by Chuck


Texas over Baltimore

St. Louis over Atlanta

Division Series


Yankees over Texas in five

Oakland over Detroit in four


Washington over St. Louis in five

Cincinnati over San Francisco in five


New York over Oakland in six


Cincinnati over Washington in seven

World Series

Cincinnati over New York in six

412 Responses to “Predictions”

  1. Bob Says:

    1.Baltimore over NY
    2.Detroit Over Oakland
    3.Washington over. St Louis
    4.Cincinnati over San Fran

    Round 2
    Detroit over Baltimore
    Washington over Cincinnati

    I will say Washington, though rooting for the Tigers.

  2. Raul Says:

    Well, Texas is out.

    So the only remaining team I hate is St. Louis.
    If the Yankees don’t win it, I hope Oakland does.

  3. Cameron Says:

    Well, guess I’m cheatin’ a bit since I came in after the playoff.

    New York over Baltimore (3 Games)
    Detroit over Oakland (4 Games)
    Washington over St. Louis (3 Games)
    Cincinnati over San Francisco (5 Games)

    Detroit over New York (6 Games)
    Washington over Cincinnati (5 Games)

    Detroit over Washington (7 Games)

    And of course, these predictions came directly out of my ass.

  4. Chuck Says:

    Terry Francona will be named new Indians manager on Monday.

  5. Raul Says:

    That isn’t the job for Francona.

    Between the Tigers’ money and the Royals’ farm system, Cleveland won’t be contending for a long time.

  6. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not have a confident idea who will win most rounds, so will refrain. I did link some relevant video in the last threads for your collective delectation.

  7. Mike Felber Says:

    Cameron, how are things, including your new job?

  8. Mike Felber Says:

    Some A’s have a too sensitive Ego.

  9. Chuck Says:

    #6..not surprising.

    Plans are for live Tweeting from the press box in Surprise for the AFL home opener on Wednesday.

    Game starts at 3:35PM EST..hopefully I’ll get there early enough to post lineups and stuff, but since it’s Day one there’s always a my credentials being there before me.

  10. Mike Felber Says:

    Not surprising due to me not presuming to know who will win the rounds, or that the vast majority are wrong about these things anyway, & I at least “know what I do not know”, Rumsfeld’s “known unknowns”? I will take curtain #2, applause for my wise humility. :-)

  11. Bob Says:

    jim Tracy is no longer the Rockies manager.

  12. Raul Says:

    Yankees fans are losing their shit.
    Personally it’s not so much because they lost, but because so many of their hitters are grossly underperforming.

  13. Chuck Says:

    I was watching the game last night and after the third inning I wished I could grab a bat.

    That Chen dude was throwing marshmallows.

    Guys like that always give the Yanks trouble because they refuse to make adjustments.

    Jeter does, Ichiro does, Martin did. Everyone else was acting like it was Randy fucking Johnson on the mound.

    Move up in the box and take his movement fucking hard is that to figure out?

    (Sorry, Mike)

  14. John Says:

    Seriously, what percentage of Chen’s pitches are fastballs? Like 92%? It was baffling. These are the most expensive hitters in the game. Come on now.

  15. Raul Says:

    Yankees were acting like they had no idea what was coming.
    Those hitters could have been told they had a 92% chance of winning at roulette and still would have hit on green.

  16. Bob Says:

    Alex Karras passed away. RIP

  17. Raul Says:

    Forgot all about him.
    Btw, as …hmm…racially controversial as it may have been, Blazing Saddles was still hilarious.

    RIP Webster’s dad.

  18. Raul Says:

    Now the Derek Jeter ass-kissers are in a fit over Pete Rose saying Jeter won’t get all time hits record.

    Well, what the hell is the problem? Rose is right.
    It’s simple math.

  19. Bob Says:

    Jeter should probably retire after the 2014 season.

  20. Raul Says:

    Agreed Bob.

    Well, I don’t know how you guys feel about Jim Kaat and Bob Costas. But I happen to love Kaat in the booth. And frankly these two guys doing the Cardinals/Nationals game is a lot more enjoyable for me than those clowns they had doing the TBS games.

  21. Bob Says:

    Who does not like Costas? And thanks for reminding me the game is on.

  22. Raul Says:

    Yup. Looks like a great atmosphere in Washington today.

  23. Mike Felber Says:

    No problem Chuck, I took it as a good natured jibe.

    Rose is correct. Only way Jeter might be able to do it is stay around at Rose’s level of production in his last 6 years, + be a DH. Neither Jeter nor the Yankees would want that, & compared to whoever they could put in that spot, it would cost them a few to a bunch of wins a year.

    Costas is a skilled & diligent interviewer too.

  24. Chuck Says:

    First press box gossip of the year;

    “Rangers don’t want Hamilton back even if he would play for free”.

  25. Bob Says:

    Part of me believes that. See if they offer him arbitration. That will be the telltale sign.

  26. Mike Felber Says:

    Oh Pharmstrong, We Hardly Knew Ye.

  27. Chuck Says:

    “No problem Chuck, I took it as a good natured jibe.”

    It’s true, so why would it be a problem?

  28. Chuck Says:


    Old news, no one cares.

  29. Raul Says:

    So it comes down to 1 game for the Nationals.

    No pressure, Rizzo.

  30. Chuck Says:

    I hope they lose.

    This whole Strasburg thing might be the dumbest decision ever.

    I can’t fathom how a guy with Rizzo’s background can make a decision like this that could have a long-term financial impact on the franchise, not to mention costing himself a ring.

    I’ve talked to him a couple of times going back to his Dbacks days and he was always nice to me and willing to chat for a second and I really don’t wish him any negative reactions to this, but he made the decision and he needs to stand up when it bombs on him.

  31. Raul Says:

    Tough news for Joe Girardi. His father passed away.

    Looks like the Giants are holding on to this 6-3 lead.
    But with Reds offense, anything can happen.

  32. Raul Says:

    Former Royals pitcher Jeremy Affeldt with a huge out on Ryan Ludwick as the Giants preserve a 6-3 lead.

  33. Mike Felber Says:

    I said it was not a problem. Replying to you saying “Sorry Mike”.

    No, there is much “new news”: The extent of the doping, the amount of people testifying against Lance, esp. on his team, & how he insisted & bullied others to use drugs to stay on the team, + the sordid details of where, how, & the extent of other’s involvement, especially medical personnel, in a high tech cover-up. That is why it was the lead story in the NY Times today. Many care, & as indicated by commentary & tracking the frequency of that story e-mailed.

  34. Chuck Says:

    Well, my WS winner just took a facial.

  35. Chuck Says:

    “Many care, & as indicated by commentary & tracking the frequency of that story e-mailed.”

    So, were you attempting to post on the NYT article and came here in error? Because that’s the only acceptable excuse otherwise.

    It’s sports. It’s relevant because it’s sports, but I can assure you no one HERE gives a shit about some drugged out bike rider.

  36. Mike Felber Says:

    What are you talking about? I did not post the NY Times article, & others have commented about & bemoaned drugs in many sports, & been interested in things like this. You basically admitted it is relevant, then said nobody cares. Most all care about this issue here. I do not know how why you say that, it was submitted for interest & information.

    Perfectly fine, & folks might say nothing whether interested or not. Why try to give me a hard time for contributing?

  37. Chuck Says:

    “Most all care about this issue here”

    No, we don’t.

    “Why try to give me a hard time for contributing?”

    Your playoff picks would have been a contribution.

    This is not.

    All I said is it’s old news and no one cares, both of which are undoubtedly true.

    I wasn’t trying to badger you into a response..especially considering the comment spoke for itself and didn’t warrant a response to begin with.

    “Baiting the fish”

  38. Mike Felber Says:

    You have given no evidence that nobody cares, & I showed how many have written at length about PEDs, & in other sports sometimes.

    You did not address the paragraph where I showed how the news about the issue is new on several counts: which is why it is front page headlines.

    My playoff picks would have been a contribution directly to the topic of the article. there may have never been a thread here-perhaps if you looked hard for an old one where few responded-where folks confined themselves to the topic, & nobody minds other sports comments.

    Don’t you think that you should get a better hobby than baiting me Chuck? I mean, I do not even mind that it violates your stricture of being directly relevant to sports. But it seems at least a mildly cruel impulse, & is not fully honest: if you are saying things to just get a response or irritate another, that is not authentic communication.

  39. Chuck Says:

    What a great at-bat by Jay Bruce..goddamn.

  40. Raul Says:

    Definitely was.
    But the Giants take it.

    Romo sucks tho.

  41. Chuck Says:

    “Don’t you think that you should get a better hobby than baiting me Chuck?”’s fun.

    The other day was intentional and I gave my reason why..bad day at the issues..needed to do something to kill time other than staring at a blank screen.

    Today, there was no intent..however, since you’re ALLOWING me to bait you..why not?

    Don’t like being baited?

    Stop taking it.

  42. Chuck Says:

    Jeter DH’ing tonite, ARod hitting fifth.

  43. Raul Says:

    I honestly don’t give a damn about Arod in the lineup.
    What pisses me off is that nobody mentions how fucking bad Granderson is. And that nobody is calling for his head. Or bat.

    But yeah. Strikeouts don’t mean shit…

  44. Chuck Says:

    He hit, what, 8th the other day?

    A guy with 43 bombs hitting 8th.

    I don’t think Rob Deer ever hit eighth.

  45. Bob Says:

    Probably because he hit 9th

  46. Raul Says:

    Lol Bob.

  47. Chuck Says:

    I did not see one pitch of the Yankee game yesterday. Matter of fact, I didn’t see one pitch of any game.

    Planning on that changing tonite.

  48. Mike Felber Says:

    It is impossible to know when you are being sincere & saying something that makes no sense-like there was no “intent”, when by definition baiting is intentional, you must mean no particular identifiable cause-& when not.
    Besides not being so nice & not sincere sports talk when you purport to want that currently…DO you REALLY have nothing better to do? Family, friends, hobbies-even just surfing the web, looking up interesting topics, researching things, hell even Internet porn-this is the best you can do for “fun”?

    And you think this is great for keeping the peace & good relations to, hmm? So really, it is just better than say, heavy drinking & drugs, which are more destructive. Pretty low bar.

  49. Raul Says:

    Yankees game was terrible. Can’t hit with anyone on base.

    I’ll say this though…
    Manny Machado wasn’t very impressive in the minors this year. But he is holding his own since being called up.
    He won’t have a Mike Trout-like explosion in 2013. But he’ll be good.

  50. Raul Says:

    This Nats game shaping up to be dramatic

    1-1 top 7

  51. Mike Felber Says:

    It is funny how a few who are only OK in the minors can be good in the bigs, when some who excel in the minors cannot stick in MLB. The 2nd instance is more understandable, but what is the biggest reason for the 1st phenomena at least?

  52. Lefty33 Says:

    @44- Just to be a dick I’ll point out that Deer had 248 PA’s hitting 8th.

    He also hit leadoff once in a game in ‘93.
    He went 1 for 3 naturally with 2K’s and a dinger.

  53. Chuck Says:

    Thank-you Lefty. :)

  54. Chuck Says:

    Saw Cody Asche play the other day, Lefty..kid looks like a player. Phillies may not have to worry much about 3B in a year or so.

  55. Raul Says:

    Well, I have to say that after watching Nick Swisher, A-Rod and Curtis Granderson in the playoffs…I really miss Luis Sojo and his .257 playoff batting average.

    Compared to those bums lately, .257 might as well be .600.

  56. Chuck Says:

    It was really interesting listening to Ripken and Smoltz last night ripping guys like Reynolds, Davis, ARod, Swisher and Granderson for trying to be heros with one swing instead of trying to get on base.

    I think it was Ripken in about the 11th inning who said, “this game should have been over long ago”.

  57. Raul Says:

    When I saw A-Rod strike out on 85 mph fastballs I picked up my glove and started getting loose.
    Thought I might get the call from Buck Showalter

  58. Chuck Says:

    RIP Champ Summers

  59. Chuck Says:

    I picked up a my bat..bummer, though..Eric Chavez was already at the ballpark.

