  8. Raul Says:

    Chris Capuano has never been this good and Ted Lilly is a bomb waiting to happen.

    Capuano has been good on the road thus far — and Cy Young at Dodger Stadium. Is that gonna last?

    Lilly has much worse splits. Just as good as Capuano at Dodger Stadium…and more like a nightmare on the road.

    The Dodgers better sign Oswalt if they know what’s good for them.

  9. Patrick Says:

    The Orioles are the surprise because of their division. Already 6 guys with 55 HR between them and that’s not counting Mark Reynolds or Riemold. Reimold was their best hitter in April with 5 HR and a .960 OPS before he got hurt. If Brian Roberts comes back, maybe Andino will move to 3B and they deal Reynolds? Anyway, the bullpen has been great (so far) and Adam Jones looks like he’s ready to lead them to the playoffs, but it ain’t going to be easy. I think they will be around 50-40 and in 3rd place at the break.

    Right now, Boston really is the worst team in the East, and that means the AL East is probably the best division ever.

    Concerning LA, I’m happy for Mattingly and I think he’s going to win that division fairly easy. I like Girardi as a manager too, but I was hoping Donnie got the Yanks job. I’m glad to see him winning but I’m not surprised. Showalter too (another Yank!).

  10. Chuck Says:

    John, if you are lurking and reading this.

    I have it from a reliable source the Rockies have asked Todd Helton to waive his no-trade at the request of the Brewers.

    Helton has said yes.

    Whether they can make a deal or not remains to be seen, but I thought you’d feel a twinge in your boxers over that one.

  11. Cameron Says:

    Is it sad that an extremely past his prime Todd Helton is a vast improvement in Milwaukee?

  12. Raul Says:

    KC is at 19-28.

    Despite how bad the pitching staff has been, you have to imagine they’d be pretty close to .500 if Hosmer and Gordon performed like they did last year.

    Looks like Mike Montgomery can’t seem to figure out AAA, though. That’s gotta be disheartening.

  13. Cameron Says:

    It’s hard for a Royals fan to get disheartened Raul. We’re pretty used to getting fucked over by one thing or another. It’s just become the norm by this point.

  14. Raul Says:

    Seems like a strange marriage. Helton hasn’t shown any real power in years and has been alternating between good and bad years in terms of batting average.

    I suppose he’s still serviceable defensively.

  15. Chuck Says:

    1) Biggest surprise..Orioles, no doubt.

    2) Mepps? What’s in it, vodka?

    3) Ted Lilly’s already Bob’s fish..he’s on the DL with a shoulder strain. Didn’t think he threw hard enough to strain his shoulder, but, oh, well.

    4) Oswalt is going back to Philly or with Texas. The Cardinals really want him, but Oswalt isn’t interested unless they give him biiiiiiiiiiiiiig money.

    5) Mark Reynolds has no trade value. Zero. Nada. Zip.

    6) “Boston’s the worst team in the East”…who needs Viagra?

    7) Girardi sucks as a manager, but he’s not as bad as Buck.

  16. Cameron Says:

    Eric Hosmer’s actually been kind of entertaining this season. Every time I look at his stat lines, I’m just baffled.

    Current Line: .202/6/25 (7 2B, 15 BB)

    He’s hitting the most productive Mendoza Line performance I’ve ever seen.

  17. Raul Says:

    I understand that. But Montgomery was a top 20 prospect and has become very hittable in Omaha.

    Assuming Odorizzi pitches ok this year, the Royals need to give him a shot at starting in KC in 2013.

  18. Cameron Says:

    Raul, lots of guys are hittable in Omaha. It’s not exactly the hitter’s paradise Northwest Arkansas is, but Omaha ain’t friendly to pitching.

  19. Bob Says:

    Mepps is a fishing lure meant for trout. Has some hooks in it, no vodka. Did its thing for me.

  20. Chuck Says:

    The only thing you need when fishing for trout is a box of matches, a lemon, and a bottle of Prosecco.

  21. Bob Says:

    Technically, that is all I need for any kind of fishing. From makos to minnows

  22. Bob Says:

    Pedroia is out of the line-up today. Jim, what are you hearing about him in Boston?

  23. Bob Says:

    Rangers + Roy Oswalt = happy marriage.

  24. Chuck Says:

    Rangers signed Oswalt to a one year deal.

    Pedroia out with a jammed thumb.

    Rumor has it he was knocked down by David Ortiz in a race for the fifth inning chicken delivery.

  25. Bob Says:

    It’s the pitchers that race for chicken. And Pedroia played his ass off for Francona. Kind of like what he is doing for Valentine.

  26. Cameron Says:

    The more I hear about the bullshit in Boston, the more respect I gain for Dustin. He gives no fucks, just plays ball. I like that.

  27. Bob Says:

    And he gave up his baseball scholarship to boot. Class act all the way. As is Adam Jones in Baltimore.

  28. Bob Says:

    See you guys tomorrow.

  29. Raul Says:

    Boston should be fine. They’re at .500 now and that offense has enough juice to win games.

    Lester isn’t as bad as he’s been pitching and Matsuzaka is, at the very least, above average and on his way to coming back.

    Conservatively speaking, they simply need to stick around 5-7 games above .500 until mid-August, when they will have the opportunity to make a run when all the divisional games come up.

    The team that should really be concerned is the Yankees. Sabathia appears to have slipped a bit, Kuroda doesn’t match up well against anyone’s #2, Hughes is atrocious, and Pettitte is unreliable at best. Toss in the fact that A-Rod is about as feared as a ladybug, Mark Teixeira is an overpaid Carlos Pena, and Mariano Rivera is done for the year, the Yankees are lucky if they finish 4th, and it’ll be a sheer miracle if they finish 3rd.

  30. Chuck Says:

    I don’t recall Pedroia ever throwing Valentine under the bus, though.

    Maybe he’s just filling the clubhouse asshole role while Youkilis is gone.

  31. JohnBowen Says:

    Awesome news @Chuck

    I can’t think of what we could have that the Rockies would want. But yeah, Helton, even at 37 or whatever, without 20 HR power, would be a vast vast vast improvement over Ishakawa.

    We’ve been playing Hart over there, essentially making Aoki a full-time player.

  32. Chuck Says:

    Ishikawa’s on the DL.

    Guess who’s the lead on a potential new Padres ownership group?

    Phil Mickelson.

  33. Jim Says:

    @22 Jammed his thumb a few weeks ago and further injured it on a diving, sliding catch & throwout in yesterday’s game. He’s day to day and wearing a brace to isolate the thumb. From Pedey’s and Bobby V’s comments, if the WS were starting today he would have played.

    BTW Nava, had a 3 RBI double off Verlander tonight.

  34. Cameron Says:

    Phil Mickelson? Didn’t know he was a baseball fan.

  35. Raul Says:

    Picked up Jarrod Parker on my fantasy team.
    He goes out and pitches 6 innings of 1-hit baseball. Brian Fuentes blows a 2-0 lead in the bottom of the 9th.

    Oakland 2
    Minnesota 3

    Brian Fuentes, I don’t like you very much right now.

  36. Raul Says:

    Parker allowed 4 hits, sorry.

  37. Bob Says:

    @ 30. I do not recall Pedroia throwing Valentine under a bus either.

  38. Chuck Says:

    My favorite line;

    “We start by comparing the player to average in a variety of venues and then compare our theoretical replacement player to the average player and add the two results together.”


  39. Bob Says:

    @ 33. If the WS started last night, Boston would be elsewhwere. And they would be watching Texas play somebody?

  40. Jim Says:

    yeah, eating chicken and sipping suds.

    The Pedroia rumors are all over the place this morning. Will he or won’t he go on the DL? Will he be out a month? Or will he sit for a couple of games and wear a splint when not playing. A club release said his injury is a torn abductor muscle, but there is no tendon or ligament damage.

    My guess is the club will wait a couple of days to see how fast the swelling goes down.

  41. Chuck Says:

    Heard the same thing…Red Sox are trying to come up with some kind of splint that will allow Pedroia to play, if he can’t he’s out four weeks.

  42. Cameron Says:

    Isn’t the torn muscle in his thumb?

    …Trying to imagine batting with a thumb splint. I can’t see it working. Unless it’s an angled splint, but I don’t think that’d help him recover at all.

  43. Chuck Says:

    I remember Don Mattingly having a similar injury, it was to his glove hand. The Yankee trainers made a splint that fit inside his glove, and when he hit he had a sponge with a hole cut in the middle that his thumb went through.

    Looked like a donut

  44. Raul Says:

    @43…those are the kinds of bits about the game that I love. I never knew that.

  45. Bob Says:

    Sit him.

  46. Chuck Says:

    To what Mike said about different forms of WAR.

  47. Chuck Says:

    I would too, Bob.

    A week off is better than a month or more.

  48. Cameron Says:

    Managed to get some of my jazz collection recovered today. Listening to some Wes Montgomery right now. I’m in a good mood.

  49. Raul Says:

    I never understood why a guy would have to go on the DL if he had some minor injury that would be fine in a week.

    Like if Jeter had a twisted ankle. Pretty sure the Yankees would just start Eduardo Nunez, put Jeter on the DL for 15 days, and then call up some stupid minor league reliever that might pitch 3 innings before being sent down again.

    Sometimes there’s no need to put a guy on the DL. Is there some rule that he needs to be placed there? Because I really don’t understand it.

  50. Bob Says:

    They should have a 7-day dl, just like the 15 and 60 day dl. Right now the 7-day one is just for concussions. Expand it to include any injury.

  51. Chuck Says:

    It would be abused

  52. Patrick Says:

    All of the different WAR values. Who is right?

    None of them. I think it’s impossible to quantify all of the factors that go into valuing a baseball player.

    Brett Lawrie(WAR 2.8)is a very good third basemen but he’s made errors on 5% of his chances. That coupled with 3 HR and a .701 OPS, he can’t possibly be more valuable than Adam Jones’(WAR 2.4) 16 HR, .317/.362/.624/.986. Jones would have to be routinely dropping flyballs to be worse than Lawrie.

    It’s examples like this that make the WAR designers repeatedly go back to the drawing board. It will never be right and people will never agree on it, but I guess it’s something to do.

  53. Bob Says:

    The Tigers called up Casey Crosby. He will make his debut Friday against the Yankees.

  54. Chuck Says:

    Yep…a lot of people have jobs because of WAR and stuff.

    Maybe they can outsource sabermetrics to China.

  55. Raul Says:


    The thing is, proponents of the WAR statistic will say it’s better than nothing. As if nothing is the alternative to the WAR statistic.

    A wagon with round wheels might be better for carrying a 5 pound stone than hauling it in your hand. But I’d rather haul the stone in my hand than haul it in a wagon with a square-shape wheel.

  56. Raul Says:

    The Colorado Rockies designated Jamie Moyer for assignment.

    25 years in the Major Leagues.

  57. John Says:

    “The thing is, proponents of the WAR statistic will say it’s better than nothing. As if nothing is the alternative to the WAR statistic.”

    It’s infinitely better than BA, runs, or RBI.

    Also, it quanitifies a players contributions into the only thing that matters: winning.

    Doesn’t mean it has to 100% exact or be gospel, because that’s impossible. The latest changes prove that it changes as more and more historical data is analyzed. The new defensive measurements, for instance, (while far from perfect), look situationally at every single play (dating back to 2003), rather than blindly translating chances, assists, putouts, and errors into a formula.

  58. John Says:

    “Brett Lawrie(WAR 2.8)is a very good third basemen but he’s made errors on 5% of his chances. That coupled with 3 HR and a .701 OPS, he can’t possibly be more valuable than Adam Jones’(WAR 2.4) 16 HR, .317/.362/.624/.986. Jones would have to be routinely dropping flyballs to be worse than Lawrie.”

    For the record, I agree. Lawrie’s WAR is 75% defense-based, and at his current career pace, he projects to about +7.5 dWAR for a full-season, which would be a lot like a guy having 50 home runs at this point in the season. Probably a bit exaggerated, I’ll give you that.


    Lawrie’s 3.41 range factor is out-of-this-world good. For the sake of comparison, Brokks Robinson’s career-best was 3.52 with a career average of 3.20. Mike Schmidt’s career-best was 3.48 with a career average of 3.15. These gentlemen are generally regarded as the #1 and #2 best defensive 3B of all-time.

  59. Raul Says:


  60. John Says:

    Geez, Raul. You realize those are STILL the only things you see on TV when a player comes up to bat, right?

  61. Raul Says:

    Then write your complaints to television.

  62. Cameron Says:

    So… Anyone think Ron Gardenhire isn’t gonna be the Twins manager for too much longer?

  63. Raul Says:

    Twins have had like 2 managers in 25 years or something.
    Besides, is it his fault Morneau got concussions and struggled? Or that Mauer got hurt? Or that their farm system sucks?

    He got beat twice by some powerful Yankees teams and in 2009, he would have beaten them had Alex Rodriguez not come through with some clutch hits.

    I have no problem with Gardenhire remaining the manager in Minnesota.

  64. Cameron Says:

    I don’t have a problem either. But you know how teams are, when teams start going bad, SOMEONE has to be the fall guy, and I think the Pohlad Brothers would be willing to make one of Ron if this shit kept happening.

  65. John Says:

    Fun fact: the Twins will retire Tom Kelly’s number this season.

    I had no idea he was as young as he is. He won his first title as Twins manager at the age of 37.

    I have his baseball card from that year: (‘88 topps). Probably came across it in 1997 or so, and I couldn’t help being shocked to find out that he was still the manager. He looked old in the card, and a guy who was managing 2 years before your birthday definitely feels ancient.

  66. Raul Says:

    Staggering to think the Twins have won 2, and Cleveland hasn’t won since before the Korean War or some shit.

  67. Raul Says:

    15-0 Seattle over the Rangers after just 3 innings.

  68. John Says:

    Especially considering how dominant those teams of the mid-late ’90’s were. Thome, Belle, Ramirez, Lofton, Justice, Alomar, Vizquel (not all overlapping, mind you). The Indians traded off Jeromy Burnitz, Brian Giles, and Richie Sexson – all future all-stars – cuz they literally had no place for them among all that awesomeness.

  69. John Says:

    “15-0 Seattle over the Rangers after just 3 innings.”

    That has to be some kind of typo. Surely it’s the other way around.

    Oops, it is a typo. Now 16-0 Seattle. WTF

  70. John Says:

    Montero has 3 hits including a home run.

    Yeah, opposite field.

  71. Cameron Says:

    You want something more baffling? Yu Darvish is leading the AL in wins while Cliff Lee is winless after seven starts.

    …If you’d have told me either of those things were gonna happen before the season started, I’d have laughed. Both at the same time? Laughter-induced coma.

  72. Raul Says:

    Surprised that Montero is out-hitting Justin Smoak. I thought Smoak would have figured things out by now.

  73. Raul Says:

    Cliff Lee has just been unlucky.

    That Phillies offense is sad.

  74. Raul Says:

    I hate the word “albatross”.

    Why? Because literally the only time it’s ever used is when someone’s using it as a metaphor when talking about bad athletes/poor contracts.

    Does anyone even know that an albatross is a bird?

  75. Raul Says:

    17-0, Seattle.


  76. Cameron Says:

    When I hear Albatross, I think of Monty Python.

  77. Cameron Says:

    10 of 17 RBIs are split between Dustin Ackley (3), Jesus Montero (4), and Justin Smoak (3)

    Good sign of things to come, perhaps?

  78. Raul Says:

    Most runs the Mariners scored in a game since the year 2000.

  79. Cameron Says:

    And Texas attempts a comeback with a seven-run inning.

  80. Raul Says:

    I figured Mark Trumbo would hit for power.
    I didn’t expect him to bat .338 forty two games into the season.

  81. Raul Says:


    Smoak went deep again.
    21-7 Seattle.

  82. Mike Felber Says:

    Good WAR link Chuck, thanks. Getting a ballpark & then more exacting measurement of contributions, while always debatable, makes great sense. None of it is gospel. But looking at context & all small details, weighing things properly, does give a much better idea about who did what how well than just having unadjusted, usually context dependent & isolated statistics.

  83. Patrick Says:

    Raul said; “The thing is, proponents of the WAR statistic will say it’s better than nothing. As if nothing is the alternative to the WAR statistic”.

    I agree that proponents will say that and that is exactly what bugs me. It’s not better than existing stats if it’s wrong and missleading.

    To say that it’s “better than nothing” would lead a WAR proponent to prefering Lawrie’s play over Adam Jones’ play so far this season. Anyone who does think Lawrie has contributed more to winning baseball games than Jones should not be allowed to evaluate players.

    Lawrie’s made a few wow plays, but calculating his range factor is very subjective. It’s even more subjective predicting how many runs he’s saved over the average major league 3B due to his range factor. Don’t forget, most of the other 3B are excellent in their own right.

    So far, WAR has been a detriment to properly rating players. That’s why it keeps changing in an effort to coincide with traditional observation. If they ever do get the formula close to reality, the ratings will look much like the rating lists of scouts like Chuck’s already do.

    WAR is quite the sisyphean effort, but I guess rolling the boulder up the hill time and again is something to do.

  84. Chuck Says:

    Brian Kenny hosts this sabermetric show on MLBNetwork. He was thrust into the role and while he doesn’t actually know anything about the stats and it shows when he talks, the fact he’s talking with other stat people, it doesn’t come across.

    Lately, he’s been getting some anchor time on the highlight desk, and he really sounds like an idiot.

    The other night, Harold Reynolds and Dan Plesac were breaking down something, and Kenny tried to interject some saber stuff, and they both ignored him.

    So, he tried again, and Reynolds turned to him and said, “just stop talking, Brian.”

    Last night, same thing, with Plesac and Al Leiter, and Kenny said asked if he could say something, and Leiter turned and said, “no”.

    I like Brian Kenny, he was pretty good with his boxing stuff on ESPN, but he’s clearly out of his element at MLBNetwork, and it’s really uncomfortable to watch.

    Leave the sabermetric crap for your own show, it’s personal choice whether I watch or not, but when I turn on a highlight show that’s what I expect, with experts breaking down things, not some fish out of water guy getting embarrassed on the air.

    It was funny the first couple of times, now it’s getting annoying.

  85. Cameron Says:

    Kinda glad I don’t have MLBNetwork right now. I love the highlight desk. Harold, Al, Dan, Mitch, they’re all very good. To think that they put Brian Kenny in there…

  86. Chuck Says:

    It’s like Erin Andrews on the sideline at an NFL game..she’s retarded and adds nothing to the broadcast.

    Seriously, would any diehard football fan turn on a game and watch just because she was the sideline reporter?

    Shut the hell up and let the experts do their jobs.

    Best way to prove you don’t know anything about sabermetrics or food or how to cook a steak is to open your mouth.

  87. Cameron Says:

    Erin Andrews is there for the guys who are already trashed by halftime and scream “TAKE YOUR TOP OFF!” at the screen.

    …I have no idea what Kenny contributes. Why not Bill James? The guy actually has broadcast experience talking stats. Sure, it was radio, but it’s experience.

  88. Chuck Says:

    Bill James has a job.

    Which, thankfully, doesn’t require him to be on camera.

  89. Bob Says:

    Erin Andrews does add a pretty face to the telecast. Technically, the same concept as a cheerleader. Without the bias.

  90. Bob Says:

    Yup. Theo, and Jed however did not recruit him to the Windy City.

  91. Raul Says:

    I think the Erin Andrews thing can sometimes turn into a blast against women.
    I actually think Erin Andrews works hard and does know a good amount of football.

    But I just don’t think it’s necessary to have any sideline reporters – male or female – reporting during the game.

    All they’re going to tell you are injury reports, and I see no reason why the men or women in the broadcast booth can’t do that.

  92. Chuck Says:

    It’s demeaning as hell is what it is.

    But it’s her choice.

    She has no talent, she should be doing traffic reports in Rockwell.

    And not for nothing, but I never thought she was all that hot to begin with.

  93. Raul Says:

    Jake Peavy is 31 years old today.
    Kenny Lofton is 45.

  94. Lefty33 Says:

    “That Phillies offense is sad.”

    Yeah the offense this year is really “sad”.

    Let’s see, the team has pulled themselves out of a dumpster fire of an offensive start to now be 4th in the NL in runs scored, 2nd in hits, 5th in 2B, 5th in RBI, and 3rd in average.

    Yes they have some issues in the power department but even still considering that they’re two best (power) hitters have yet to play one inning this year they are in the top half of the NL in HR, SLG, and most other meaningful stats.

    The NL East sucks with mediocrity this year but the Phillies are the best hitting team in the division except for the Mets and that’s why they are only three out yet they have had a double digit number of guys on the DL almost since opening day.

    “Cliff Lee has just been unlucky.”

    The guy has made eight starts this year and he’s given up at least three earned runs in four of them.

    He’s either Cy Young material or he’s Kyle Kendrick every time out.

    The guys ERA in May is almost four and it’s been almost five over his last three starts. He’s been allowing more flyballs then groundballs and that usually equals a less than desirable outcome for him.

    He’s been far from the lights out/lockdown starter that everybody thought he would be.

  95. Raul Says:

    A bit sensitive, I think.

  96. Lefty33 Says:

    No, just a low tolerance for bullshit today.

  97. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, you’re a UConn guy, right? How do you think Andre Drummond will fare in the NBA? I don’t exactly know, but I could gather this info on him.

    -Has NBA size right now, could get even bigger (6′11″ and 275 at 18, damn)
    -Great rebounder and shot blocker
    -”Has no motor”
    -Struggles offensively
    -Not a good team player (Not necessarily a locker room can’t play, just bad team play fundamentals)
    -Saying his shoots FTs like Shaq would be a compliment to him

    …Why does the name “Kwame Brown” come to mind?

  98. Chuck Says:

    If I read the comment without the name “Andre Drummond”, I could have sworn you were talking about Andrew Bynum, who, by the way, had signed a letter of intent to UCONN.

    If by “has no motor” you mean heart, then I disagree, if you mean between his ears, then I agree wholeheartedly.

    I heard from a good friend who lives near me and who’s a UCONN guy too and he said Drummond is a “walking NCAA violation”, that he’s not too bright and “couldn’t pass the entrance exam with an open book.”

    I don’t know, Cam, to be honest. Like the old saying goes “you can’t teach height”.

    The guy definitely has the talent and it’s going to take a good situation with a patient coach.

    It took awhile but it worked for Bynum, so why not?

  99. Cameron Says:

    True. Bynum gets by pretty much on his physical skills, but he’s really come into his own recently. I guess he could work out well. On the other hand, I see a shitload of red flags in his scouting reports. All the upsides are on his physical abilities, actual skill is practically a non-factor other than a surprising passing ability for a center.

    He’s top-3 in raw talent, but the mock drafts I’ve seen have him about mid-late lottery because of these red flags. We’ll see. I’m not getting my hopes up on Drummond right away. But if used right (limited minutes, limit his offense strictly to the low post, and put him under a more experienced center), he could work out well.

    …And if the mock draft of him going to New Orleans is right, he’d be working under Emeka Okafor in a low-pressure environment on a non-playoff team with a decent coach, so that looks good. If New Orleans does manage to have him fall to #10, that gives them Anthony Davis and Andre Drummond as their future 4-5. That has Johnson-Mourning potential for that team.

  100. Chuck Says:

    I don’t think Drummond is that big, he looked more 240-250.

    If he fills out that may take away some of his lane mobility.

  101. Cameron Says:

    I think he could be that listed 275. Guy’s got, like, no body fat on him. That size of his looks to be all muscle, and I can buy a dude who’s 7 feet and all muscle weighing that much. He ain’t Shaq big, but the dude ain’t LeBron’s weight.

  102. Chuck Says:

    Oh, what a shock..some NBA execs are pissed at last night’s lottery results and think it was rigged.

    Where have I heard that before…Patrick Ewing…Larry Bird…and on and on.

    David Stern makes John Gotti look like the Pope.

  103. Bob Says:

    Chuck, do you prefer hockey to basketball, or the other way around?

  104. Cameron Says:

    I don’t think this one was rigged, to be honest. Is it a little coincidental that the team who lost the best point guard in the league and just got a new owner got the #1 pick? Maybe.

    On the other hand, IT’S THE FUCKING HORNETS! If Stern wanted to rig the draft, that pick would’ve gone to a team that people gave a shit about. Like Ewing to the Knicks or Bird to the Celtics. This is the goddamn Hornets. I’m calling execs just pissed that they lost.

  105. Bob Says:

    Bird was drafted early. A Red Auerbach coup. I actually know like 2 facts about the sport. And that is one of them

  106. Chuck Says:

    I have a feeling we’re seeing the end of the UCONN dynasty or legacy or whatever term you want to use.

    Big East and NCAA Tournament bans next year.

    Two year reduction in scholarships.

    At least half this year’s roster leaving, either by the NBA or transfer.

    Calhoun likely leaving as well.

    It’s not going to be pretty for awhile.

  107. Chuck Says:

    Who owns the Hornets, Cameron?

    Hockey over basketball, Bob.

  108. Cameron Says:

    The league sold the Hornets to Tom Benson a while back, Chuck. He’s the guy who owns the New Orleans Saints.

  109. Raul Says:

    As long as Geno Auriemma is at UCONN, there will be solid basketball talent at the university. Maybe not the gender people expect…

  110. Patrick Says:

    Yeah, I’ve seen Brian Kenny do his sabr bit. He’s a good guy and all but I yell at the TV a lot when he speaks.

  111. Bob Says:

    1.W1ll Middlebrooks practiced at SS today.

    2.Have a good night.

  112. Cameron Says:

    If Darvish wasn’t pitching like he is, would Middlebrooks just run away with the Rookie of the Year?

  113. Raul Says:

    2012 Mat Latos:

    Home: 37.1 Innings, 34 Hits, 17 ER, 6.3 K/9, 4.10 ERA
    Away: 21.2 Innings, 23 Hits, 13 ER, 10.4 K/9, 5.40 ERA

    He’s allowed 11 home runs. He allowed 16 last year.

  114. Raul Says:

    Middlebrooks has 24 games under his belt.
    Great month. But he isn’t running away with anything.

    And neither is Darvish.

  115. Chuck Says:

    109..Who gives a shit about the women’s program?

  116. Chuck Says:

    AL ROY

    Three words.

    Bryce Harper’s nightmare.

  117. Cameron Says:


    Welcome to Cincy, Matt. Enjoy the Great American Launching Pad.

  118. Bob Says:

    AKA, what I fish for with a Mepps.

  119. Chuck Says:

    Sorry, Raul, I re-read your comment.

    I get it now.

    sorry, bro..early onset Alzheimers.

    I wonder how many times he’s walked into the locker room fifteen minutes after a game to tell a player she “has a phone call in my office”

    The guy’s a legalized peeping tom.

  120. Chuck Says: know I love ya, man, and I really respect your music knowledge, but when it comes to business, you got no fucking clue.

    Stern owes Jordan from his “suspension” in ‘94…how many people do you think bought tickets to see Charlotte with just the hope they’d catch Mike at the concession stand or taking a leak?

    The fact HE WAS IN THE BUILDING accounted for 10% of their total ticket sales.

    Now that he’s not around anymore, see you later a couple million in revenue.

    How to get that back quickly, and without fanfare?

    The number one pick.

    C’mon dude.

  121. Chuck Says:

    “Stern owes Jordan from his “suspension” in ‘94″

    How do you think he got to own a team in the first place?

    If it came out tomorrow Jordan and Stern have been gay lovers for the last 25 years, I wouldn’t bat an eye.

  122. Cameron Says:

    At the same time though, what reason does Stern have for rigging the draft just to screw Charlotte? Why not get it REALLY down into the lottery to fuck with them then? it’s a reasonable enough bounce. Hell, it’s the same bounce Cleveland got last year. Maybe it’s just because I’m not as cynical as you, but this seems to fall within “benefit of the doubt” territory if you ask me.

    …And thanks for the music compliment. Means a lot, man.

  123. Cameron Says:

    Last game in the Western Finals, OKC fouled the ever loving shit out of Thiago Splitter (including a 5 in 59 second stretch) and got 50% shooting from the line out of him. So what was Splitter doing during shootaround today? Free throws, free throws, and free throws. Sank a fuckload of ‘em too.

    People wonder why I like the Spurs sometimes. This is why. They play like a basketball team SHOULD play.

  124. John Says:

    So, watching the Red Sox-Tigers on MLB Network.

    Miguel Cabrera stole a base (and took 3rd on a horrible throwing error by Salty).

    Then Prince Fielder hit a triple.

    Totally in the blueprint.

  125. Cameron Says:

    …I normally don’t stoop to this joke on this board, I’m sorry. I can’t help it.

  126. Chuck Says:

    “Thiago Splitter”

    One of Yu Darvish’s pitches?

  127. John Says:

    I’m reading the basketball thread…Chuck, you know that Michael Jordan owns the Charlotte Bobcats, right? And that the Hornets moved from Charlotte like 10 years ago?

    Cuz if so, I don’t follow the argument.

  128. Hossrex Says:

    *Ctrl-V: Everything I’ve ever said about Matt Kemp*

    This is the shit I was talking about. I don’t CARE how many home runs he hits when the team is in the cellar. Why the fuck should I? I’m a Dodgers fan, not a fucking fantasy baseball manager.

    Anyone watch him jumping around like a moron during his entire 15 game DL stint?

    If you didn’t, you aren’t allowed to have an opinion.

  129. John Says:

    Kemp was basically bitch-slapping the league while the Dodgers were in first.

    His April was historically great, and it propelled his team into first. Now he’s hurt. Why do you hate this guy so much?

  130. Chuck Says:

    I thought Charlotte was the Hornets?

    Goes to show how much I follow the NBA.


  131. Cameron Says:

    To be fair Chuck, both the current and former Charlotte teams have sucked for the better part of that past decade. Can’t blame ya.

  132. Hossrex Says:

    John: “Why do you hate this guy so much?”

    Because when the game comes easy to him, he’s the best in the game, and when he suffers the slightest adversity, he falls apart and cries in the clubhouse?

    Did you miss the part where I said: “Anyone watch him jumping around like a moron during his entire 15 game DL stint?”

    He wasn’t taking his rehab seriously. It was obvious to anyone who was watching the games (guess what, it wasn’t in the box score). He comes back after thinking he had a 15 game summer vacation, but since he wasn’t taking it seriously, he immediately goes back on the DL. For a fucking month.

    Watch the games, or shut the fuck up.

  133. John Says:

    So, you were watching the games…that Matt Kemp wasn’t playing in? And that gave you inside access to his injury?

  134. Raul Says:

    Charlotte drafted Kobe Bryant, then traded him to Los Angeles for Vlade Divac.

    I thought Kobe was traded for Eddie Jones. Did you people forget about Eddie Jones? He was a good player. Was he a superstar? No. Wanna know how much Eddie Jones earned in contracts in the NBA? 101 million dollars.

  135. Cameron Says:

    Hoss, I’d call you out for trashing Kemp despite him being demonstrably awesome… But I’m the world’s biggest Zack Greinke hater, so I’m just gonna shut up.