  60. Bob Says:

    Ditto 58

  61. Chuck Says:

    ARod benched, Chavez at third, Ibanez DH.

  62. Mike Felber Says:

    Probably is best to bench A-Rod. And they do need to go beyond the all or nothing approach.

  63. Raul Says:

    If A-Rod learned anything from this benching, he’ll be in the cage working on his swing and looking at video.

    Because he’s clearly not approaching hitting the right way.

  64. Lefty33 Says:

    @54- Good to hear because the phaithful are foaming at the mouth for him to be ready for opening day in ‘14 so that Amaro can fake it with a one year patch job at 3B next year.

    The continued rumors about a multi-year deal to Youk or further farm system liquidation for Headley are troubling at best and retarded at best.

  65. Raul Says:

    Serves the Nats right to lose.

  66. Mike Felber Says:

    That’s Phillie phaithful phinally phully phoaming phor phourteen while Asche is on the pharm & Amaro phakes it, right Lefty?

  67. Chuck Says:

    At the Salt River/Surprise game.

    Occasional tweets for the next couple of hours if interested.

  68. Chuck Says:

    RIP Dugout Central.

  69. Bob Says:

    People are just watching the games more closely, instead of commenting. Perhaps worried about the status of Jeter. Once the Series is over and hot sove crap gets brewing, there will be some more commentary.

  70. Chuck Says:

    I wish that were true, Bob, but unfortunately the inevitable is starting.

    There have been five “articles” written since August first, and a couple of them were slapped together because the existing thread was getting to big to follow.

    There are two writers here and both of us have gotten busy/distracted with other things..unfortunately at the same time.

    I’ve been here since almost since the site started and I feel bad that I’m partially responsible for the pending demise, but I can’t do anything about it at present.

    There’s plenty to talk about, just not enough people to keep things fresh.

  71. Bob Says:

    You and John are not remotely responsible for its demise. This should be unanimous.

  72. Chuck Says:

    I haven’t written anything..anywhere..since July, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

    On the other hand, it doesn’t take much effort to put up a couple paragraphs on relevant things like the Red Sox managerial search or Robinson Cano’s continued suckitude which he conveniently covers up with the occasional two run homers in 8-1 ballgames.

    I know no one cares about the AFL and that’s where my time will be spent until Thanksgiving, but I will do what I can to at least post a newsflash once in awhile.

  73. Raul Says:

    Cano won’t be worth the long term contract he’s seeking.
    Swisher sealed his fate with his post-game comments about the fans and his performance in October.
    Jeter will retire after next season.
    Ibanez will be gone.
    Martin will be gone.
    Pettitte will retire.
    Kuroda doesn’t even enjoy pitching and he probably won’t be back.
    Granderson shouldn’t be retained, though he might be.
    Arod stinks.
    Teixeira isn’t proving to be worth 180 million but he can’t go anywhere.

    Face it. This team just isn’t well constructed. Too pull-heavy. Too HR-or-bust.

    The best thing for them to do might be to hope Mike Rizzo gets fired and offer him either Cashman’s job, or a head scout job for like 2 million so he can build up the Yankees farm system. Just don’t let him decide how much pitchers pitch.

    Ok that suggestion was a bit of a joke.

  74. Chuck Says:

    I wouldn’t give him big money either. To me, he’s the same as David Wright.

    Good players, but not $20 million players.

  75. Chuck Says:

    I saw this on Twitter the other day..

    “For 2013, Mike Rizzo is toying with the idea of shutting down Bryce Harper when he gets to 25 homers”.

    Cracked up at that one.

  76. Mike Felber Says:

    Considering the available resources, we are doing much better than the Yankees! I suggest that when we get more regular articles-nobody can be blamed for the lack now-then we each reach out to other forums & invite the groups & indivuiduals to join us & comment.

  77. Chuck Says:

    Seem to remember hearing that song before.

  78. Bob Says:

    I can always type a bullshit article, like the Sox should not part with any sort of compensation for a manager. Or I can just make a comment. How many comments does that opinion get?

    See you guys tomorrow.

  79. Chuck Says:

    I agree, not sure why John Farrell would want to go back to that physcho ward.

    At least one, Bob. :)

  80. Bob Says:


  81. Mike Felber Says:

    Let me refresh your memory. I had done so once, tried, & offered to do so again, after you had mocked my lack of success the 1st time. Still I would have done it again if requested. The difference here is I am suggesting that we all do so when we have content to support more regular visitors.

  82. Chuck Says:

    My memory is just fine, Michael.

    Your concern is appreciated, however.

  83. John Says:

    “There are two writers here and both of us have gotten busy/distracted with other things..unfortunately at the same time.

    I’ve been here since almost since the site started and I feel bad that I’m partially responsible for the pending demise, but I can’t do anything about it at present.”

    Yeah, this was never meant to be a personal blog shared by two people. I apologize; maybe I’ll write about my experience at Yankee Stadium or something. For my part, I don’t like the idea of writing an article and not giving it 100% – and that’s tough to do when you’re watching as little baseball as I was for most of last season (through July 20, I think I had watched maybe 20 games). Compare that with 2011 when I was watching like 10 games a week and could keep finding stuff to write about.

    Sometime in the next year, I’ll be stationed with a submarine, and at that point, I’ll literally disappear from the face of the Earth for up to 6 months at a time…so this site’s days are numbered. In the meantime, I’ll have some free time for about a month or so thanks to a backed up training pipeline.

  84. Chuck Says:

    Holy shit, John, that could really suck.

    If you left now and came back in March, then all you’d miss is freezing effin’ cold and snow..big deal.

    But if you left in April and didn’t come back til October, you could miss an entire season.

    I’d be on suicide watch by the All-Star break.

  85. John Says:

    “But if you left in April and didn’t come back til October, you could miss an entire season.”

    I’ve thought about that.

    With my luck, the Brewers will win their first championship ever while I’m under water.

  86. Mike Felber Says:

    So right after we get a little more content here to show, let’s look for a couple of other writers. From more than one paradigm, not merely traditionalists or Saber guys.

  87. John Says:

    Mike – you’re more than welcome to write something and email it to me. I think you’ve written more words on this site than I have as it is :)

  88. Jim Says:

    Hey John, if that sub ends up in Portsmouth for repairs, email me and I’ll buy you a beer.

  89. Chuck Says:

    John’s traveling the world on the government’s nickel, not only that, he gets PAID to ride a sub.

    Fuck buying him a beer..not only is he picking up the restaurant/bar tab, he’s paying for the hookers, too.

    Providing, of course, they are female.

  90. Jim Says:

    Yeah the one legged one who’s working on the side to buy new teeth.

  91. Raul Says:

    Atta boy, Jim.

    Way to set the bar high.

  92. Bob Says:

    The Rockies are going to interview Jason Giambi for their managerial opening. A couple of months ago, I said the Rockies should make a play for Lars Anderson as they should get younger at first base.
    But between the Olymoics, and the Indians snapping up Anderson, the article never came to fruition. Perhaps now I should get off my lard-laden ass and reinvestigate some 1st base options for the Rockies Post-Helton.

  93. Raul Says:

    Wrote it on twitter and will say it again

    It’s disgusting that people who pay their dues in the minors for years are passed over and in many cases not even considered for positions that are being given to men with no managerial experience.

    I don’t give a shit about Matheny’s or Ventura’s success this year.

    The fact that those guys got high profile jobs with large market teams while men like Ryne Sandberg and Willie Randolph play 2nd fiddle does not sit well with me.

  94. Mike Felber Says:

    Yankees are a bit like a bloated empire. Inefficient & not hungry. I doubt they will dig themselves out of the hole.

    John is working very hard & serving the nation. So this liberal will buy you dinner if in NYC. Vices I would not fund, but I dunno he needs to ‘em.

  95. Raul Says:

    Teams in the playoffs don’t lose because of lack of effort or hunger.
    It’s not like the Tigers want it more than the Yankees. And even if that were true, it doesn’t mean anything.

    The teams that win are the ones that have a sound approach and execute. And if that isn’t working, you adjust.

    The Yankees are down 2-0 to Detroit and nearly lost to Baltimore despite receiving some of the best postseason pitching from Yankees pitchers that I have seen in a really long time. They really should have been swept by Baltimore.

    This is a pull-heavy team that strikes out a ton, isn’t hitting with men on base, and swings for the fences no matter what the count, situation or who the pitcher is on the mound.

    Not only will they probably get swept by Detroit. They deserve to be swept by Detroit.

    And if by some miracle they come back, I’ll be shocked.

    And while I’m at it…
    Nick Swisher is a pansy for complaining about the fans.
    And the fans are frigging idiots for suggesting Swisher is to blame for Jeter’s injury.

    The Giants put a smackdown so epic on the 49ers last weekend, Rihanna is probably calling Alex Smith to offer condolences. So Yankees failures aside, it’s not too bad a week.

  96. Bob Says:

    1. ARod and Swisher have been benched.
    2. See you guys tomorrow.

  97. Raul Says:

    I got a call from a relative that Mike Francesa is on the air lamenting the Arod benching because Arod is 4-7 with 2 HR on Verlander this year.

    Also, that Arod is better suited to play SS than Nunez.

    I won’t even comment.

  98. Mike Felber Says:

    I agree with most all you say Raul. And generally I sing the same song re: maximal effort, at least in the PS. But I do not think it is non-existent, this at least occasional variation in drive. Which if it exists, of course can make a difference. Though I could see the case made either way.

    After another event went to a meetup where all watched the debate, then saw the game without sound from inning 8. Verlander hit 99 in the 9th inning, great game, though only 3 Ks. A Yank said the ball was not carrying…

    Amongst those who saw the whole game, how much was it Verlander excellent, how much Yankees sub par?

  99. Chuck Says:

    Olney said on Mike and Mike this morning that 2014 will be ARod’s last season in New York if he doesn’t get his head out of his ass.

    Yanks will pay him off “about 90-95%” of his remaining contract and tell him have a nice life.

  100. Bob Says:

    2014 or 2013?

  101. Chuck Says:


  102. Chuck Says:

    I’m not a big Twitter person, but I have to say last night was pretty funny between the whining about the Yankees and the back and forth on the debate.

  103. Bob Says:

    I actually joined Twitter about a month ago, just to follow a college buddy.

  104. Lefty33 Says:

    @101- Olney said after 2014.

  105. Chuck Says:

    If you have a job, like Olney does, that requires you to be on the internet ten hours a day, then Twitter would be beneficial to’s like a giant instant messaging tool.

    If you’re just a regular guy who is on-line three or four times a week for an hour at a time, then it’s pretty useless.

    Just sitting there, staring at the screen waiting for tweets seems kind of silly to me.

    And forget Facebook, that’s legalized on-line stalking.

  106. Bob Says:

    I agree. Not on Facebook. It is for people who need make-believe friends.

  107. Chuck Says:

    Another pretty decent outing for Betances yesterday.

  108. Raul Says:

    Part of me thinks that it all went downhill for Arod with the Esquire magazine.

    I used to think Alex was wrong for saying what he said about Jeter.
    Whether he was right or wrong abou his comments is completely irrelevant. I think the big mistake Alex made was that he got on his knees and apologized for it.

    In hindsight it was a crushing blow to his arrogance and bravado. The kind of arrogance many athletes need to transcend and dominate in big moments.

    Reggie still thought he was the straw that stirred the drink. Kobe still took shot after shot despite criticism that he was a ball hog. Jeter didn’t give a shit when stats said he was the worst SS in the game.

    Maybe Alex should have told everyone to fuck off about his comments on Jeter. And yeah, he’d be an asshole in a lot of people’s eyes. But he might have maintained that swagger and self-belief that he was THE MAN. And it would have helped him overcome the pressures of delivering in the big moments/big games.

  109. Chuck Says:

    Jeter and ARod used to be really close..they’d go to Florida in the off-season and chase skirts.

    As what usually happens, when one guy gets married and has kids, relationships change, and usually it’s the married guy who realizes it’s his lifestyle that’s different.

    ARod was frustrated because instead of being out at 2 am banging super-models, he was home changing diapers.

    If what was said yesterday about him trying to get phone numbers during the game the other day (I’ve heard the same story many times aobut other guys), then he can kiss my snow white ass.

    I wouldn’t want him as a teammate when he’s more interested in what happens after the game than during..whether he’s in the lineup or not.

  110. Raul Says:

    I don’t think this team comes back vs the Tigers.

    That said, if NY can win tonight…they have a fighter’s chance with Pettitte tomorrow.

    And MAYBE, Kuroda can do something in Game 6.

    Playing hypotheticals here…if somehow NY wins the next two, any chance Leyland has Verlander in bullpen if there is a close Game 6?

  111. Chuck Says:

    Why didn’t Joe pitch CC yesterday on three day’s rest?

  112. Raul Says:

    I don’t know.
    But when your team scores 1 run, did it really fucking matter?

  113. Chuck Says:

    Way to get to the point, Raul.

  114. Raul Says:


    I’m just frustrated with this team. I know Verlander is great. But when you put together a $200M team, you do so PRECISELY to win against pitchers like Justin Verlander.

    Unfortunately I don’t think this sweep costs Girardi his job. Although that would be a nice benefit. I think they wait until Jeter and Rivera are gone first.

  115. Chuck Says:

    The Yanks are a great regular season team, but not a great post-season team.

    They fatten up on the chumps of the league like Boston and Seattle, but have trouble with the better teams, or even teams like Tampa who do things better than the pitch.

    It’s cool they make the postseason and all because it adds a couple of weeks to the season, but on the other side it’s kind of disheartening to see them get their asses kicked once they get there.

    It’s going to be awhile before they see a World Series again,.

  116. Chuck Says:

    Yanks were 45-45 against teams over .500 and 22-25 in one run games.

  117. Raul Says:

    Lol now there’s rumors that the Yankees want to trade Arod to Miami.

  118. Lefty33 Says:

    Keith Olbermann is “reporting” that the Marlins and Yankees have been discussing the basis of a deal involving A-Rod. Supposedly the Yankees would eat his entire contract BUT the Marlins would consider picking up portions of it depending on if the Yankees take some of their toxic contracts.

    Example being if the Yankees take Heath Bell then then the Marlins would pick up $27 of A-Rod’s $114 million.

  119. Raul Says:

    The Marlins agreeing to pay twenty seven dollars of arod’s 114 million seems right. Hahaha

  120. Chuck Says:

    Throw in Stanton and you got a deal.

  121. Raul Says:

    If the Yankees managed to get Giancarlo Stanton it would be the steal of the century.

  122. Chuck Says:

    Even Jeffrey Loria’s not that stupid.

  123. Chuck Says:

    Then again, I bet ARod sells more tickets.

    Miami guy playing in his hometown. You never know.

  124. Raul Says:

    He gave Heath Bell 50 million.
    Let’s not give Loria too much benefit of the doubt.

  125. Raul Says:

    Arod benched again.

    Now I’m thinking he has to be traded. No matter what the costs.
    How can he possibly show his face at the stadium in 2013 now?

  126. Chuck Says:

    How come Beltran came out of the game?

  127. Chuck Says:

    Yeah, this isn’t going to end well..although it’s going to be an interesting off-season.

  128. Raul Says:

    Not sure about Beltran. Just tuned in now.

    Hope the Giants win though.

  129. Lefty33 Says:

    @124- That would actually be Mike Hill the GM, he of the comment about Marlins veterans that included the great line of “and the veterans have crapped all over themselves” who made that signing and that’s why he still stands a decent chance at getting fired along with Larry Beinfest VP of baseball operations.

  130. Raul Says:

    Beltran has knee sprain.
    Turns out Twitter is good for some things.

  131. Chuck Says:

    I know WAR is totally meaningless and after I finish this comment I’m going to pour a shot of rum and take a shower..but did you know Willie Randolph has a higher career WAR than Roberto Alomar?

    I would not have guessed they were even in the same timezone.

  132. Raul Says:

    I wouldn’t have guessed that at all.

    Maybe it has something to do with all those juiced up hitters Alomar was competing with. Or maybe Alomar was getting fucked defensively by being outplayed by Mark Grudzielanek and Jeff Kent.


  133. Raul Says:

    Lemme get this straight…

    Erin Andrews reporting from stands interviews Matt Holliday’s parents who woke up at 2am to drive 9 hours to make the game.
    Matt Holliday is sporting a $120M contract. Dude…buy a plane ticket.

  134. Chuck Says:

    Look at it on the bright side, at least Fox isn’t overextending her talent abilities like ESPN did.

    When the postseason is over, she’ll go to the Westminster Dog Show and interview poodles.

  135. Chuck Says:

    Joe Buck: “Down on the field we have Erin Andrews, who is standing by with John Doe, the head groundskeeper here at Busch Stadium. Go ahead, Erin”.

    Andrews: “Thanks, Joe. So, John, the field is obviously in great shape, what do you do to keep the grass so lush and green?”

    John: “We water it”.

    Andrews: “Well, there you go, Joe, so the key to a green lawn is water, bet you didn’t know that when you woke up this morning, back to you”.

  136. Raul Says:

    And Miracle Gro!

  137. Raul Says:

    Between Joe Torre batting him 8th and Joe Girardi benching him, Alex Rodriguez must hate people named Joe.
    …and Detroit.

  138. Mike Felber Says:

    That’s ridiculous. Everyone knows Brawndo has what plants crave…Electrolytes.

    Alomar & Randolph have virtually identical WARs. on Randolph is 1/10th of a point higher, the situation is exactly reversed on fangraphs. The reason is clearly that Randolph is rated much higher defensively, though somewhat lower OPS +. Anybody think that he had a much better glove?

    If a star like A-Rod can have his PS production suffer due to such psychological weaknesses, then a team might be effected as well by other factors. If you betray a trust you should apologize, though he was more hurt than vicious about Jeter. Better a player gets enough inner strength not to need to feel “alpha” to produce.

    But do not be too hard on A-Rod flirting with female fans. After all, it seems his only chance to get to 1st base.

  139. Raul Says:

    Ok that last 1b joke…not bad.

    The whole alpha attitude…sorry. That’s something SEVERAL great athletes have in common.
    Very few players reach that level without some sort of arrogance.

  140. Chuck Says:

    I loved Willie Randolph, but he’s not in the conversation, offensively or defensively, with Alomar.

    Yet another example to the overall stupidity of WAR.

  141. Chuck Says:

    I was at a Rangers spring training game a couple of years ago, and I heard CJ Wilson and Teagarden and Saltalamacchia and a couple of other guys make a bet on who could get the first number.

    They would sign baseballs with the hotel name and their room numbers and toss them up and see what would come back.

  142. Mike Felber Says:

    Many great athletes Raul, granted. Though it is possible to be confident yet humble. The ironic weakness in this attitude & pose is shown if your theory of A-Rod is true. That is, his performance would be dependent upon his, status, pecking order, or “face”.

    But hard to deny the appeal of the feminine perks. As Mel Brooks said, “it’s good to be King”.

  143. Len Says:

    In fairness to Willie Randolph he was an extremely underrated player, Definitely one of the 10 most underrated players from 1969-1992. Very good fielder, drew tons of walks, stole bases, scored runs.

    He finished with a career .373 on base percentage when he retired in 1992 which is just outstanding for a second basemen from his era. To put that in perspective, that’s 3rd best for a second basemen from 1947-1992 with a minimum of 4000 plate appearances and the 2b better were J. Robinson & J. Morgan.

    J. Robinson-.409
    J. Morgan-.397
    W. Randolph-.373

    He finished 3rd among 2b in runs scored from 1947-1992:

    J. Morgan-1650
    N. Foxx-1279
    W. Randolph-1239

    He was a great fielding 2b during the early part of his career but was stuck in the same league as Frank White so he never won a gold glove.

  144. Raul Says:

    Willie Randolph.
    Underrated player.
    Can’t get an MLB manager job for his fucking life despite no-managerial-history fuckfaces Mike Matheny and Robin Ventura getting hired. And Jason Giambi and Jason Varitek getting consideration these days.

  145. Raul Says:

    Good news.
    The Yankees didn’t lose.

    Tweet of the day:
    @Joelsherman1: The game is in a rain delay, and yet Swisher already is 0-for-2. #Yankees #Tigers

  146. Len Says:

    Yeah, I’m kind of surprised Randolph never got another managerial job.

    Here’s an interesting stat about Willie Randolph. He’s one of only 5 second basemen since 1901 to have 1200 or more runs scored and a career on base percentage of .373 or higher.

    The other four are:

    Eddie Collins
    Charlie Gehringer
    Joe Morgan
    Rogers Hornsby

  147. Mike Felber Says:

    I try to keep an open mind. His defense is rated well virtually throughout his career. To deserve that WAR w/ a 104 OPS +, he would have to have had a nearly great glove. Definitely a valuable player with overall skills, though even for the era his .351 career Slg. was his relative weak point.

  148. Chuck Says:

    After the fiasco with the Mets, I’m not sure Randolph WANTS to manage again.

    Maybe he has a double secret handshake with the Steinbrenner family that he’s the man when Clueless Joe gets axed, which, if there truly is a God, should be sometime tomorrow.

  149. Raul Says:

    So it turns out this Arod talk with Loria and Levine took place during Spring Training.

    Lol. Now it comes out?
    Sounds like a calculated effort to run Arod out of town. Question is, which Yankees insider leaked this to the media?

  150. Chuck Says:

    Here’s the reason why I’ll never be a major league GM.

    Both Robinson Cano and Curtis Granderson have team options for 2013.

    I would call both of them into my office with their agents and hand each of them their buy-out check, then tell them we’re only going to sign one of them long-term.

    Second one to blink plays somewhere else.

  151. Bob Says:

    Both will have suitors. Both should get 3-years on the open market, which should be considerered long-term by today’s standards.

  152. Raul Says:

    Granderson…I want nothing to do with.
    Cano…I do want. But Boras is his agent and rest assured the first number Boras will put out there is 200 million. I wouldn’t give Cano 100 million.

  153. Chuck Says:

    Cano turns 30 next Monday…Granderson turns 32 during spring training.

    I honestly couldn’t make a decision on which one I’d rather have in five years.

    I don’t think either has “age” skills, I can’t see either playing when they are Jeter’s age.

  154. Raul Says:

    Cano is a marginal 2B as it is. And he’s never shown much interest in defense.

    In 3 years he’ll need to be an outfielder

  155. Chuck Says:

    “Granderson…I want nothing to do with.”

    I want a do-over on the trade.

    The ARod/CC re-signings after they opted out were both stupid decisions, but they were strictly five years you’ll have a $30 million pinch-hitter and a 400 pound Loogy.

    To either not recognize the talent of Austin Jackson or Ian Kennedy, or, worse, ignore it altogether, is mindboggling to me.

    You think the Yanks are down 0-3 with those two guys, or that Texas is the two time defending AL Champs?


  156. Chuck Says:

    “In 3 years he’ll need to be an outfielder”

    So, what you’re really saying is in 3 years he’ll be Alfonso Soriano?


  157. Raul Says:

    I should do a comparison of Cano’s 2012 playoffs with Soriano’s 2003

  158. Len Says:


    I thought Randolph’s career on base percentage was about .350, I was shocked to find that it was so high (.373). I think that year he had in Milwaukee in 1991 gets forgotten. He hit .327 with a .424 on base percentage.

    I went back and checked and his .373 on base percentage is ranked 24th overall among major league players with 4000 plate appearances from 1969-1993. His 1239 runs scored is ranked 19th overall from 1969-1993 (division era/pre wild card/steroid era. He was just 10 behind Jim Rice. His 1239 runs scored is ranked 26th overall from 1961-1993 (expansion era/pre wild card/steroid era.

  159. Bob Says:

    Eddie Yost R.I.P.