  136. Cameron Says:

    You know, I kinda feel bad for Vlade Divac. The dude was really good for a long time, but he’s probably gonna be most remembered for being the bridge between Kareem and Shaq.

  137. Raul Says:

    I love Vlade Dodi.

    Good player. You ever see the documentary he did for ESPN? Really good.

  138. Cameron Says:

    No, but I’ll check it out if I can. I’d have to track it down online or something, but ESPN does decent docs, so it’ll probably be worth checking out.

  139. Raul Says:

    “Vlade Divac: Once Brothers”

    Talks about him and Drazen Petrovic.

  140. Mike Felber Says:

    Patrick, the Saber stat adjustments are not done to get closer to traditional stats-& they may or may not do that. There are a bunch of different elaborate calculations, & folks advocate for versions while trying to approximate the truth of difficult to figure factors like defense & isolating performance from contextual factors. They are not similar to using, say, the usual BA/HR/RBI splits to assess quality, even before you factor in things like defense & base running.

    I have no reason to assume a fix with the B-Ball lottery. I think it is unlikely. yet the officiating has been so suspiciously compromised in enough playoff years, in ways that favor the big markets & best match ups, that i could not blame anyone for wondering if there was more than significant subconscious bias.

    I recall a men’s magazine query of who would win: best guys ever up to 6′ 4″, or those at least 7′.

    To me there is no question. Even if you disqualified the guys who may not be an actual 7′-Duncan is not, Hakeem I am not sure of: the big guys would win at least 2/3rd of games.

    Shaq. Jabberwocky. Wilt. Robinson. Then you have a host of very good not quite great guys like Vlade, Parish, the Serb, Sampson, of course Ming…

    Any speed & 3 point advantage would be smothered by defense & especially rebounds.

    LeBron has been around 265 for years now. Who know if Drummond is an actual 275. Though he is likely at least close, & 3″ taller.

  141. Cameron Says:

    Actually, looking at Drummond more closely… I hate to say it, but physically, he looks like someone just took Tim Duncan and made him a few shades blacker. And Duncan’s listed at 255.

    I can see that for Andre then.

  142. Mike Felber Says:

    That seems reasonable.

  143. Cameron Says:

    You know, sometimes I think my life is pretty good and that I’m in a good mood.

    Then I get brought down by the most random shit. This time, it was Wikipedia’s Article of the Day. It’s about Australian actor Steve Dodd. He was an actor in The Coca-Cola kid, a movie starring Eric Roberts and directed by Dusan Makavejev.

    …I have seen no less than two Dusan Makavejev movies. WR: Mysteris of the Organism and Sweet Movie. High holy fuckballs… Those movies aren’t bad, they are offensive. Seventies arthouse eurotrash at its fucking worst.

  144. Raul Says:

    June 1st.

    The only team in 1st place right now, that was also in 1st place on this date in 2011 is Texas.

    Every other division has a new leader.

  145. Cameron Says:

    Surprising turnaround there, but it makes for interesting baseball to say the least.

  146. Mike Felber Says:

    Why let those things bother you Cam? It is all academic. We are lucky enough to be at the rare point in human history where we are not starving, dying if diseases, being tortured or oppressed by whoever is in power, usually get to live to old age…

    The healthier mind the less it/we find things to get upset about. And anger-well, not always some forms of righteous anger-is addictive & overwhelmingly a protective reaction against feeling fear & impotent. The more inner peace, the less need to project Fear & Loathing on things, circumstances, & especially people.

    Ah, but us old folks love to preach!

  147. Chuck Says:

    Who is Steve Dodd…and why would anything related to him ruin your day?

  148. Bob Says:

    Chuck, or anyone who follows college baseball, what are your thoughts on Marcus Stroman from Duke. He is one of 2 wildcards in the draft. ( Lucas Giolito being the other) Is he too small to be a first round pick?

  149. Chuck Says:

    Giolito’s not a wildcard, he needs Tommy John. If a team drafts him they might think he’s worth rolling the dice on. But remember Andrew Brackman, the Yanks drafted him knowing he needed TJ and he sucks.

    Why would Stroman’s height make him a wildcard?

    The guy throws 95 with a pretty good breaking ball.

    His lack of a changeup is going to make him a closer, not his height.

    If he ends up in the right situation, he could pitch in the majors this year.

  150. Bob Says:


  151. Raul Says:

    I think some physics guy said that height doesn’t make a tremendous amount of difference in velocity. Maybe 2-3 mph.

    Frankly, I think top velocity is overrated. But there is a notable difference between hitting a 92 mph fastball and a 95 mph fastball.

  152. Chuck Says:

    I can think of one pitcher 6′7″ or taller who had a long career and who had no real injury concerns…Randy Johnson

    JR Richard and John Candelaria come to mind as pitchers that tall who were all stars and who didn’t pitch as long for one reason or another.

    There are a few pitchers under 5′11″ in the HOF.

    Do you think Dellin Betances’ command would be better if he was 6′2″?

  153. Raul Says:

    “Do you think Dellin Betances’ command would be better if he was 6′2″?”

    I don’t think so. But I don’t have any real understanding or reasoning as to why I feel that way. They say that tall people struggle with mechanics. I dunno. Sometimes I think of it like shooting a gun and a rifle. The rifle will get you more accurate shots and I imagine the length of it has something to do with it. Betances is releasing the ball at a distance to the plate that is shorter than just about every pitcher there is. You would think that he’d have less margin to miss the strikezone, no? Well, assuming he could repeat his delivery, that is.

    Pretty sure I’m completely wrong on that, but I dunno.

  154. Mike Felber Says:

    more things to go wrong in a long delivery. The differences in how close you are to the plate cannot be more than a tiny % of 60′ 6″ anyway.

    If there is a difference in velocity due to height, it has to be “all other things being equal”. Otherwise the taller guys would all throw harder, & b-ball centers would be throwing over 110 MPH. Randy Johnson used to say how Wagner threw harder than him. And I recall one year that Wagner had the plurality of the TOTAL pitches over 100 MPH. Wagner is not seen as a legitimate 5′ 11″.

    The legend Steve Dalkowski possibly threw harder than anyone ever. He was maybe 5′ 11″, at best, with an unremarkable squat build & relatively short arms. height & leverage is one central factor that allows some to throw hard, like my long armed avatar. But some average height guys-short for a pitcher-have just freakish ability to accelerate their arm/a ball.

    Amongst the many examples are Smoky Joe Wood to Pedro.

  155. Chuck Says:

    IMO, Betances gets too fast in his delivery and it throws everything out of whack, including his release point.

    I’d make him throw everything from the stretch.

    If he was six inches shorter, I don’t think it would be so much of a problem.

  156. Chuck Says:

    The issue with taller pitchers is in their stride..if it’s too long they can actually land on flat ground instead of the downslope of the mound.

    You know what happens when an outfielder runs on his heels?

    Same’s a jarring landing and can have an effect on the entire release, not just release point.

  157. Bob Says:

    Edgar Mercedes, the Dominican trainer for Yoenis Cespedis was arrested jor human trafficking.

  158. Raul Says:

    He was arrested for bringing Cuban baseball players into the Dominican Republic.

    But ‘human trafficking’ sounds really bad so let’s use that.

    Wondering why I haven’t been seeing any stories about red necks in the south transporting 13 year old girls between states for sex parties. Maybe they aren’t brown enough for the news.

  159. Bob Says:

    Raul, it was baseball related. Chris Hansen had a DateLine devoted to internet pedophiles. Most of whom were honkies.
    Further note I just said he was arrested. Made no assumption on his guilt or innocence.

  160. Raul Says:

    You’re right. It was baseball related.

    I wonder if Justin Verlander’s agent was arrested for spousal abuse, would that be in the news? No. Probably not.

  161. Bob Says:

    Bet you it would. If Scott Boras or any agent got nailed for spousal abuse, it would be in the news. What are you smoking?
    They might not get convicted, but it would be a newsworthy event.

  162. Chuck Says:

    So, a Cuban trainer gets busted for “exporting” a 16 year old baseball player, but the country’s economy is based on 10 year olds cutting sugar cane, and that’s OK?

    Sounds like Castro’s pissed because he wasn’t getting a cut of the transactions.

  163. Chuck Says:

    “He was arrested for bringing Cuban baseball players into the Dominican Republic”

    Who really gives a shit, anyway?

    If he violated some Dominican law, his problem, not ours.

    And before rushing to judgement, take a look at the list of every player suspended for steriods.

    And there was a trainer arrested for abusing players not long ago,BTW.

  164. Raul Says:

    I suppose I overreacted.

    Going back to our predictions, Albert Pujols now has 8 HR, while Edwin Encarnacion has 17.

    The All-Star break begins Monday, July 9th, with the game on July 10th.

    Pujols has 34 games to catch him.

  165. Cameron Says:

    @159 He had a Dateline special. …Then another… Then it turned into a feature segment… Then it stole Dateline’s airtime completely for a couple years.

    Then damn near everybody on that show got off on charges of entrapment since they were falsely imprisoned by people who were not officers of the law and the show just sorta went byebye.

  166. Raul Says:

    Sports Illustrated surveyed 293 MLB players to find out who is the most underrated pitcher.

    The top answer: Matt Cain.

    1. Matt Cain
    2. Doug Fister
    3. Ricky Romero
    4. Dan Haren
    5. Vance Worley
    6. Jordan Zimmerman
    7. Edwin Jackson
    8. Jamie Moyer
    9. Ian Kennedy
    10. Felix Hernandez

    Zimmerman belongs higher on the list, and I’m surprised RA Dickey didn’t make the cut.

  167. Bob Says:

    Brandon Morrow. I chuckled at Jamie Moyer. I suppose Moyer is off the list. Is ir Morrow or R.A. Dickey for the 10th spot?

  168. Raul Says:

    Morrow has been a high k/9 guy but always struggled with control. Seemed like almost all his games, he’d be 90 pitches in by the 5th inning.

    Looks like he’s in the zone more and he’s looking dominant.

  169. Cameron Says:

    When Morrow’s in his zone, he’s dangerous. When he’s not, he’s Phil Hughes.

  170. Chuck Says:

    Manny Ramirez was supposed to be called up to Oakland this weekend, but instead will remain in AAA.

    He’s currently 8-36 with no extra base hits, until he starts showing some power he’s staying where he is

  171. Raul Says:

    Meanwhile, Michael Taylor remains in AAA while the Athletics play Seth Smith.
    Taylor is 26 and is off to a good start. Seriously, what’s the hold up? That he’s a RFer and Smith plays LF?

    And Grant Green isn’t tearing the cover off the ball, but he’s better than Cliff Pennington.

  172. Chuck Says:

    Green is Sacramento’s starting CF.

  173. Chuck Says:

    The guys who run Oakland’s front office are without question the biggest collection of retards.

    There so worried about somebody like Taylor beating them out of a half million dollars FOUR years from now in arbitration that they’d rather pay Seth Smith.

  174. Bob Says:

    1. Michael Bowden and Jeff Suppan were both designated for assignment today.

    2. TGIF!!!

  175. Cameron Says:

    Jeff Suppan was designated for assignment. I’ve seen that more times in the last five years than anyone should ever see.

    …And one of those was from KC. If you suck to much to pitch in Omaha, your ass needs to be banned from the MLB.

  176. Raul Says:

    Suppan has pitched 17 seasons in the Majors.
    He has a career 4.70 ERA, 2,542 Innings Pitched and a record of 140-146.

  177. Cameron Says:

    2,500 innings in 17 years? For a starter, that’s really… Really bad.

  178. Cameron Says:

    Actually, that’s about 150 IP a year. My bad, misstroked on the calculator. Not bad.

    Actually, considering he missed 2011, that average looks better… But how does a pitcher THAT BAD pitch THAT LONG!?

  179. Mike Felber Says:

    Well, he was pretty good from ‘99-’07. It is after then, when the steroid era was over & he started to get older, when he has been bad like at the start of his career. But you do not take into account era & park-even WITH all those sub par years, his ERA + is still 97.

    He was a quality option for 9 years, at IP too. The question is why after a few years when he has shown little for several years, do teams still take a ride with him-likely because folks like the devil they know rather than fear of most raw prospects (the unknown).

  180. Cameron Says:

    Suppan ‘99-’07

    4.44 ERA
    1835 IP
    105 ERA+
    1012 K (5 K/9)
    604 BB (3 BB/9)
    9.7 H/9

    …No, he was still pretty bad then too.

  181. John Says:

    105 ERA+…or what Jack Morris did.

  182. Cameron Says:

    If Jack Morris pitched for anyone but the Tigers in the 80s, his record would look a lot less like his and a lot more like Jeff Suppan’s.

  183. John Says:


    Soup was averagish was a while, and then the Brewers made him the richest player in team history. Sigh.

  184. Raul Says:

    Jack Morris through the same age years:

    3.51 ERA
    2236 IP
    116 ERA+
    1,459 strikeouts
    775 walks
    8.0 H/9

    And included 3 Top 5 finishes in the Cy Young voting.

    So no, Jeff Suppan wasn’t any fucking thing like Jack Morris…at all.
    Even though you want to compare OPS+, which has enough problems with it to last another 60 comments.

  185. Raul Says:

    Johan Santana on the verge of pitching the Mets’ 1st No Hitter.

  186. Raul Says:

    Santana through 8.

  187. Raul Says:

    1 pitch
    1 out

  188. Raul Says:

    2 outs!!!!!

  189. Cameron Says:

    2 down, it’s all down to David Freese.

  190. Cameron Says:


  191. Raul Says:



  192. Raul Says:

    First time the Cardinals have been no-hit in 22 years.

  193. Raul Says:

    Finally Johan Santana is a real Yankee..err….Met.

  194. Cameron Says:

    This is the team that won a World Series with Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan and another behind Doc Gooden and couldn’t pull off a no-hitter.

    …Is Johan Santana that good or do the Mets just suck that much?

  195. Raul Says:

    It’s not easy to throw a No Hitter, Cam.

    Not throwing one doesn’t mean you suck — by any stretch.

  196. Cameron Says:

    True… On the other hand, it is the Mets. =P

  197. Raul Says:

    What the fk is this?

  198. Mike Felber Says:

    ERA + is generally pretty good, & almost always better than straight ERA. Suppan through those 9 years had the same ERA + that Morris had lifetime. Suppan was just decent then, slightly better than average.

    Morris was better during those same years, but not dramatically so. Let’s look at the major issue with ERA +: which teams might have had defenses that inflated it? Morris with the famou infield or Suppan as a relative journeyman?

    Why even list the raw stats of both when only one guy was playing through the steroid era? Put Jack’s same age years ‘99-’07, his raw #s will rise significantly.

  199. Raul Says:

    Defense only scratches the surface of the problems with adjusted OPS.

  200. John Says:

    Batting average equates a home run to a single and doesn’t even acknowledge as much as 1/3 of succesful plate appearances.

    OPS+ has park factors that might be a tad bit off.

  201. Raul Says:

    Good point.

    I don’t know what the hell I was thinking in comparing Jeff Suppan’s and Jack Morris’ batting averages….

    Oh wait, I didn’t.

    I think the strawman is starting to fray a bit…

  202. Mike Felber Says:

    john was just showing how ERA + has a much lower margin for error when approximating total performance of an individual than (I think he would agree) the vast majority of stats that have been used to judge performance.

    Are you staying active Raul? Ultimately what matters is general health, & hopefully you can beat the odds & be one of the tiny % of folks who get big early & then keep weight off. My brother got to around 260 after losing 50 lbs. earlier, (surprise, when giving up smoking) then lost weight again. While not lean, has stayed not too many lbs. overweight for years, swimming helps.

    Though I do think he tends to hit the Maker’s Mark too hard.

  203. Raul Says:

    Haven’t been lifting but doing cardio a few times a week.
    I met some new friends that are mild health freaks so it helps to be around positive people.

  204. Mike Felber Says:

    That is good! Whether lifting or cardio, that is healthy. A friend sends me all kinds of studies about how merely sitting many hours a day you increase your health risks greatly. But studies show we tend to follow along with the fitness or fatness of friends.

  205. Cameron Says:

    I have officially blown my own goddamn mind. Was screwing around with my copy of NBA 2K12 like I do. Seeing what impossible task can I accomplish today. Well, in the span of two seasons, I’ve turned the Washington Wizards into the powerhouse of the NBA. First in the East with a 41-14 record by the trade deadline. …I honestly don’t know how I did it, either. By player ratings, the team is below average in every category imaginable. Offense, defense, rebounding, we’re… Meh.

    I think the way I did it was scrapping the playbook and running a 1-4-5 based triangle offense. My center (Andre Bogut) is the assist leader for centers and my 1-4 (John Wall and Andrea Bargnani) are combining for about 47 points a game. Every single fucking play in my book runs through that triangle. It may leave to the 2 or 3 occasionally, but I just abuse the triangle for offense as much as I can. …And surprisingly, that offense spilled over into how the defense runs, as we’re heavy on blocks and steals.

    …I didn’t realize that the right system could change things THAT much. A good system can make shit players look awesome. Now I understand just how much Carmelo Anthony REALLY hurt the team under D’Antoni.

    I learn lessons from the weirdest places. But a good playbook can make just about anyone look good, I guess.

  206. Cameron Says:

    My offense made Andrea Bargnani an All-Star… ANDREA FUCKING BARGNANI!

  207. Mike Felber Says:

    Though good systems can make at least pro quality ordinary players look much better sometimes, do you really think in real life it will get you the championship? It helps, but the Chicago Bulls were heavily talented already. I would be surprised if the simulation does not exxagerate the real efficiencies of a good system.

  208. Raul Says:

    From article….

    According to the Providence Journal, Schilling sunk $50 million of his personal fortune into the company, which was named 38 Studios after his jersey number. Those funds compliment a generous $75 million in taxpayer-backed bonds promised to the company by Rhode Island’s former governor, Republican Donald Carcieri, in 2011.

    “If 38 Studios fails, Rhode Island taxpayers will be liable to repay more than $100 million,” the Providence Journal reported. It appears that residents might soon bear that burden.

    On May 24, 38 Studios laid off all of its 400 employees and cancelled their health insurance, according to CNN Money. The Boston Globe reports that the employees have filed a complaint with the Rhode Island Department of Labor and Training, seeking renumeration for unpaid wages. Workers told the Globe that 38 Studios stopped issuing paychecks after April 30.

    In an interview with the Providence Journal, Schilling leveled criticism at the state of Rhode Island and its governor, Lincoln Chafee, for “breaking promises to help the company remain viable.” Schilling said that he would be “financially devastated” if the company fails.

  209. Raul Says:

    According to, Schilling earned roughly 114 million dollars in MLB salary throughout his career.

    Deduct taxes and agents fees, it’s quite possible Schilling put nearly everything he had into this company.

  210. Cameron Says:

    @207 I know. The only star-level player in the front 5 is John Wall. The key from the games just ended up being the interplay between everyone. Wall is a great passer, Bogut is a HUGE anchor in the post, and Bargnani is amazing on the wing. I think Bargnani is actually the big reason it ended up working so well, because a lot of PFs do not play the wing well, whereas that’s where Bargnani thrives. It ends up forcing the 3 to cover Bargnani, and it ends up being (on average) about a six or seven inch size difference on defense.

    Comes down to the mismatches the system creates, really. That and my defense combining to force 13.9 TPG.

  211. Cameron Says:

    …Greatest DUI arrest EVER!

  212. Jim Says:

    @211 That’s one ugly dude.

  213. Cameron Says:

    Fuck the ugly hippie, dude had a zebra riding shotgun!

  214. Bob Says:

    Congrats to Johan Santana.

  215. Bob Says:

    @ 184. Thank you

  216. Patrick Says:

    Hi Mike, I’m aware of what WAR attempts to do, and that’s fine with me as long as people don’t quote it like it’s the Gospel. You have a respected baseball guy like Al Lieter saying Adam Jones is on the short list for 1st half MVP and Brian Kenny says “well Al, perhaps you didn’t know that Brett Lawrie has a higher WAR?”. Anyway, I’ll try not to continue beating the dead horse….

    In other SABR news, SABR genius Billy Beane has now lost 9 straight, 11 more and they can make another fckn’ movie about him! That’s the one I’d like to watch.

    Also, I wonder why Beane thinks old man Manny can hit the ball without the clear and the cream?

  217. Raul Says:

    Beane has talent in the Minors, but he’s starting (and I’m going by ESPN’s Depth Chart):

    Seth Smith (.224)
    Coco Crisp (.173)
    Brandon Inge (.197)
    Cliff Pennington (.178)
    Daric Barton (.198)

  218. Raul Says:

    Also of note, Baltimore has lost 6 straight to fall out of 1st place in the AL East.

  219. Raul Says:

    The two eastern divisions seem the most competitive, with 2.5 games separating last place Philadelphia from division-leading Washington. And 3 games separating last place Boston from division-leading Tampa.

  220. Chuck Says:

    What I missed in the last 18 hours.

    Being compared to Jack Morris doesn’t shine a brighter light on Jeff Suppan, it turns Morris’ light off.

    I tease my wife all the time about her mid-80’s choices in music, and realize not only was the decade the worst in music, but the worst in baseball as well. An ill-fated attempt to lay carpet in most ML parks put an emphasis on speed guys who couldn’t do anything else.

    Dominating a bad era doesn’t make you a Hall of Famer, it makes you fortunate.

    MLBNetwork cut in the Yankee game to show the last two innings of Santana’s no-hitter.

    The hardest pitch he threw was 85..he looked like Jamie Moyer. He also looked like he was in pain. He was throwing marshmallows up there, the Cardinals’ hitters couldn’t time anything. 8,019 games and 50 years is a long time.

    Congrats to him, but I’m concerned this may have some long term effects.

    Umps also blew an obvious call on a ball hit by Carlos Beltran that clearly hit the foul line and should have been a double.

    I was reading through a comment thread on another site yesterday and two guys were arguing about the prospect status of some AA pitcher…one guy was using FIP as his basis point.

    FIP. For a fucking Double A pitcher.

    This is going too far. If a financially handicapped GM like Billy Beane uses FIP as a point of reference (along with 900 other points) in deciding which free agent pitcher to sign, fine, in his situation FIP means more than it would to Brian Cashman because the need for information is buried under his wad of cash.

    Brian Kenny doesn’t know jack about sabermetrics, he’s obviously reading someone else’s research off the teleprompter on his show. The writers make him sound like he knows what he’s talking about. So, when he gets on the anchor desk and says stupid shit like his Brett Lawrie comment, and he’s actually degrading sabermetrics, not promoting them.

    Companies go out of business every day, we’re in a down economy and there are now 400 more people unemployed, the fact a former ML player owned the company is irrelevant.

  221. Raul Says:

    John comparing Morris to Suppan to turn Morris’ light of is exactly what John was going for.

  222. Chuck Says:

    There were guys who pitched in the steriod era who put up better numbers than Morris did in a punch and judy era.

  223. Len Says:

    Leave it to the Mets to get their first no-hitter on a blown foul ball call.

    I always thought No-hitters are kind of overrated. A pitcher can give up a bunch of walks and get lucky and not give up a hit. Meanwhile another pitcher might have something like 15 k’s and 0 walks and 1 hit and nobody remembers the game. Johan had a great game but he gave up 5 base on balls and only had 8 K’s. He had a blown foul ball call, a missed hit batsmen and needed his left fielder to crash into the wall to save the no-hitter. Capuano had a 2 hit game with 13k’s and zero walks last year that was a better pitched game than Johan’s no-hitter.

    I remember Mussina had about 6 great 1-3 hit games around 2001-2002. He had a 13 K, zero walk, one hit game against the Red Sox in 2001 and a 13 k, zero walk 3 hit game against the Orioles about 3 weeks later in 2001 and a 10 k zero walk 3 hit game about two months before against the Twins.

    Also it was a bit crazy to let a guy pitch 135 pitches coming back from major shoulder surgery. Hopefully he’s ok for Collins sake and Johan’s sake.

  224. Cameron Says:

    Because they were probably on steroids too.

  225. Raul Says:

    “Meanwhile another pitcher might have something like 15 k’s and 0 walks and 1 hit and nobody remembers the game”

    Maybe you don’t, but I remember Mike Mussina’s near no-hitters. Sounds like remembering things is your problem. Not a problem with a great pitching performances that don’t end in No-Hitters.

    “Johan had a great game but he gave up 5 base on balls and only had 8 K’s.”

    Really? Only 8 strikeouts? You do realize that a K/9 of 8 is fucking fantastic, right? And that he’s actually averaging 9.0 on the season.

    On June 2nd, 1990, Randy Johnson No-Hit the Detroit Tigers, allowing 6 walks and striking out 8. What a fucking douchebag he must have been.

  226. Raul Says:

    At the ML level, baseball is largely a results-driven entity. Nobody gives a shit how you win, so long as you win — at the end of the day.

    September 15th, 1969, Steve Carlton pitched a complete game, striking out 19 batters.

    He lost 4-3. So who gives a fuck?

  227. John Says:

    Overrated, Raul, not bad. It’s impossible to throw a no-hitter that isn’t at least a great game.

    Kinda like hitting for the cycle. If you got the four hits and 10 total bases, you’re have a great day. But hit 2 HR and 2 doubles and you’re having a better day, even though you don’t get some arbitrary designator.

  228. Cameron Says:

    Mike, next time you check in, here’s an update on the Triangle Offense system I implemented in that simulation for the Wizards.

    …I’m on Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals.I’m well on my way to my FIFTH CONSECUTIVE NBA Championship. …Though Bogut and Bargnani are starting to break down. I decided not to extend Bogut and the contract dispute kinda made his performance tank. Gonna look for a new anchor in the offseason.

  229. Cameron Says:

    I dunno John, Francico Liriano’s no-no was kinda lackluster.

  230. John Says:

    Even then, he gave up fewer baserunners than IP.

    Obviously walking more guys than you strike out is unsustainable, but for that one day? Great game.

    But to Len’s point, it was about the 100th best pitched game that season.

  231. Cameron Says:

    E-Jax had a bad one too. Again, less walks than IP, but not by much.

  232. Jim Says:

    No hitters are exciting, but not an indicator of a quality pitcher.

    Random list of guys w/no hitters

    Bill Momboquet
    Dave Morehouse
    Tom Phoebus
    Bob Moore
    Anibal Sanchez

    Guys w/o a no hitter

    Roger Clemens
    Tom Glavin
    Cliff Lee
    King Felix

  233. Jim Says:

    Fogot CC

  234. Bob Says:

    Catfish Hunter had an ERA+ of 105. Or the same as Jeff Suppan.

  235. Raul Says:

    I seem to recall a comment I made about people using OPS+ as a reason to defend Lance Berkman’s HOF argument.

    And yet here we are with people throwing out ERA+.


  236. Bob Says:

    I sure as shit did not start it. Just respoding to it.

  237. Raul Says:

    ESPN running a story about how Braun is doing better this year than last year.
    I suppose this somehow validates his acquittal of the failed steroid test.

    That, or he moved on to something else, depending on your view.
    Either way, it’s good news for the Brewers who would be in a much worse position in the NL Central without Braun carrying the offense.

  238. Bob Says:

    So, how many people think Braun is the only plater aware of these newly created, but impossible to detect PED’s?

  239. Raul Says:

    Criminals are always ahead of the authorities, and athletes are always ahead of drug testers.

    If Braun is using, there’s little chance he’s the only one.
    By the same token, if Braun is clean, he’s clearly not the only one, either.

  240. Bob Says:

    I actually thought he was going to drop with a line-up that lacks Fielder.

  241. Bob Says:

    Have a good night.

  242. Jim Says:

    Given that the margin of error for ERA+, OPS+ WAR etc might be as high as 20% makes them useless in actually judging the value of a particular player relative to another one, but can be helpful in placing players in broad categories. I.e. as I glance through the Yanks roster I can see that Granderson is having a pretty good year at the plate and that Martin isn’t. Could I have determined that by looking at several categories, yup, but it would take longer.

  243. Raul Says:

    Granderson is OPSing .920.
    Takes literally no more time to evaluate that whatsoever.
    His OPS+ of 142 is meaningless.

  244. Raul Says:

    Back-to-back complete game shutouts by Mets pitchers after RA Dickey shuts down the Cardinals 5-0.

    Is anyone able to search for the last time the Mets accomplished that?

  245. John Says:

    And according to Raul, a .920 OPS is no different whether you’re at Coors Field, Petco, or playing in 1968. It all means the exact same.

  246. Raul Says:

    I didn’t say that. Good to see your ability to put words in peoples’ mouths hasn’t diminished.

    That said, a .920 OPS is fucking outstanding, no matter where it is.

  247. John Says:

    A .920 OPS in Coor’s Field in the 1990’s wasn’t terribly impressive at all.

    And do you seriously STILL not understand that no one, anywhere who evaluates anything, refers to anything in terms of “good,” “bad,” etc?

    Everything is a comparison. Granderson’s OPS is .920. How much higher is it than replacement? How much higher is it than someone making about as much money. Should the Yankees pay him a lot of money when he becomes a FA?

    These are the questions that thinking fans are not asking, not looking for some retarded one word qualitative explanation like “outstanding.”

  248. Cameron Says:

    Dear god, how many times have I seen this? Allow me to but words in both of your mouths.

    Raul: Blahblahblah, strawman argument, lolnerd.

    John: Blahblhablah, buncha numbers, you don’t know how to win baseball games.


  249. John Says:

    To Len’s point, RA Dickey’s today was basically as good as Santana’s.

    Anyway, live game blog time!

  250. JohnBowen Says:

    8-8 Mariners and White Sox. Between this game and that Rangers game, the Mariners should be set on scoring till about the All Star break.

  251. JohnBowen Says:

    Ah nice. Brewers are wearing Gold Ceveceros unis

  252. Cameron Says:

    Smoak, Ackley, and Montero are hitting… Okay. WHEN they hit the ball, they all hit for about .400+ slugging, but they’re all hitting at a .250 pace.

    Considering how green that lineup is… Hold onto it for a bit and they might grow into something special. Even Montero.

  253. Raul Says:

    “A .920 OPS in Coor’s Field in the 1990’s wasn’t terribly impressive at all”

    Sure it was. You’re just impressed by stupid shit that nobody cares about so you overlook and marginalize obvious but important things.

    “And you you seriously STILL not understand that no one, anywhere who evaluates anything, refers to anything in terms of “good, “bad,” etc?”

    Do you seriously STILL not understand that nobody goes “Hey, that guy had 90 RBI, let’s sign him”?? Because you set up that same scenario for every single one of your bullshit SABR arguments that way for going on 5 years on this website.

    “Everything is a comparison”
    The fact that you view baseball through that prism is pathetic and misses the beauty of the game.

  254. Raul Says:

    Robin Ventura used 9 pitchers in a 12 inning game.
    He should be manager of the fucking year.

  255. JohnBowen Says:

    “The fact that you view baseball through that prism is pathetic and misses the beauty of the game.”

    I catch the beauty of the game just fine, thank you. The fact that I don’t jerk-off to high batting averages in no way diminishes that.

  256. Raul Says:

    Fair enough. Being in the Navy, you must have much better things to jerk off to.