  160. Chuck Says:

    Mickey Rivers basehit, Randolph hit and run to right, Munson single to right, Reggie bomb.

    It was a beautiful thing.

  161. Raul Says:

    Soriano 2003: 16-for-71with 26 K
    Cano 2012: 3-for-36 with 5 strikeouts.

  162. Chuck Says:

    Happy Birthday Willie Horton.

    I saw Horton hit a homer while being intentionally walked.

    Old Yankee Stadium off (I think) Fritz Peterson, Horton one-handed a hot off the RF foul pole about a foot above the 298 sign.

  163. Chuck Says:

    My mom and dad went to Baltimore the last week of the season with some Red Sox fan club they belong to.

    Tickets for Friday night and Saturday night games, tour of Camden Yards and the warehouse district, and a meet and greet lunch with Cody Ross.

    My dad said they were walking to the game on Saturday and stopped at a light to wait to cross, and some guy comes up behind my dad and asks where he got his Red Sox jacket.

    He turned around and it was Jon Lester.

    So they walked the rest of the way to the stadium and as Lester went into the player’s entrance told them to wait. Ten minutes later he came back out with two autographed pictures, two autographed balls and two autographed hats.

    The next morning..Sunday..they all went back but had a breakfast buffet at the hotel and the club raffled off some prizes.

    The very last prize was a Carl Yastrzemski autographed ball.

    Which my dad won.

    Not a bad weekend.

  164. Bob Says:

    Not a bad weekend at all.

  165. Raul Says:

    That’s pretty awesome.

    Too bad it was the Red Sox.

  166. Chuck Says:

    “Too bad it was the Red Sox.”

    Tell him all the time.

    He’s been a Red Sox fan since took 62 years to see a World Series championship.

    Must like rooting for losers.

  167. Bob Says:

    Do your parents still live in Waterbury?

  168. Raul Says:

    That’s classified.

  169. Chuck Says:

    My wife met Mark Teixeira at, of all places, Pizza Hut.

    She comes home and tells me she met a Rangers player.

    I said “who”

    She goes, “Texy-air-a or something”.


  170. Chuck Says:

    My parents never lived in Waterbury..they live in Prospect.

  171. Raul Says:

    My uncle met Kenny Rogers & Andy Pettitte at a Pizza Hut back in like 1996. I think it was my uncle’s first job out of college (a different uncle). He was the manager there and Kenny told him to go to the Stadium and that he’d leave tickets for him.

    Said Rogers was a super nice guy.
    Also said Pettitte drove a piece of shit car.

  172. Chuck Says:

    I saw Rogers sign autographs for 20 minutes after a spring training start with an icebag tied to his arm and wrapped in a towel.

    Went right to the top of my good guy list after that one.

  173. Raul Says:

    Rogers got a bad wrap for pushing that camera guy. Too bad that’s what a lot of people remember him for.
    The guy also threw a no hitter once. Or was it a perfect game?

    I wonder if Mussina was a nice guy. He looks like a dick.

  174. Bob Says:

    Mussina just did crossword puzzles at his lock, from what I recall.

  175. Raul Says:

    You do crossword puzzles too Bob.
    I’m certain of it.

  176. Bob Says:

    I do Sodoko. The best one I ever did was a baseball themed one. 9 positions, 9 squares.

  177. Bob Says:

    It was a peffect game by Rogers.

  178. Raul Says:

    I don’t remember that perfecto. I just remember Rusty Greer having the defensive game of his life.

  179. Len Says:


    Your dad was a Red Sox fan? I thought you were a big Yankee fan?

    How the heck did that happen?

  180. Bob Says:

    His grandfather warped him, if I recall

  181. Bob Says:

    ARod is still out of the line-up.

  182. Chuck Says:

    My grandfather was a Yankees fan.

    My father was adopted, so maybe that explains it.

    My grandparents used to spend the winter in Ft. Lauderdale, across the street from the players parking lot at the stadium. He’d pick up baseballs from the yard or the street that had been hit out during BP and get them signed and bring them home. Programs too.

    Pretty cool stuff for a kid..that’s pretty much how I became a Yankee fan.

  183. Raul Says:

    Being a Red Sox fan is part of a sadist lifestyle.

  184. Raul Says:

    I love this. Some guy at ESPN asks Buster Olney if the weather will hold up for Game 4.

    Yeah. Because Buster Olney is the guy to ask. The man can barely tie his own shoes. He wouldn’t know how many outs there were in an inning if it wasn’t plastered all over the stadium.

  185. Mike Felber Says:

    Lol, good stories. And “400 lb. Loogy”, that would be fun to see.

    Len, Randolph was excellent at getting on base, you are right there. Though his runs are partly a product of team, not a good measure of his skills. OPS + & base running will show you that. OBP is more important than slg, usually weighted 1.8/1.0, but there is limited hitting excellence you can assign a gut for a career 104 OPS +. Add in his glove, & he was very valuable.

  186. Raul Says:

    Brian Kenny is “fascinated” because Leyland told NY Daily News writer Bill Madden that he received two lineups yesterday. One with Arod and one without.

    I really don’t think this is a big deal. Calm your boner down, Kenny.

  187. Chuck Says:

    Olney was the guy who was on the field in Boston “breaking the news” that the Red Sox had just traded Youkilis and a couple of prospects to the Braves for Mark Teixeira.

    I was just pulling into my garage, so I ran in the house and turned on ESPN and there’s Kurkjian on Baseball Tonight from Bristol saying it was the Angels, which was right.

    Olney WAS ON THE FIELD and got it wrong.

    He was also the guy, if you remember, who admitted to making up the Pujols for Ryan Howard rumor a couple of year ago so he could fill column space.

  188. Chuck Says:

    Brian Kenny just moved to New Jersey from CT.

    I’m sure he was fasinated by toll booths on the turnpike.

  189. Raul Says:

    Glad to know ESPN has such high standards that they allow a blatant liar to remain on their payroll.

  190. Chuck Says:

    I don’t understand why Keith Law has a job, to be honest.

    He doesn’t get air time, he lives 3000 miles from Bristol.

    Any moron could write and post articles from home, and a circus monkey knows more about baseball than he does.

    He must have pictures of somebody.

  191. Chuck Says:

    So, the Yankee game starts in 15 minutes and I’m at work and can’t watch.

    Which, I’m thinking, is a good thing.

  192. Chuck Says:

    Watching on Gameday..Gonna be a long day, CC’s got stugatz.

  193. Raul Says:

    Yankees already down 1-0.

  194. Raul Says:

    Well, Ibanez was overmatched in that AB vs Scherzer.

    Looks like his magic ran out.

  195. Raul Says:

    I think Chavez struck out on 3 pitches.

    Arod must have thought: I could have done that.

  196. Chuck Says:

    Through two innings, Scherzer’s thrown 30 pitches.

    21 fastballs
    8 changeups
    1 slider.

    The slider was the strike 3 pitch to Swisher in the first.

    Nothing since.

    He won’t get past the second time around throwing just fastballs and changeups, and, his arm is killing him, so he may not see the fifth regardless.

  197. Raul Says:

    Leyland managing this game willing to sacrifice outs to move men in scoring position early in the game.
    When he might normally hope for the 3-run HR, he just wants to scrape a run to get a 2-0…3-0 lead. Because he knows the Yankees will probably fold.

    I’m not saying it’s the Billy Martin school of managing, but it’s close. LOL

  198. Chuck Says:

    See last paragraph, #196.

    Leyland’s no dummy, he knows he’s going to need more than a one or two run lead if he figures he’s getting four innings out of his bullpen today.

  199. Raul Says:

    Delmon Young has another fucking RBI vs the Yankees.
    This clown is exactly like Vernon Wells.
    Seriously…how the fuck is this man beating you? His middle name is Slider In The Dirt.

  200. Raul Says:

    Nunez on 2B.
    A runner in scoring position? Unbelievable.

  201. Raul Says:

    2 on for Swisher with 2 outs.

    Reminds me of that old Bob Uecker quote. The guys in the dugout are in plain clothes, suitcases in hand.

    Pretty sure I butchered Uecker’s quote.

  202. Raul Says:

    Swisher strikes out.

  203. Raul Says:

    2-0 Tigers.

    Terrible defense by Yankees

  204. Chuck Says:

    pitch f/x says the last three pitches to Laird were sinkers.


  205. Raul Says:

    Sabathia hasn’t thrown a sinker in his life.

  206. Chuck Says:

    First of all, you don’t throw sinkers to guys with uppercut swings, secondly, CC doesn’t throw a fucking sinker.

    Two seamer, OK, but not a sinker.

    And, Einstein, they are different pitches.

    Who’s running the FX board anyway, Olney?

  207. Raul Says:

    Soriano made another out.

  208. Raul Says:

    Lol @ who is running the fx board.

    Spider monkeys

  209. Raul Says:

    And Tex strikes out.

  210. Raul Says:

    7 K’s through 4 by Scherzer.

    Way to show up, Yankees.

  211. Raul Says:

    Miggy just hit one to Saskachewan.

  212. Chuck Says:


  213. Chuck Says:

    You know the first guy who should lose his job?

    Kevin Long.

  214. Raul Says:

    Especially since before coming to the Yankees, Mark Teixeira was much more balanced as a hitter.

  215. Chuck Says:

    I get into this debate with DelGrippo all the time..the worst hitter in the major leagues is infinitely better than we can even imagine.

    They stopped needing hitting coaches right around puberty.

    All they are is eyes, it’s hard for a player, even on video, to fix himself, because you don’t always feel or think you’re doing something wrong.

    What the Angels did to Mickey Hatcher was bullshit.

    Pujols is getting older, was coming off hand surgery, was in a new league with new pitchers, and Hatcher gets canned after 17 years because Pujols couldn’t hit his weight for a month?

    The entire Yankees’ roster is messed up.

    THAT, my friends, is all on Long.

    Either his hitting theories suck, or he’s not good enough to help guys who are struggling.

    Either way, see ya.

  216. Chuck Says:

    Look at Big Papi a couple of years ago..he couldn’t hit a fastball either.

    He worked with Dave Magadan, made some adjustments, and is hitting again.

    If ARod opened up a bit and dropped his hands a couple of inches, and got rid of that bush league leg kick, he could be somewhat productive.

  217. Raul Says:

    Arod makes 275 million.
    And Kevin Long probably addresses him as Mr Rodriguez.
    Pretty sure he gets Alex’s lattes too.

  218. Chuck Says:

  219. Chuck Says:

    Kevin Long was a 31st round pick of the Royals and played 8 minor league seasons, making it as far as AAA.

    Kevin Long was a good player and has a solid resume.

    That said, his theories/beliefs learned may not work well at a higher level, especially with an advanced team like the Yankees.

    I’ve never met Long, so I have nothing against him. DelGrippo met him a couple of times and sat with him at the park in Lakewood and said Long talked all night about hitting and was an awesome guy.

    But just like managers, there comes a time when players start to tune you out, especially when their promised successes don’t actually turn into success.

    I would absolutely love it if the Yankees fired Girardi and every single coach on the staff and brought in Willie Randolph as manager, and he brought in Piniella as bench coach and Chambliss as hitting coach and Guidry as pitching coach and so on.

    Not gonna happen, obviously, but it’s really not fair to deny an old man, either.

  220. Chuck Says:

    Raul..are you watching the Cardinals game..did you hear what Rosenthal said about ARod and the benchings?

  221. Raul Says:

    I’m not watching. I’m taking some time to decompress from this atrocious display the Yankees put up during the playoffs.

    Ken Rosenthal, 30 years ago, would have been Bozo The Clown’s personal hand puppet. That this fuckface is reporting on Major League Baseball is one of the great tragedies of the last 600 years of human civilization.

    …modestly speaking.

  222. Chuck Says:

    My wife is 5′4″….I’m pretty sure she’s taller than Rosenthal.

    I’m serious.

    Kurkjian’s 5′7″, and he jokes all the time the reason he likes hanging around with him is he “towers” over him.

  223. Bob Says:

    LOL at 218. More importantly, congrats to the Detroit Tigers.

  224. Raul Says:

    With all little due respect to Kevin Long, you’ve got some balls if you’re gonna think Alex Rodriguez is gonna take hitting advice from you.

    Frankly I’m amazed the Yankees never tried to get that Jaramillo guy in Texas who was hitting coach when Alex and Tex were there. Everyone loved that guy.

  225. Bob Says:

    Rernando Rodney and Posey were the comeback players. No issues here.

  226. Bob Says:

    I meant Fernando Rodney. Between a couple rum and cokes after the Tigers game and this being Friday, a long day.

  227. Raul Says:

    Was Fernando Rodney ever good?
    Closers getting awards….they should feel lucky security even lets them in the building.

  228. Bob Says:

    The Yanks will excercise Granderson’s option.

  229. Raul Says:


    God damn it.

  230. Raul Says:

    Written by Mike Schmidt…..

    There was a time when Alex Rodriguez was touted as the guy who could relieve us of Barry Bonds as the home run king. He was young, healthy and an MVP contender every year.
    If anyone deserved $30 million a year, it was him. That’s a stretch – “deserve” $30 million a year. Maybe discovering a cure for cancer, world hunger or global peace, but not playing baseball. Who’s worth that number? Surely not a baseball player. Funny, Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise gets the same for a movie, no one raises an eyebrow.
    No discussion about Alex Rodriguez can be complete without the subject of money. For an athlete who dedicates his life to his craft, the size of the paycheck is a major factor. No one has ever refused money or given money back. Athletes are entertainers, some ridiculously high-paid entertainers.
    In a perfect world, entertainers would not be allowed to make more money than doctors, police officers or anybody whose work made a difference to society. Ours is not a perfect world, so things get out of balance. Something like a young super-athlete, who played baseball for an eccentric owner, in an era when expanded TV, media, Internet and general economic growth seemed evident, was part of a perfect storm.
    Alex Rodriguez was cursed. At the time he had no idea, none of us did. That contract changed him and baseball and has been a burden to many. A burden under which he has to play, fans have to watch and baseball has to exist. Alex Rodriguez’s career will never be appreciated.
    Is the burden of money at the root of all of his problems? Alex Rodriguez, for all intents and purposes, is a good guy. His problem, at times, seems to be the perception that he comes off as insincere, insecure and even a bit fake. What mega-athlete doesn’t have that side to their personality? I did. OK, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, just off the top of my head, but that’s about where it ends.
    LeBron, Kobe and Tiger, there’s a quick three for comparison. But then the anti-A-Rod – Derek Jeter – still at a level where salary could be an issue, is beloved and respected by everyone. CC Sabathia and Mark Teixeira also are on the Yankees and make over $20 million each, and they escape the daily wrath and scrutiny.
    Is it money, personality or the combination that makes Alex so polarizing?
    To make a point, two personal stories. After his first couple years as a teenage major league shortstop in Seattle, I met him before a golf event in Fort Lauderdale. I had retired several years earlier, he was just beginning his career, and I sensed a great respect as he addressed me as Mr. Schmidt. It made me feel old, but at the same time, he impressed me with his approach.
    Fast forward to the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium in 2008 when he was one homer away from my 548 on the all-time home run chart. We were standing at third base, I was a little uncomfortable not knowing what to say, so I tried to make conversation by mentioning the home run list. He asked me if I was planning on being there to see him match me. It was sort of an aloof response to my question – to ask if I was planning on following him till he tied me was a little presumptuous and a blow to my ego. It came off as the exact opposite of our first meeting. This was 500 home runs and $200 million later in life.
    I may be reading too much into these moments, Alex wouldn’t even remember them. He was there to play the game, not carry on a conversation about home run records with me. Just the wrong choice of words in a stressful moment, that can happen.
    Alex has a very high profile, tries so hard to be normal, and can’t pull it off. No one making $30 million a year could. If he were a rock star, who’d care? He plays America’s game in front of us for seven months. He can’t hide.
    The reason he is so polarizing lies right in this story. In him, we all see a guy who hit the sports lottery and we think, if it were us, life would be a bowl of cherries and it would be easy to be everything to everyone. If the tables were turned in that exchange at the All-Star game, I’d have said to him that I’d be honored if he were present when I tied and passed him, and I would send my jet to bring him there. Is that crazy?
    So many people say to me that I came along in baseball 20 years too early. They say imagine what you’d make if you played today. My answer is simple and has two parts: I’d be Alex Rodriguez, and I’m glad I’m not.
    We are alike in that we both were shortstops and moved to third base. We both hit home runs, produced runs, won Gold Gloves, won MVP awards and a World Series championship. Most of my career I was the highest or close to the highest-paid player in baseball. Over the last decade, and forever, it’s him. We played under the highest pressure and expectations.
    I may be one person who has walked in his shoes. Of course, it was Philadelphia, not New York. It was $2 million, not $30 million. And the world in which he lives is drastically different than mine. Make no mistake, few would qualify to be both highest paid in the game and 0 for 20 in a postseason.
    I know what it’s like to be right on the ball and miss it, and the few times you connect it’s caught. Imagine in the ALCS opener against Detroit, bases loaded, if Alex’s rope in the hole in the second inning was 6 inches to the left. He’d drive in two runs, the pressure is off and maybe none of this happens.
    Instead, Jhonny Peralta dives and catches it for the third out, another failure in the clutch. In the 1983 World Series, I finished 1 for 20. But in my first two at-bats, I lined out to center field with men on base. Those balls find the gap and I’d go as far to say the Series outcome against Baltimore would have been different.
    The postseason can be cruel, especially cruel to those hitters who are expected to produce and lead their teams. In baseball, players are supposed to be judged over an extended period, not a two-week postseason. Hitting comes and goes and never says goodbye. This time of year, the big, high-paid boys are supposed to hit, but most don’t. Check it, there are more hitting stars who fail in postseason than succeed. Look at Robinson Cano and Curtis Granderson – even worse than Alex, but who’s making the headlines?
    Imagine if he had never signed that contract, made a normal amount and never had a brush with performance-enhancing drugs. Imagine if there were no Internet, no Twitter or Facebook, only a couple newspapers and radio shows, and limited television exposure. Would he be today’s Mickey Mantle?
    But that’s the reality, and because of it he has his $200 million and the pressure that comes with it. He signed on for this and now he faces challenges few if any ever have. I was never benched, never removed for a pinch hitter. The Phillies believed I was always one swing from changing a game and a series. Apparently, Joe Girardi didn’t feel the same about Alex Rodriguez.
    Alex seems to my eye to still be a fundamentally sound and potentially very productive hitter. Staying healthy at 37 is the issue. Age is a funny thing. I seemed to hit a wall in my late 30s. I can’t explain it other than to say fastballs I used to hit a long way ended up on the warning track, nagging injuries increased, I didn’t get to groundballs I used to eat up.

    And as this happened, I began to doubt my ability. I had an excuse: I was old, so I retired. It happens to all of us. But in Alex’s case when it does – if it isn’t happening now – it won’t be that easy. He will be making $30 million a year, guaranteed! For that kind of money, you aren’t allowed to get old.

  231. Mike Felber Says:

    lol! I though CC needed the exercise.

  232. Mike Felber Says:

    Very interesting Raul. Schmidt has written before about the stress of not hitting early in that PS effecting his other PA. These are discerning observations.

    I do think he read too much into asking him Schmidt if he would be there for the record. Just an innocent question, no need to have pride hurt. And I see no hark in the silly little vanities like kissing the mirror/his muscle, likely meant as a self aware joke. Much of the reactions to him are jealous & it is not his fault he was given so much $ so early.

    The ‘roids are a different story. His tales about that were inconsistent, dishonest, thus we have no reason to know if he used more.

    Schmidt was superb, easily the best player in baseball between ‘74 & ‘81, & very good for a few more years. Though unlike some great players, he was neither great very young nor old. With modern training & barring injury, you would think A-Rod could be better than his last 2 campaigns for several years.

  233. Mike Felber Says:

    Some thoughts on WAR & value.

    I put a lot of stock in it overall, though have some critiques & realize certain aspects like defense & how to evaluate effects of pitching skills are not near 100%. Yet it is an irony to savor that the new-fangled sabermetrics reward what the old guard small ball crowd celebrates: 5 tools, doing the ‘lil things, cutting off balls, base running, etc. Small ball in part. And traditionalists tend to prefer the more 1 dimensional Cabrera for MVP.

    Trout had a historic season. If given, say, 9.0 WAR when missing ~ precisely 1/5th the season would still have been great. But while I agree he should be the MVP, is rWAR over praising it?

    10.7 rWAR. That is barely better than William’s best, barely under the best by Musial & Mays. Less than a very others like Hornsby, & it may be true that Ripken & Yaz could have put up 1 season amongst the very best ever.

    But look at the RATE of value added, per game. Trout is recorded as creating a win ~ exactly every 12 games. Eyeballing the leaders & there games, it seems like even WITH his production declining over the last 2 months, esp. in September, that credits him with the most value per game of any position player EVER, except being just edged out by Babe Ruth, & at that only in ‘23. And statistical outliers are more frequent in the old days due to more marginal players.

    There is a difference between a season that ranks as rare ever even with 129 games, & a rate of quality produced per game marked better than virtually anyone. Yet Trout also played against good competition/pitching, better than Miggy. Is it possible that rWAR does not overstate his value?

    The comments after this article are endless but intellectually engaging.

  234. Raul Says:

    25 man rosters
    30 teams
    750 players, at least…not including call ups

    Of those 750+, how many were “replacement level”?

  235. Mike Felber Says:

    A good # Raul, judging by stats. Though they tended to not last, sometimes they did for years, esp. the good glove, no hit types. Though that does not really matter-as long as the standard is consistent & accurate, the question is do the various components reflect well what people do to create or subtract value.

  236. Raul Says:

    A good number like 50? Or 500?

  237. Mike Felber Says:

    Many 100s for various length periods through MLB history. Just look at those who are right around 0 any given year, or those whose career was value-neutral. Then you can search a ton similar to those guys. Often a player who is good, when injured, & just starting or finishing, is right around 0.

  238. Raul Says:

    So half the league? Is that what you would estimate?

  239. Mike Felber Says:

    No Raul, & I do not know what you are driving at. To show the standard is implausible? Unlike WIn Shares, replacement level is known to be set at just under average MLB level-AAA, & a 2.0 is a a standard starter. Do that within a 1/2 year, you are beginning to hit all star level 7-8 is MVP level, rarely lower. You start getting historically great at 10 wins above replacement level. ~ 130 years ago give or take, when some pitchers actually threw most all IP of the short season, up to close to 700(!)-they raced up the highest win shares, approaching 20 even. But that was a different game, closer mound.

    The crux of my contemplation was: sure, Trout had a historically great year. Base running, glove, avoiding GIDP, his great bat really added up even though his OPS + was “only” 171, not Bondsian (sic) levels.

    But is it true that his wins per game in his 129 game season really exceeded EVERYONE EVER, even Bonds in ‘02, except for Ruth in ‘23 marginally exceeding him? Can anyone do this without the 200 something stratospheric OPS +, & even considering his production went significantly down the last 40% of his season? And not in an expansion year, & in a tough division?

  240. Jim Says:

    Yawn, in the worst kept secret in baseball the other side of the RS front office civil war got their man in John Farrel. For those of us who can’t quite fathom the clubs hard-on for Farrel, we can be encouraged by the compensation, Mike .282 OBP Aviles. Even if Farrel does nothing to improve the team, Aviles is addition by subtraction.

  241. Jim Says:

    Not all RS players are enamored with the idea of Farrel as manager. An anonymous player quoted in one of the local media outlets.

    “He’s a hell of a pitching coach, but did you see Toronto play this year? They were as lost as we were.

    “Losing [Jose Bautista] was like us losing David [Ortiz], but they didn’t gut their team at the deadline (and still finished only four games ahead of the Sox). And what happened to their pitching staff? Isn’t that [Farrell's] strength? He can’t make ‘em make the pitch, but isn’t that the expectation here? Whatever.”