    How’s that poster of Viggo Mortensen in Crimson Tide holding up?

  257. Jim Says:

    @254 Somewhere Tony LaRussa has a sh_t eating grin on.

  258. Raul Says:

    Hahaha @ Jim

  259. Cameron Says:

    Tony LaRussa… I’m beginning to hate you. Everyone sees your good use of relievers and your basic specialization and took it WAY the hell too far. You were never this bad, but I gotta blame somebody at this point, because MLB is turning into fucking little league.

  260. Raul Says:

    Top of the 9th in Detroit, Yankees tie the game on Mark Teixeira’s bases loaded walk.

    Detroit wins it in the bottom of the 9th on a sac fly.

  261. Len Says:

    @John 249,

    I was using Bill James old Game Score.

    Dickey was somewhat close to Johan. He had a game score of 82 while Johan’s no-hitter was a 90. Actually Dickey’s 1 hitter from two years ago (91) was ranked slightly higher than Johan’s no-hitter.

    I checked in the play index over at baseball reference and Johan’s game ranked as the 29th best pitched 9 inning game in Mets history although it will probably be looked upon as the best. There were something like 20 9+ inning games that scored higher. It’s hard to think about now but the teams used to have quite a few pitchers have great 10, 11, even 12 inning games.

    Seaver’s best score as a Met (106) came in a game he pitched 12 innings!! against the Dodgers in 1974: 16 k’s, 2 bb, 3 h, 1 er. Seaver gave up a solo home run to Garvey in the 5th and the game was tied 1-1 and Seaver left after 12 innings. He eventually got a no decision.

    The five best Mets pitching best scores in a 9 inning game were:

    Cone 1991 against the Phillies (99): 19K’s, 1bb, 3h, 0-ER

    Seaver 1970 against the Phillies (96): 15k’s, 3bb, 1h, 0-ER

    Seaver 1970 against the Cubs (96): 11k’s, 0bb, 1h, 0-ER (Jimmy Quals game)

    Seaver 1970 against the Padres (96): 19k’s, 2bb, 2h, 1-ER

    Capuano 2011 against the Braves (96): 13k’s, 0bb, 2h, 0-ER

    I’ve never understood why media people rank 1-hitter’s as when they gave up the hit rather than the overall quality of the performance. That Seaver game against the Phillies is never talked about because he gave up the hit in the third inning yet it’s one of his greatest games.

    Their best post-season game was a shut-out Jon Matlack pitched against the Reds in 1973 (89). And the Bobby Jones game and the Mike Hampton game in 2000 scored (88).

  262. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, I can name at least one one-hitter people still talk about. Kerry Wood’s 20 K, no-walk one-hitter.

    Or, according to Game Score as you mention, the greatest game ever pitched.

  263. Len Says:

    @Cameron 262,

    Yeah I was going to list that Kerry Wood game. I remember being in Chicago about a month after that happened and they were still talking about it. Unbelievable game when you think about it, 20k’s, 0bb, 1h, 0-ER. Better than any no-hitter ever pitched.

  264. Raul Says:

    Except that it isn’t.

    For all the shit I have to endure on this site about outs just being outs, now somehow a 1-hitter is better than any perfect game.

    Why? Because Wood struck out 20.

    Either an out is just an out and Adam Dunn is god, or you people have to acknowledge that the kinds of outs you make matter.

    Go date a hermaphrodite if you want it both ways.

  265. Cameron Says:

    I personally don’t give a shit, man. Long as you can keep a guy off home, I don’t care how you do it.

  266. Cameron Says:

    Oh, I think I found the worst no-no ever by official terms.

    Steve Barber and Stu Miller combining for a no-hitter but still losing 2-1.

  267. Cameron Says:

    Also, Daryl Dawkins was awesome.

  268. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, context. Whether a batter makes a regular out or Ks makes LITTLE difference, on average, all other things being equal. Though when evaluating the quality of a pitching performance, Ks do mean more, because they do not rely on fielders, the pitcher beat the hitter, & the random factors such as where a ball is hit is eliminated.

    OPS + rarely have anything approaching a 20 % margin of error. I think it is more likely for ERA +, because the quality of defenses can vary significantly. Berkman’s OPS + is impressive, Pop’s like, but his playing time is a bit short, & his defense gives back some value. I do not see him as a borderline choice now.

    One thing we cannot entirely now & that has not been considered when evaluating games—. how much luck is involved? Not only where balls fall, but simple things like that sometimes whole teams are hot or slumping, the batters sharp or not for no good reason other than random chance.

    This is where you use the subjective factors like your eyes, & what the other teams say. The night Pedro buckled down against the Yankees & shut them down, or Bibby or Koufax in their legendary post season games, are examples of mastery perhaps greater than the box scores showed.

  269. Mike Felber Says:

    “Gibby”, not Netanyahu.

  270. Patrick Says:

    .920 OPS is great even in slow-pitch softball. Everyone understands that a .920 OPS is more common today than in 1968 but Park Factors have serious flaws that lead to flawed OPS+.

    Look at Adrian Gonzalez for proof of that. Fenway Park is playing like Petco to him but his OPS+ takes a hit because he’s playing in a park that traditionally has over $100M worth of hitters in it every year, as opposed to $20M in San Diego. Put Manny and Papi in Petco in their prime and it becomes much more of a hitter’s park.

    I was at the Rays game yesterday. Matusz and Hellickson were outstanding. Both guys were let down by the defense but still only a 2-1 Oriole win. Good game.

    I didn’t stay for the free LL Cool J concert though….

    If Matusz continues to have the command he’s had lately, he’s going to be the number 1 everyone thought he’d be. When he can spot his fastball, his slider is that much nastier.

  271. Mike Felber Says:

    You can take out the home team stats to eliminate PFs inflated by great home team offenses. But a 920 at (pre-humidor especially) Coors field is not so great.

  272. John Says:

    @270, not how park factors are calculated.

    Manny and Ortiz would’ve hit well at Petco, but far far better during their road games. That’s what would have gone into finding the park factor, which would’ve stayed pitcher friendly.

  273. Raul Says:

    The fact that a “park factor” can change with literally no differences made to the dimensions of the park render the statistic completely bogus and meaningless.

  274. Raul Says:

    Miami is filling their home stadium to 76.2 capacity. Good for 12th in MLB and 6th in the National League.

    Yeah, that Castro comment was fucking brutal…

  275. Len Says:


    There’s only been (4) 20K nine inning performances in baseball history and there’s been (232) no hitters since 1901 so which is accomplishment is more rare?

    Wood struck out 20 and had zero walks and only gave up 1 hit that’s the difference. Other than his catcher, Wood didn’t need the other 7 fielders for 75% of that game. There were only 8 balls put in play during that whole game and only one base runner which is just insane. That’s like one of those mythical Satchel Paige games.

    Liriano had a 2k, 6bb, 0-H, 0-ER, no hitter last year that wasn’t an all time great game. Dwight Gooden had a 5k, 6bb, 0-H, 0-ER in 1996 that was also not an all time great game. In relative value those games aren’t much better than R.A. Dickey’s 9K, 0bb, 7-H, 0-ER game from Saturday. Gooden’s no-hitter isn’t even among the 10 best games of his career.

    I don’t get the Adam Dunn comment, I didn’t say anything about Dunn.

    If you have a fetish for Hermaphrodites so be it, strange comment.

  276. Patrick Says:

    @271- agree somewhat with sentence #1, except then the constant is how good or bad the home team’s pitching staff is. People forget how great the Rockies hitters were, 5 or 6 bordline HOFs. Strongly disagree with sentence #2.

    @272- If the AL East teams played at Petco than the PF would change dramatically and that’s why I strongly agree with @273.

    I have tickets for the Rangers @Petco later this month so I’ll get tocheck out the “marine effect” for myself. Prediction; Hamilton and Texas light up the scoreboard.

    I’m going to suggest this one to Myth Busters. Shoot fallballs with a machine, set at a constant force, at different trajectories to different parts of every stadium, during neutral weather conditions, and measure the outcomes. Then we will know what we’re talking about.

  277. Chuck Says:

    When park factors are determined by the park, then we might be on to something.

    Until then, they, along with any “stat” built upon them, are meaningless.

    Did the humidor have an effect on runs scored?

    If so, then park factors are bullshit.

    Did the fact there were more syringes in the clubhouse than at the local CVS have anything to do with runs scored?

    If so, then park factors are bullshit.

    Because neither had anything to do with the “park”.

  278. John Says:

    @276, even if the Yankees put up 5 runs per game at Petco, they would likely score MORE in other parks.

    So, no park factor change due to just having better hitters.

    Look at Oakland. In the late 80’s, the park factor was like 93ish, now its closer to 100.

    It had physical changes (thanks to Al Davis) that made it less pitcher friendly. These changes were reflected, even though McGwire, Canseco, and Henderson left and guys like Daric Barton play there now.

  279. John Says:

    @277, clearly humidors count as part of the park factor.

    Holy fuck, you’re clueless.

  280. Chuck Says:

    Clearly, they’re not.

    Next, you’ll be saying the fried chicken and beer are park factors in Fenway.


  281. John Says:

    If the Mariners all moved to Coors, they would score like 3.8 r/g.

    So, pitcher-friendly park factor, right?

    Except that they’d be scoring 3.1 runs per game on the road.

    How many runs they actually score doesn’t contribute, just the ratio of home to away runs (for both hitters and pitchers).

    Plenty of things can change how hitter-friendly a park is year in and year out besides dimensions. Things like day/night games, open/close roofs, weather in general, crowds, whether or not there’s still a ballpark standing right next door creating a freaking wind tunnel, etc. Not just dimensions.

    And yes, Chuck. If one year a park had no humidor and the next year it did, then that’ll affect run scoring which is fucking obviously part of how hitter-friendly a park is and how things like a player’s OPS are going to be affected by playing there, which is THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF PARK FACTORS TO BEGIN WITH.

  282. Raul Says:

    And if the Yankees move to the Mariners’ division and play them 9 times….you know it’s just easier to call you stupid.

  283. Bob Says:

    Onto other stuff.

    1. The draft is tomorrow.

    2. The Dominican Summer League started yesterday.

  284. Raul Says:

    Not to impressed with this draft coming up.

    This one’s probably gonna have talent emerge from the mid-to-late rounds.

  285. Bob Says:

    Frow what I have read it is a weak draft. Although I suppose people are looking at it in comparison to last year’s loaded dradt, or to the surefire bets of Harper and Strasburg or years prior.

  286. Raul Says:

    Bryce Harper homered off Tommy Hanson in the 1st inning.
    It’s his 5th of the year.

    Chuck says Harper will get sent down before the end of the year. Maybe so, maybe not.

    Over/Under 12 on Harper’s home runs this year?

  287. Bob Says:


  288. Chuck Says:

    “Plenty of things can change how hitter-friendly a park is year in and year out besides dimensions. Things like day/night games, open/close roofs, weather in general, crowds, whether or not there’s still a ballpark standing right next door creating a freaking wind tunnel, etc. Not just dimensions.”

    “Holy fuck, you’re clueless.”

  289. Cameron Says:

    Again, #248


  290. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, you think KC’s going pitching this year in the draft?

  291. Cameron Says:

    Also, who are you thinking for Houston, Appell or Buxton?

  292. Raul Says:

    KC should go pitching. Montgomery should have been in the Majors by now. Jeremy Jeffress has been terrible. And Jake Odorizzi doesn’t have the endurance (yet?).

    Eventually Myers and Gordon will man the corner outfield spots. Starling in center. And Moose and Hosmer anchoring the infield.

    But they’ll need a long-term solution at 2nd base, and at least 3 home grown starting pitchers.

  293. Cameron Says:

    My guess for KC is Kyle Zimmer. College junior righty from the University of San Francisco. Close to MLB ready, a righty to balance that Heavy lefty bias in the system, and the only position player still on the board at that time is Carlos Corea, a shortstop.

    We need a RHP more than a shortstop.

  294. Chuck Says:

    I think KC will end up going pitching, but by default.

    I don’t think Buxton, Zunino or Correa will be available, and I’m with you on Zimmer.

    I have Houston taking Buxton.

  295. Chuck Says:

    “But they’ll need a long-term solution at 2nd base…”

    Christian Colon?

  296. Mike Felber Says:

    John put it well, & there has been no attempt to address his sound description of many other things that go into park factors.

    a 920 just at home in pre-humidor Coor’s field was nothing special. a 920 OPS + that is the total for home & away or a player is much better. But still not nearly as good as a league average home stadium 920 OPS + would be.

    5 or 6 borderline HOFers at one time? Let’s here them counted off. Because I am pretty sure there are going to be a couple of not really borderline guys in there. I do not think you can get to even a handful without counting Bichette, who was only a pretty good hitter overall.

    You can look at these guys home & away splits & see how dramatically their stats were effected by the park alone.

    The situation was about as extreme as the offensive environment ~ 1930. Era AND park made the #s crazy. A similar example, the inverse?

    Take Lefty Grove. Kept in the minors because hi smanager did not want to lose him. Consider the era & park he pitched in. He “only” had an ERA in the .300s. Still won 9 ERA titles, & for actual adjusted ERA, was amongst the very greatest ever.

    Dramatically better than most every pitcher who had a 2 something ERA in the dead ball era or the modern pitcher’s era.

  297. Cameron Says:

    Mike, if you wanna compare OPS to OPS+, use a realistic comparison. a 920 OPS is Curtis Granderson. A 920 OPS+ is five Babe Ruths.

    …And I’m pretty sure a mathematical impossibility.

  298. Raul Says:

    I forgot about Colon.

    Could be a good player. Hasn’t shown any dominance though.

  299. Cameron Says:

    He’s been fairly decent Raul. Projects to only about 10-15 HR if you’re lucky, but the guy’s got .300 contact with good legs and a good glove. Not a superstar, but not a bust by any stretch.

  300. Raul Says:

    A fan ran on the field just now in Detroit.
    MLB doesn’t show the fans because they “don’t want to encourage that behavior.”

    Yet a player hits a home run and a fan throws the ball back onto the field. That shit gets replayed every time.

    Maybe some day an outfielder will catch one in the back.

  301. Cameron Says:

    …And my mind goes to weird places. I thought “What’s the worst case scenario?”

    To me, worst case scenario translated into a major league pitcher going to a game on an off-day, getting an argument with the outfielder after catching the ball and drilling him in the back of the head when he turns around. The outfielder is dead, the pitcher is imprisoned for manslaughter or second-degree murder (depends on the state), and fielding helmets are now mandatory league-wide.

  302. Mike Felber Says:

    Dante’s inferno.

    holy cow, on B-R WAR, Bichette has more negative than positive value for WAR, & only 3.0 WAR for his CAREER. He gets a more generous assessment on, still only 11.5 over a career!

    Any indication that his overall performance is not somewhere between this level? I do not think do. An average starter is worth not less than 2 WAR per year. He does not appear to have averaged 1. When you factor in his defense & position under against his 107 OPS + for under 7 K PAs, he was more like a decent journey man at best.

    These #s are not even deflated by a long career or decline. Whenever he got significant playing time, even at the end of his career, he had little variation in his performance. His best year by far, even fangraphs only gave him a 3.0 WAR. No other year did they even give him a 2.

    When you look at actual contributions & defensive liabilities as a corner outfielder, he never had a year that was all start quality. Bichette Happens indeed.

  303. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not know what you mean Cam re: a 920 OPS + being 5 Babe Ruths.

  304. Cameron Says:

    my bad, four and a half. His career OPS+ is 206. If Babe Ruth has a 206 ops+ you’d need to be four and a half times the hitter Babe Ruth was to be a 920 OPS+ hitter.

    Or basically, about as unrealistic a stat as I’ve ever heard posited ever.

  305. Cameron Says:

    Pretty sure that’s about as impossible a stat as I’ve seen. From what I can remember, I had a season in a video game where I batted .600+, hit 150 HR, and had 300+ hits.

    …My OPS+ was somewhere in the 300s.

  306. Chuck Says:

  307. Bob Says:

    Cameron, do you ever get bored with video games? Seem quite easy to figure out if you are belting 150 homers and scoring at will. Perhaps just me.

  308. Bob Says:

    Also, I just learned the draft has been reduced to 40 rounds from 50. Part of the new CBA.

  309. Cameron Says:

    It was an older game, Bob. One with a particularly broken batting engine. I’m not THAT overpowered at the plate in just about any other baseball game.

    …However, I’m amazing at pitching with any game you throw at me. Real pitching knowledge translates to virtual success. Batting in games is just timing.

  310. Mike Felber Says:

    Oh. Right, you must have noticed that I meant 920 as OPS only, right?

    But you take Ruth for a career, even realizing that he was not used for greatest value/as a hitter for some years, & then calculate what a hypothetical 920 OPS guy whose home park was pre-humidor Coors Fields, (over the same length career) is worth. And make that 920 including road games.

    Ruth Would be worth around 5X as much as that guy. If you used only the 920 from home games, that is, not averaging in road games, Ruth would be worth way more than that.

  311. Chuck Says:

    In the seven years he played somewhere other than Colorado, Bichette had double digit homers four times, with a career high of 16 with Cincinnati the year after he left Denver.

    In the seven years he played in Colorado, he AVERAGED 29, with three 30+ seasons and an NL leading 40 in 1995.

    In the six full time seasons he played in Colorado, Vinny Castilla averaged 37 homers a year, in his other seven seasons outside Colorado, he averaged 11.

    The park can’t play that much of a factor, otherwise Tulowitzki and Gonzalez and some others would be putting up the same numbers, despite the humidor.

    If you honestly look at the Rockies from 1995 til maybe 2001 or ‘02 and steriods isn’t the first word that pops into your head, you’re obviously not looking close enough.

  312. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, I actually remembered an episode of Mythbusters that was baseball related. They tested the myth of the humidor’s effect on balls in the air. While they weren’t able to get to Coors, they were able to recreate the relative mass of the balls for the park they were at. Lot of science involved, can’t remember everything off the top of my head.

    On average, the non-humidor balls traveled about fifty feet or so farther. The thin air in Denver still makes the balls fly farther, but the non-humidor balls still fly even farther and lead to bigger flight paths.

    …HOWEVER, I don’t have any doubt that Bichette and Castilla were on steroids, and Helton and Walker have similar physical and statistical projections of the typical steroid user. The added power there, combined with the non-humidor Coors turned 300 foot balls into 400 foot balls.

    tl;dr, it’s probably a case of “Little of Column A, Little of Column B”.

  313. Chuck Says:

    50 feet?


    Maybe 15, 18 tops.

    No more than that.

    It’s not THAT big a difference.

  314. Cameron Says:

    i’ll rewatch the episode when I get the chance, chuck. I pulled it off the top of my head, but it was a noticeable increase.

  315. Chuck Says:

    Don’t bother.

    BP did a study and the difference was 14.8 feet.

  316. Chuck Says:

    On a weightloss program starting tomorrow..tired of being out of shape.

    Goal is 30 pounds by August 1st.

  317. Cameron Says:

    Thanks. Mythbusters tested it in the Bay Area under simulated masses anyway, so the results were a bit in question.

    Still, 14.8 feet… That could be enough to push a juicer over the edge. Death by inches, if you will.

  318. Chuck Says:

    The average homerun isn’t hit by Mike Stanton or Adam Dunn, they’re hit by utility outfielders and Yuniesky Betancourt.

    Take 15 feet off Stanton’s average homer, and he loses maybe two or three per year.

    Take 15 feet off Betancourt’s, and he goes from 12 to 2.

    Those guys in Colorado were hitting fucking moonshots.

    Steriods add more than the humidor subtracts.

  319. Cameron Says:

    I wouldn’t doubt that, Chuck. But let’s face it, Bichette and Castilla probably needed all the help they could get to hit 40. 15 feet for them meant a lot more than 15 feet meant for Mark McGwire.

  320. Chuck Says:


    Without the humidor, Bichette and Castilla are still hitting 30-35 a year.

    We already know what they did without steriods in other parks.

    They were utility outfielders and Yuniesky Betancourt.

  321. Cameron Says:

    C’mon, Bichette and Castilla a were bad, but no need to insult them, man. After all, only a dumbass would sign that useless tub of shit.


  322. Chuck Says:

    Believe it or not, I found this website off a Peter Gammons tweet.

    The late, great Terry Kath on guitar and vocals.

  323. Chuck Says:

  324. JohnBowen Says:

    Holy crap, comment 311 is dumb.

    Vinny Castilla and Dante Bichette never hit a ton of home runs except when they played in Colorado.

    Kinda sounds like park factors are a fucking great thing to look at.

    Take Vinny Castilla.

    1995-1999: Averaged 40 HR/162 games as a Rockie.


    2000-2003: 21 HR/162. That’s half as many, for those who suck at math.

    So, he just stopped taking steroids when he left Colorado? That’s what everyone was doing in 2001, I’m sure.

  325. JohnBowen Says:

    If you think playing in the same place will mean the exact same playing conditions year to year, you either have never played baseball, or don’t understand how weather works.

    Not to mention about 80 other factors.

  326. Cameron Says:

    …John, just shut the fuck up. You’re sounding like an asshole harping on this.

  327. JohnBowen Says:

    “And if the Yankees move to the Mariners’ division and play them 9 times”

    Then what?

    The Mariners would play the Yankees 9 more times at home, yes.


    The games at Yankee Stadium will be, on average, 7-4 and the games at Safeco will be, on average, 5-2 and even within the context of that single space of 18 games, Safeco will STILL BE A PITCHER-FRIENDLY PARK.

    It seriously amazes me that you’re still not getting this.

  328. JohnBowen Says:

    Eh, that was harsh. Have a good night, all.

  329. Chuck Says:


    I second that.

  330. Cameron Says:

    Sorry John, but you broke Internet Rule 31. Don’t Feed The Trolls. You bring up this stuff, you know what’s gonna happen. You know what I call guys who start fights? Assholes. You know fights get started when you bring this up, yet you still bring it up. Ergo, asshole.

  331. Cameron Says:

    Sorry, Rule #1. I don’t know what rule 31 is. …I know what rule 34 is, though. Wish I didn’t…

  332. JohnBowen Says:

    I’ll shut up when one of you takes the two seconds of research it would take to look up how park factors are calculated, instead of making stuff up that’s blatently false.

  333. Cameron Says:

    Eh hem… Park factor.

    PF = 100*((Home Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/Home Games/(Road Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/Road Games)

    The problem in this that they bring up is the year-to-year variability. Say they lose an ace pitcher and they get shelled frequently. Not only does that jack up the runs against at home, but it does it on the road too. Changes to the team itself can somehow make every park in the league more hitter friendly. It’s not measuring the park itself, but the performance of the team in it. Theoretically, a park that’s hard to hit homers in could still be harmed because of a weak pitching staff.

    …Except it’s not theoretical, because that’s exactly the case of Kaufmann Stadium. It’s where fly balls go to die because of humid air and bad winds, yet it’s still a hitter’s park because for half of the game, KC’s historically bad pitching gets a lot of balls laced out into the field.

    One, don’t tell me I don’t know how park factors are calculated. Two, don’t tell me the park is the only thing influencing it because it CLEARLY isn’t. And three, I know park factors are bullshit because the highest homer total a Royal has EVER hit in a season is 31, despite historically being a “hitter’s park” because of artificial PF inflation by shit pitching.

  334. Cameron Says:

    And for the record, you can point out what makes a park hitter or pitcher friendly in plain terms without a number using common sense. For example.

    Yankees Stadium: “Right Field is really short, so pull-hitting lefties hit well there. The facade also creates a wind tunnel at high altitudes, so uppercut hitters hit better there.”

    Coors Field: “The air in Denver is thin and dry, so balls fly farther there.”

    PETCO Park: “The outfield fences are so far out you can build a small town in the outfield, so it’s hard to homer there.”

    AT&T Park: “While it’s hard to hit home runs to left or center, the odd shape of the right-center power alley makes it far easier to hit triples there than any other park in the league.”

    So on, and so on. Every park is different, you don’t need to apply a number to it to explain how. You also don’t need to factor in the play of the team in it, either.

  335. John Says:

    Not the actual formula used in OPS+ calculations, first off.

    Secondly, your “losing an ace” theory proves my point. A team gets shelled more both at home and on the road. So, no difference to park factor based on that.

    Thirdly, you’ve proven my point further with Kaufman. The asinine theory from you geniuses is that great hitters generate hitter friendly park factors, but Kaufman has a hitter-friendly park factor despite (usually) not having outstanding hitters other than Beltran and Brett? Sure, because its based on home-away splits.

  336. Cameron Says:

    Not really John. A great hitter helps, but bad pitching “helps” it to the point of artificial inflation. If you look at the raw numbers, KC doesn’t produce a lot of homers, but an unusually high number of base hits and XBH. It isn’t the park, it’s the shit pitching. 1-5, worst in the league since 1993.

    Raw numbers tell different stories than formulas. Do the formulas tell a better story? …Granted, most of the time I think they do, but never the complete story.

  337. John Says:

    @334, in no walk of life is qualitative bullshit like that taken seriously.

    If you wanna be a GM (or engineer, businessman, or basically any job in the universe), you need a number on that kind of thing. CarGo is helped by Coors tells me very little; Cargo is 20% better than the league average outfielder tells me MUCH more.

  338. John Says:

    @336, but the reason for the park factor isn’t the shit pitching, it’s that the shit pitching appears shittier at home than on the road.

    Put 5 Pedro’s on the Royals, and its still hitter-friendly, because Pedro will do better on the road than at home.

  339. Cameron Says:

    …Fuck it. At this point, I’m breaking Rule #1 myself.

  340. Raul Says:

    It’s an equation entirely dependent on the quality of the teams and the quality of the opponents.

    It would be like trying to classify “Boxing Ring Factors” and using statistics from white and black boxers.

    It’s fucking stupid.
    And the fact that you keep trying to defend it just means you’re being stupid too.

  341. Raul Says:

    Is Barry Zito an impending free agent?
    He’s pitching well.

  342. Cameron Says:

    I believe he’s a free agent after next season. Signed a seven-year deal in 2007.

  343. Raul Says:

    Funny. 2007 doesn’t seem that long ago. Then again, A-Rod was winning MVPs so maybe it was.

  344. Mike Felber Says:

    You guys seem to enjoy essentially calling each other retards. So be it.

    I think PF are imperfect but isolate parks enough to be valuable & at least better than not having them. John has made a decent case.

    Cameron. Because I have been here for years & am way your senior (just turned 47), I am going to write a variant of what I did once before. Your hyper-aggressive tough guy affect neither feels authentic, nor is consistent with who you used to be. I think you are trying to fit in.

    Folks are rarely trolling here, & we seem to enjoy arguing about stuff, & some getting annoyed that others dare to have “dumb” opinions. John was not trolling nor feeding trolls. It was a virtue when you did not curse at folks & profanely order them to shup-uppa-you-face.

    And why such vitriol for Yuniesky? He was not raping babies, he just is not a skilled player at the MLB level. These are all issues of temperament, & if you are honest with yourself, if you want to do an A-hole patrol, you would need to round yourself up 1st.

    Sorry I had no means to tell you this privately. But while we can consensually take the piss out of each other, an essentially sweet nature seemingly hardened & getting mean is a regression.

    And I do not believe it is your natural character, let alone higher self.

  345. Cameron Says:

    It’s fine Mike, and normally I am a much nicer person, but when someone hits the same note over and over KNOWING the reaction it gets and continues to do it just really pisses me off.

    And I really don’t hate Yuni, he’s just such an easy target.

  346. Mike Felber Says:

    There is no reason for anyone to get upset about academic matters like park factors. Chuck takes digs at SM & some stuff regularly, & while I do not agree with his extreme view that it is useless/all wrong, he is just stating an opinion, & you would not tell him to STFU. And there is nothing wrong with someone stating a non-defamatory opinion. And folks like Raul like to get riled up/are not really that upset. It is mainly you that is upset.

    If you would not say/risk saying such inhumane things about YB in person, why do it virtually?

    Nah, you are way too smart-mainly not mired in deep delusion about who you are-to deny that it is not some horrible provocation here. Us old folks might love to preach, & not to sound like Yoda…

    But it all comes from Mind. Stability & peace of mind. You only target YB due to some misperceived emotional need to lash out. There is always an “easy target” for bullies. You are not naturally one.

  347. Cameron Says:

    Inhumane? I don’t say the guy’s a rapist or anything. I just say he’s overweight, slow, can’t field, and is a terrible hitter. …And that’s all true. The guy isn’t just bad, he is consistently bad, yet somehow keeps finding work and people who want him because of his “ability” to make errors at two positions. He is, in short, the Nickelback of baseball.

    But it’s harmless really. I don’t wish ill will towards the dude. But he’s just such a fuckup you can’t not laugh at him.

    And I don’t hate John, but at this point, whenever he brings up a sabermetric argument, it’s not that I disagree with him. I think Park Factors are a good idea. They’re not perfectly executed, but it is good to have SOMETHING that lets people know what’s a good park to hit in or not. It’s not the argument itself, it’s that the argument without fail leads to the constant fighting and the fighting is just a bunch of petty name-calling bullshit that I’m just tired of seeing. It’s not I think he has a bad idea or anything. But when you say something you know is gonna piss someone off and you keep saying it, that’s kind of an asshole thing to do.

  348. Mike Felber Says:

    False. You have said that kind of stuff previously. Now you called him a useless tub of shit.

    No, only those with cruel impulses &/or dealing with personal issues by picking on someone seemingly vulnerable cannot help laughing at folks.

    You are also in complete denial about something that is easily within the “pay grade” of your intelligence. If you did not have these issues.

    You must know it is bass-ackwards to condemn someone for bringing something up…Because OTHERS will be abusive or nasty. Or in our peculiar case, it is a not entirely knowable mix of a bit of animus or so, but seemingly more macho, reflexive shadowboxing.

    You cannot blame someone for politely exercising free speech due to the bad reactions of others. Any more than you could yell at Chuck for bringing up some of his pet peeves)-if, say, I then was disparaging towards him as opposed to just disagreeing with him, then it would be me who would deserve the spanking.

    You never hear me call anyone an A-hole. But you know in your heart that your gratuitous angry reactions are in that direction.

  349. Cameron Says:

    Mike, I’ve spent the past six years moderating message boards and forums across the internet. If someone doesn’t step in every now and then to stop people from killing each other, it gets ugly. I like this place, I don’t want it to go down the roads some other places I’ve seen go down.

  350. Mike Felber Says:

    Really? Then why do you not moderate yourself?

    You have not addressed my concerns. You are transparently & systematically sidestepping every logical point. I will now make it impossible for you.

    1) Several people told you that you were way harsh.

    2) Calling someone on something you find provocative in nasty & “fighting words” language is a sad hypocrisy. Like slapping a kid around for roughhousing.

    3) Your target was entirely misplaced. I purposely used Chuck as an example, so you would see he has has often done the same thing as John, would not think i am favoring John since we overwhelmingly agree, AND to show you that attacking either one would be unfair & illogical.

    It is not expressing an opinion that should ever be considered a problem, nor disagreeing, but HOW one goes about both of these things.