    “I’m pretty sure those guys were in more of a hurry to end the season than we were. Did you see how fast they went in the [expletive]? That was a step backward.”

    Best guess is that the player is Pedroia.

  242. Jim Says:

    The quote was last week, before the Farrel hiring

  243. Raul Says:

    I asked a simple question.
    How many of the 750+ players in MLB this year were replacement level.

    Is there no straight answer?

  244. Raul Says:

    No Bell for Arod deal happening.

    Bell traded to Arizona in 3-team deal involving Oakland.

  245. Raul Says:

    Oakland gets Chris Young
    Arizona gets Heath Bell and Cliff Pennington
    Miami gets Yordy Cabrera

  246. Mike Felber Says:

    I have been as straight with you as possible Raul. I do not know how to easily search for how many are *exactly* replacement level. Plenty were more or less around there. As John has shown, nothing is with absolute //certainty. But of course there will be some overlap between very good players just below the ML level, & poor or mediocre players in the big leagues.

    How to attribute value can always be debated. But there is not much doubt about who is contributing little. It is not reasonable to object to WAR on the basis of using a standard for comparison at all-you must show that the formula is likely wrong, & why.

  247. Chuck Says:

    “you must show that the formula is likely wrong, & why.”

    You already know why.

  248. Len Says:


    I checked in the play index for 2012 and there were 43 batters with “Zero” WAR and 59 pitchers with “Zero” WAR. So there were 102 players last year who played in majors at the replacement level set by BR version of WAR.

    Here’s some of the batters:

    Ian Stewart, Brian Bixler, and Jeff Bianchi.

    Here’s some of the pitchers:

    Kevin Gregg, David Aardsma, and Tony Sipp.

    Then there’s lots of players slightly above and slightly below zero say −0.3—to—+0.3 WAR.

    Jeff Francoeur had the worst WAR in the A.L @-2.7. And Nick Blackburn was the worst pitcher in the A.L. @-2.3WAR

    Greg Dobbs had the worst WAR in the N.L.@-2.3, and Tim Lincecum was the worst pitcher in the N.L. @-2.1WAR and to make matters worse with Lincecum, the Giants are paying him $18 Million this year.

  249. Raul Says:

    Thank you Len.

    All I wanted to know.

  250. Cameron Says:

    Hey guys, just droppin’ in again. The telemarketing job didn’t end well. Mutual decision. They weren’t happy with my performance, I hated that job with a fiery passion. I’m gonna stick around for a while longer. Gonna go back to school, think I found my calling is really the classroom. Long-term plan is to make it back to KC and start teaching after I get my degree from KU, but I need an associate’s to transfer in first.

    Also, go Giants. I’m tired of the Cardinals making me look like a jackass every year when it comes to predictions. Miracle comebacks, losing the best player in baseball and still being a win away from the Series, I want them to suck again.

  251. Chuck Says:

    You cannot reasonably assign a “win” to an individual player either on a game by game basis or over the course of a partial or full season.

    “Putting a lot of stock in it” overall shows a lack of understanding about baseball in general; the use of WAR is nothing more than a talking point to appear knowledgeable.

    If the people at High Heat Stats or Baseball Prospectus or whatever want to think Mike Trout had a top five all-time season, well, that’s their opinion.

    Those of us who know better aren’t laughing with them.

  252. Mike Felber Says:

    Thanks Len. I never fooled around with the play index. To get a more discerning view of what it means, we would also want to check for PA or IP. Since many will be replacement level due more to little playing time.

    I know why folks claim why it is or can be wrong Chuck. And I do not think it is perfect. The question is whether it or other systems are generally very close to real value. Reasonable people can disagree, but I do think that it is usually close. Take the biggest objection for position players, defense. There is much less value that can be created there than a comparably good hitter, so only so much it is likely to queer the final #s. Something like catcher is always going to have some uncertainty, since it is impossible to show precisely how well pitchers are handled.

  253. Chuck Says:

    I’m not surprised Cameron, you really have to be some kind of a “special” person to enjoy that type of work.

    Seems like you’ve set an admirable long-term goal..just remember not to get lost on your way..there are many short term goals you have to meet along the way.

    The most important day on your journey is always tomorrow.

  254. Cameron Says:

    Yeah. But I think my plans for a business future are done. Rewarding work financially, but I’ve got too big a heart for it.

  255. Chuck Says:

    “I never fooled around with the play index”

    Because it’s not free?

    One of the many problems with WAR is it gives equal value to all things..walks have a certain value, doubles have a certain value.

    While I don’t buy into WPA, the theory it’s based on shows that a single in the 8th with a runner on has more value than a single in the first with a runner on.

    The stat geeks continue to try their damndest to quantify something that can’t be quantified.

  256. Chuck Says:

    Should have been in AZ last couple of days Cam..I had a decent sized catering job and the kid I hired to do setup and tear down no-showed (so what else is new).

    Six hours of work on Friday and four or five yesterday…$200 cash.

  257. Cameron Says:

    Six-hour teardown? Decent-sized gig.

  258. Mike Felber Says:

    Cameron! While I did different telemarketing, I taught developmentally disabled adults for several years. Well, at least they told me I was the teacher. :-)

    You can disagree with formulas Chuck, but I think you are misguided to label all who find any particular system pretty accurate as knowing little about baseball. clearly a player in the abstract DOES create a certain amount of value, or wins-the question is how close to the truth one system gets. Those who take it as Gospel-yes, that is foolish. There is always uncertainty.

    Who has said anywhere that Mike Trout had a top 5 ever season? Certainly not me. What I wrote was an invitation to disagree with rWAR, but you mistook what I said.

    1st, though fangraphs often has WAR a little higher for most all- Trout is 10.0 there, 10.7 at rWAR. I count 5 higher than Trout just who did NOT lead the league: Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Walsh & Wood. And a quick count of league leaders shows an additional just over 30 who beat him. Plus ~ a handful more more exactly tied with him.

    So then, that is around the mid 30’s-early 40’s best season ever, according to the slightly more optimistic WAR (depending upon how you decide the ties). DO you have any problem with THAT assessment? if so, in which direction, & why?

    What I said was something different. Nobody debates that pitchers can create a lot more value per game, several times as much in fact. Add in tons of IP &/or decent hitting, the best pitchers have historically created slightly more value than the best hitters. And even in the modern era of fewer IP, Pedro approached, & Clemens slightly exceeded, the best of Bonds. Adding in hitting, Gooden had the best year since my avatar & Ruth. Now I do not know if Gooden was QUITE that good in ‘85, but it is within the realm of plausibility.

    I said & asked something different. That eyeballing WAR per GAME, Trout seems to have beaten (at least marginally) everyone except Ruth in ‘23. My question is that when you factor in his declining performance, is THIS plausible?

    Even with those who think not, I think the most that folks will say it overrates him is 10-15%.

  259. Mike Felber Says:

    The play index is free Chuck.

    Tw things about leverage situations. 1st, an action is always worth the same thing-but yes, sometimes it means more to your team winning. Not really whether you do it early or late in a game you win, because all adds to the total, though if guys more often hit well during lost causes-yes, that is a distinction with a difference. But just like clutch play is usually illusory or much exaggerated, over a significant sample size this difference is not generally large.

    Some years it is significant. But show me that factoring it in makes a significant difference. I suspect that it would just occasionally. Meaning if we did it for all, a marginal improvement overall, just occasionally more. But either way, this is not unquantifiable.

    I had done a cater waitering for a bunch of NYC agencies. No excuse for a no show.

  260. Chuck Says:

    “The play index is free Chuck.”

    No, it’s not, Mike.

    There is a “free” version, but it’s so limited it’s not worth the effort.

  261. Chuck Says:

    The set-up on Friday was six hours.

    Unloading trucks, setting up tables and chairs, some basic kitchen prep work.

    Tear down was four because I made everybody pitch in and help because I was gassed and wanted to get the hell out of there.

    Last dessert tray went out about 6:30 and I got home at 11:08…I was the last to leave by about a half technically clean-up was just under four hours.

  262. Mike Felber Says:

    Your pay was very fair even by NYC standards. They should be quite happy to get that in Az. Unless that dude was unconscious in the ER or an immediate family member suddenly died, I am guessing he is not hired by you again.

    Ah, I did not know about this big difference in the PA. Well I can manually & eye ball check plenty enough, & HHS geeks do this work for us anyway!

  263. Chuck Says:

    $15-$20 hr. is standard for “under the table” work, plus it’s not like you don’t earn it. At the end of the day(s), you’d be reaching for the ibuprofen.

  264. Bob Says:

    The Sox get Adam Lind and John Farrell for Mike Aviles. Could have been worse

  265. Bob Says:

    Actually, it was David Carpenter, not Adam Lind. Sorry. And the fishing gear has been retired for the next 6 months.

  266. Chuck Says:

    Earthworms everywhere are rejoicing.

  267. Raul Says:

    I don’t think Farrell will be any better.

    He might be a better fit for the Red Sox. But ultimately, this looks like a franchise where the players run the show.
    Even with all the egos on the Yankees, you didn’t have the kind of mutiny by players when Girardi took over for Torre.

    I think Boston needs to blow this team up completely. I think David Ortiz is a passive-aggressive schemer. I think Dustin Pedroia isn’t fit to be a leader. I think Jon Lester can’t lead this rotation.

    They’re all fine, maybe even great players. But there aren’t any leaders. Maybe don’t get rid of them all, but clearly someone else needs to take control of that clubhouse. And it’s not gonna come from any manager.

  268. Chuck Says:

    RIP Dave May.

    Derrick May’s father and 12 year ML veteran OF whose claim to fame probably would be the player the Brewers traded to Atlanta for Hank Aaron.

  269. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, & pay the decently they are more likely to be good & dedicated. But nah, though I try to take the heavy things, thanks to lifting I the muscles have not been sore after a gig. The ankles might be-I have flat feet & am not light, so standing for a long gig, on standing on hard surfaces can make them sore the next day.

  270. Chuck Says:

    It’s on your feet work for sure but for the most part is pretty simple work.

    Setting tables, hanging decorations if necessary, some basic prep work in the kitchen.

    If you don’t have food handling experience then I wouldn’t ask you to use a knife or slicer, but anyone can make a salad.

  271. Bob Says:

    Sure can.
    1. Lettuce
    2. Bacos
    3. Croutons
    4. Ranch or blue cheese dressing
    5. Forget the cucumbers, tomatoes and onions.
    6. Only half-kidding.

  272. Mike Felber Says:

    That is not even lifting anything of consequence! Breakdowns especially tend to be carrying big tables in NYC, moving chairs, emptying big slop buckets of thrown out drinks…And more often the formal service & clearing of tables in a banquet hall type place. Off season & if I was across country I would help you out. I know Cameron would, & he could use the cash!

  273. Mike Felber Says:

    Sure you are not/did not mean “baked” Bob? I would have figured jus’ a typo, but the “s” key is nowhere near the “n”!

  274. Chuck Says:

    You would do all those things Mike if the situation warranted.

    Obviously I pick people who I know will show up (most of the time) and bust their ass (all of the time) and don’t waste my time bitching and whining because the chairs are too heavy or don’t like emptying slop buckets.

    I run a tight but fair ship..everyone works to their strengths and helps each other..the faster we get done the faster we all leave.

  275. Raul Says:

    Anthony Bourdain said in his book he didn’t want privileged prissy Americans in his kitchens.

    He wanted hungry minorities and cast aways.
    When the kitchen gets slammed, and he screams “where’s my fucking chicken, maricon!!?”, he wants the guy who will quietly get the chicken and get back on the line. Not the guy who bitches about his feelings and pressure.

    I imagine Chuck is a little bit like that.

  276. Mike Felber Says:

    Um, I imagine Chuck is not a verbally abusive boss. And lots of places you cannot have a business if you act like that. Even if you are not hating on that individuals & gays, folks cannot tell often, & folks who act like that these daaaaze are often exposed & lose their position &/or reputation.

    Bob & Cameron were right about Detroit in the World-Serious. But nobody saw St. Louis getting so far, though they have been very good in the post season, a distant 2nd to the Yankees historically in titles, & very good this century. Is it random, or did we underestimate them? They have the experience to make it more likely they will do well in the post season.

  277. Raul Says:

    Well obviously you wouldn’t last a day in a decent kitchen with your delicate sensibilities.
    I’ve worked in lots of kitchens. Guaranteed someone gets called fuckface and maricon in damn near every kitchen in the world.
    And it’s not malicious.

    You just don’t understand it because you’re a bleeding heart artsy pansy.
    Which is fine. You know your place.

  278. Jim Says:

    @267. I don’t know about Bob, but if the Sox sent Lester, Pedroia and Ortiz down the road I wouldn’t scream, depending on what they got back for the first two. It’s difficult to see the RS contending for at least a couple of years so if the could get back young talent.

    The argument against trading Lester is that the would be selling low. As for Pedroia, I’ve never believed that he will age well and over the last couple of seasons he’s been on the DL for stretches and has played (poorly) when hurt.

  279. Mike Felber Says:

    Why do you make this into a macho pissing contest Raul? You don;t see Chuck doing so. I have worked with many kitchens, with a 1/2 dozen or so catering agencies. Someone gets called names in many places. That is different from most doing it, & like soooo much verbal abuse, it is used to demean sometimes, & put down groups by association. In many places like NYC, the biggest pool around, you will be unlikely to hear, say, maricon, ’cause gays have some rights & power now. And if you are the boss & act this way, it is being a BULLY, since folks cannot defend themselves, & you do not risk physical violence, so it is not brave.

    My Place, what a mean & misguided idea about what you presume I am & know. I Now according to the vicious script of machismo, I should challenge you, if not to a fight, talk about how soft you would be in another context like the gym. And call you some variant of fuckface. The whole dynamic is pathetic BS. And it is not making you at all tough.

  280. Mike Felber Says:

    Now I DID get it bass-ackwards re: the NLCS: it is The Giants spanking St. Louis. Though nobody saw them in the finals either.

  281. Bob Says:

    Congrats to the Giants.

  282. Bob Says:

    @ 278 & Jim. It would not bother me one bit if Lester or Pedroia were traded & I was content with the return. I also would not care if Ortiz left them like Papelbon, assumiong the Sox get a pick for him. Losing him and not getting a pick would be a bit of a stinger for me.

    1. Babe Ruth was traded
    2. Wayne Gretzky was traded
    3. The rights to Bill Russell were traded.
    4. Ortiz, Pedroia & Lester are certainly not untouchable

  283. Chuck Says:

    “Where’s the goddamn chicken, motherfucker”!!! is not verbal abuse.

  284. Chuck Says:

    You say you used to work in the food industry, Mike..

    “you will be unlikely to hear, say, maricon, ’cause gays have some rights…”

    You know what a “fagot” is?

  285. Raul Says:

    Tigers vs Giants.

    Aren’t these like the 2nd and 3rd oldest franchises?

  286. Raul Says:

    Dude, nobody said a fucking thing about gay rights. But you clearly haven’t worked in a kitchen if you never heard vulgar machismo shit in a kitchen.

    Giants and Tigers are old franchises. Not close to 2nd or 3rd oldest though.

  287. Raul Says:

    Marco Scutaro.
    This guy is from the Bill Mueller family tree of players who suck having a few moments of luck.

  288. Chuck Says:

    And for the record..I grew up playing ball with Latinos, and my wife is Puerto Rican..

    A lot of Mexicans in the kitchens, etc, and the number of times I heard the word “maricon” I could count on one hand, and the majority of those references were locker room trash talking.

    NO ONE runs around a kitchen with a bunch of hungover Guatemalans with butcher knives yelling “trapear el piso de mierda, maricon” without a death wish.

  289. Chuck Says:

    I feel bad for Carlos Beltran.

    He’s going to end up paying the price in ten years when a bunch of dickwad sabermetric voters by-pass him on the HOF ballot because he never played in a World Series.

  290. Mike Felber Says:

    I did not say I never heard vulgarisms in the kitchen Raul, Once again, look with some care about what I really said, rather than your stereotype of what you assign to all those who make you mad. In this way, you are the hyper-sensitive one.

    I said some do this sometimes. I worked with kitchens, in catering you often go in & out continually, occ. waiters are assigned there…Chuck just schooled you on “maricon” Raul,m certainly your fantasy of how he might speak betrays your unfamiliarity in that context.

    I recall your background & wife Chuck. And I never though you discriminated in this way at all. And the MF quote you used-eh, borderline. Guys generally know it is a matter of depersonalized urgency when you speak like that, does not allude to a group, though I would not use it.

    Your question-you forgot a “g”, but you are not gonna tell me what we learned as kids, that the word technically means a bundle of sticks, or fag means a smoke in British Vernacular I hop…Everyone knows that it effectively means & is used to question the sexuality & masculinity of men. But as you clarified for raul, it is rarely done, you do not, & by implication not bloody likely to be used if you are not Latino, so that is the important thing.

    So instead, I gotta call you out big time (but good naturedly) on Beltran. You have occasionally betrayed a real misunderstanding about what SM guys like & believe!

    1) Beltran is liked by them. He has a WAR of over 62 & over 65 on B-R & fangraphs WAR respectively. Around a proportionate peak. Right now most would vote him in, & he was still decent this year.

    2) SM folks have the opposite idea than you assign them re: post season play, CERTAINLY whether they played in the Fall Classic! Because nobody creates a large sample size just in the W.S. And recall that they are forever isolating team dependent stats & effects from real value a player created. Examples are they tend to favor players for MVP based on total value, not whether their team was good enough to make them contenders. Likewise for things like RBIs & runs.

    3) SM loves to say how both less flashy tools & little things are unrecognized traditionally. So they credit him with playing a quite good outfield, often the valuable CF. And a superb SB %. Limited GIDP, even good SF.

    4) For the record, the 151 AB would not mean that much, but they would credit him with being great in the PS. 1.252 OPS, & 11/0 SB/CS.

    5) Interesting that is is 3rd even in SB%, almost 87%, & those above him are also still active. Will the trend in inproving rates there recently continue?

    6) Only reason I can think you believe WS play makes a big difference is that they consider Schilling a solid/mid range HOF pick. But that is a confusion of causes: given his ERA +, few unearned runs, peripheral stats, esp. SO/BB Curt would be considered quite worthy if he never played in October.

    If we checked any HOF polls for Beltran on the usual SM suspect sites, betchya most would want him in. Or if a few years ago, they would say he was borderline & on his way. SM guys like a guy like Beltran.

  291. Chuck Says:

    “Your question-you forgot a “g”, but you are not gonna tell me what we learned as kids, that the word technically means a bundle of sticks, or fag means a smoke in British Vernacular I hop”

    Fagot…one “g”

    You didn’t look it up, did you?

    Busted again.

    In kitchen terms, a “fagot” is a bundle of whole herbs and spices used to season soups, broths and some sauces.

    It can also be cut herbs with some animal fats bundled in cheesecloth for the same purpose..doing it this way saves the need to strain it later..just pull the packet out and you’re done.

    “The pot’s ready for the fagot” doesn’t mean we’re boiling Ted Allen.

    In a kitchen environment, the word fagot has a different meaning, thus the word maricon would never be used.

  292. Chuck Says:

    Marlins fired Ozzie.

  293. Mike Felber Says:

    Busted? You asked me if I knew what it meant, & I thought it was a typo. I was no reluctant to look it up, did not know this was correct. You have an odd habit of assuming laziness with Google-when I have asked for a perspective, it is to see what someone considers evidence, to address points efficiently.

    But you did edge-u-micate me there. Not only is it a legitimate term, but not obscure/used in a kitchen? Though of course you know that this kind of usage is not the issue, did not apply to Raul’s maricon-laced profanities he projected upon you, & kitchens in general.

    Now care to address my systematic deconstruction of your puzzling beliefs about what sabermetrics followers believe about World Series play & Beltran re: HOF value?

  294. Chuck Says:

    “Now care to address my systematic deconstruction of your puzzling beliefs about what sabermetrics followers believe about World Series play & Beltran re: HOF value?”


  295. Chuck Says:

    Well, you’re right there, you certainly wouldn’t hear the “fagot” term in some amateur back-room church group pancake breakfast type catering gig.

    You probably wouldn’t hear it either in Mario Batali’s Italian kitchen, or Ming Tsai’s Asian.

    It’s more of an old-school classic French term, in a setting where broths and stocks are the essential to their cuisine.

  296. Chuck Says:

    Brian Kenny confirmed as a guest speaker at the 2013 SABR Analytics Conference.


  297. Raul Says:

    I assume there will be a teleprompter if Kenny will be speaking.
    Otherwise it will be weird.

  298. Chuck Says:

    I wouldn’t go to the Analytics Conference if they held it in my garage.

  299. Raul Says:

    Tigers or Giants?

  300. Chuck Says:


    Which, if based on my other predictions means you should bet the farm on the Giants.

    You know what’s funny?

    Austin Jackson is in the World Series before Granderson.


  301. Chuck Says:

    Doing some research for the SABR BioProject and there’s a guy on my list I never heard of.

  302. Raul Says:

    Austin Jackson struck out less and whaddayaknow? He actually didn’t lose any power.

    Must have been fucking magic.

  303. Raul Says:

    Lol that Burpo guy is 90 years old

  304. Bob Says:

    2 299. I refuse to answer that, as I care about the outcome. Sorry

  305. Bob Says:

    Never heard of Burpo myself.

  306. Len Says:

    Yea, I kind of feel sorry for Carlos Beltran because a lot of baseball never realized what a great baseball player he is/was.

    He was stuck in baseball siberia in K.C. for 5 odd years. He never made an all star team while on the Royals and he probably should have made 3 from 1999-2003, he probably deserved a GG in there as well. The Dumb ass Mets fans never appreciated him. He probably should have won the 2006 MVP and the Mets probably don’t even get to a game 7 without Beltran’s play in the LCS. It’s shows you what a pathetic franchise they’ve been in that Beltran is one of their all time great position players and he only played about 800 games for the franchise. 3 of the best seasons by a position on the Mets came from Beltran in 2006-2008. They never forgave him for his sub-par 2005 season and watching a called strike 3 in the LCS. The odd irony is that if he makes the HOF he’ll probably wear a Mets cap.

    Never making the WS probably hurts Beltran a little but probably the worst thing is that Center Fielders are traditionally very under-valued by baseball.

    Beltran has a career line of .282/.360/.496, He has a good chance of finishing with: 1500 Runs scored, 1500 Rbi, 2500 hits, 400 Hr, and 1000 walks. Currently he’s 306/356 for stolen bases which is outstanding for a gold glove CF.

    He probably should finish his career with 1500 runs and 1500 rbi’s, and 400 HR. Only 3 Center Fielders have finished with those type of numbers: Willie Mays, Ken Griffey jr. and Mickey Mantle. Only 5 CF have finished their career with 1500 RBI and 1500 Runs scored: Mays, Griffey, Mantle, Cobb and Speaker.

    Only Mays and Griffey have finished their career with 1500 R & RBi, and 400 HR and 2500 hits while playing 50% of their games at CF.

    Only 21 position players have finished with 1500 runs, 1500 rbi, 400 HR, 2500 hits: Ruth, Bonds, T. Williams, Aaron, Mays, Foxx, F. Robinson, R. Jackson, A-Rod, C. Ripken, R. Palmeiro, Manny, Murray, Gehrig, C. Jones, Griffey, Yaz, Musial, Winfield, Sheffield, Ott,

    Every none steroid guy has been elected to the HOF.

  307. Bob Says:

    1.The Padres released Micah Owings.
    2. Zito will start Game 1.

  308. Bob Says:

    Carlton Fisk was charged with a DUI

  309. Mike Felber Says:

    Betran is worthy Len, good points! Chuck, thought you had said you DO admit you were wrong, methinks this tends to be on indisputable factual points. It is undeniable that you mixed up both what saber folks believe about the weight that should be accorded the post season and what they believe about Beltran!