    4) You would never speak to Chuck that way. And should not have done it at all.

    5) Yes, i have “stepped in” many times here over the years. Your general philosophy is sound.

    But take some responsibility for your own issues man: YOU were the only one who was out of line. And it was not driven merely by you not wanting to see fighting, but as your YB comments showed, your own feelings & aggression.

    You may have been a good moderator for years, since HS it seems. But in this case you both imagined & created the problem. And you know better than to think cursing & insulting someone-even IF he had done anything wrong…

    Is likely to produce anything more than reciprocal contempt & escalating aggression.

  351. Cameron Says:

    For the record, if Chuck was instigating instead of John, I’d be the one calling him an asshole. In fact, I think I have a couple times over the years.

    I’ll admit, I’ve jumped the gun on this one and was a little over the line. I overreacted. However, I’d rather overreact than do nothing. It’s better for someone to be mad at an outside party so they can vent instead of focusing on the real problem. It’s worked before, I kinda hoped it was gonna work again. Considering John was yelling at me and not Raul, I think it kinda did.

    But I’ve seen fights like these escalate enough times to start to get paranoid when things get a little heated for my liking. We already have problems attracting new members (Hi Len), so that’s an early sign of a dying site. Then we start losing old members, and we’ve lost a couple, but I don’t think the fighting drove anyone off except Shaun, and he came back. Third is when we start taking it out on each other and that’s when the board itself starts falling apart. I don’t want that to happen, I’ve seen it happen enough.

    It’s walkin’ like a duck, it’s talkin’ like a duck. I’m starting to worry and I’m just reverting to my instincts of trying to cut off fights where I see ‘em.

  352. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not trhink you called Chuck an asshole, ever. He can confirm if that is so.

    There were others that left do to the ill will & said so, like Brautigan-though he came back.

    You have good intentions, but are flat out in denial that it is your own issues that caused you to be the one who acted utterly improperly. John merely brought up a matter, in a polite manner. YOU cursed at him, & ordered him to STFU. That is the kind of conduct that breeds anger, more bas conduct, & drives folks away.

    John rarely yells at anyone, as in, he & others seem to not mind calling each other idiots, they have done so & do not get upset, mostly, for years, so I say eh, let ‘em keep it up. In this case there was not even a rude word & YOU lashed out.

    An analogy to your crazy logic at the end of paragraph #2 above:

    I see two guys arguing, old friends but not being ad hominem. I slap one guy for bringing up an issue that I think will make the pother guy yell at him.

    Then, the guy I slap slaps me back, & i declare Victory for keeping the Peace, because those 2 guys did not throw hands.

    Yes, you get paranoid when there is acrimony. You will forgive me if I speculate that it seems like a kid who is all to used to seeing his parents fight. But you took your own arbitrarily upset feelings out when there was nothing threatening going on.

    In Buddhism the 2 pisons are anger, greed, & strangely enough to western eyes, delusion. Not pride, sloth, lust…delusion. The fact is that Ego has us disown our own disagreeable motivations & conduct. Hence projection, scapegoating, & hate gain a foothold.

    I am not saying you are so screwed up in your general dealing with reality. But in this case, you are in denial about your own anger & actions. And said anger comes from fear & disowned emotions.

  353. Mike Felber Says:

    “3 poisons”.

  354. Cameron Says:

    Heh… I was about to post another counterpoint to that, but then I was distracted by my roommate’s pet Burman and I just couldn’t stay serious anymore. The power of pussy, eh?

  355. Cameron Says:

    Oh, and you know what’s funny? I’ll go on record as saying this. Will Smith, The Beastie Boys, and Sir Mix-Alot had more to do with making rap mainstream than N.W.A, Public Enemy, and Grandmaster Flash. Were the latter more infulential? Oh god yes. But who were the big acts to help the general public accept the new music?

    The same shit we’re laughing at as corny novelty acts now. Funny that.

  356. Mike Felber Says:

    There is no substantive & true counterpoint. And most of your prior points ostentatiously skipped addressing the details of what I illustrated.

    But that is true re: rap. I looked up & learned about the “Birman”. Adorable cat.

  357. Cameron Says:

    Another random fact.

    Star Wars: Return of the Jedi was originally supposed to be Star Wars: Revenge of the Jedi. Why the name change?

    The new name was one letter shorter, saving $916.34 in merchandising costs. Considering how fucking gargantuan the Star Wars merchandising empire became, this is hilarious in hindsight.

  358. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, I applaud your motivation, but is not 30 lbs. too much to lose in under 2 months? You can surely do that, but all that i have read sdays do not lose more than 2 lbs. a week, or 1% of your body weight…Otherwise your body will react like it is starving, burn fewer calories than otherwise, & horde them more when you return to a maintenance diet. And it tends to allow you to lose muscle.

    Why not 2, instead of 4 lbs. weekly?

  359. Cameron Says:

    Wish me luck y’all. I’m gonna try and get back into a bit of creative writing for a bit. My usual endeavors are just contributions to other’s works. I’m building my own setting gonna try and put work into it. Haven’t done that for… Too long now.

    Also have a script idea I wanna work on. Sort of an adaptation of On the Waterfront, but in a modern setting and instead of the mob cracking down on whistleblowers, it’s government union busters. Influenced by assholes like Scott Walker and Chris Christie. Though that one may never come off the shelf due to my complete lack of screenwriting experience or knowhow. …I know how to write for the stage, though…

  360. Chuck Says:

    “I’ll shut up when one of you takes the two seconds of research it would take to look up how park factors are calculated..”

    Hey, smart guy, it’s the formula we’re arguing in the first place.

    Park factors are the foul territory in Oakland or the LF wall in Fenway or the roof open v. closed in Arizona.

    Day games over night games or wind blowing in or out affect scoring, but they have nothing to do with the “park”.

  361. Chuck Says:

    “PF = 100*((Home Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/Home Games/(Road Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/Road Games”

    I rest my case.

    A team’s HOME park factor is determined 50% by what they do on the ROAD.

    Right, gotcha.

  362. Chuck Says:


    I don’t think so, Mike. I once lost 32 pounds in 26 days, but I was a lot younger and more active then, and it really wasn’t that difficult.

    In my 30+ years in the field I’ve seen and heard a lot of bullshit based on fads like Atkins and Hollywood Diet, etc, the majority of them are in fact dangerous.

    Losing weight is nothing more than understanding how your body works and applying common sense to the process.

    Most weight loss programs fail within the first two weeks for the basic reason people don’t know how their body will react to the changes you’re attempting.

    The first thing you have to do is realize why you’re overweight, there could be several underlying reasons but in most cases they are tied to one or two specific factors.

    In my case, it’s a sedentary lifestyle tied into sitting behind a desk for ten hours a day. I don’t eat as much as when I was active and am not a fast food junkie, but I am a grazer…a handful of chips here, a beer there.

    All those factors add unnecessarily to what I take in daily, and help to exceed what has become a minimal daily requirement.

    Another factor is the lack of physical activity. I’ve never been in a gym in my life but there was a time where my body fat was below 10%, and while I’ll never hit that again, there’s no real reason why it should be 20-30% either.

    One of the main reasons why loss programs fail so early in the process is the mistake of decreasing caloric intake while SIMULTANEOUSLY increasing physical activity.

    The body doesn’t work that way.

    You can’t expect your body to be able to adjust to a reduced intake while at the same time putting a demand on it for a higher intake due to the exercise.

    I will fast one day per week, usually on Mondays. All I will take in are a couple bottles of vitamin water.

    For the next two weeks I’ll focus on balancing intake and eliminating bad habits and probably will start a basic physical program, treadmill, shooting hoops in the driveway, maybe hitting some balls at the batting cages.

    Once the “hard part” has passed which is around the 15-20 day mark, I should be home free.

  363. Cameron Says:

    And just to let y’all know how much I can vary in my tastes, I love On the Waterfront so much I have an idea for an homage screenplay to it…

    And the last movie I watched was “Abraham Lincoln vs. Zombies”, a knockoff of the upcoming “Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter” where Abraham Lincoln is a one-liner spewing action hero (including the awesomely cheesy “Emancipate THIS!”) where Abraham Lincoln is a frontline fighter against Confederate zombies and his secret service includes a one “John Wilkinson”, southern spy John Wilkes Booth who’s conspiring with the zombies to kill Lincoln. Lincoln eventually gets bitten and the end scene is him going to the Ford Theater, just minutes shy of turning into a zombie himself. It is terribly written, filled with GODAWFUL CGI, and saying it is filled with D-list actors is a compliment.

    …And yet, it is gloriously awesome. It’s so cheesy and bad that it sits at the crossroads of “So bad it’s good” and “So bad it’s awesome”.

  364. Patrick Says:

    Tropicana Field has a 92 PF this year and last year. 95 in 2010, 98 in ‘09, 101 in ‘08 and averaged about 98 the first 10 years.

    The field hasn’t changed, it’s 72 degrees 81 times a year with zero wind and unchanging visibility.

    What has changed is the Rays’ pitching. Price, Shields and Hellickson and a bullpen that throws strikes, changed a neutral park into a pitcher’s park. It has nothing to do with the park. It’s a pitcher’s park because the Ray’s actually have pitchers. So, BJ Upton’s OPS+ gets a boost because he’s on a team that has great arms.

    PF’s are not science, not even close, and I have to wonder about the actual IQ of someone who not only thinks they are, but also has the nerve to call those who oppose PF’s accuracy as “stupid”.

  365. Cameron Says:

    From a mathematical standpoint, the equation IS structured properly. With the primary numerator being the scoring environment in the home park, it does measure the scoring environment of the park relative to the rest of where the team plays.

    …However, it is variable by the performance of the team and the team doesn’t play in EVERY park in the league and the parks they do play in are 1-3 series, making there be a large sample size of parks, but not in an equally-distributed sample size.

    I’d suggest a way to mathematically isolate the influence of the park, but the problem is you really can’t because the main variable in the equation is the scoring of the team, which always varies from year to year due to one influence or another. Maybe there can be a fairer weight standard by using an OPS+-esque formula by comparing the scoring environment of the park to the year average instead of the road performance of the team itself. However, it will still by a dynamic result and not a static one.

    It won’t ever be a perfect formula, but again, measuring it against a normalized performance rather than the relative performance of the team on the road will produce a result that better reflects the scoring environment of the park than comparing home/road performance will. It will still vary from year to year and…

    Why are you all starting at me like that? I dabble in mathematical theory.

  366. Len Says:

    @357 Cameron,

    From what I’ve read and seen in interviews with George Lucas the name change from “Revenge” to “Return” was a philosophical decision about the Jedi code. Lucas felt that that a motive of Vengeance would contradictory to the Jedi code.

    I actually think this cost them money rather than saved them any money because early promotional merchandise had to be recalled and re-designed.

  367. Len Says:

    @362 Chuck,

    You make very some good points.

    I was reading an article recently about the dangers of shows like “The Biggest Loser” which have their participants go on these crazy and intense physical programs while basically starving them at the same time. The article went on to say that this procedure isn’t even realistic because there is no way someone can live this lifestyle and all the contestants put the weight back a few weeks/months after the show is over.

  368. Cameron Says:

    Len, Lucas wouldn’t do A New Hope without a merchandising contract. Between that and the fucking Ewoks, don’t tell me that move wasn’t about money.

  369. Bob Says:

    1. Breakfast Bowl of cereal or bowl of oatmeal and a piece or fruit. Genereally, Bananas, apples or oranges. If you live in Oregon, a pear would be solid. Some green tea.

    2. Lunch. 2 tuna fish sandwiches with diced onions. I hate celery, although people tell me it is fine in tuna fish. A gronala bar for dessert. Bottle of water.

    3. Dinner Baked chicken or some good quality fish like trout or salmon. Carmelize onions on the entree. My understanging is mushrooms are healthy, although I detest them. If you like them throw them on the meat. And of course a tossed salad.or steamed spinach or brocoli. And a salad should not be loaded with bacos and croutons. Blue Cheese dressing or even ranch in modest quanities is fine. Again, go with green tea. I have been drinking green tea for the past month or so after reading great things about it, although I still get coffee from Dunkin when I go fishing. Some habits are hard to break.

    A modest regimen of playing Horse and the tread mill 4-5 times a week should work wonders. Chuck, good luck. And I assume you eat fruits and veggies, right?

  370. Chuck Says:

    Gee, thanks Bob.

    I’m not a fan of the “multiple meal” fad.

    Breakfast at 8, lunch at 12, dinner at 4..

    For the longest time I ate twice a day, good breakfast at 7, 8 am and dinner at 3 or four.

    Usually no lunch, and if I did it was small..soup or salad or grilled cheese.

    If balanced, no need to eat any more.

  371. Bob Says:

    Put a tomato in your grilled cheese. Seriously good.

  372. Chuck Says:

    I’m from New England Bob, remember?

    Grilled cheese and tomato is like the official sandwich.

  373. Patrick Says:

    Reading the PF section in B-R, I can see it’s been a work in progress with some changes from 2 years ago. I think the author would be the first one to say there are flaws, as he keeps trying to improve on it and I applaud him for it.

    The thing is, there are a lot of missing variables, such as left and righthanded PF’s. Here’s an example of one, if Derek Jeter were a lefty hitter, he would probably have about 350 HR instead of the 246 he currently has, but his OPS+ is calculated with the same PF as, say LH Curtis Granderson.

    In the Rays’ instance, I understand it’s a home-away differential, but the differences have to be player driven and not enviornment driven for The Trop, which hasn’t changed in any way, to go from 101 PF to 92 PF. to me, that makes OPS+ unreliable.

    I actually enjoy sabermetrics, but when there are missing variables, the results have to be taken with a grain of salt, which is what we used to do before sabermetrics.

  374. Patrick Says:

    Comment Awaiting Moderation again?

  375. Chuck Says:

    Remove the links, Patrick.

    If you post more than two, the site security will stop it.

    Multiple links require multiple posts.

  376. Patrick Says:

    I wrote a fairly long pros/cons about PF/OPS+ and I got that again. Too lazy to repeat it.

    Good luck on your diet Chuck. My diet has been working well for me, Italian cold cut sub with extra meat for lunch and 3 double cheeseburgers/pickles only from BK for dinner with a lot of beer in between meals is a usual day. I think I stay in shape because of the pickles.

  377. Patrick Says:

    Thanks Chuck, got it.

  378. Chuck Says:

    I like yours better

  379. Raul Says:

    The common belief is that good diet and exercise are what you need to do.

    But I’ve read that bodybuilders never try to do both at the same time. They’ll usually load up and hit the weights hard, and then before a competition, spend weeks trying to get ripped.

    That said, when Chuck says in post #362 that:

    “One of the main reasons why loss programs fail so early in the process is the mistake of decreasing caloric intake while SIMULTANEOUSLY increasing physical activity.

    The body doesn’t work that way.

    You can’t expect your body to be able to adjust to a reduced intake while at the same time putting a demand on it for a higher intake due to the exercise.”

    That seems to jive with what I’ve read in the past.

  380. Brautigan Says:

    My best advice for losing weight:

    1) Quit working
    2) Ride your bike

    Well, 1) I can afford to quit working.
    And 2) I don’t live in Phoenix where biking is like riding a rail to hell.

    And last: Vinny Castilla and steroids? No way. I never saw his head grow like Bonds………………

  381. Bob Says:

    Patrick great diet. Also, with all the food talk, I forgot to mention that last night on Antenna TV, I was watching re-runs of WKRP in Cincinatti.
    And the episodde I saw had Sparky Anderson make a legit guest apperance, as opposed to a cameo. Good stuff.

  382. Raul Says:

    Easy for you to say, Braut.

    You have a log cabin, go fishing 5 times a month, and skin baby grizzlies with a bowie knife.

    You’re practically the Brawny paper towel man.

    Level with me, my friend. You still send correspondence with a typewriter and often reminisce about being in “the sh*t” back in ‘Nam.

  383. Patrick Says:

    I’ve been eating like that for about 35 years now so if you hear that I’m dead anytime soon, you should probably try Bob’s menu. A report came out recently that my blood type may thrive on red meat so maybe I got lucky ignoring dietary advice. I’m actually not half bad if you put a bag over my head.

    Start the day with a pot of coffee, no sugar is my preferrence, then immediately switch to beer to offset the caffien jitters. That’s very important.

    Around noon you should be starving, my choice is usually the JJ Gargantuan at Jimmy Johns, but whatever other glutanous thing you can think of should work.

    Then I usually work my ass off for the afternoon in an effort to make 4 hours look like 8 at the end of the day, but it doesn’t matter how you get your intense exercise, you just have to get it. Be sure to drink plenty liquids(beer is good).

    Around 6 or 7, use the back roads and find your way to a Burger King for dinner. Most of your meal should be gone by the time you get home. Cap it off with a couple more beers, brush your teeth and go to bed. There you have it, The Patrick Diet.

  384. Raul Says:

    Atta boy, Patrick.

    And you’re still not as big as Prince Fielder.

  385. Chuck Says:

    #382..that’s awesome.

    For a few years in the ’80’s I pretty much survived on Miller Lite and chicken wings.

    I’m not much of a drinker anymore but can still put a few away, but to this day I can’t eat chicken wings.

  386. Raul Says:

    From 1999-2001, I ate enough Ramen Noodles to last a lifetime. I refuse to touch the stuff now, and the smell alone makes me sick.

    I didn’t even start eating wings until Super Bowl 2009.
    I don’t eat them anymore for 1 reason: It’s impossible to get full on wings.

    I mean 6 wings is probably enough to ruin you diet for the day. But I could eat 50 wings and think nothing of it. I never have. The most I had in one sitting was 20. But it didn’t even make a dent in my hunger.

  387. Raul Says:

    Happy 68th birthday, Manny Sanguillen! How come this guy never won a Gold Glove? He should have snuck in at least one.

    Random Page today: Bill Skowron. I’m not saying Skowron should have been in the HOF or anything, but he probably should have gotten a look at the ML roster in ‘52 and certainly in ‘53. I mean Joe Collins wasn’t that good.

  388. Patrick Says:

    “Braut, you’re practically the Brawny paper towel man.” lol

    Prince and I are both 5′11″ but he’s got me by 90 pounds. He can also hit the ball about 100 feet further than I can.

    My taste aversion food product is Cheetos. I ate a big bag of them when I was a little kid while watching Bob Lanier and St. Bonaventure in the Final Four. Zero Cheetos consumption since.

    Sanguillen was a good player.

  389. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree most all of those dietas are b ad Chuck, but there are a few things you suggest that do not jibe with what I understand the vast majority of nutritionists suggest.

    1) You are talking about not cutting calories & increasing activity at the same time. But at the end of your program post, you suggested starting a program by balancing intake & STATING a physical exercise program. Is that not reducing intake & increasing activity?

    2) Which I do not think is bad, in moderation. Yet you are talking about doing this at a clip of 4 lbs. lost a week. I recall you did somewhat more & doubtless can achieve this. But everything I read says do not do it that fast, ’cause your metabolism slows down, you burn less calories, & you may well lose lean muscle when your body uses it for sustenance. The main argument is when you get back to a maintenance diet, your body burns less calories because it is conditioned-as we are by evolution-to store calories during lean times.

    3) I have heard that fasting also does this, & even a short fast slows down metabolism & you lose muscle. Again, you can lose weight, it is whether it is good for keeping it off.

    4) Raul, you are mixing 2 different things up. You are correct that bodybuilders 1st bulk up, & then try to get ripped while maintaining their mass-to gain muscle & lose fat at the same time is tough even when on PEDs! But they still exercise, a lot, during the intense 6 weeks or so before a competition. They just eat less calories, they do more cardio…

    They may not lift quite as heavy, but they do som,e heavy lifting, they need to maintain their muscle. Also, they eat very often & very high protein, to fuel their body & prevent it falling into a catabolic (breaking down muscle tissue) state. They may keep fat very low, but this generally would keep testosterone levels lower-but if you are using ‘roids, that does not matter.

  390. Raul Says:

    Jim Bowden:

    Cubs should trade Matt Garza to Detroit for 3B Nick Castellanos and RHP Jacob Turner.

    I swear, this man is confusing Playstation with real life.

  391. Cameron Says:

    I hear the Yankees are interested in Garza,

  392. Cameron Says:

    @386 Playing in the era as Johnny Bench will do that to ya.

  393. Mike Felber Says:

    If you can hit the ball about 400′ Patrick, that is clearly further than most. Even if you are having your pitches fully grooved. Though I hope that you are exaggerating about all the substances daily. I too feel better having some meat, though am skeptical if it goes by blood type, i just do not know. I am A +. What types supposedly need meat to thrive?

  394. Cameron Says:

    i don’t know, but I know with my AB+ blood, I’m set if I ever get fucked up in an accident. Grab an IV and stick it in me by body doesn’t give a fuck.

  395. JohnBowen Says:

    “Park factors are the foul territory in Oakland or the LF wall in Fenway or the roof open v. closed in Arizona.

    Day games over night games or wind blowing in or out affect scoring, but they have nothing to do with the “park”.”

    Hey, smart guy…the whole fucking point is to figure out how a player is affected by where he plays half his home games, compared to how he would fair playing elsewhere. That includes all conditions that he has to deal with. They include park, weather, day/night games that his home park plays, everything. You’re being entirely too literal with “park factor.”

    “A team’s HOME park factor is determined 50% by what they do on the ROAD.”


    You figure out how a team will do at the other 14 or so ballparks, and then compare their numbers in those 81 games to the 81 games they play at home to figure out if they’re helped or hurt by playing where they play, and by how much.

    9 Mickey Mantle’s on a team will score 7 runs/game at Petco, and 10 on the road. Therefore, Petco is still pitcher friendly, because even though the 9 Mantles score a ton of runs there, they score a ton more when they play elsewhere.

    9 Yuni Betancourt’s score 3 runs per game at Coors, and 1 run per game on the road. Therefore, Coors is still hitter-friendly, because even though the 9 Betancourt’s scored very few runs there, they scored way fewer when they play elsewhere.

  396. Cameron Says:

    John, what did you think of my idea of comparing the park’s performance to a normalized performance over an equal sample size instead of small sizes of other parks and exclusion of other parks? I think the larger sample size may produce a better result than 81 games of comparison spread over a select few stadiums.

  397. Cameron Says:

    Keep in mind, I was a C student in math, but if you need the equation, I think my proposal looks something like…

    PF = 100*((Home Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/81/((League Average Runs Scored/Game)*81/(League Average Runs Against/Game)*81)/81)

  398. JohnBowen Says:

    “Tropicana Field has a 92 PF this year and last year. 95 in 2010, 98 in ‘09, 101 in ‘08 and averaged about 98 the first 10 years.”

    It’s all relative, Patrick.

    Say you played your home games at Turner Field, and the other teams in the league were playing at Petco Park for some reason. The hitters who play at Turner Field would be HELPED by playing their games at at the most hitter-friendly park in the league.

    Then, the other 15 teams move to Coors to play their home games. Now, the hitters at Turner are HURT by playing all their home games at the most pitcher-friendly park in the league.

    Same park, we’ll even assume same weather, same everything. The relative difference is the important thing. Even though Turner didn’t change, it went from RELATIVELY hitter-friendly to RELATIVELY pitcher-friendly.

    There’ve been like 15 new parks built since the Rays became a franchise, and changes in the conditions that the other parks deal with year to year. So, absolutely things will change.

  399. JohnBowen Says:

    @395, the actual process for computing the park factors used in OPS+ involves a little more complex math and some extra iterations.

    An 81 game sampling should be good enough. I mean, you have to have major extenuating circumstances for it to be way off. Like, if you had 9 Mickey Mantles, but they refused to play in road games. Or something like that…completely unrealistic.

  400. Cameron Says:

    Hang on.

    PF = 100*((Home Runs Scored + Home Runs Against)/81/(((League Average Runs Scored/Game)*81)+((League Average Runs Against/Game)*81)/81)

    There we go. I think. If I could properly map the equation, it’d be a lot clearer, but I only have plain text here.

  401. Chuck Says:

    “You are talking about not cutting calories & increasing activity at the same time. But at the end of your program post, you suggested starting a program by balancing intake & STATING a physical exercise program. Is that not reducing intake & increasing activity?”

    In two weeks.

  402. Cameron Says:

    Well, if it wasn’t 81 games as a multiplier, the equation would be unbalanced. 81 games at home, 81 games of league average play to compare to.

  403. Raul Says:

    Glad to see that Park Factors are the reason Adrian Gonzalez is hitting like a pansy in Fenway.

    Next to Petco, Fenway must be the Grand Canyon.
    After all, he showed more power on the road last year, too.

  404. JohnBowen Says:

    Actually, Cam, if I’m reading your formula right, you could have some of the problems that people seem to be thinking is wrong with park factor…that it could be impacted by the quality of players.

    A team with 5 Jeremy Bonderman’s and 9 Mickey Mantle’s could play at Petco Park and make it look like a hitter’s park…way more runs scored there than at your typical ballpark with that team. Your numerator will be way higher, your denominator about the same.

    It’s when that team goes on the road and plays in games that are even more high scoring where the actual formula makes everything work out.

  405. Chuck Says:


    And you’re perfectly OK with that logic and see no flaws in the formula?

  406. Cameron Says:

    It’s the same numerator as regular Park Factors John, I just changed the denomiminator to a normalized performance.

    Unless I fucked up the equation. I’ve been known to do that.

  407. JohnBowen Says:

    Raul, seriously.

    Are you going to sit there and honestly say that there’s no difference between hitting at Petco Park, and hitting at Fenway? With a straight face?

  408. JohnBowen Says:

    “And you’re perfectly OK with that logic and see no flaws in the formula?”

    Yes, Chuck.

    Please just reason your way through it.

    The Yankees play in 15 other parks this season, and those 15 parks represent your league average playing condition.

    If they score 5.6 runs per games at home and 4.9 on the road, can we pretty safely deduce that playing in the Bronx HELPED THEM?

    It’s called the “effect method” and it’s used by pretty much every industry that does anything anywhere.

  409. Cameron Says:

    None of us are going to say that John, we’re arguing over the methodolgy in measuring it.

  410. JohnBowen Says:

    “It’s the same numerator as regular Park Factors John, I just changed the denomiminator to a normalized performance.”

    Ah, my bad – point still stands though.

    Now it looks like your denominator just looks at typical league marks…so having big boppers and bad pitchers will make an impact in your formula.

    Not so in the actual one.

  411. Cameron Says:

    Hm… Maybe I could find a way to neutralize the performance then. I’ll keep at it.

  412. JohnBowen Says:

    Well, ok…what’s your issue with the formula at hand, Cam?

    If you’re worried about sample, baseball reference also uses multi-year factors.

  413. Cameron Says:

    Not sample, I just want a fairer representation of the park’s environment to that of every other park in the league. As it stands, the park factor formula is taking 81 games spread over 15 or 16 other stadiums and that doesn’t seem like a proper representation of the influence of the home park relative to the league. It’s only relative to half the league under the current formula.

    Just looking for proper relativity here.

  414. Raul Says:

    No one is saying Petco is the same as Fenway.

    What I am saying is that Fenway doesn’t suddenly rise to 5,000 feet above sea level one year, and then drop to 500 feet below sea level the next.

    San Diego doesn’t see 50 degree summers every other year.

    Parks don’t change. Teams change.

    The idea that the Rays see a lower park factor because it’s relative…relative to what? Were a bunch of new AL bandbox stadiums were built in the last 3 years?

    If a player performs 20% worse on the road than at home, you would probably expect that on some level, park factors could explain the difference, but there’s still a gap. And you can’t account for it.

    And just like literally everything else, anything you can’t explain gets marginalized as BS so that you can keep defending a flawed system.

  415. Cameron Says:

    “Parks don’t change.” You know, unless their power hitters suck and turn the contracts into financial tumors so they move the fences in. Lookin’ at you, Mets.

  416. Raul Says:

    Jason Bay is due to return for the Mets.

    Instantly, they’ll be a worse team.

  417. Patrick Says:

    John, I followed up my PF comment with a more even handed pros/cons but it got lost in cyber space. I even gave a compliment to the PF creator and I realize that the new parks may be more hitter friendly which would knock the Trop down a few pegs.

    Still there are flaws aplenty. For instance, no lefty righty PF’s that I know of, so for example, Derek Jeter has the same PF as Robinson Cano, but Cano hits in a more hitter friendly enviornment than Jeter, which in turn, screws Jeter’s OPS+. Tons of examples like this.

    From what I’ve read, PF is a work in progress and I think it’s creator would be the first to say it has flaws and exceptions to the rules. I actually enjoy sabermetrics, but when certain stats have too many variables to accurately quantify, they must be taken with a grain of salt, which is where we were before we had such stats.

    Mike, I’m 54 now. I used to hit the ball a long way for a carpenter, but I can’t hit it close to 400 any longer. I was thinking Prince 480 and I was probably rounding up from 330 to 380. I know I can still hit it out of Palma Sola Park, which I believe has a park factor of 182. lol

    Where I didn’t exagerate is my dietary needs. I’ll eat and drink at least that on most days and always stay between 183-187. Bear in mind, I’m not an alcohlic, beer is just my beverage of choice and I get very thirsty. I’d tell you my blood type but then people may try to harvest my organs before I’m done with them.

  418. Brautigan Says:

    @406. Irony, meet sarcasm.

  419. Brautigan Says:

    “You’re practically the Brawny paper towel man.”

    That has to rank as one of the funnier comments in DC history.

    I didn’t have to go to Nam. My draft number was 156. Two weeks after the draft lottery, they called off the draft. Which was a huge relief. I had just graduated from high school, had no job prospects and only two college offers to play baseball. I wasn’t exactly the top of the exempt line when they called off the draft. So yeah, I was worried. I didn’t want to go into the military, the military hates types like me. I was actively looking at moving to Vancouver, Canada. I had two friends, draft numbers 8 and 11, one joined the Army, the other the Navy. The draft was called off two days after they enlisted, but they did not waste their opportunities and the military was good for them.

    But I also remember older kids I used to see playing in the neigborhood went off to Nam and didn’t return. Or if they did return, they had this 1,000 yard stare. And if they didn’t have the 1,000 yard stare, they were bat shit crazy drunk or stoned all the time. There was a reason the world changed in the 60’s.

  420. Brautigan Says:

    “I used to hit the ball a long way for a carpenter, but I can’t hit it close to 400 any longer.”

    I would be challenged to hit one out of a little league park now. (And I’m in good shape)

  421. Cameron Says:

    I used to have power when I was playing in little league. …I also made Mark Reynolds look like Rod Carew.

  422. Mike Felber Says:

    Prince 480 may be about right-under neutral conditions, no wind & at sea level.

    You weight is decent, better if you have some muscle. Though a lot of caffeine & especially alcohol is very bad for you, especially using them as mild uppers & downers. There is a lot of evidence that in small amounts drinking is better than not even-up to 2 standard drinks a day for a man who is not small, up to 1 for a woman. More is harmful.

    I have baby tastes, do not like drinking, coffee, any substances…though i have a sweet tooth, & am about 10% overweight. I try not to lose too much weight before my arts festival, ’cause I get real busy & stop eating much & end up lifting little. This year I just lost less, but some, muscle & fat.

    The scale at the gym is whack/under weighs folks, but I bet I am in the mid 220’s without clothes. I would be fairly lean at 200. But I am content to stay around the same & just add back a little strength.

    But there is no question that a smaller waist would be better for me. Some folks assume if you have some upper body bulk you are fit, but that does not reflect overall condition or body fat.

  423. Chuck Says:

    First few picks starting to solidify.

    Houston: Mark Appel
    Minn: Byron Buxton
    Sea:Carlos Correa
    Bal: Kevin Gausman
    KC Kyle Zimmer
    Cubs: Albert Almora
    SD: Max Fried
    Pitt: David Dahl

    After Pitt things are starting to muddle, Mike Zunino is dropping, Courtney Hawkins is rising. Looks like Deven Marrero to Cincinnati, which means Gavin Cecchini to the Mets.

  424. Cameron Says:

    Funny, is a bit more… Cracktastic. They have Zunino going third and Corea falling all the way to San fucking Diego.

  425. Raul Says:

    Albert Almora
    Max Fried
    David Dahl

    These are not the names of baseball players. These are the names of chemists, or possibly classical composers.

  426. Cameron Says:

    RIP Pedro Borbon

  427. Chuck Says:

    Zunino may drop out of the top ten altogether, although I don’t think he gets past Oakland at 11.

    Almora and Correa..two Puerto Ricans in the top ten for the first time ever…hopefully baseball there is on the way back.

  428. Cameron Says:

    Keep in mind the source, Chuck. is great with covering the players already there. When they’re dealing with prospects, they’re about as clueless as Keith Law.

  429. Chuck Says:

    Dates change..was it from today, or March?


  430. Cameron Says:

    Today. Front page, first article.

  431. Chuck Says:

    Draft starts in 50 minutes..I have the recorder on.

    I have to make a couple of stops on the way home in addition to the normal 35 minute drive, plus dinner and whatever I probably won’t start watching til 5-5:30 my time.

    No computer, no texts, no phone, just want to watch how things unfold without bias.

  432. JohnBowen Says:

    Patrick: “For instance, no lefty righty PF’s that I know of”

    This is actually a fair point. Seems like it would be a doable adjustment. OPS_LHH/OPS_RHH and then apply that or its recipricle, depending on the handedness of the batter you’re dealing with (pro-rated for switch-hitters).

  433. Cameron Says:

    Eh, OPS seems like a bad stat to use. Figures walks into the equation, and walks aren’t influenced by the park. Can’t figure what to put in, though. Slugging percentage, maybe?

  434. Cameron Says:

    And the Astros choose first overall…

    Carlos Corea, the shortstop from Puerto Rico.

    …Wait, WHAT!?

  435. Cameron Says:

    For those of you who don’t remember, the last HS SS drafted overall was Tim Beckham.

  436. Cameron Says:

    Dear god, if Mark Appel slides past this next pick…

  437. Cameron Says:

    NO! FUCKING! WAY! Mark Appel fell to fifth? KC! SIGN HIM NOW!

  438. John Says:

    Patrick, I’ll moderate your comment even if it puts me in my place. Be a few hours though.

  439. Cameron Says:

    I don’t get it… Zimmer? There has to be major signability issues with Appel to cause him to fall past us.

  440. Cameron Says:

    You know what? Wild guess here, Pittsburgh takes Appel for a future rotation of Taillon-Cole-Appel. Mix and match all you want, that’s still a scary thought.

  441. Cameron Says:

    Yep, Mark is a Pirate. The #1 rated pitcher three years running now. Impressive.

  442. Cameron Says:

    Cory Seager has a VERY nice swing. He seems a little lax at the platem but with one flick of his wrists he has a blink-and-miss speed in getting his bat through the strike zone. Not a lot of power, but he’s gonna be able to lace a lot of balls over the infield with that swing.

  443. Patrick Says:

    @437 No John, it didn’t put you in your place, more like meet you in the middle.

    @431 I think that would be a big help to add LH/RH PF’s and Jeter, Winfield, Munson and DiMaggio would take a huge leap forward. The new problem would be that it would diminish switch hitters. It would probably indicate that switch hitters had an optimum advantage at all times, and be negtatively adjusted in that manner. Learning to switch hit on the ML level is probably the ultimate baseball accomplishment so I’d have to say that variable would need addressing.

    @421 I probably do drink too much but I’m actually in pretty good shape. I’ve worked out my entire life and even though I’ve had some bad injuries and some arthritis in my left knee, I’m good.

  444. Patrick Says:

    Cameron, if you meant Kyle Seager, I agree. He’s a pure hitter. Seattle has a few interesting young hitters. Saunders is coming on strong after being completely lost for awhile. Carp is doing crap, but has some ability. Smoak, Ackley and Montero will all improve. Liddi has some pop too. They have some arms coming up too. Not bad.

  445. Cameron Says:

    No Patrick, his younger brother Cory, he was drafted to the Dodgers tonight.

  446. Mike Felber Says:

    How bad is drinking too much is a question I have always been against the dependency some have to feel up, calm down, get pleasure, be social…with drugs. From coffee to alcohol & drugs. Almost always folks also use them to avoid dealing fully with difficult feelings, often situations. Easy for me to say, I just have no attraction to those things. But it remains so.

  447. JohnBowen Says:

    “Learning to switch hit on the ML level is probably the ultimate baseball accomplishment so I’d have to say that variable would need addressing.”

    The way I see it, it’s all about ratio’s.

    Say you hit lefty for 3/4 of your PA’s and righty for 1/4.

    And your park’s lefty-right “adjustment” is 110, meaning that it favors lefty’s over righty’s by a factor of 1.1 to 1.

    Then factor you get as a switch hitter should be like 102 or something. I dunno. I can hammer this out later.

  448. Patrick Says:

    Thanks Cameron, I just saw that. I guess they can both hit! Hossrex will be happy if Cory is anything like Kyle.

    Mike, I’m well into the back nine, I’ve raised 2 successful kids, beautiful wife of 30 years, I’ve never hurt anyone. I don’t over analyze things like enjoying a beer or six. Using the golf anology, I’m probably on the 17th hole of work. I really don’t have any difficult feelings to hide from, but I understand my liver can only handle a finite amount of abuse. I’m not there yet, but that’s the danger to me, nothing else, but that’s probably enough.

  449. Patrick Says:

    @447 honestly, we’re talking about a small percentage of switch hitters so it’s a nitpick, as long as switch hitters get credit for learning the art and not demerits for having an unfair advantage.

    Regardless, a lefty-righty rating is an obvious step in the right direction. That would change virtually everyone’s OPS+, which is why you have to currently take them with a grain of salt.

  450. Patrick Says:

    Cameron, on cue, Kyle Seager homers in the 1st. Number 7. G’nite.

  451. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not question your intelligence, success or competency Patrick. At your age the odds are that you have entered the back 9, & I am not far behind. Though without overusing substances you should not be near the end game. If you do not use to aoid difficult feelings, you are unusual. But you would be virtually unique if you did not use to feel better. I humbly say that is not a fully awake & present way to live.

    Though you may exceed me in many precincts of life. Nobody though finally gives up addictions & says “jeez, i wish I was still relying on those things to get through the day/feel stimulated/for excitement/for calm…

    Raul, & maybe Cameron, & those slightly my senior will particularly enjoy this. The old fashioned 50’s/60’s stock footage is used to charming effect to make points difficult to dispute.

  452. Cameron Says:

    From’s review of the draft…

    “Prep players dominated the night, and seven of the top 13 selections were high school hitters.”

    Holy shit, RED! FLAG!

  453. Patrick Says:

    Thanks for the council Mike. I didn’t mean to imply I was going anywhere soon, I was just saying that most of my goals are behind me. At this point, I’m starting to think I’m not going to make the Majors(lol), but grandkids would be cool. Maybe some unexplored guitar goals. If I had any difficult thoughts to escape they would be about the Crisis of Civilization, but I’ve known that was coming for years. Don’t let it bring you down, it’s only castles burning.

    I’ve been meaning to ask you something. A couple years ago, I responded to a Hoss post by putting a picture of a guy with his head up his ass. I know your brother writes for Bill Maher. Well, I see Maher gives out an award of a statue that has it’s head up his ass to the dumbest state. The statue is exactly like the picture, which in itself is not that remarkable because there is probably only one way to insert your head in your ass, but I’m convinced that you got that from the picture and sent it to your bro. My wife thinks I’m nuts. Am I off base here?

    Anyway, 2 coffees, no beer and off to work in your honor Mike!

  454. Brautigan Says:

    I switched to hitting left handed when I was 11. I regret not having stayed with hitting right handed (in other words, I regret not being a switch hitter). I had more power right handed, a lot more power, but I could see the ball better as a left handed hitter and I had significantly more contact as a left handed hitter. The reason why I regret not hitting right handed hitters as I progressed from little league to Babe Ruth to American Legion to college, I had more difficulty hitting left handed pitchers (obviously, as I climbed the ladder, the pitching improved as well), especially those with a good breaking ball. I sacrificed power, but I rarely struck out and I got on base a lot.

  455. Bob Says:

    Bill Maher owns a portion of the Mets.

  456. Chuck Says:


    Zimmer’s the best pitcher in the draft, Cameron, he was the Royals guy all along. There were 12-15 guys that could have easily gone in the top ten, but there was only one potential top ten guy who could have fallen outside.


    I believe I said that very thing here the other day.

    The Mariners hooked up a TV in the dugout during the draft, and Seager was sitting there during BP watching his brother get drafted. Then went out during the game and hit a bomb. Pretty cool.

    #452. “Worst collection of college position players of the last 25 years, maybe ever”. And, no, there is no red flag over high school hitters. The six best players in the history of the draft by WAR are high school hitters. High school pitchers? OK, with you there, but I’m drafting high school hitters all day long.

    “Almost always folks also use them to avoid dealing fully with difficult feelings, often situations. Easy for me to say, I just have no attraction to those things.”

    There are no words to describe how full of shit you are, Mike, you hypocritical jackass. You have just as many skeletons in your closet as Patrick or I, and if we like to have a drink or two, or watch porn every day or whatever it is, YOU are not qualified to give US life advice.

    You are walking a very fine line, careful it doesn’t break.

    I taught myself how to switch-hit around the same age, Braut. I was pretty small as a kid and not a very good hitter. My first couple of years of Little League I was a bench player and would routinely get my one mandatory AB per game and that was that. I could hit lefty better than righty almost immediately, and started to get more and more playing time until not only being a starting player but someone who usually got selected for traveling tournament teams if mine didn’t make it. I switch hit full time for five years or so, the longer I did it the worse I got from the right (natural) side.

    As a high school/amateur player you really don’t see that many lefties throughout a season, at least I didn’t. Counting high school, summer ball and whatever other small opportunities came up, I probably played 50 games a year in the Northeast.

    If you figure 200 PA’s a year, if I had 40 or so against a lefty that was a lot.

    I think it was the summer between my junior and senior year when I finally gave it up.
    Ultimately, I ended up hitting lefties better lefty than I did righty because I could read breaking balls better. I’m right eye dominant and even though I used glasses my whole life, I just saw the ball better lefthanded.

    If I could go back and do it again, once I had the success hitting lefty I did, I would have quit hitting righty altogether. Six years of wasted lefty opportunities could have made a difference.

  457. Chuck Says:

    Number of mocks in the draft database: 55

    Number that had Correa going first overall: 0

    This is why I don’t do mocks…NO ONE has enough information to know for certain who is taking whom where.

    It’s a 100% guessing game.

    There are better odds on winning a $200 million lottery than on picking the first round exactly.

  458. Cameron Says:

    @456 You also said Zunino could fall out of the top 10.

  459. Mike Felber Says:

    You are calling me names & angry for no reason whatsoever Chuck. 1st, I am not hypocritical, that would indicate that I do not practice what i preach, in this case, abused or overused substances. 2nd, you would not know if I have skeletons in my closet, you do not know if Patrick or other shere have skeletons in their closet, or many or large ones. And someone being open about using is not skeleton-like at all. PLUS I modestly & truthfully said Patrick may exceed me in many aspects of life-you are the only one saying things you do not know about at all.

    AND you have given advice about things often, like diet/fatness & cooking. I realize that using substances can be a sensitive matter-so i said it briefly in a respectful way, & Patrick did not object in the slightest way. No reason to you have.

    Sometimes I have watched pron many days in a row, sometimes not for a while. Like anything else, it is whether the conduct is intrinsically harmful-a drink or two a day seems GOOD for you if normal strength-& if there is a dependency involved. And if there are negative repercussions to conduct, like if someone is whacking off instead of doing other healthy social things-including but not limited to finding a partner.

    Patrick, I am not sure what you mean. You did the picture thing-but that “I got that from the picture & sent it to my bro”? I did not get or use any image like that-now that I am writing I realize you must mean that I sent it to him & the show used it! No, realize that this is not such an unusual idea, the photo was likely floating around many places too…

    I watched Tyson vs. Holyfield & the cannibal act. Though many say how Holyfield could be a dirty fighter…Anyway, was at the home of a friend & then GF. Right after the event, I quipped that Tyson was likely confused that Holyfield was “The Real Meal”. Then not long after I heard them say it after the fight.

    Things like that are bound to occur to many-I thought I made up “frienemy”, then heard it was in the dictionary! But my brother almost certainly DID have an idea stolen for him, since it was soi specific, & I paid for the evidence/tape for him to pursue it legally, but he dragged his feet until it was too late.

    Which is a relevant tableaux for this web site. Big stadium, a cloud of dust after a )presumably m ajor league) play. The manager comes raging out of the dugout, gets nose to nose with the umpire, screaming, kicking up dirt, perhaps chest bumping…But it is all for show, the camera pans in & they are shouting about things like having the wife & kids over for dinner, what they will eat…

    My brother had performed that in Hell’s Kitchen a long while back, at The West Bank Cafe. THAT was almost certainly not a case of “convergent evolution”/

  460. Chuck Says:


    No, I repeated what Law and Piliere were saying on their chats yesterday. Zunino was the Mariner’s guy all along, the only way they don’t take him is if Minnesota did.

    I’ve spent the better part of the last three hours reading through their chats (along with Mayo, Sickels, Goldstein, etc) and the post-draft entertainment value is downright hilarious.

    “Wow, didn’t see that coming.”

    No shit, genius. You’re fucking media. Or worse, a loser who has nothing else to do but sit around trying to bullshit your way into making people think you know what the fuck you’re talking about.

    What is your job? To talk. So, your Astros “source” tells you they’re going Correa, what are you going to do? Tell everyone, right?

    WORST possible thing that can happen is for that to get out before the draft, even if it’s “unconfirmed”.

    Jeff Luhnow said the Astros decided on Correa two weeks ago, yet all those hacks kept saying Appel?

    Why? Because the only information they get is from each other.

    Those guys could all stand naked in a locker room together and couldn’t find each others dick.

  461. Chuck Says:

    Get over yourself, Mike.

    Everyone has skeletons in their closet.

    “AND you have given advice about things often, like diet/fatness & cooking.”

    Because I’m an expert in the field?

  462. Mike Felber Says:

    I showed no ego, inappropriate comments, immodesty, nor did Patrick object. Your assessment of hypocrisy was utterly incorrect-that would involve specific differences between what practices & preaches, not whether someone has a sketeton in their closet.

    but you have no substantive way to object to this argument-Idiot Savant-see putting down the self is OK-so you focus on a tangential matter. So i will bite if you like. Most, not all, have “skeletons” in their closet. Those who do not may or may not have significant issues-they may just have been open about them. But it is really besides the point, because the whole thing here was what folks are freely admitting.

    And there would have been nothing wrong with giving advice about things you are not, or do not consider yourself, to be expert in. It is how you do it, the spirit behind it, whether the case holds water, & the reception. None of these aspects in what I wrote recently was ill considered nor suspect in intent.

  463. Chuck Says:

    Kevin Gausman to Baltimore may have been the biggest lock of the first round.

    Keith Law: “Orioles likely to go with Fried here”

    Commenter: “Keith Law couldn’t find his butt with both hands”

    By all accounts, pitcher Ty Hensley was considered a bottom first round, supp pick

    Frankie Piliere: “Rockies all over Hensley at #10.

    Commenter: “Piliere sleeps with a Keith Law blow up doll”.

    Hensley went #29 to the Yankees.

    I can’t make this stuff up.

    I have a lot to do today but this shit is just too good to walk away from.

  464. Cameron Says:

    It was fun to watch Mayo fuck every call up live during the draft. …To be fair, I fucked up as many calls.

  465. Chuck Says:

    Indirectly, Mayo is my “boss” now, but you’re right.

    (Read the last paragraph..I made mention to Correa possibly going to Houston). I can’t take credit for the pick, but I’m patting myself on the back for at least considering it.

    You’re right, Cam, listening to them talk for five minutes about Player A then watching them backtrack after Player B got picked was entertaining.

    Say what you want about Harold Reynolds, but the guy obviously did his homework and was right more than Mayo was.

    I wonder why?

  466. Chuck Says:

    “To be fair, I fucked up as many calls.”

    “I don’t get it… Zimmer? ”


  467. Cameron Says:

    I wanted Appel when he started to slide. Zimmer may have the higher ceiling, but Appel was the safer bet. And given how bad KC tends to be with high-ceiling pitchers, can you really blame me?

  468. Chuck Says:

    “Zimmer may have the higher ceiling, but Appel was the safer bet”

    You realize that’s a contradiction, right?

  469. Cameron Says:

    Not really. It’s the height of a ceiling versus how likely they are to be productive. Zimmer is a big, hard-throwing righty. Appel had better stuff though. And less injury history. More polish, closer to the majors.

  470. Chuck Says:

    Now you’re just reaching.

  471. Cameron Says:

    Eh, you can’t really go wrong with either guy. And really, a big, tall righty whose fastball sits at 97? I’ll take it an day of the week.

  472. Chuck Says:

    Zimmer, 6′3″, 210 FB average 93, touches 97

    Appel, 6′4″, 195, FB average 94, touches 97.

  473. Patrick Says:

    I’m sorry I didn’t stick with switch hitting to, well, none of my coaches would let me hit lefty in a game, so maybe there was a good reason why I didn’t stick to it. I could see the ball better from the left side but my approach was Roy White-like, with the bat low. It probably wasn’t pretty but I had good power from that side but I could only pull the ball. I can’t even remember hitting a ball the other way LHed.

    Chuck, I don’t care that Mike has an opinion about my deviant beer drinking. I have a couple psychologist friends who learn that there is a specific rule book on how to live and act, like 2 drinks is fine, 3 you’re a substance abuser. They’ve actually blamed me for their drinking saying I’m an “enabler”. It can piss you off but I’ve heard the spiel enough to not let it bother me.

    Mike, you wrote a couple things that can be considered offensively preachy, such as “I humbly say that is not a fully awake & present way to live” or referring to a beer drinker as a user, dependent and substance abuser. Putting humbly in front of your sentence usually means that you know your comment probably isn’t humble. I wrote my diet because I thought it was funny and that it works well for me, I didn’t expect to debate it to any degree. You are right though when you tell Chuck that I don’t have a problem with what you wrote. The end.

    PS; Now that I spilled the beans about my bad habits, I’m pretty sure nobody would want my organs, so I guess I can tell you that it’s O- that may thrive on red meat. BACK TO BASEBALL.

  474. Cameron Says:

    Funny thing, I’ve run every bit of the spectrum as a hitter. I’m a natural righty and when I used to play back when I was a kid, I hit righty. When I started getting really back into baseball but was long past the point of being able to play, hitting righty didn’t feel right anymore, like I was swinging against my body, so I experimented with switch hitting. Now I hit completely lefty.

    I also used to have a lot more power and less bat control. So I changed from a right-handed power hitter to a left-handed slap hitter. It’s weird.

  475. Bob Says:

    Actually, Patrick, your liver could be an improvement on mine. Don’t sell yourself short.

  476. Patrick Says:

    Lol Bob, one man’s garbage is another man’s treasure! I better lock the doors.

  477. Cameron Says:

    My liver is probably suffering more than it should be for a non-drinker. High-fat diet.

  478. Chuck Says:

    Mike’s like the televangelist that does a two hour sermon on the sanctity of marriage then goes back to his office and bangs his secretary.

    I wish I can eat a cheeseburger and drink three or four beers everyday.

    Replying to Patrick was strictly out of jealousy.

  479. Cameron Says:

    So… Mike is Jim Bakker?

  480. Chuck Says:

    I spent almost six years as a bar owner.

    I remember more of my childhood in the early ’60’s than I do between 1983-1987.

    I drank in a day what Patrick drinks in a week.

    Multiply that by 365 then by five.

  481. Bob Says:

    Which begs the question, where is Jessica Hahn?

  482. Chuck Says:

    LOL, Cam, I remembered him as I was writing the comment.

  483. Bob Says:

    Too bad it was not a strip joint. Or was it?

  484. Chuck Says:

    Through seven rounds, the Royals have drafted 2 RHP’s, 2 LHP’s, a SS, a C, and an OF.

    Two of the pitchers (one of each) and the catcher are high schoolers.

  485. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox have drafted only pitchers since Marrero. Unreal.

  486. Chuck Says:

    No, Bob, it wasn’t.

    I was a sports bar with a dining room and a catering room in the back.

    The bar supported the restaurant but was having some problems, so I bought the catering business, which made me 33% partner in the whole process.

    My salary was paid off the catering, but I got a percentage of the other stuff, just like the others did. It was a great experience but it unfortunately didn’t end well, but luckily for me my uncle owned the building and land the business was on, so I had advance notice of what he was going to do.

    So, I sold out, and was the only one to walk away with his reputation and dignity intact. (A nice profit helped, too, but money can’t buy respect, so irrelevant in the big picture).

  487. Patrick Says:

    Sorry Chuck. I should be more sensitive. I’m sure I’ll pay for it someday.

    I get to see 3 parks that I’ve never seen this summer, Petco, Millers and Wrigley.

  488. Chuck Says:

    Deven Marrero has two brothers named Chris.

    One is Christopher, the other Christian.

    And they are both professional baseball players.

  489. Chuck Says:

    When you going to San Diego? I’ll be there in July.

  490. Bob Says:

    Patrick, you should have a great time at Wrigley. Chicago is a great city.

  491. Chuck Says:

    Wait, Bob..what?

    Marrero’s the only non-pitcher they’ve picked through eight rounds.

  492. Cameron Says:

    You think that’s nuts? This year was the first time the A’s drafted a high-schooler in the first round since 2001.

  493. Bob Says:


  494. Chuck Says:

    John Hart during the discussion of the A’s pick;

    “Moneyball is dead.”

  495. Cameron Says:

    So are the A’s.

  496. Chuck Says:

    Sorry, Bob..misread your comment.

  497. Bob Says:

    1. Brian Johnson
    2. Pat Light
    3. Jamie Callahan
    4. Austin Maddux
    5. Ty Buttrey
    6. Mike Augliera
    7.Justin Haley
    8. Kyle Kraus

  498. Bob Says:

    No problem.

  499. Chuck Says:

    BTW, AZMLA President Lou Klimchock’s grandson Mitch Nay went in the comp round (#65) to the Blue Jays.

  500. Bob Says:

    I heard the name and instantly thought of Milt May.

  501. Bob Says:

    There we go. The Sox drafted a 1bman.

  502. Patrick Says:

    SD this month and CHI/MIL in August. SD is a vacation and we may catch a Dodgers game too. Chicago is a wedding then a short vacation. I love Chicago, I just haven’t been there when the Cubs were home. I think 2 days later we have Brewer tix. We’re looking forward to it.

    These last few years, my wife has become a baseball fan and now she loves to go to the games. Go figure? We’ve been to 6 Rays games, already a new season record!

    I hesitate to add this, but the Chicago italian beef sandwiches are worth the trip alone. I’m sure I’m not telling some of you anything new. They’re served with a big Italian sausage on the bottom of the roll, grilled to perfection. Add the hot peppers and the aus jus, and yes, a big beer chaser, and it’s as good as it gets. See Chuck, I can’t stop myself. I’m not a good person.

  503. Patrick Says:

    @494 Really? I’m surprised it took this long for another GM to call bullshit. Have the A’s draft picks been bad or was he speaking in general terms?

  504. Cameron Says:

    Probably the draft strategy, Patrick. A lot of the “more polished college hitters” they’ve been targeting look like Travis Buck and Daric Barton than you know… Baseball players.

  505. Patrick Says:

    Right, players they can get to the show in a hurry and have a plethora of .220 hitters. Their record defies their stats, even though it’s bad, it’s a lot better than it should be.

    Cespedes on the other hand, may be a good player. He has flashes. He reminds me of Jose Guillen. Guillen was 20 the first time I saw him at spring training. I thought he was going to be a HOFer. He ended up pretty good but his tools were off the charts.

  506. Cameron Says:

    Oh god, don’t remind a Royals fan of Jose fucking Guillen.

  507. Patrick Says:

    You know, as soon as I hit send, it dawned on me who I was chatting with. lol He was bad for the Rays too. He just didn’t understand the game, at least not like a major leaguer.

    At McKecknie Field, the Pirates’ spring home, he made a Clemente type throw and then followed it up with a 430′ bomb. I was tarnished by that event. lol

  508. Chuck Says:

    Once Cespedes realizes they drug test in the major leagues and throw curve balls, he’ll be house shopping in Sacramento.

  509. Cameron Says:

    It wasn’t just he was bad. It wasn’t just that he was vastly overpaid. The dude was an absolute asshat to kc and hated it here… Right until that last year of his contract and he started to soften up Still felt like too little too late.

    Then we traded him and I was happy.

  510. Chuck Says:

    Interesting segway.

    The A’s philosophy of drafting high OBP/low everything else college players has been a monumental failure.

    Now they just sign them out of Cuba.

    It’s hard to feel sorry for someone who shit their own bed, but Beane really dicked himself.

    I can understand why he’d invest in ownership stock with the A’s, but they’re essentially worthless now.

    So, he can’t quit his GM job for another one until he sells his ownership stake, and he can’t sell his ownership stake because everyone knows it’s a bad investment. Plus, he’d lose his ass anyway. So even if Oakland was moving to San Jose and there was value in his stake, it wouldn’t touch what he paid for it.

    Should have told Braut when he was down there last month to watch for jumpers on the bridge, maybe he could have gotten Beane’s autograph before he went swimmming.

  511. Patrick Says:

    @508 I said he reminded me of Guillen!

  512. Chuck Says:

    LOL..I can see it now.

    Braut and his buddies are driving over the Golden Gate and see Beane hanging over the edge with a bottle of Jack in his hand.

    The stop the car, run across four lanes of traffic and ask him for his autograph.

    Then run back and get in the car and drive off.

  513. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, Beane may be bad, but I think Lew Wolff may be just as responsible for tanking the team. Since he gutted the team, they’ve made no effort to put anything other than a shoestring budget on the team.

    And Oakland fans sell out fucking Golden State Warrior games and Raider games. It’s pretty obvious they don’t give a shit about quality. If you can’t get an Oakland fan to watch an Oakland team, you done fucked up.

  514. Patrick Says:

    I was looking at the A’s roster and it dawned on me that nothing has changed. They are like the old Kansas City A’s. A farm team that has a big league schedule. If we give you Maris, we will need some spending money and Bob Cerv because Mickey Mantle says he’s a good drinking bud.

  515. Patrick Says:

    LOL @ 512

  516. Bob Says:

    Tommy LaSorda had a heart attack. Raul, you are in California. You have any more info than that?

  517. Cameron Says:

    I just ran a check of the newswire Bob. It was only a mild heart attack that happened last night. Joe Torre came in to check on him this morning and the guy was looking great. Hospital pretty much just has him on bed rest.

  518. Patrick Says:

    Tommy is one of the good guys, hope he’s ok.

  519. Bob Says:

    Daniel Bard was sent to the minors. Have a good night.

  520. Raul Says:

    It’s been a busy work day. I don’t know anything about LaSorda.
    Word is: it was a mild heart attack.

    But candidly speaking, Tommy LaSorda was never the model for health and fitness, and he is 84 years old. All due respect and I wish him the best, but he’s not one you’d bet to last another 10 years.

    I do think LaSorda was a tremendous ambassador for the game. Great passion and knew the game very well. The day he goes will be a dark day in baseball, indeed.

  521. Mike Felber Says:

    So when you have no substantive response to my arguments CHuck, go ahead, just make stuff up.

    We do not really know each other, we could both theoretically be serial killers. Actually, you can never know anything with absolute metaphysical certainty…But you have pointed to zero indication of hypocrisy. Why would I need to lie about not even liking drinking or coffee?

    Patrick, putting humbly in front of a comment usually means the person wants to specify that attitude-& also it is likely the person knows it could come off as preachy. To assume that the person is not honest or deluded about intending humility-there is no reason to conclude such a negative thing, & I know my own attitude.

    Also, I did NOT indicate all who drink beer are dependent &/or substance abusers. I explicitly wrote that research seems to show that alcohol in small qualities is good for folks (addicts excepted). But that more than 2 drinks a day for a guy (unless small or has trouble metabolizing alcohol) is bad. And while these things are matter of degrees, i would say that the more folks drink, or invariably do so, the more they are dependent upon the substance for happiness &/or security. Whether addicts or not.

    And the same goes for any addictive thing. If folks cannot go weeks & months absent, say, porn, there is an addictive quality to it. Now I would not say the same about basic needs like adequate calories, warmth, some sort of sexual release-those are basic needs. I did not know enough re: how much you drink to presume to call you “deviant” anything.

    But those head Dr. f(r)iends blame YOU for enabling their drinking? Only way I can see that as possible is if you know they are an alcoholic, & encourage them to drink. Otherwise, why can they not control their own intake?

  522. Chuck Says:

    We don’t know each other Mike, and no disrespect, but half of what you’ve posted here is made up.

    I guarantee you there is some deep secret in your life that if it became public you’d have to move to Siberia and change your name to Yakov.

    Stop acting like you’re above everybody.

    It’s starting to piss me off.

  523. Cameron Says:

    Great way to subtly call Mike a jackoff Chuck. Gonna have to use that line myself.

  524. Chuck Says:

    Through 15 rounds, the Royals have drafted 8 high school players.

    Good thing for Cameron he lives on the first floor.

  525. Chuck Says:


  526. Patrick Says:

    Mike, I think you are an honest guy. I think you probably practice what you preach. Are you in the pyschology business?

  527. Cameron Says:

    Actually Chuck, my room’s on the second floor.

    And I don’t mind the later round guys being high-schoolers. Odds are you’re taking them to be projects anyway. It’s the guys you try to hinge your future on being projects that I don’t like.

  528. Patrick Says:

    Nate McLouth signed by Orioles. .385 OPS for Pirates this year. What happened to this guy?

  529. Cameron Says:

    He was a Pirate who had a good season. That’s not supposed to happen, so karma decided to balance out that mistake by making him forget how to play baseball.

    …Makes about as much sense as my theory that Barry Bonds’ steroid injections were secretly a government project to fight Godzilla that went south and Bonds was made the fall guy.

  530. Patrick Says:

    McLouth has taken the career path of Joe Charboneau.

  531. Raul Says:

    People ought to be careful about judging another man’s vices; whether it be food, drugs, alcohol or whatever.

    Sometimes the health nut neglects his friends.
    Sometimes the workaholic doesn’t spend time with his wife.
    Sometimes the drinker doesn’t get his work done.

    And sometimes those people do the opposite of all those things.

    The point is, be careful about judging.

    Often times it seems the one pointing the fingers at others is doing so to divert attention from himself.

  532. Chuck Says:

    While I’m on the fence with the benefits of being in a union (In 40 years I had one union job, and it was about three years total), I can see some advantages.

    One of the benefits is being able to dispute demotions, loss of promotion, etc due to incompetent management.

    If I’m Daniel Bard, I’m filing a grievance with the player’s association.

    I’m the eighth inning set-up guy, and I do my job in the upper level of my peers.

    The closer leaves for another team, meaning I’m first in line for a “promotion”.

    Not only do I not get the promotion, the “company” brings in a guy for more much more money and who arguably isn’t any more qualified than I am.

    Then, the new guy gets hurt and is out on disability for a long time, and instead of getting first crack a the job, I’m left in my new position, one which I’m obviously not qualified to do. More importantly, my employer knows this, because they put me in this “setup” role initially because I couldn’t handle the other role in a less demanding area (Pawtucket).

    Now, today, instead of moving back to my old role, or even a less demanding but similar role to work out my issues, I’m being demoted to this less “demanding” area.

    This is what you pay your agent for.

  533. Cameron Says:

    If I’m Bard, I’m demanding a trade to a team that’s competently run.

  534. Raul Says:

    I thought Bard was the main reason Boston didn’t sign Papelbon to an extension years ago.

  535. Chuck Says:

    I met my wife when I was 31 and she was 23.

    We dated two years then got married.

    I just had my 22nd wedding anniversary.

    There are things in my past that if she found out right now I’d be divorced tomorrow.

    I have never lied to her.

    All I said is what I did before I met her is irrelevant to the future.

    Thankfully, she’s smart enough to understand that and never asked.

    And I’ve never asked about her life either.

    The day we met is the day we were born.

    There is no past.

  536. Brautigan Says:

    I’m not asking him for his autograph, but I am taking a pull on that Jack.

  537. Brautigan Says:

    Anyone see where Stetson Allie is now an infielder? Or is it outfielder? Or is it DH?

  538. Raul Says:

    Congratulations on 22 years, Chuck.

    Give me a few minutes…I need to calculate how many Kim Kardashian/Kris Humphries weddings that is….

  539. Raul Says:

    Isn’t “Stetson” one of those cheap colognes you find at a CVS? Like Drakkar?

  540. Patrick Says:

    Just listening to Bard talk, he thinks he sucks. I don’t usually feel sorry for a Redsox guy but Chuck’s point is solid. How does an organization allow this to happen?Not to take anything away, but Aceves is proving that there are a lot of guys that can throw the 9th, but Bard was great in the 8th. What’s wrong with that? You come in when the game is on the line, otherwise, it’s some inning eater. Awesome job to have.

    He started horrible last year but was lights out from June until the end. Now he starts June in the minors, learning how to pitch again. The worst handling of a pitcher since Joba, no, worse than that.

  541. Patrick Says:

    Amen to 531, simple but complete.

  542. Patrick Says:

    Yeah Chuck, congrats! 22 years married is the 7 year itch times pi(7*3.14), in case you were curious.

  543. Patrick Says:

    Pettitte is mowing down the Rays. 8 K’s and 2 hits in 6 IP. He looks great. gnite.

  544. Raul Says:

    Good job by Pettitte.

    No Longoria though. He’s on the DL.
    And no Matt Joyce, who is one of the Rays’ better hitters this year.

    Actually I take that back. Joyce is out because of the lefty-lefty match up.

  545. Jim Says:

    @532 The problem with that rant is that Bard wants to start and lobbied heavily to do so during the off season.

    As good an 8th inning, put the fire out guy that Bard was the last couple of years, in 2011 he had 6 save opportunities and blew 5 of them. No guarantee that he could successfully move into the closers role.

  546. Chuck Says:

    Allie was moved to third.

    He was a 3B, P in college and was a good hitter.

    The Pirates gave him the choice and he chose pitcher.

    Props to both of them for realizing, before it’s too late, that it’s time to move on.

    Shadow behind you, Pedro.

  547. Cameron Says:

    So Pedro Alvarez’s heir replacement was the guy they were relying on to be their closer.

    Pedro Alvarez has to feel like a real cock right now.

  548. Raul Says:

    Alvarez signed a nice contract with the Pirates. I hope he saved a lot of that money.

  549. Raul Says:

    Mets score 1 in the top of the 12th on a Scott Hairston homer.

    Nationals score on Ian Desmond’s double in the bottom of the 12th.

    Tied at 6.

    Bryce Harper singles in the winning run.

    Mets 6
    Nationals 7

  550. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck you assume, with NO reason whatsoever-that I lied about 1/2 of what I wrote. Patrick & most others trust. This attitude of your, & the fact that you get pissed off for no good reason, is solely about your own issues.

    I have lied about nothing I have ever posted here. I try to be scrupulously PRECISE in what i wrote-save I do not care if I have occasional typos. I assume you are not a liar either. If you have any doubt about anything I have ever written, call me out on it. You have trouble admitting when you are wrong, but I doubt you can even show me a plausible reason to doubt a single thing I have ever said.

    Now about judgement, & to tie that into addressing Raul. You have made a slew of irrational judgements, & are quicker than me to judge some guilty-like w/PEDs. Let us unpack that “judge not, lest you be judge” ideal.

    We all make numerous judgements daily, many practical, many moral. Raul, when you show a lot of anger & contempt that is a form of judgement. There are higher & lower aspects of all things. When we are against “judging” we tend to mean those opinions & values that are unnecessarily 1) precipitous, with limited evidence or not knowing extenuating circumstances, & 2) overly negative.

    Condemning judgements is a form of judgement. To be sensible & fair, we must show some discernment. Being for good things, generosity, gentleness, conscience, empathy, intellectual honesty & rigor…are judgements we should make, We also should condemn the opposite, things like cruelty hate prejudice selfishness greed constant anger, etc…

    It is not off base nor presumptuous to “judge” that needing substances to be (a debased & dependent for of being) happy is bad for health & independence & deeper peace of mind. Also, I did not know nor seek to judge how much Patrick uses, & he did not mind what i said!

    Now the “no past” thing…If it works for you Chuck, OK, you are making a judgement that this is either better, or better for you. I would rather be able to know & see the whole person, have mutual acceptance, & it is hard to deny that if mere knowledge of a past would destroy a relationship, that is not complete seeing or acceptance. Which does not mean that all past conduct needs to be at all endorsed.

    Folks sometimes do this to avoid things like the conflict of jealousy. I would prefer that a love be about overcoming the fears, hate, jealousy, & related smaller & darker emotions, not avoiding them because 1 or both could not handle it.

    Not that I expect all to do what I would: I also believe that if you love someone, you absolutely should permit them outside relationships that are safe & healthy, whether platonic, romantic, &/or sexual. Though like so much-though we have overcome much of the racist bias, & are doing so with homophobia-this is especially difficult because we are also CONDITIONED to feel fear & loathing, insecurity & selfish Ego-Need-threats.

    And if you assume I am BSing or that I am saying this because I want to get extra poontang when I am in a relationship-that is assume the lowest possible motivations for me, & that I am lying-then I feel badly that you are so cynical Chuck.

  551. Mike Felber Says:

    Thank you Patrick. No, I took some Psychology in College, was a liberal arts (Anthropology) major, had various Social Work jobs, inc. 2 Foster Care, other Case Management, teaching the Developmentally disabled, in school system as a paraprofessional, like to read about things related to Psychology. Did some activism & service stuff, segued into starting an arts festival for my ‘hood, & in as yet not formally sold arts magazine.

    I went to part of a tribute to Jimi Hendrix concert-not the $50 to 25K dinner, cocktail & concert deal, but hanging out amongst the woods/woodchips outside of it. On the way home, before freeganing, I passed Micky Mantle’s on Central Park South. There were notices on it about bankruptcy & it is under a trusteeship, just dated June 4th. A shame.

  552. Cameron Says:

    I took psych in high school and college and I’ve been in and out of so many psychology and psychiatry offices that I’ve probably picked up more psych knowledge than Mike has.

    And I’m less than half his age.

  553. Mike Felber Says:

    Um OK. I never heard of patients, even for many decades, claiming expertise due to treatment not study, but I am sure you learned many useful things.

    For any of us, the biggest challenge is actually integrating, internalizing & owning real mental health. The cuckoo therapist is an old joke, but folks are much less liars & intentional hypocrites than often way out of touch with their real subconscious motivations, & in denial about their dark & shadow sides. Whether old fashioned prejudice, chronic irritation where we fool ourselves that it is those bad folks that make us miserable, not our own character, or hating the dreaded “other”, maybe another political paradigm that we project all disowned traits upon. Anger, greed & delusion are truly the 3 poisons.

  554. Cameron Says:

    Not from a pure medical standpoint on the psychiatry, Mike, but I have a habit of picking things up from people. That decade or so of therapy, I learned things from them that’s translated into me being able to give advice and play therapist for people. It worked for me, so I redistribute the therapy techniques to effect. So yeah, if you really try, going to therapy can help you learn methodology. You just have to actively try.

    And learning how to help for the autistic… Well, no better way to learn about what they feel than actually having it, y’know?

  555. Mike Felber Says:

    I am sure that this is possible if you are astute & sensitive. Though in an informal role, it would not equate to a Professional degree absent the study, review & testing.

    As long as your family was better than this, there is some hope.

  556. Cameron Says:

    Heh, I’m not a professional. I just ended up being “that guy who usually knows what to do” to my friends. It just comes with the natural craving for learning. Though I do have some classes in it, including a damn good grade in my college psych class. If I ever go back to college, chances are that is gonna be my new major. Honestly, with the way business are trending these days, I’m rethinking my desire to enter the field. Mostly due to administration misconduct. Unless you’re the CEO of a large corporation, you’re kinda fucked in the business world. When you’re a psychologist, you at least see the crazy people coming. =P

  557. Cameron Says:

    And for the record, I’d say that I’m not better than a professional… But Dr. Phil IS a licensed therapist, so I’d be lying.

  558. Mike Felber Says:

    Since you care & empathize along with your experience, I’ll bet you would be very good for folks Cameron.

  559. Chuck Says:

    I don’t think you’re a liar, Mike, and if you believe I called you one, my apologies.

    You may be an “expert” in many things, but baseball and judging your fellow humans aren’t on the list.

    If you believe WAR or OPS+ or whatever to be the best way to judge a player that’s fine, this is a baseball forum and I respect your opinion whether I agree or not.

    Your unsolicited 500 word rants (#550) are fucking annoying; you can make your point in a paragraph, going on and on about nothing is why I’m on blood pressure medication. :)

    I know you’re an honest, up-front guy; you can’t live and work in New York City otherwise, phonies don’t last five minutes there.

    But you can’t possibly have an opinion on everything.

  560. Bob Says:

    Chuck, congrats on your anniversary. Also, good luck fighting your blood pressure. Is Phoenix difficult to hard-core excercise because of the heat? Who was the baseball player who played ( pitched???) with a cabbage leaf on his head to avoid the heat. Would that help?

  561. Bob Says:

    Nobody will answer my easy trivia question?

  562. Chuck Says:

    “Is Phoenix difficult to hard-core excercise because of the heat?”

    Yes, and no.

    I just treadmill inside, if I want to ride my bike or shoot hoops or something, I just get up early and get outside before it really heats up.

    The blood pressure thing is self-induced. Work’s been a hassle for a couple of months and may play a part, but most of it is just no exercise.

  563. Patrick Says:

    Bob, I seem to remember hearing that The Babe would do the cabbage leaf thing. Can’t say I understand how it would help much, but I wouldn’t question Babe Ruth’s methods.

    Exercise: I kayak all over the bays and canals around Tampa Bay. It’s a great upper body workout. I have a 2 seater so sometimes my wife will go with me. I started doing this a few years ago because my left leg is shot to hell due to a Joe Theismann like accident. I can walk and work but I can’t run because it didn’t heal properly. The bone graft didn’t fully take but the rod holds it together.

    I think Braut’s suggestion of riding a bike would be good for a morning workout in Phoenix. The kayak may be a little hard to paddle there. The reason I like excursion exercise is because you can’t quit when your 5 miles from home. :-)

  564. Brautigan Says:

    Bob: I have no idea who pitched with cabbage leaves on his head. But I do recall reading a book on Shoeless Joe Jackson (or was it Harry Hooper?) and on those hot, heavy and humid days of the early years, players would put wet, cold cabbage leaves under their hats to keep their heads cool.

  565. Brautigan Says:

    A friend of mine is a therapist in Honolulu. He partakes in competetive kayaking and loves it. He has been doing it for about 14 years now and never misses a chance to be out on the ocean in his kayak.

    Me? I’ve been biking for 29 years and love every second of it. Makes me feel like a kid over and over and over.

  566. Bob Says:

    Babe Ruth was the first one according to my research. He would put them in a freezer for a bit, then would change the leaf every couple of innings.

  567. Bob Says:

    Patrick, where in Tampa? My parents reside in Clearwater now that they are retired. Although, I do not know Florida all that well.
    I prefer Hilton Head for a vacation hot spot.

  568. Patrick Says:

    I’m in Bradenton, which is on the south side of Tampa Bay, about 70 minutes south of Clearwater. I live close to the mouth of the Manatee River. Hilton Head is nice, you can’t go wrong there but we love it here.

    The problem with living here is it’s hard to find a vacation spot that’s better than home, though Hawaii would do!

  569. Chuck Says: you get over and see the Pirates’ Class A team in Bradenton?

    If you have a chance, get over and watch Jameson Taillon pitch. I think Gerrit Cole is stll there as well.

  570. Chuck Says:

    My wife wants to move to Clearwater..she saw on some 60 Minutes thing it’s one of America’s ten best cities.

    Until we get there, anyway.

  571. Bob Says:

    LOL at Chuck.

  572. Patrick Says:

    I’ve been meaning to see Taillon but I’ve been unavailable most of his starts. If I miss him before he gets promoted I’m going to regret it. I went to a couple Maurauder games last year but none this.

    Traffic is bad in FL but Clearwater is the worst in that regard. It’s a nice place though. I hear Hulk Hogan sold his house, so it probably is a little better than the last time I was there. lol

  573. Bob Says:

    As long as he did not sell it to George the Animal Steele. Who by the way has a masters degree from Central Michigan.

  574. Chuck Says:

    My wife wants to move.

    I didn’t say anything about me.

    I’m not going least not without a substantial raise and or forced retirement.

  575. Patrick Says:

    I saw Hulk about 2 weeks ago riding a motorcycle in downtown Bradenton. He loves attention, you could see how happy he was that everyone was watching him.

    Chuck, I’ve been to AZ and I think you would probably like it here better, it’s only 96 everyday in the summer instead of 111 in AZ! Come on over and cool off!

    Later boys, I’m out for the rest of the day.

  576. Chuck Says:

    111 with 10% humidity

    96 with 96% humidity.

    No thanks, Patrick, I’m good. :)

  577. Bob Says:

    Cal Ripken’s son was just drafted… By the Orioles.

  578. Brautigan Says:

    I’ve been to a baseball game in Fresno. 117 with 58% humidity.

    I’ve been to Dallas. 99 degrees with 98% humidity.

    Dallas felt 20 times hotter.

    I’m with you on that one Chuck.

  579. Raul Says:

    Often times the sons of prominent athletes don’t turn out very well.
    I suspect it’s because they grow up far too comfortable.

    It’s a general truth in sports that the best talent comes from the lowest levels the social/economic ladder.

    Obviously there are exceptions, but the kid in the shack with no electricity tends to have more hunger and works harder to be better than the Prep School star with the trust fund.

    Best of luck to Cal Ripken’s son.

  580. Brautigan Says:

    How are the Mets above .500?

    They have 7 pitchers with the average age of 37.

    They brought Chris Young off the DL to pitch in the rotation. Wouldn’t it have been a better move to bring up Jenrry Mejia instead? You know, the guy that will be there in 5 years vs. the guy who won’t be there in September?

    And doesn’t it seem like a decade that Wilmer Flores has played A ball?

  581. Chuck Says:

    For the third time in less than a year, Brandon Allen has been DFA’d…by his third team.

  582. Raul Says:

    The Mets tried to make Mejia a closer in 2010, because they’re idiots.
    Every team that has a solid prospect in the minors, brings him up to the Majors and then makes him a closer to “limit his innings” are idiots.

  583. Brautigan Says:

    One would think that Milwaukee, with all their problems at 1B, would give Allen a chance to play that position. I mean, Brooks Conrad and Travis Ishikawa?

  584. Cameron Says:

    Ah shit. Not a baseball death, but one of those deaths that I still have to mention because of their work.

    RIP Ray Bradbury

  585. Raul Says:

    Milwaukee, some say, are trying to get Todd Helton.

    Problem for them is, they aren’t 1 player away from seriously contending for a title. So why even bother trying to get a top-flight 1B?

    They’ll go dumpster diving for guys like Helton. In reality, they should probably be selling.

    Cory Hart is gone after next year. Rickie Weeks is about as durable as peanut brittle. Greinke will probably leave. Randy Wolf is just about done. Marcum? He’s a decent starter who is 30 years old, will hit FA and is going to want to be paid. Is Milwaukee going to give Greinke 100+ million AND give Marcum his money? (I imagine Marcum will ask for 60-70 million).

    Face the facts. That team isn’t ready or anywhere near a World Series push. Their only hope is to get hot, take that 2nd Wild Card spot and do some combination of prayer and Indian rain dance.

    They got nothing.

  586. Cameron Says:

    Greinke has a better chance of staying in Milwaukee than you think Raul. He gets majorly freaked-out by media pressure due to his GAD, so he’s on record saying that he doesn’t want to play for any big market teams, AKA, the guys who’d give him seven figures. If Milwaukee can match or beat the rest of the second-tier payrolls, they can keep him.

  587. Mike Felber Says:

    The widely derided politician’s style non-apology would be perfectly appropriate Chuck-if it was my misunderstanding that led me to believe that you called me a liar. But anyone here will tell you otherwise. You wrote in post #522.

    “We don’t know each other Mike, and no disrespect, but half of what you’ve posted here is made up”.

    There is no way those words can be interpreted as you even INTENDING to say I am wrong about thing. Instead that I invent (i.e., lie, unless you meant to say I do not know the e=difference between reality & fantasy).

    I am not being very strict here. I am not claiming your blood pressure thing a lie, since you used a friendly icon in the post, & though you acknowledged it was false soon afterwards, that can be taken as a jest.

    But you are a great example of somebody who will not face their own issues. There is nobody here or anyone sane who would not say you called me a liar. I am not calling YOU a liar about denying the accusation only bec ause I am taking the more charitable & scientifically supportable argument that you, like so many, are deluded about your own nature &/or actions.

    You have not shown anything I wrote in 550 to be “about nothing”. Agree or not, there is indisputably much substance there. SO you are deluded about being :”respectful” about my opinions. You can say you are intermittently respectful of my opinions.

    You would say all the folks who manifestly have tons of baseball knowledge do not, since you are married to the extreme position that SM has no value whatsoever. So Bill James knows nothing about baseball, yet you respect the right to disagree. Even I am not that naive.

    Your comment about my own (you make plenty) ability to judge people is again a premise asserted absent evidence.

    Lastly, you are too generous, or ironically naive, about phonies in NYC. Like any other area, there are folks of all descriptions here. Any big demographic will have folks exploiting all vocational & personal niches, & the biggest population, a magnet for all types by far cannot avoid having all represented.There are always some folks who are scam artists, or just poseurs.

  588. Bob Says:

    Carl’s grandson Mike was just selected by the Mariners.

  589. Raul Says:

    Greinke isn’t going to New York, but what you fail to acknowledge is that New York doesn’t want him anyway.

    But I don’t see any way that Greinke takes a deal for less than Weaver took in Anaheim.

  590. Cameron Says:

    Not just New York. LA, Chicago, pretty sure the media scrutiny in Miami would scare him off. There’s a good handful of teams he won’t go to. Can someone still outbid him? Yeah, probably. A team like the Rockies could offer him a Tulo-eque megadeal, but a bunch of high-payroll teams are still gonna be SOL becuase he won’t go there.

  591. Chuck Says:

    “We don’t know each other Mike, and no disrespect, but half of what you’ve posted here is made up”.

    You can exaggerate without lying.

    Embelish the truth, stretch the story, make something up, embellish.

    A lie is a non-truth.

    Making something up could be based partly on truth, therefore, not a lie.

    Got it?

    Not interested in addressing the rest..been there, done that, have had enough.

    Have a good day, Michael.

  592. Bob Says:

    News for me and Raul. ESPN hired Jason Taylor for its football show.

  593. Cameron Says:

    Good for him. Knowing how shit the lives of some old football players can be, good to see Taylor stay on top of things.

  594. Raul Says:

    Even Jason Taylor’s engaging personality can’t get me to watch ESPN.
    It’s good that he will stay in football in some capacity though.

  595. Mike Felber Says:

    You did not address most all of “the rest”. You often ignore what you do not want to face. So I will answer what you bothered to say.

    A lie is by definition NOT just a non-truth. It is an intentional deception.

    There is a gray area where exaggerating & lies intersect. Though actually if folks embellish the truth, they are technically also lying IF they are in touch with reality & know what happened. But folks are charitable, or wish to be about their own prevarications, so on ly foccus on the exaggeration aspect. Though if you KNOW you have done so, you have technically done both-it may be trivial.

    If you make up an aspect of a story, such as not just exaggerating the size of the fish you caught, but pretend you made a cathc you did not-that is a lie by even the charitable definition.

    Nobody here or anywhere would agree that “…half of what you post here is made up” is NOT calling someone a liar. Only reason i am not calling you a liar about not admitting you called me a liar is the self deception phenomena I described.

    Now you say I am an honest guy. OK, again: WHAT did I ever say that you even suspect was “made up” &/or “exaggerated”?

    If I give you, say, stats on a guy who I claims to be natural & I believe him to be: I never ever “pad” any of the facts or #s.

    I met another one recently, stood out dramatically in a Buddhist center, 6′ 2″ & a lean 255-260. He admitted having a 3-6 record as a heavyweight boxer, losing due to ADD issues, other flaws: & not knowing why he bulked up the last 3 years at 30, without doing power lifting style/low rep exercises. These outliers are all over the place, he would have absolutely no reason nor advantage to bare his soul about other matters but lie about this.

    I suspect that when you run up against “inconvenient” examples like this, you assume that I am exaggerating. I never have, at all.

  596. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, if you just want to call Mike a sanctimonious prick, just call him a sanctimonious prick.

  597. Chuck Says:

    “You often ignore what you do not want to face.”

    Which, right now, is this pointless discussion.

    I’m not running from anything and you’ve expressed yourself quite clearly, why this has even gone this far is beyond me.

    At this point, you’re only talking with yourself.

    Holy shit.

  598. Chuck Says:

    That’s what I pay you for, Cam, check’s in the mail, thanks.

  599. Mike Felber Says:

    Beyond you? I will clarify. It went this far because YOU chose to upbraid me aggressively, when even the fellow I wrote to did not object. And you chose to call me a liar. Then you chose it deny it, because you are in denial.

    You write me back & respond-but not in a substantive way-& your last line of defense is to act like it is ME who is belaboring things.

    You reaped a non-abusive response to what you sowed. When you do not read this I will be only talking to myself. If you choose to respond with another absurdly implausible note putting the stigma upon me, then you will be choosing to respond, & in a false & un-peaceful way.

  600. Mike Felber Says:

    Cameron, you acted in a hyper-aggressive, mean & childish way recently, & made the insane claim that ordering someone around & cursing at them was to “keep the peace”. You are in denial about projecting your own issues & animus upon others. Several called you out on it, & you made the most tortured & implausible case that it “kind of worked”.

    Now you encourage Chuck to be abusive. If you actually have any concern about how folks get along, & not being the hypocritical opposite about what you claim to hate & oppose, stop acting like an instigator.

  601. Chuck Says:

    Shut the fuck up, Mike.

    Let’s see you misinterpret that, you tool.

  602. Raul Says:

    I’m not involved in this but “having the last word” is a really annoying habit to have.

  603. Cameron Says:

    Mike, you know how you said delusion was a poison? Aren’t you deluding yourself in thinking you can change Chuck’s fundamental disagreements with you with a few allusions to Buddhism? Chuck may be… Okay, let me rephrase that. Chuck is an asshole. But I don’t necessarily find that a bad thing about him. But I don’t want him to sugarcoat what he feels about you.

    And I’m with him here. You’re coming across as a tool. A sanctimonious, pretentious, new age tool.

  604. Bob Says:

    Can we get back to baseball like Jamie Moyer is doing? This time with the Orioles.

  605. Raul Says:

    Well somehow that Hammel kid is pitching well in Baltimore. I suppose anything is possible for Moyer.

  606. Chuck Says:

    Wow, Orioles are pulling out all the stops to stay competitive.

  607. Bob Says:

    I am assuming that was tongue-in-cheek. And if it wasn’t, I still laughed.

  608. Cameron Says:

    Jamie Moyer will end up being the new Minnie Minoso at this rate.

  609. Chuck Says:

    Not too bad for an asshole, right?

  610. Chuck Says:

    I’ll have more later, but, geez, Yankees really went out of their way to underwhelm with their draft.

  611. Bob Says:

    I could say the same about the Sox, but two things come to mind.

    1. The new CBA muddled things up.
    2. A very weak draft. If you honestly think the talent is sub-par, don’t subjuct yourself to a sunk cost.
    3. Really looking forward to the results of the new mid-July signing deadline.

  612. Chuck Says:

    A’s released Kia Ka’ahuie.

    Sorry, Cam.

  613. Cameron Says:

    That sucks. Hawaiian Punch is one of those “man crush” type of players where your like of him and his tools overrides the obvious that he’s not very good. Hope something works out for him.

  614. Bob Says:

    The flip side of that move is Brandon Moss gets to display his skills!!! Have a good night.

  615. Raul Says:

    Wasn’t Brandon Moss a hot prospect like 7 years ago?

    Maybe he’s just a AAAA player.

  616. Chuck Says: Oakland calls up Moss and not Chris Carter?

  617. Cameron Says:

    Welcome to Oakland, Chuck. Check your sanity at the door.

    …And your wallet. First time I stepped off the BART into Oakland, I was almost mugged by a knife-wielding hobo.

  618. Chuck Says:

    With their final pick, the Royals chose South Mountain JC (Arizona) pitcher Taylor Kaczmarek.

    He was the AZ HS POY in 2010 and passed on a 30th round pick by the Dodgers to go to school.

    On May 26th, he was diagnosed with leukemia.

    The Royals will sign him and pay all his medical expenses under the ML insurance policy.

    That’s fucking awesome.

  619. Cameron Says:

    …Damn. That… That’s awesome. Not sure who to call the class act on there. My instinct is Moore, but since Glass signs the checks… Wait, Glass is willing to shell out for this kid’s leukemia treatment? David Glass, one of the most notorious tight-ass owners in the league? That’s fucking mind-blowing.

  620. Chuck Says:

    I know a couple of scouts who’ll refuse to go and watch games in Oakland.

    They said it isn’t worth the trouble, I guess getting to the park sucks, getting in and out, the neighborhood around the stadium, and the stadium itself.

  621. Cameron Says:

    From my experience of Oakland… Yeah. It’s a shithole. Oakland is the asshole of California.

  622. Mike Felber Says:

    Do you really think telling me to shut up will work Chuck? You have as many opinions here as I do-actually more, since I do not venture forth on things l;ike the draft where-unlike you-I do not really follow. You have no meaningful response, so get mean. Me saying something like this is not “acting superior”. You have been on automatic pilot in the broad stereotypical ways you attack-like labeling me a hypocrite: when i have shown nothing of the sort.

    Cameron, I am going to be tougher on you.

    1) You are being intellectually lazy, taking a no-nothing name calling attitude. I gave you SPECIFIC things you did-one of which others called you on-that were seem cruelly intended-others were charitable in saying “harsh”.

    2) You defended your self in a laughable way, like 1984/War is Peace methodology, denying your own dark impulses & acting like calling names & ordering folks around from a distance could HELP the peace.

    3) You DO sincerely want peace & are disturbed by conflict. But you have not dealt with your own negative & nasty impulses-tho0ugh you are the “kid” here, it is like a parent who threatens to knock both of their effing kids heads together if they do not behave.

    4) You never argued with me that you have taken a dramatically more faux “tough” approach to fit in around here. That is almost certainly because it is transparently true.

    5) I prefer not to call anyone an A-Hole, it just breeds disrespect & more fights. Chuck knows that I will call him on bad conduct endlessly. But he asked humbly if he made progress the last several years. The answer is YES. Hopefully I have too, though any who are sensitive about being called on things would not notice either way.

    6) perhaps the chief virtue of youth is potential & malleability to change, growth, improvement. If anything you have regressed from your initially-for a while-sweet & open nature.

    The question is, will you like most all-not just here-defend that regression due to being Ego bound, & calcify or retard your growth. Or admit this, at least to yourself.

    Being as harsh & profane as you can get away with in order to bond or get your perceived place in a pecking order is based on insecurity & bad for developing real maturity & depth.

    If you feel so compelled to test your manhood in such misguided ways, I suggest go to places where you face people directly, & you risk your teeth &/or consciousness when you stand on your “principles”.

    Or realize that such Ego-festivals are a selfish indulgence, the opposite of the peace & guidance of friends mentality that is your other, & I believe main, & I am sure higher, impulse.

  623. Cameron Says:

    Oay, took some time to cool off. I’ll admit, this place has probably changed me for the worse. But I have gotten a bit older, snarkier, and probably a little meaner as the years go on and I see more of the adult world (and slowly begin to hate it). Could I stand to be a little nicer? Eh, sure. Do I tend to side with Chuck and Raul over you and John? Yeah. Not because they’re mean or more macho, but because they show a more… I don’t know how to describe it exactly, real personality? I can see what the words they’re saying being who they really are. They don’t hide behind pretension and feel like they need to take an intellectual or moral high ground constantly so they can be better than everyone around them.

    Sometimes I can sense when you guys are just joking with each other, sometimes I get my signals mixed. But it’s pretty clear what’s going on here. It isn’t Chuck and his ego that is causing problems. It’s his perception of the ego you seem to display. I don’t know if you really think that you’re better than everyone else and always have the moral high ground. You don’t seem to nearly be enough of an asshole to do it. You’re not Dr. Phil. On the other hand, you seem to feel like the world you live in needs to be squeaky clean and you want others to see things your way when they don’t want to. You come across sometimes as what we on the internet call a “white knight”, someone who rides in to put trolls in their place expecting the masses to praise how awesome you are and then getting mad when we just brush it off like it’s nothing. Because it is nothing. Again, you just seem to be that way. I can’t presume to know enough about you personally to really make an accurate judgement.

    Mike, what you don’t realize is that when I came onto this board, I was still in high school, exposed to much less of the world and I was in a FAR better place. I’m in a pretty shitty place now and feeling a lot more angry and jaded at the world. It’s natural I’m gonna be a bit more cynical in my view of people and the world now. People change, Mike. I’m still a good guy deep down, but those edges got a lot sharper to fend off everyone trying to fuck me over and piss me off these days.

    But anyway Mike, if I can just offer you some advice. I wouldn’t say you’re a bad person. You’re a good guy. Maybe a little too sensitive though. People aren’t always gonna be nice and will say things that you don’t like. Get used to it. You’re 47 and live in Hell’s Kitchen, you should know how people can get. but your attempts to try and calm things down and educate people on how to be better are just making people angry and starting to resent you. They don’t mind you much normally. When you start trying to drag everyone to a moral high ground though, there’s a largely negative reaction going on. The advice you give is unwarranted and largely unwanted and counterproductive. Your intentions are noble, but… Let it go, man.

    It’s the internet. People are gonna be assholes. If you lose sleep over every asshole you meet on the internet, you might as well sell your bed now.

  624. Mike Felber Says:

    To be completely responsive to what you asked Cameron:

    I gave more than a few Buddhist allusions. The vast majority cannot admit wrong due to Ego & stubbornness-often not even to themselves. But endless studies show the divide between conscious actions, thoughts, & unconscious beliefs & motivations. Representing certain civilizing idea(l)s can influence both what is believed, on one level or another, & also sets a parameter about what is acceptable &/or better.

    Your “not wanting someone to sugar coat” is BS. I am being as direct as possible absent being a hypocrite by being mean as you presume to council Chuck. When you ask someone-& repeatedly-to use a profane insult to refer to someone, you are NOT encouraging “honesty”. You are giving a brittle, yapping incentive for a schoolyard, lower nature attack.

    See, I did not “sugar coat” anything for you, but did not call you a name.

  625. Cameron Says:

    Fair enough, and I’ll give you that one. But at least think about what I said. Some people are just gonna do what they do and aren’t gonna respond to any advice no matter how sound or unsound. Trying to help this place ends up counterproductive more often than not. Best to just leave it alone, man. I respect your intentions, I really do. But it’s not helping.

  626. Mike Felber Says:

    1) You presume to advise me without understanding basic things about me. Yes, you are correct you do not know enough to have accurate judgements.

    2) Nothing I have ever said is not wholly real & authentic. You are following the CLICHED ASSUMPTIONS that being crass, insulting, inexact & stereotypical…is more “real”. The folks you site do not strive to be as fair & exact as possible. At least when mad.

    3) You attempted yourself to regulate things,which is admirable: accept you have taken zero responsibility for having a nasty, profane, & thenm encouraging OTHERS to do the same attitude to aqccom plish this., Which is like using kerosene to out out a fire. Denial-not just a river in Africa.

    4) You have the cojones to admit the obvious-you got rougher & less decent here. Now I tell you from the heart that this HARDER attitude is both an AFFECTATION-you are the unreal person you project on others when you act that way-& I could bury you in evidence that this “fuck others before they fuck you” attitude makes people MORE miserable, created more conflict, & retards spiritual growth & happiness.

    5) I would be a hypocrite if though i do not act all hard, I got upset/triggered when i write at length. People often assume this, ’cause the only time THEY go on & debate at length is when they are upset. Evern when i express moral umbrage I am rarely at all “triggered”. I promise you I have never lost sleep about Internet conflicts like this.

    6) My comment to Patrick was mild, explicitly humble & credited him with maybe more virtues than i had: & he had no objection! It was not “appropriate” for Chuck to lose his cool & “advise” me on something that was not a problem.

    7) The MEANS of advising me, like your own means of advising folks to shut the fuck up or tell others some cursing dismissive thing, is the issue.

    8) Being a White Knight is not bad, & being mean, prejudiced, attacking folks personally, or driving folks away, is not nothing.

    9) I want to be kind about this, but you have very limited understanding of not only what I feel-& assume things not in evidence reflexively-but it is more than limited life experience. You are just not remotely understanding what is going on or in a position to judge here.

    10) Because, in part, you have not even come to grips with your own motivations & taken responsibility for them.

    You may think I am disagreeing at length to attack you. NOTHING could be further from the truth. If you assume that, JUST as you assuming that I am upset by this stuff, or am not “authentic”…

    You are projecting what YOU would feel or do, or why, in my situation.

  627. Cameron Says:

    I may be projecting like I think you might be, but here’s the thing. I’m not the one pissing off the entire board now am I?

    I was an asshole, I said things I shouldn’t have, and I do apologize. But at this point, we’re really just going around in circles here trying to change each other and others when really, nothing’s probably gonna change at the end of the day.

    I’m willing to just drop this and let it go if you are. This is a baseball site after all, let’s talk ball. What do ya say? No hard feelings?

  628. Mike Felber Says:

    I have no idea how I created that icon above.

    Yes, sometimes it is best to leave things alone. When you cannot help being mean, profane, or nasty at least. And some other times. We may disagree when or how often. Though if folks usually did that, bullies, haters/racists/misgymists, & the most violent & vulgar would rule the world.

    I am not saying those I disagree with here are like that. Just stating a general principle that we are our brother’s keeper. If done in a non-violent spirit.

  629. Mike Felber Says:

    You & Chuck, called on very specific bad conduct you cannot begin to refute, were or are pissed off. That is not nearly the entire board. With your admissions above you have already changed, at least to a degree. And I am optimistic that if you have bothered to read-or will read-carefully what I said, it will have some at least slowly detonating impact. The board has often & amicably strayed from baseball.

    I have no hard feelings, as stated in other words above. I have nothing new to add. If there is any baseball to talk, let her rip.

  630. Patrick Says:

    @618 That is awesome. I wish Taylor Kaczmarek and the Royals the best. In a business where owners bleed wasted money, this is one investment that can’t go wrong from a human standpoint, and probably from a baseball standpoint too.

    Most leukemias are curable these days, but going through something like that will make a young man mature beyond his years. Let’s hope he has a curable one. Good for the Royals.

    I think the Brewers should take a shot with Kila. Nothing to lose and he may do well getting out of pitcher’s parks (Oak, KC). I don’t know why, but I always felt like this guy was going to do something someday.

    Glad to see you guys are going to drop it. There was a day in the USA when you could joke about drinking alcohol, remember Foster Brooks and Dean Martin? Anyway, regardless of how well you take care of your temple, you’re still going to die someday. We have 7 billion people and already can’t take care of them, if we all live to be 100 we’re going to run out of resources. I’m just doing my part for humanity.

    Mike wrote; “Though if folks usually did that, bullies, haters/racists/misgymists, & the most violent & vulgar would rule the world.”

    Uhhh, they already do. I hesitate to make this last point but I can’t stop myself. I’m tired of the word misgymists in the absence of misandry (the hatred of men). Our oppression deserves equal time!

  631. Cameron Says:

    Patrick, listen to the crack of Kila’s bat when you can. Sounds like a goddamn cannon. …Problem is his contact is so shit you don’t hear it often.

  632. Patrick Says:

    Kila is on my fantasy team. It’s AL only and he’s my last hitter. I think Oakland tried to make him more of a contact hitter, which is stupid. If he’s anything, he’s a HR-K guy like Reynolds or Dunn. Put him in Miller Park, commit to him for the second half and let him swing. For minimum wage, I think he would hit about 15 HR from here on out.

  633. Chuck Says:

    “Wait, Glass is willing to shell out for this kid’s leukemia treatment”


    Once he signs, he’s covered under MLB insurance.

    Just like at a regular job, you’d have access to short/long-term disability/FMLA, etc.

  634. Chuck Says:


    Good call, Patrick. Wouldn’t be surprised to see either Ka’aihue or Allen end up there, but they already have essentially the same player in Ishikawa, so maybe not.

  635. Chuck Says:

    “…you do not know enough to have accurate judgements.”

    Exactly my point.

  636. Patrick Says:

    Actually, Allen is an unbelievable power hitter, he’s the best all or nothing guy you’ll find. He has holes in his game but I’d give him a shot over both Kila and Ishikawa.

    About Kaczmarek, I thought that would be a pre-existing condition, but cool if it’s covered. Regardless, pro ball is a nice carrot waiting for him at the end of his treatment and recovery.

  637. Patrick Says:

    About Allen, I don’t know anything about the guy outside the lines, but he seems to wear out his welcome in a hurry for a guy who can hit the ball 460′.

    Joe Maddon likes his clubhouse filled with unity and good karma. Carlos Pena could hit .160(probably will) and he’d still have a job because he’s like one of Maddon’s unofficial captains that keeps the team focused the way Maddon likes.

    Some guys are in and out of a Rays uniform because they don’t fit in to his “the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts” vision.

    I have no idea if this was Allen’s case or a just a matter of having about 5 lefty power hitters with the same skill set. But Allen’s Rays experience, coupled with the A’s cutting him when all they had was Barton and Kila, makes me wonder.

  638. Raul Says:

    Happy 46th birthday, Heathcliff Slocumb! Slocumb was born in Jamaica, Queens, New York and was signed by the Mets. Unfortunately he’d never play for them as he was traded to the Cubs for pitcher Jose Hernandez in 1993. A moderately successful reliever, Slocumb managed 10 years in the Majors before retiring in 2000. A couple of notes about trades: Slocumb was once traded for Ruben Amaro, and was the guy who brought Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek to Boston.

    Born today:

    Herb Score. The 1955 Rookie of the Year, Score would just just 8 seasons with the Indians and White Sox. His record 245 strikeouts as a rookie stood for nearly 30 years until Dwight Gooden came along in 1984. In 1957, Score was hit in the face by a line drive off Gil MacDougald. It would prove to be a career-changing event. Score was never the same after the injury, and while many suggested he altered his motion because of it, Score would later say the real reason he changed his motion was because he’d injured his elbow and tried to compensate for the pain.

    Everyone knows I’m against the idea of limiting pitchers due to pitch counts, but when I look at Score’s 1st two years in the league, I can’t help but wonder if perhaps he was left out there too often. Score pitched 227 innings as a rookie, and 249 in his 2nd year. Nothing to raise huge flags, in my opinion. He struck out 245 and 263 batters. Fantastic. But he also walked 154 and 129. This is a guy who was out there for a ton of pitches. The MacDougald shot to the face would affect anyone. But two years of 512 strikeouts AND 283 walks is an awful lot of stress, and perhaps Score was right. It was the damage of all those pitches to his elbow that likely sidetracked him.

    Also born today, Thurman Munson. Munson’s leadership and ability are well-documented. When you consider the great players to have worn the pinstripes over the last century: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, Ford, Jackson, Mattingly, Jeter…perhaps no Yankee, to this day, is more beloved than the late Thurman Munson. To reach that kind of place in the hearts of Yankees fans speaks volumes.

  639. Chuck Says:


  640. Chuck Says:

    Whoa..hey Raul, did your uncle ever tell you why the Astros closed their Dominican Development facility?

  641. Raul Says:

    I haven’t spoken to him in a few months. But I do know that he’s kinda out of the baseball business down there right now. Being in his late 50s…I think the work wore on him. He does have like a handful of kids he oversees a bit.

    I have no idea why the Astros facility closed. I’ll guess steroids or illegal drug trafficking.

  642. Raul Says:

    Over his last 10 games, Mark Teixeira is hitting .324/.395/.703 with 4 home runs and 2 doubles.

  643. Chuck Says:

    “I’ll guess steroids or illegal drug trafficking.”

    I’ll send you an email later.

  644. Raul Says:

    Earlier, Cameron asked if Twins manager Ron Gardenhire might be fired. I don’t think so. But Buddy Black could be.

    In a little over 5 years at the helm in San Diego, Black has compiled a 407-461 record. And while he did win 89 games in 2007 and 90 in 2010, he won just 71 games following the departure of Adrian Gonzalez to Boston last year. And he’s currently 19-38 this year — 17 games behind the division-leading LA Dodgers.

    Like Gardenhire, I don’t think it’s Black’s fault. The team is young and he’s never had much to work with. But managers seem to have short leashes.

    Chase Headley has career splits that essentially make him the anti-Ian Kinsler. And Cameron Maybin is the poster child for “5-tool” players that suck. In fact, just about every single time you hear someone say a player has “5-tools”, that player inevitably ends up being a crappy Major Leaguer. Billy Beane comes to mind…

  645. Chuck Says:

    If I was Black I’d want to be fired..Josh Byrnes is the biggest tool going.

  646. Raul Says:

    If Black did get fired, I could see Kansas City taking a shot at him.

    They’re a young team and from a W/L perspective not much better than San Diego. But KC has a brighter future and Black did pitch for the franchise in the 80s. A former pitcher could be helpful to the young crop of throwers in the Royals’ farm system.

  647. Brautigan Says:

    It seems to me the biggest hole in the “5 tool guy” repetoire is the inability to take a walk or lay off of a bad pitch.

    Guys like Ruben Mateo, Fernando Martinez, Wilken Ramirez, Josh Booty, Juan Encarnacion and Jeremy Reed come to mind.

  648. Brautigan Says:

    San Diego, as a franchise, is in really bad shape.

  649. Mike Felber Says:

    #635, in some cases. Mine about not using too much substances & it coming most always from certain places was pretty general, circumspect, & well received. Patrick, misogyny is huge, yes. Though the “duty to die/get out of the way” like James watt’s infamously said, is malarkey. There are tons of ways to reduce our damage/footprint, & folks of any intelligence & good will can save or help many folks. We both could be sponsoring kids/basic resources like water & anti-malaria nets-no reason why I should not start actually.

    No reason to be too attached to life & accept death. But many rationalize their pathologies w/the thinnest & most tired, irrational rationalizations. like smoking ’cause “you gotta die sometime”. Um yeah, but why poison yourself w/100’s of toxic chemicals & damage those who breathe your air, paying 1000’s for the privilege before too long?

    I did not know about the later story of Herb Score! But those days a pitcher good that early would almost certainly be given those slots in the rotation, regardless of how many walks he had, right? So I do not think it is likely he could have avoided that injury.

  650. Raul Says:

    You would think SD would have a nice pool of prospects in their system right now. They haven’t been all that good in a long time.

    1st rounders:

    2001: Jake Gautreau
    2002: Khalil Greene
    2003: Tim Stauffer
    2004: Matt Bush
    2005: Cesar Carrillo
    2006: Matt Antonelli
    2007: Nick Schmidt
    2008: Allan Dykstra
    2009: Donavan Tate
    2010: Karsten Whitson
    2011: Cory Spangenberg


  651. Raul Says:

    Tigers prospect Nick Castellanos was promoted to AA two days ago.

  652. Brautigan Says:

    It seems they haven’t recovered from the Matt Bush debacle. Guess who #2 was in 2004? And Dustin Pedroia was #65.

  653. Brautigan Says:

    Herb Score was probably making as much money as an insurance salesman (actually, Billy Werber made more money selling insurance than he ever did as a ball player) was back in those days. Since there was such a fine line between making the same money year in and year out versus getting your salary cut, a lot of players went out and played with hurt arms (or legs), ultimately ruining their careers. Was this a case of score burning out after two years or pitching with a sore arm rendering it useless? Who knows? All I know is Score was not the same pitcher after having his face disolved into silly putty by a Gil McDougald line drive.

  654. Raul Says:

    Verlander went 2nd in 2004.
    Jered Weaver went 12th.
    Billy Butlet went 14th.

  655. Cameron Says:

    Is there a player in the majors with a better ratio of “no one cares about this guy” to “holy shit look at these stats” than Billy Butler? The dude’s quietly been one of the league’s best hitters for years.

  656. Raul Says:

    It’s because Butler plays in Kansas City.
    But John will tell you it’s because he’s fat. Because apparently he and Michael Lewis still want the public to believe that teams sort talent by BMI.

  657. Cameron Says:

    Jason Giambi got a fair amount of attention and the dude looked like the Michelin man.

  658. Chuck Says:

    Jason Giambi=steriods

    Billy Butler=KC BBQ

  659. Cameron Says:

    God, I just got to thinking about how much KC BBQ you could afford on Butler’s salary. Damn… My mouth can’t stop watering.

  660. Raul Says:

    How expensive is BBQ in Kansas City?

    Actually, how much is rent in Kansas City?

  661. Cameron Says:

    Rent in KC is actually pretty damn cheap. You can rent a duplex for about $600 a month. If you down to the suburbs, you can find a 1 bed/1 bath for $300 a month if you know where to look.

    As for the BBQ, depends on what you’re looking for. A place like Arthur Bryant’s is 7 bucks a sandwich, but they’re like half-pound sandwiches. At most, you’re spending 20-25 bucks and that’s for a good rack of ribs.

  662. Raul Says:

    RA Dickey is 9-1 with a 2.44 ERA.

    He’s really re-invented himself with the knuckleball.
    Kudos if you knew that Dickey was 37 years old. Because I didn’t.

  663. Cameron Says:

    The best part about RA Dickey? Minimal injury risk. Born without a UCL, so no chance of damaging it. That and the knuckleballing.

  664. Raul Says:


    Let’s assume I’ve got decent money and I’m not eating mayonnaise sandwiches 4 times a week — so I’m looking for a nice apartment…what’s that gonna run?

  665. Cameron Says:

    Nice apartment? At the most, $525 a month. And that’s for the more high-end ones. If you really wanna splurge, there’s some really nice lofts downtown that run for $800, but that’s the most I’ve ever seen apartments run.

  666. Cameron Says:

    And Raul, for the record, I know where a fair amount of guys from the Chiefs and Royals really go. They don’t go apartment hunting. They buy up the McMansions in the suburbs. Lee’s Summit, my home, was a popular place. Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, even retired guys like Frank White and (for some bizarre reason) Rick Sutcliffe.

  667. Chuck Says:

    Best BBQ in Kansas City is at a gas station?

    I heard the DBacks broadcasters talking about that when they were heading up for the series.

  668. Raul Says:

    My 1 BR here is 950, and it’s old and kind of a dump.
    Back in NY (in the suburbs) I had a 1 BR that I lived in for a year at 1350 plus utilities. In KC with that kind of money, I could practically buy the 3 or 4 decent-looking women that live in the KC area.

  669. Cameron Says:

    Everyone has their own personal taste. If you’re talking gas stations, he was probably talking about the local franchise The Filling Station. They bought up old gas stations and refitted them with BBQ kitchens. They’re alright. They use a sauce that’s a bit too thin and sweet for me, though. They treat the meat okay.

    For my money, I’m going to Arthur Bryant’s. Gates is good, too. Fiorello’s Jack Stack is franchising outside of KC and they’re not half bad.

  670. Cameron Says:

    …You know Raul, I was about to argue with you, but yeah… KC isn’t home to that many models. There’s hot chicks there, don’t get me wrong, but they’re more my age and not yours. =P

  671. Brautigan Says:

    Whatever hot chicks Portland had, well, tatooed themselves where they resemble billboards. It’s like they’re yearning for porn star status.

    I’m going to Portland’s best BBQ tonight: Called Podnah’s Pit. My 26th wedding anniversary. Or Brazillian. Or Szechuan. Depends on what the spouse prefers. Later folks………….

  672. Raul Says:

    Congratulations, Braut.

  673. Chuck Says:

    “My 1 BR here is 950, and it’s old and kind of a dump.”

    I own a ten year old, 2600 square foot house that I designed and my mortgage payment is less than $900.

  674. Chuck Says:

    “well, tatooed themselves where they resemble billboards.”

    “Tramp stamps”

  675. Chuck Says:

    Raul..tried to send an email and it came back as undeliverable?

  676. Raul Says:

    “While Ka’aihue’s production has been below-average (.234/.295/.398 with four homers) over 139 plate appearances, that still gives him the fifth-best adjusted OPS on the team.”

    It’s 91 and over 128 at-bats.

    Yeah, it’s kind of a dick move to do that to him given the timing. But mentioning his OPS+???

    I almost want to punch this writer’s mouth loose.

  677. Raul Says:


  678. Cameron Says:

    The fifth best hitter in Oakland is still the worst guy in Sacramento.

  679. Chuck Says:

    Royals signed Kyle Zimmer.

    Astros signed first overall pick Carlos Correa.

    Slot was $7.2.

    He signed for $4.8.

    Kid might be great at baseball, but he sucks at math.

  680. Chuck Says:

    Thanks, Raul..I think I had your old New York address.


  681. Raul Says:

    I see what you’re saying, Chuck, but you could put Carlos Correa in every draft of the last 25 years and he wouldn’t go in the Top 5 in any of them.

    He’s a poor Puerto Rican kid. You really wanna end up like Matt Harrington?
    He isn’t worth slot and he should be thrilled to get 4.8 million dollars.

  682. Chuck Says:

    Good point, Raul.

    I saw some mocks that didn’t have him top five in THIS draft.

  683. Cameron Says:

    @679 Why is the first word that comes to mind “signability”?

  684. Chuck Says:

    The thing about the Kila article that got me fired up?

    Oakland was worried about Brandon Moss’ opt out?

    Brandon Moss’ opt out.

    A lifetime AAA player had an opt out and Oakland was worried about losing him?

    If that doesn’t tell you all you need to know about Oakland’s development philosophy…

  685. Raul Says:

    Who knows? Maybe Brandon Moss figured out which fruit punch Jose Bautista was taking, and he will also “suddenly” figure MLB pitching out.

  686. Cameron Says:

    Considering the crap contact Bautista’s making, i’d say MLB pitching figured him out. Still shows the power, but you can’t hit 50 homers when you’re batting .220.

  687. Cameron Says:

    Huh, I found some pleasant surprises when checking the AL All-Star ballot vote totals. Quite a few Royals are ranking on the ballot.

    2nd Base – Chris Getz (5th Place)
    Shortstop – Alcides Escobar (4th Place)
    3rd Base – Mike Moustakas (5th Place)
    Designated Hitter – Billy Butler (4th Place)
    Outfield – Jeff Francouer (10th Place)
    Outfield – Alex Gordon (13th Place)

    We’re making some noise. Not a lot, but I think this is the most attention we’ve received on the ballots in a while. having the ASG in KC probably helps.

  688. Cameron Says:

    And Aroldis Capman gave up his first earned run of the season tonight. …That’s pretty damn impressive. He may only pitch one inning a game, but scoreless through 55 games is scoreless through 55 games.

  689. Mike Felber Says:

    Clearly pure velocity means a lot-even with his limited skills. Just like Shavers was able to be a top 10 heavyweight for years-during the golden age of HWs-even though he had limited boxing skills, endurance, & a just decent at best chin.

  690. Cameron Says:

    If velocity alone made a pitcher, Steve Dalkowski would be the greatest man who ever lived. However, I still credit Chapman for turning himself around.

  691. Mike Felber Says:

    I said nothing like velocity ALONE makes a pitcher, I said it means a lot, even with limited skills. I am the one who has talked extensively about Dalkowski here. Many MLB experts, Weaver his mentor, Cal Ripkin Sr. Paul Blair, Ted Williams, others-said he was the fastest that they ever saw, faster than Ryan & Koufax. But not being able to get the ball over the plate is beyond “limited skills”. It is giving away the store. Analogous to Shavers or any boxer never defending themselves, evading nor positioning their body/rolling to minimize any punches.

    Dalkowski was doing very well before his arm went dead, when he took a bit off the ball & finally learned some control.

  692. Patrick Says:

    Clint Robinson got called up by the Royals this morning.

    Maybe the Royals are getting ready to make a trade? Butler? You know they won’t trade Hosmer. Tough to get Robinson in the lineup even for a short look.

  693. Cameron Says:

    I think Robinson’s up there t platoon Hosmer while he’s in the slump he’s in and to build up his own trade value. In the long run, the dude’s an odd man out.

  694. Chuck Says:

    Robinson call-up due to Royals wanting another bat option for inter-league play.

    If rotations hold out, Greinke is scheduled to pitch against KC in inter-leauge.

  695. Chuck Says:

    Said before, said again.

    Velocity, especially at the ML level, is overrated by the fans and some media.

    Movement is FAR more important than velocity.

    The number of guys who can consistently throw 95+ are few, the number of guys who throw 95+ and who can cut or turn the ball over with any consistent command are fewer.

    Hitters don’t see guys like that too often, which makes hitting them difficult.

    If EVERYONE threw like Chapman, he’d be getting lit up, because guys could time it out of repetition, and his ball is straighter.

    The improvement in Chapman isn’t fastball related, it’s slider related. He now has another option for hitter’s to look for, which turns the odds more into his favor.

  696. Mike Felber Says:

    OK, that sounds fair Chuck. But if speed is that much overrated, then how can you think the old timers are as good as today or better. Take my avatar. Even IF he threw harder than Chapman, which even I cannot say is likely, besides a decent change up, he had no good 2nd pitch. Except for the curve in the ‘25 WS, & he normally threw straight gas. How could he be so incredibly dominant with just that? His/any FB is only going to move so much, you knew it was coming…

    Must have been that those guys were just not as athletic, & the average guy did not throw as hard. Could he be nearly as good reincarnated? i would love it to be so, but I do not know how that could be possible.

  697. Chuck Says:

    Old-timers were fundamentally better, not physically better.

    Johnson was successful for a number of reasons, including competition, but he was the hardest thrower of his era.

    His fastball moved naturally plus Johnson learned to do different things to make it move around, the fact he had his little nickel curve was enough to keep hitters honest, but the biggest thing in his favor was his delivery.

    Johnson was also an upper body thrower which cost him velocity, and the ball used in those days was a factor as well.

    I read somewhere best case estimates of Johnson’s FB speed somewere in the 90-92 range.

    Today, with some delivery adjustments and the smaller, lighter ball, one could easily add five mph to his average.

  698. Bob Says:

    1. Braut congrats.
    2. Does hockey end tomorrow night?
    3. Who here is rooting for I’ll have Another to win the Triple Crown? I am.

  699. Chuck Says:

    1) Ditto
    2) No
    3) me

  700. Patrick Says:

    @694 You’re probably right, but given Robinson’s consistency at a high level, how do you not give this a guy a chance to play? They’re pitching around him at AAA. He doesn’t seem like much of a fielder at 1B, he had 9 errors in 50 games this year. Not much else that he can prove there. Could the put Butler back in the OF once in awhile? Probably not.

    @697 My guess would be that the old guys like Smokey Joe, Johnson and Feller threw in the mid to upper 90’s. It seems like the best guys back then would be the best now too. Also, the old pitchers worked their arms more, not just the obvious huge pitch totals. For instance, Bob Feller worked the farm when he wasn’t pitching. I think the guys who are built to withstand the strain of extra work benefit greatly.

    Here’s the reason why I don’t think there is much difference between the best of the 20’s and now; I went to old Yankee Stadium a lot when I was a kid. The bleechers beyond the monuments in center were 463′, it was ridiculous. The way I remember it, Babe Ruth was said to have hit about 20 of the 24 HR’s that ever landed there, with Mantle hitting the others. These weren’t during HR Derby either. Not too many guys, if any, are going to do that today.

    That may be a stretch to say Johnson threw 98 because one of his contemporaries hit the ball the furthest ever, but that’s my story.

  701. Patrick Says:

    @698 1) yup 2) Hockey ended when they went on strike

    3) Yeah, absolutely. We’re going to box some trifectas with him at the top of every one. Probably Bodi will hang on this time, lol.

  702. Raul Says:

    Bill James in his Historical Abstract wrote that it is probable that some pitchers threw harder back in the day in comparison to now, because the pitching motions today are so abbreviated.

    Who knows if that’s true.

    One thing I am confident in is that over the last several decades, the vast majority of changes to the game have favored hitters.

    So in a sense, I think guys like Lefty Grove, Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson might be less dominant in today’s game. Not because hitters are better, but because hitters have been given every advantage possible.

  703. Raul Says:

    There will not be a Triple Crown in horse racing this year.
    “I’ll Have Another” is out of the race.

  704. Bob Says:


  705. Raul Says:

    Speaking of pitchers who throw hard:

    Rick Porcello of the Tigers is just 23 years old and in his 4th ML season.
    The kid can get it up to nearly 100 mph and yet, his career ERA is 4.58 through 100 starts.

    He’s allowed 652 hits in 578 innings, posting a K/9 rate of 4.9.

    Someone teach this kid a pitch besides a fastball. Please.

  706. Raul Says:

    Johan Santana battles Hiroki Kuroda and the Yankees tonight.
    Rumors are that the Mets want to limit Santana to 90 pitches or so. If the Yankees are patient and get some timely hits, Santana could be gone by the 4th.

  707. Raul Says:

    Daniel Hudson makes his 6th start of the season tonight versus the Athletics.

    After a brutal April and what appears to have been a DL stint (?), Hudson bounced back with a decent performance against the Brewers on May 27th.

    His last start against the Padres saw him go 8 innings, allowing 5 hits and 2 ER.

    For those of you in Fantasy Leagues, he could be a nice buy-low option right now.

  708. Bob Says:

    The Tigers need to re-hire Roger Craig.

  709. Raul Says:

    Barry Zito starts tonight against the Texas Rangers.

    Through 11 starts this season, Zito has a 2.98 ERA.
    In 2010, Zito was at 2.78 through 11 starts. He finished the year with a 4.15 ERA.

    Any takers on Zito finishing the season with a sub 4.00 ERA?

  710. Chuck Says:

    “Any takers on Zito finishing the season with a sub 4.00 ERA?”

    He may not have a sub-4.00 ERA after tonite.

  711. Raul Says:

    Cardinals pitcher Shelby Miller in AAA: 57 innings, 70 hits, 12 HR Allowed, 5.18 ERA, 63 strikeouts.

    Orioles shortstop Manny Machado in AA: 57 games, .233/.328/.359, 13 doubles, 44 strikeouts.

    Pirates pitcher Jameson Taillon in A+: 58 innings, 48 hits, 3 HR Allowed, 3.57 ERA, 52 strikeouts.

  712. Raul Says:

    From Mike Silva’s new website.

    Joe Girardi told Hughes that Brennan Boesch was going to be his last batter of the game. “I just told him, this is your last hitter,” Joe Girardi told reporters after the game. “This is it. This is as far as I’m pushing you. Empty it out.” Hughes was able to strike him out to earn his first career nine inning complete game.

    Personally, I think this is silly. It was also silly of Terry Collins to be so concerned about Johan Santana after Friday’s no-hitter.

    I am not an injury expert (will leave that to a certain Sports Illustrated Writer), but I have discussed pitching mechanics with various industry experts. Bad mechanics will ultimately lead to injury, regardless of pitch count. You could blow out your arm throwing 60 pitches a start just as easily as 120.

    We are at a point where teams are carrying 13 pitchers on a roster. This is because of managers holding their starters to 100 pitches. It’s, quite simply, not enough.

    I have seen research that suggests a pitcher is far less effective when they go north of 100, but each individual’s drop-off is different. You can’t treat Freddy Garcia’s 100 to 125 pitches the same as Hughes.

    It also seems that organizations are afraid to have their manager’s and pitching coach’s think critically. If a hurler is tired at pitch 101 and compromising his mechanics to the point of injury, then take him out. If not, do you really think 30 more pitches will hurt him? If Santana’s season ends due to the fact he went an extra 30 pitches on a warm June night, then he probably isn’t going to make it to September anyway. Even my novice eye could tell he was healthy and sound. He was as strong in the ninth as he was during the first three innings. Pitch counts are not a simple “if-then” template.

    It’s time that Terry Collins and Joe Girardi push their hurlers deeper into games. I understand keeping Santana around 100 pitches due to his surgery. I’ll add Andy Pettitte to that equation, as well. But Sabathia, Dickey, Hughes, Niese, Gee and Kuroda should be around 115 to 130 pitches every outing. A knuckleballer like Dickey could be pushed even further.

    Bullpens can’t continue to be taxed. It’s funny that no one cares that Tim Byrdak is on pace to pitch well over 90 games and warm up in another 30. He can warm up multiple times each night, but Phil Hughes and Jon Niese can’t throw 130 pitches once every five days?

    We are seeing offense regress to pre-steroid era levels. Maybe we can get pitcher utilization back to what we saw in the 1980s.

  713. Raul Says:

    Cincinnati Reds Minor League shortstop Billy Hamilton has 69 stolen bases in 57 games this season.

    Sure, it’s at High A-ball. So technically, who cares? That’s a lot of stolen bases though.

    A bit concerning that this is Hamilton’s 4th Minor League season, and he’s at High A-ball.


  714. Chuck Says:

    When I saw that Hughes had pitched a CG, I about fell off the chair.

    I figured maybe Girardi got stuck in traffic or something and Tony Pena was managing the tearm

  715. Mike Felber Says:

    That all sounds sensible Raul, very discerning.

    Chuck, I agree with you about most of that, but as someone who has read much, inc. the Grandson’s autobiography, I must disagree strongly about something. Most all reports agree that he threw harder than Feller. Feller threw late ’90’s even with no mound conditions, & he reported throwing well over 100-he likely did throw over 100 at his best. And he was rarely tested. Feller himself said Johnson likely threw faster. The only tests available were a joke, had him at 82 MPH, but the important thing is he was ~ 9% faster than who else was tested using the same method, then & a generation later.

    Also, he critiqued Smokey Joe Wood as all arms. Though he pitched from a short motion, I think he did get back & legs into it. No way Johnson only threw 90-92.

  716. Chuck Says:

    “Although a lack of precision instruments prevented accurate measurement of his fastball, in 1917, a Bridgeport, Connecticut munitions laboratory recorded Johnson’s fastball at 134 feet per second, which is equal to 91.36 miles per hour (147.03 km/h), a velocity which was virtually unique in Johnson’s day, with the possible exception of Smoky Joe Wood.”

  717. John Says:

    @713, can’t steal first.

  718. Raul Says:

    Phil Hughes’ last 5 starts:

    33 innings
    33 hits
    13 earned runs
    8 walks
    27 strikeouts
    3.51 ERA

    That includes a game against the Angels where he allowed 7 earned runs in 5 innings.

    I’ve watched Hughes pitch this season…maybe 6 or 7 times.
    This guy is good but he can’t ever seem to close guys away. With 2 strikes or 2 outs, it’s like he always gives up a walk or a hit to extend things.

    And even if he gets out of it, he’ll throw another 7 or 8 pitches.

    At this point, I’m convinced his Cut Fastball needs to be a waste pitch because he’ll never control it like Mariano Rivera. He should be up there going strictly Fastball-Curveball. Focus on dropping the hammer and maybe you could be like a more-effective AJ Burnett…except going curve instead of slider. Use the change-up as a change of pace…and the cutter as a waste pitch to see if batters will chase.

  719. John Says:

    “We are at a point where teams are carrying 13 pitchers on a roster. This is because of managers holding their starters to 100 pitches. It’s, quite simply, not enough.

    I have seen research that suggests a pitcher is far less effective when they go north of 100, but each individual’s drop-off is different. You can’t treat Freddy Garcia’s 100 to 125 pitches the same as Hughes.”

    I completely agree.

    But the two guys you’re citing, Raul, include Santana (missed all of last season) and Hughes (had “dead-arm” last year).

    I mean, I would think they’d be on the lower end of the spectrum.

  720. Raul Says:


    That’s true. But he hasn’t had to. He’s hitting .321 on the year.

  721. Raul Says:

    I’m not citing them, John.

    That’s copied and pasted from Silva’s article.

  722. John Says:

    Oh, my bad. Silva then.

    Hamilton had a .340 OBP last year at A-ball, and he appears to be getting the job done in high A, but everything I’ve ever read about him suggests that he’s just a poky hitter at the plate and leaves much to be desired in the field.

    He’s committed 53 errors in his last 185 games at SS, so…

  723. Mike Felber Says:

    I have seen that quote floating around somewhere on the Internet Chuck. It is wrong: check his Grandson’s boon, Baseball’s Big Train. That test was in 1911, he is credited with only 122 feet per second, meaning 82 MPH. That is absurd.

    The guy he was measured with, 113 feet per second. About 20 years or so later, the 2 speedsters tested 133 & 111. So clearly the method is both not accurate, & also Johnson threw much faster than other tested. Also, he only had about 3 pitches, one time. Nobody throws there hardest ever under these conditions.

  724. Mike Felber Says:

    TYPO: a generation later, the 2 guys tested at 113 & 111 feet per second, NOT 133.

  725. Raul Says:

    He should be at a higher level than A+. I still think stealing that many bases is a nice accomplishment.

    It’s like a high schooler hitting 3 HR in a game. Yeah, it’s just HS, but impressive even in that context.

    Hughes had dead arm last year. But that was last year, and he’s shown to be healthy all Spring and during the season. The gloves are off when it comes to him.

    As far as Santana…yeah, I understand the Mets wanting to protect him. But I would support having someone take his spot in the rotation and moving Santana back a day or two, instead of having him go with a strict limit of 90-100 pitches.

  726. John Says:

    The fan in me loved watching that no-hitter unfold, and loved what it meant for Santana and the Mets.

    I think if I was Terry Collins, detachment from emotions would be necessary. You don’t get extra wins for a no-no, and now he’s looking at limiting his ace against the Yankees. Odds are, Santana will be just fine, but there’s a risk/reward aspect.

    Times like this, I’m glad I’m just a fan.

  727. Chuck Says:

    In reading some of the pre-draft threads, it appears the sabermetric bonerfest regarding stolen bases and walks extends all the way down to A ball now.

    Hamilton couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat.

    A slap hitter repeating A ball?

    At least he can tell his grandkids he played pro ball.

  728. Raul Says:

    lol @ Chuck.


    The Mets don’t have to limit Santana at all, is my argument. Is it really that bad to have Santana pushed back to start Sunday afternoon and eliminate any pitch count?

  729. Cameron Says:

    The only way Billy Hamilton makes the major leagues is if he becomes the next Herb Washington.

  730. John Says:

    I mean, it seems like he’s crazy bad at fielding.

    He’s currently hitting .321/.407/.449…he at least gonna get promoted to AA soon?

  731. John Says:

    “The Mets don’t have to limit Santana at all, is my argument. Is it really that bad to have Santana pushed back to start Sunday afternoon and eliminate any pitch count?”

    I could be wrong, but isn’t he already being pushed back?

  732. Raul Says:


    You’re right. Santana pitched last Friday, June 1st.
    Still, 6/7 days rest is plenty, even if they pushed him to Saturday night.

  733. Chuck Says:

    First 25 games, Hamilton hit .392, last 30 he’s at .268.

    Hitters have the advantage first month of the season or so while pitchers build up arm strength and get their command on track.

    Now that they collectively can spin breaking balls and command their stuff more consistently, his average is sinking faster than Oprah’s career.

    And these are A ball pitchers we’re talking about, mind you.

  734. John Says:

    I mean, it seems to me that the 90-pitch limit is fine if he goes on normal rest, or no limit on 6-7. Seems superflous to do both.

  735. Chuck Says:

    Pitch counts are for pussies.

  736. Raul Says:

    I’d rather push a pitcher back and remove all limits.
    It probably puts your team at more of a disadvantage to limit a pitcher going into a game, than it does to adjust the rotation schedule.

    Lord forbid they change the schedule. MLB managers are such sticklers. What are they? Nazis?

  737. John Says:

    Sigh. We’re running out of shit to argue about.

  738. John Says:

    Well, there is something to be said for a set schedule. One of the reasons why I support the 4-man+swingman…you know exactly what you’re doing each day and it doesn’t change.

  739. Raul Says:

    You married yet, John?


  740. Chuck Says:

    Not as long as sabermetric are around.

    Can argue that idiocy all day

  741. Cameron Says:

    Wow, it only took 736 posts to invoke Godwinn’s Law. Impressive.

  742. John Says:

    @739, well played.

    @740, and most of the time, you’re wrong.

  743. Chuck Says:

    I’ll remember that John the next time you start.

  744. Mike Felber Says:

    Married…I remember that. Those in that “rotation” tend to get more action than single guys, & studies show on AVERAGE married guys are happier. But best not to depend upon any state, married or single, for happiness. Not that I would not like a GF.

  745. Cameron Says:

    I’m happily single right now. If only because I’ve attracted some real crazy people when I did look for relationships.

  746. Chuck Says:

    Unemployed and living with your cousin.

    Being single isn’t a choice.

  747. Chuck Says:

    I don’t know how old you were when you were divorced, Mike, but you’re opinion of “action” at our age now isn’t much different than being single.

    If you want it, you just have to work harder.

    I remember working and being single in New York when I was in my early 20’s.

    It was easier to get free, head exploding sex than a cab.

  748. Cameron Says:

    Weren’t you also in your 20s in like, the 70s?

  749. Cameron Says:

    You know what I’m surprised at? Nobody here mentioned how the NCAA switched over to being a wood bat league. I didn’t even know that until the draft. That’s something that exposed the overvaluing of A LOT of college talent, as it started to look like 1968 from an offensive standpoint in college. I think college hitting is going to be much less of a commodity in the future than it used to be.

  750. Raul Says:

    I think the NCAA moved to wooden bats (or at least bats that perform like wood) last year.

    And I think Chuck made mention of it because seemed to expose Anthony Rendon…or something like that.

  751. Raul Says:

    Boston pitching prospect Matt Barnes has 81 strikeouts in 60 innings so far.
    Another month or so, but he should be in AA soon..but probably stay at that level for a year.

  752. Cameron Says:

    From all the game tape of draft prospects I saw Raul, they were wood bats. it’s easy to tell wood and aluminum apart just from the sound.

  753. Mike Felber Says:

    When married it may be easy, whether satisfying or not is an open question. Camron is right-you may have also had good skills in that dept. but it was a completely different, more libertine, pre absolutely any known AIDS era then.

    But I’ll throw ya a bone(r). My friend Luciano makes some of the best ‘Za in the city across the street from me. Former boxer, getting back into it. He just told me a stronger version of what i have been saying-the old timers in (I believe legendary Gleason’s gym, guys who go back to the ’30s, say Shavers easily hit the hardest of anyone.

    But what you really want to hear: that Tyson was quite overrated. Big PR campaign, well hand selected opponents, did not fight great competition. Lou was heartbroken, he worships Tyson. For you, who thinks Iron Mike could not beat a tough Kindergartener, this must be music to your ears.

  754. Chuck Says:

    NCAA is not a wood bat league

  755. Chuck Says:

    I used to work with a guy who was a former lightweight, up and coming kid, lost his career due to an injury and ended up a sparring partner for Sugar Ray Leonard.

    They ended up being friends and he told me Tyson hated to box, he loved to HIT people and he loved to lift weights, but the rest he hated.

    He’d show up at the ring drunk, if he showed up at all. Most of what he won in the ring went to pay fines and legal bills because he owed everybody money from having to bail him out or pay someone off.

    But, yes, what your friend told you is common, Tyson spent the first few years of his career fighting marshmallows, got himself the title, and the first time he fought someone who could actually fight, he got his ass kicked.

    Arguably the most overrated fighter any weight class.

  756. Raul Says:

    Nobody thinks Mike Tyson is the greatest heavyweight ever.
    But he doesn’t get any credit, either. And that’s what bothers me.

    Anyone who starts talking about Tyson not fighting anyone good, I mean who did he duck on his way to the top? If he was fighting cherry-picked tomato cans, where are all these fighters that should have beaten him?

    Holyfield…yeah…after Tyson did time in prison and was surrounded by all the wrong people.

    Same goes for when Douglas beat him.

    If you’re going to compare the talent in the Heavyweight Division to the 1970s, Tyson was never going to fight anyone that would have allowed people to consider him an all-time great…even if Cus had lived another 5 or 6 years and Tyson kept on winning.

    At best, Tyson could have had a career like Roy Jones Jr: Great talent. Beat everyone. But won’t ever get respect because he didn’t have the competitors that men in other divisions had.

    In Ring Magazine’s list of the 100 Greatest Punchers of All Time, Earnie Shavers ranks 10th. Sonny Liston is 15th.

    I would have thought Liston would be higher than him. And I’d read rumors that Liston was paid to take a dive on the Ali fights.

    Joe Louis ranks #1.
    Tyson sits at #16.

  757. Raul Says:

    I don’t buy that shit about Tyson not liking to box for a second.
    The man owns tons of boxing videos of fighters going back decades that he’d watch for hours. The man arguably knows as much about the history of the sport as anyone.

    He’s just a bonehead.

    Check out that documentary James Toback did.

  758. Raul Says:

    So here’s my fantasy baseball dilemma for next week.

    I have 5 starting pitchers going.

    Jeff Samardzija vs Boston
    Matt Cain vs Houston
    Ricky Romero vs Philadelphia
    Yu Darvish vs Arizona
    RA Dickey @ Tampa Bay

    On the bench I’ve got:

    Gio Gonzalez vs New York Yankees
    Jarrod Parker vs San Diego

    I’m thinking Parker vs the Padres is a safer bet than Romero vs the Phillies…even though Parker has no track record.

    And I’m wondering if starting Samardzija against Boston is safer than Gonzalez against the Yankees.

  759. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree with most all of what you write Raul. He may have had the problems Chuck described-though things can get magnified not only 2nd hand, but by original sources-but early on before Cus died & Don King got his pscyhotic paws on him, Tyson worked very hard.

    He just did not have great foes to fight in his prime. But how bad they are can be exaggerated. Some were good by Any reasonable standard. Berbick, James “Quick” Tillis, Bonecrusher, Green, Holmes was not ancient…Marciano had a similar quality of opponents, the best ones older, especially for that age-I believe just a couple over 200 lbs. too.

    I do not know what RIng Magazine considered as qualifying for “greatest” punchers. Guys like Shavers, Lyle, Cooney, Williams…may have been amongst or at the very top in 1 type of punch, or 1 punch power, but that is very different from a SUSTAINED & skillful attack. Let alone defense & stamina.

  760. Cameron Says:

    He’s actually gotten a lot (at least seemingly) more intelligent and calmed his ass down since retirement. Really into poetry now, too.

  761. Cameron Says:

    Bench Samardzija and Romero. Parker is good and going up against a crap offense and Gio is a bery good pitcher. Samardzija is against one of the best offenses in the league, so it’s a bad play, and Romero is alright and Philly ain’t great, but I like the upside of Parker’s start better.

  762. Raul Says:

    In case you’re wondering, I’ll share the list (generated in 2003):

    1. Joe Louis
    2. Sam Langford
    3. Jimmy Wilde
    4. Archie Moore
    5. Sandy Saddler
    6. Stanley Ketchell
    7. Jack Dempsey
    8. Bob Fitzsimmons
    9. George Foreman
    10. Earnie Shavers
    11. Sugar Ray Robinson
    12. Ruben Olivares
    13. Wilfredo Gomez
    14. Rocky Marciano
    15. Sonny Liston
    16. Mike Tyson
    17. Bob Foster
    18. Thomas Hearns
    19. Khaosai Galaxy
    20. Alexis Arguello
    21. Carlos Zarate
    22. Max Baer
    23. Rocky Graziano
    24. Matthew Saad Muhammad
    25. Julian Jackson
    26. Danny Lopez
    27. Gerald McClellan
    28. Roberto Duran
    29. Rodrigo Valdez
    30. Felix Trinidad
    31. Pipino Cuevas
    32. Jim Jefferies
    33. Lennox Lewis
    34. Bennie Briscoe
    35. Marvin Hagler
    36. Edwin Rosario
    37. Tommy Ryan
    38. John Mugabi
    39. Joe Frazier
    40. Carlos Monzon
    41. Tony Zale
    42. Michael Spinks
    43. Joe Gans
    44. Elmer Ray
    45. George Godfrey
    46. Naseem Hamed
    47. Alfonso Zamora
    48. David Tua
    49. Cleveland Williams
    50. Julio Cesar Chavez

  763. Raul Says:

    51. Tiger Jack Fox
    52. Joe Walcott
    53. Gerry Cooney
    54. Al (Bummy) Davis
    55. Max Schmeling
    56. Florentino Fernandez
    57. Henry Armstrong
    58. Bob Satterfield
    59. Al Hostak
    60. Jesus Pimentel
    61. Eugene (Cyclone) Hart
    62. Lew Jenkins
    63. Harry Wills
    64. Tom Sharkey
    65. Terry McGovern
    66. Jersey Joe Walcott
    67. Kostya Tszyu
    68. Leotis Martin
    69. Buddy Baer
    70. Donovan (Razor) Ruddock
    71. Jose Luis Ramirez
    72. Tommy Gomez
    73. Jose Napoles
    74. Kid McCoy
    75. Antonio Esparragoza
    76. Ricardo Moreno
    77. Evander Holyfield
    78. Ike Williams
    79. Luis Firpo
    80. Ricardo Lopez
    81. Humberto Gonzalez
    82. Bobby Chacon
    83. Jock McAvoy
    84. Eduardo Lausse
    85. Eder Jofre
    86. Charley Burley
    87. Mike McCallum
    88. Salvador Sanchez
    89. Roy Jones Jr.
    90. Rodolfo Gonzalez
    91. Nigel Benn
    92. (Irish) Bob Murphy
    93. Paul Berlenbach
    94. Battling Torres
    95. Chalky Wright
    96. George (K.O.) Chaney
    97. Andy Ganigan
    98. Fred Fulton
    99. Ingemar Johansson
    100. Charley White

  764. Raul Says:

    The Mariners threw a No Hitter…sort of. It took six pitchers to get it done.

    The biggest shock? Jesus Montero was the catcher.
    I guess it shines on a dog’s ass once in a while…

  765. Cameron Says:

    Hey, combined no-nos still count according to the record books. I think this is the record for most pitchers used. I know Houston had one with four, but never seen a six-man no-no.

  766. Cameron Says:

    I just realized a couple of interesting facts about no-hitters.

    1. The frequency curve for perfect games has SKYROCKETED. Prior to the start of the 2009 season, there were only 17 perfect games on record. We’ve had four in the past four years. In the 108 years in the modern era between the first no-hitter (Cy Young, 1904) and the most recent (Phil Humber, 2012), there’s been about 19% of the total perfect games thrown in 3% of the timespan. That’s a mathematical anomaly if ever I’ve seen it.

    2. The Seattle Mariners have both no-hit and been no-hit. Has that ever happened to a team in the same season?

  767. Cameron Says:

    @754 So was it just some conferences then? I saw a lot of red flags in reports on draft day about players whose offenses dropped off after switching to wood bats.

  768. Raul Says:

    Pitch counts are such a big deal, that it prompted Mets manager Terry Collins to take blame for Johan Santana’s poor outing tonight.

    …because it’s not like the New York Fucking Yankees are good at baseball or anything.

  769. Cameron Says:

    They’re good at winning, but I wouldn’t say they’re good at baseball. In a couple years, they probably won’t even be good at that.

    Oh wait, Evan Longoria’s contract runs out in 2014. You think A-Rod will be retired by then?

  770. Mike Felber Says:

    Interesting Cameron. I wonder if it is mere coincidence, leaving the steroid era would not be nearly enough.

    Again, greatest punchers is ambiguous. I suppose it means most effective overall, basically skilled & excellent at KOs, not necessarily hardest hitters at all, & not defense. I have no idea if it is a very good list. But many great fighters are left out. Ali was not a huge hitter, but had tremendous speed, jab, crosses & combinations. Holmes had great skill & left jab. They both counter-punched great.

    They belong nowhere on the list, but Michael Spinks is #42?! Raul, does that sound Kosher to you?

  771. Cameron Says:

    I think it’s probably coincidence, Mike. However, all four of the post-Mitchell Report perfectos came in this last four season period. It is a bit odd. Though I think I’ll most likely chalk it up to “shit happens”. No-hitters have become a lot more frequent I think in the past few years because a lot of hitters are still using a “swing or miss” mindset like the steroid era but largely without the same degree of enhancement, so less contact and power can lead to the no-hitter frequency.

    But to chalk that alone to nearly one fifth all perfect games in that span? That seems pretty flimsy just from the sheer volume.

  772. Mike Felber Says:

    Those are good suppositions Cam. That & recall that better gloves & athleticism has made perfect games more likely compared to much of baseball history.

  773. Cameron Says:

    I’m not sure how much that holds up Mike, because that better athleticism also translates to better defense, but also better base-runners. If anything, a more athletic game instead of station-to-station ball would most likely hurt the chances for a perfect game than anything else. The 50s and 60s featured a more station-to-staion game and there were 3 perfectos in that time, and the 90s was a bit more station-to-station due to the focus on power hitting (and the only big base stealer I can think of then was Rickey) and there were four on the decade, plus another in 2004 in largely the play style.

  774. Raul Says:

    With any list, people will have disagreements.

    Michael Spinks at #42 sticks out.
    But not as much as Joe Frazier being down to 39.

    I once had a friend tell me that ESPN’s All-Century list was nonsense because of Joe Frazier. According to his father, when Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier were about to fight the Thrilla in Manila, it was such a huge event that the winner would likely be crowned the best fighter of the century. Maybe so, maybe not. But Ali wins the fight and ends up 3rd on ESPN’s list. Joe Frazier didn’t even make the list. One hundred athletes, and Joe Frazier isn’t on the list.

    Damn shame.

  775. Raul Says:

    I actually think Muhammad Ali is the most overrated fighter ever.
    He constantly said he was the greatest, so everyone believes it and hardly anybody could name another great boxer.

    When Burt Sugar ranked his greatest fighters, Ali came in 7th.

  776. Patrick Says:

    You guys are forgetting Armando Galarraga’s perfecto that wasn’t. If not for a umpire brain fart, that’s another in the past couple of years. Given Beltran’s “hit” off of Santana, it’s hard to get my head around Johan having a no-no and Armando not.

    Tyson did his early boxing close to where I used to live. He was the talk of the town. His discoverer, Bobby Stewart, 2 blocks from me. He was a former Golden Glove winner and worked at Tryon School For Boys in Johnstown, NY, as a counselor, which was really a prison guard. He taught Tyson to box when Mike was about 15.

    What I’ve heard is, when he was young, Tyson loved to box and he worked hard at it, couldn’t get another. It’s hard to say if he fought creampuffs or he turned good boxers into creampuffs. He was the best inside puncher I’ve ever seen.

    I’m not going to argue that he’s an alltime great because he fell apart. He didn’t attack Douglas like he did every other opponent up until then. I don’t know if he lost his heart or what, but he was never the same. Maybe Douglas just did a good job keeping him outside.

    If they were around in the 80’s, probably those Russian bros would’ve killed him though. They are a couple of tough dudes.

  777. Patrick Says:

    Joe Frazier turned Ali’s brain to jelly. He was similar to Tyson except Frazier had HEART and a left hook. Easily a top ten fighter of alltime.

  778. Patrick Says:

    *”Tyson loved to box and he worked hard at it, couldn’t get another”
    that’s supposed to be “couldn’t get enough”. I must be still bummed that “I’ll Have Another” is scratched. Also, Stewart LIVED 2 blocks from me. I should proff read.

  779. Bob Says:

    Thomas Hearns at 18 while Hagler is at 35 sticks out to me. I saw their fight.

  780. Raul Says:

    In a lot of ways, styles make fights. And sometimes physical attributes make fights.

    Look, the Klitschko brothers are 7-footers. And they’re not tomato cans. They’re quality fighters.

    Tyson is 5′10, maybe. It’s not hard to see the disparity.

    I actually think height is the main reason Floyd Mayweather is undefeated. His entire career is based off of avoiding the best fighters in their primes and the fact that he refuses to fight anyone taller than him.

    He never fought anyone of any quality until he barely beat a washed up De La Hoya. He beat Miguel Cotto. Great. One guy. And Cotto gave him the worst beating of his career.

    He could have fought Paul Williams. Didn’t.
    He could have fought Erik Morales. Didn’t.
    He could have fought Marco Antonio Barrera. Didn’t.
    He could have fought Shane Mosley. Didn’t — until Mosley was washed up.
    He won’t fight Sergio Martinez.
    He made a 36-year old Marquez come up in weight, and then showed up overweight.

    His shoulder roll is great, and he’s skill defensively. But that shoulder roll only works when you’re roughly even in height or are taller than your opponent.

    If Floyd tries that shoulder roll shit on someone like Paul Williams (he can’t, Williams is paralyzed now), a guy with Williams’ height can just punch over it.

    That’s why I think he’d beat Manny Pacquiao. Floyd is a skilled fighter, but Manny is naturally like a 125-pound fighter, and even today should probably be in the mid-130s. And Manny isn’t going to have the punching angles to catch Floyd with anything flush.

  781. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox added Dice-K to their roster. The Red Sox also subtracted Marlon Byrd from their roster.

  782. Raul Says:

    Marlon Byrd has Victor Conte as his trainer.
    I guess Conte isn’t looking so great without the cream and the clear.

  783. Bob Says:

    Therefore, neither was Byrd.

  784. Raul Says:

    The Mets agreed to terms with first-round draft pick Gavin Cecchini for a $2.3 million signing bonus

  785. Jim Says:

    A conversation to be held before the trade deadline regarding Dice-K if he get lit up during his starts over the next month.

    Ben Cherington: Scott, we’re looking to trade Dice-K, thought you should know that.

    Scott Boras: Ben, I don’t think I need to remind you that Dice has a no trade contract. If you want to trade him to get his permission he needs an extension and a raise.

    Ben: Fine, then we’ll designate him for assignment.

  786. Chuck Says:

    What does Tyson watching 30 year old videos have to do with boxing?

    My friend said Tyson’s boxing mentality was to get in the ring and hit the other guy as hard as he could and end the fight as early as he could.

    Part of his philosophy in ending fights by the fifth round was Tyson not liking to run and didn’t have the stamina to go much longer than that.

    There’s a difference between fighting and boxing.

    Unfortunately, Tyson never learned that difference.

  787. Chuck Says:

    Raul is right, of course, regardless of sport, you’re only as good as your competition.

    There were more “greats” in the 1060’s than any other era, IMO, who don’t even get a mention because it was a pitcher’s era.

    Same with boxing, from the mid-fifties to the mid-seventies, there were guys who were GREAT heavyweights who likely would have held titles in any other era but who get no respect because there were ten peers better than they were.

    For the first 80 years of this century, boxing was dominated by heavyweights. There were enough legends at lower classes, Pep, LaMotta, Robinson, etc to keep attention on the entire sport, but the Sullivans, Johnsons, Dempseys, Louis’, Marciano’s of the world is why boxing was so popular.

    For the last 35 years, or since the end of the Larry Holmes era, the heavyweight division has been a complete fucking joke, and it’s been the lower weight class guys like Hearns and Hagler and Leonard and de la Hoya and Jones who have kept the sport alive.

    RIP Heavyweight Division.

  788. Raul Says:

    Turns out I was wrong about Daniel Hudson…at least last night.
    He got rocked.

  789. Jim Says:

    @786 True, but Tyson was a hell of a puncher

    @787 Yes the heavyweight division is a joke. The lower weight classes kept boxing alive, but now the sport has lost out the variations on ‘tough man” brawling. Fans of boxing once understood the sport in the same manner that best fans of *.*ball sports do, now the ‘fan’ is only interested in the spectacle.

  790. Raul Says:

    “Oh, they recognize where Appel and Boras are coming from. This was a guy staring at a $7.2 million slot with the No. 1 pick — and no doubt figuring that, in the end, he’d get more than that. Now he finds himself drafted by a team working with a $6.56 million pool to sign its top 11 picks combined.

    And you have to understand that the penalties imposed by the new rules mean the Pirates won’t even think about exceeding that limit. You might think that, in the end, they could decide, “Aw, what the heck,” and offer Appel a hefty enough deal to bring their total, for those 11 picks, to $7.5 million. That doesn’t sound too outrageous, right? But here’s why that’ll never happen:

    Because they would then lose their first-round picks in each of the next two drafts, get hit with a million-dollar fine and forfeit all their revenue-sharing money. That’s all.”

  791. Bob Says:

    Appel got smashed yesterday. In a weak draft, he still could have been overrated.

  792. Mike Felber Says:

    The litc hko’s? One 6′ 6″, one barely taller. They are not near 7′. The active champion is likely not as tough as his brother, who has back problems. But though his style is very effective, it is not felt that his telephone poll jab would be enough to keep the best much shorter fighters away. Yes, the best possible fighters do not go into the sport, & huys are bigger, not on average as tough.

    Tyson is likely his listed 5′ 11 1/2 “. I thought so when I met him. He fights taller men, crouching, & is very bulky, so looks shorter. Tyson did run & train hard for a few years. He knew how to box well, moved very fast, had a very good defense. Getting guys out early was his responsibility & made perfect sense. He did study the greats & near greats obsessively.

    At most Ali is slightly overrated. In the ’70’s he needed to cheat with clinching, & occ. favorable decisions, to be quite as dominant. Then he was only as good as the very best HW, but in the golden age of HW. During his peak though, ‘64-’67, he was likely better than anyone. That this is even possible without great power in the power division is astonishing. Watch him against Cleveland Williams. His speed, skill, elusiveness was Legion.

  793. Mike Felber Says:

    Tyson did go the distance against a bunch of fighters & win the decisions. His endurance was not so bad, foreman’s was worse during his prime. Though I would slightly favor Foreman overall. I do not think that the best HWs were there from the mid ’50’s, Marciano ducked nobody, & he did not have great in their prime HWs to fight. Neither did many of the best come along shortly after he retired. But mo’ better ones starting in the mid ’60’s.

  794. Raul Says:

    @ Bob

    You might be right.

    So what happens if Pittsburgh doesn’t sign Appel? They get a supplemental round pick?

  795. Bob Says:

    I think so.

  796. Bob Says:

    Actually, it may be a first-round pick. Trying to verify it. Perhaps tomorrow.

  797. JohnBowen Says:

    Ok, 800 comments. Wrote a Daily Discussion about the Tigers, sorry articles have been slow…

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