    Would be nice if you jus’ acknowledged the obvious.,,, & any other SM forum you care to mention could affirm this.

    Now your catering scenarios-what I worked in were overwhelmingly neither Podunk local biz., nor independent ethnic places. Closest I did to that was Abigail’s gigs, a nice Kosher restaurant/event Midtown venue. Some fancy corporate, private fancy homes, many large/top end catering & event halls/bar mitzvah/wedding & big fundraiser types of events, sometimes outside NYC. One big shot rented out all of the Wintergarden for a bat mitzvah. A guy infamous for selling defective body armor to Gov’t did the same for millions, for the whole Rainbow Room 2 floors(!)-that was set up & breakdown for Event Co. Catered mainly through At Your Service, Wait 4 Me, Choices, & Dan Williams. Occasionally CTI (they handle Ciprini’s venues), rarely Sterling, these sometimes shared gigs w/other agencies like Great Expectations.

  310. Len Says:


    You start looking at some of Beltran’s career numbers and it’s kind of amazing the groups of names the he’s lumped into. There’s only been 35 players in BB history that have had 1500 runs and 1500 rbi’s. Beltran is only 35 and he only needs about 250 runs and 250 rbi’s to reach the 1500/1500 goal. You add the 400 hr and the 2500 hits and your talking about 21 players. Then you could add that this guy was a gold glove center fielder.

    His post season numbers are outstanding: 151 plate appearances, 14 home runs, .363/.470/.782

  311. Raul Says:

    If your next comment is that Beltran is among the best 21 players ever, I’m gonna have to tell you to stop right there.

  312. Mike Felber Says:

    lol, an understated & well placed critique by Raul!

    Len, Beltran is definitely deserving of the Hall even now. But you do realize that those raw #s are heavily context dependent, right? Era, line up, & park influence them for anyone. Elo rater has him #109 amongst batters in their comparisons. I would rate him higher than that, but not an upper echelon Hall man.

    His game is complete & impressive though, but for perspective, ELo rater has Schmidt, Foxx, Kaline & Yaz, 18-21. Kaline seems a bit too high, though I like him, Yaz likely too, though had superb longevity & 3 super years. But I would not put Beltran on the same tier as them.

  313. Mike Felber Says:

    RIP Walking Man.

  314. Raul Says:

    When you’re talking about all time great center fielders, the list goes something like


    And if you’re talking strictly defensive players, then you’ll look at guys like Dom DiMaggio, Andruw Jones, Paul Blair and countless others i am forgetting.

  315. Mike Felber Says:

    Jim Piersall.

  316. Raul Says:

    I keep forgetting to mention Tris Speaker when talking about CFers…who may or may not rank above DiMaggio depending on whether you think everyone who played before WWII sucked ass.

  317. Raul Says:

    As best I can tell, there have been 25 instances where a player got at least 200 hits and 100 walks in a single season.

    Lou Gehrig has 7 of them.

  318. Chuck Says:

    After all this time it’s still somewhat amazing to me how poorly sarcasm plays out on the internet.

  319. Raul Says:

    You have to make it obvious.

  320. Raul Says:

    1984 Detroit Tigers

    C – Lance Parrish
    1B – Dave Bergman
    2B – Lou Whitaker
    SS – Alan Trammell
    3B – Howard Johnson
    LF – Larry Herndon
    CF – Chet Lemon
    RF – Kirk Gibson
    DH – Darrell Evans

    UT – Barbaro Garbey
    IF – Tom Brookens
    OF – Ruppert Jones
    UT – Johnny Grubb

    SP – Jack Morris
    SP – Dan Petry
    SP – Milt Wilcox
    SP – Juan Berenguer
    SP – Dave Rozema

    CL – Willie Hernandez
    RP – Aurelio Lopez
    RP – Doug Bair


    Would the 2012 Detroit Tigers beat that team?

  321. Chuck Says:

    Guess so.

    If Jack Morris doesn’t beat Smoltz in that 1-0 ten inning Game 7, he’s off the ballot five years ago.

    The main arguing point for Schilling, and even Smoltz, is their postseason records.

    SM people make much worse arguments than that, though, that much we know. Remember John Q’s argument that Tim Raines should get credit for the year and a half he lost due to the two strikes?

  322. Chuck Says:

    It would be a six or seven gamer, but I’d say yes.

    Better defensively, maybe a little more consistent at the back end of the rotation and bullpen.

  323. Raul Says:

    I see no reason to give credit for missing playing time due to labor disputes, any more than I would give Ron Guidry credit for being held down by George Steinbrenner.

    It may suck, but that’s not a reason to automatically say X-player would have had Y-season.

    Maybe there’s no labor dispute, and Tim Raines takes a wild pitch to the face.
    Maybe Ron Guidry gets called up early and tears his rotator cuff.

    We can’t just assume the best, or even the status quo…and act like it’s an argument that should hold up to send a player to the highest honor the sport can offer.

  324. Raul Says:

    Is there a simulator i can run?

  325. Chuck Says:

    ESPN debuted a new “30 in 30″ last night, “Benji”.

    I remember the shit storm after it happened.

  326. Chuck Says:

  327. Raul Says:

    Man, ESPN is really struggling for stories, aren’t they?

    Kid has a tough guy attitude and a lot of talent and it goes to waste.
    I never heard that story before…

  328. Raul Says:

    The way I ran the simulator, the 2012 Tigers won in 7 games.

    The 1984 Tigers beat Verlander twice. Though I didn’t really take the time to set up the rotations in an ideal playoff format.

  329. Chuck Says:

    Go to Baseball Reference and click on the lineups for each game and the starting pitchers..that’s all I do.

    The computer picks the relievers and subs.

  330. Chuck Says:

    The Tigers couldn’t beat the Bad News Bears in a 7 game series if Verlander lost twice.


  331. Len Says:

    No way, the 1984 team was a great team.

    They won 104 games and I believe they were in first the entire season back when there were 7 teams in the A.L. East.

    They had a great up the middle core both offensively/defensively: Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker and Lemon. And Chet Lemon was a very underrated player, he probably deserved 4-5 gold gloves. Whitaker and Trammell should be in the HOF. Parish was an 8 time all star and 6 time Silver Slugger and 3 time gold glove winner. He looked like he was on a HOF path and then his career seemed to be derailed when he went to Philadelphia.

    Then they had Gibson in right D. Evans as a DH and platoons in left: Herndon/Jones, 3rd: Johnson/Brookens, and First: Garbey/Bergman.

    Willie Hernandez was insane that year, 140 innings with 112 k’s a 1.92 era. Then they had Aurelio Lopez with a 2.92 era in 137 innings with 94 K’s

    Their starting pitching was o.k, not great. Dan Petry was their best pitcher. Morris was o.k. but like he did throughout his career benefitted greatly from run support and Tiger defense.

  332. Chuck Says:

    Game 1: 2012 8, 1984 6. W Verlander, L Morris, S Valverde

    Morris allowed all 8 runs on six hits in six IP.

    HR: Whitaker, Trammell, Cabrera, Fielder, Young.

    Game 2: 84 10 12 3. W Petry L Fister.

    Petry scattered 12 hits in a CG. Fister allowed 8 earned runs in 3.2 innings.

    HR: Lemon 2, Gibson

    Game 3 84 18, 12 7 W Bair, L Scherzer.

    Scherzer allowed 9 er in 4.2 IP, Detroit starter Milt Wilcox 6 in 3.1. 84 team scored 12 runs in the fifth inning, all with two outs and all on homers; a three run shot by Howard Johnson and grand slams by Trammell and Parrish.

    HR: Dirks, Johnson, Lemon, Trammell, Parrish (2), Evans (2)

    Game 4 84 11 12 7 W Morris L Sanchez S-Hernandez

    HR: Trammell, Parrish (2), Evans

    Game 5 12 3, 84 1 W: Verlander, L Petry, S Valverde

    Second win for Verlander, second complete game loss for Petry.

    HR: none

    Game 6: 84 6, 12 4, W Wilcox, L Fister, S Hernandez.

    HR: Parrish, Fielder, Young, Peralta.

    Lance Parrish MVP, .544 avg, 5 HR, 16 RBI.

  333. Len Says:

    There’s a baseball simulator on baseball reference?

  334. Bob Says:

    Leyland vs. Sparky?

  335. Bob Says:

    Chet Lemon 1984 vs. 2012 Austin Jackson. I was curious about that, keeping in mind Lemon played in Tiger Stadium.

    1. Jackson had 163 hits and a .377 on-base %
    2. Lemon had 146 hits and a .357 on-base %

    1, Jackson had 16 dingers and 12 swipes in 21 attempts.
    2. Lemon had 20 homers, and 5 steals in 10 tries.

    1. Jackson had 169 runs and rbi’s
    2. Lemon had 153 runs and rbi’s.
    3. Giving the edge to Jackson

  336. Chuck Says:, Len

  337. Bob Says:

    ” Lance Parrish MVP” Tina Turner would be proud.

  338. Len Says:

    that baseball simulator is cool. You would probably have to simulate the games about a million times in order to see who would win the most.

    I remember Baseball Weekly back in the early 1990’s ran a simulated all time team tournament. I think they simulated each series a million times and I think the 1953 Dodgers won it. I kind of remember the ‘53 Dodgers always doing great on those simulators.

  339. Len Says:

    Lance Parish was a great player and then I don’t know what happened to him. I know he was part of the collusion when he went to Philadelphia but his career just fell off a cliff around age 30.

  340. Raul Says:

    Wonder what the simulator says about 2012 Yankees.
    Any hitting and they blow the Tigers out of the water.
    On the other hand, the Yankees’ playoff pitching was really good. Maybe, too good. Like, lucky good.

  341. Mike Felber Says:

    A Million times, wow. Though any simulation cannot know just how good folks were on average. Either could win, but Verlander would be a key, much better than Morris.

    You can argue either way about credit for time not played when a guy 1) is not injured, 2) could not play for reasons not his fault, or an urgent matter like war. I would give it. Because how good someone was is about their capacities. Anything COULD happen, but it is very likely that a guy at a certain level before & after he was gone would produce around that level. Whether a Ted Williams or a strike or being in the Negro Leagues, we should consider how good they actually were too.

    Since you chose to bring up a fallacy again Chuck, I must correct you. The post season play of Schilling & Smoltz is NOT post season play. I can link discussions about it on sites like HHS. Now if you mean that you personally think that is all they have that is a decent case, that is something different But both you & saber advocates do not think that PS play should be a huge deal. Though when you have enough IP/PA of excellent quality, it can help.

  342. Raul Says:

    Playoff performance shouldn’t ever matter in HOF candidacy.
    Doesn’t matter if you go 0-10 or 0-100 or 90-100

  343. Mike Felber Says:

    Seems like Joe D. also has an only decent defensive rating for the same reason that wrote me back that Speaker did. CF was not a prime defensive position then, they do not get the same positional credit. Red meat for skeptics to complain about.

    I would take Speaker over Joe. More durable at least.

  344. Mike Felber Says:

    That is an outlier opinion Raul. The games count, & are the most important/crucial for their teams. I can see an argument that they should only be proportionately weighted, but that is it. While The Hall of Fame should not be taken as about fame itself, there is nothing whatsoever in the bylaws that suggest it should be confined to only the regular season. Logically, all that counts & is part of official MLB play & the race for championships should be included.

    One extreme position is to make a few or even one great show highly important-that is wrong whether Morris or a bloody sock. Yet if you, say, pitch the equivalent of a great 1/2 season or so, it would be an injustice to give that no weight at all. Not that I or other Schilling/Smoltz advocates think they need it.

  345. Raul Says:

    Nobody has any way to proportionately weigh post season play vs regular season play.

  346. Chuck Says:

    “that suggest it should be confined to only the regular season.”

    There are alot of common sense things the HOF bylaws don’t mention.

    Because, you know, it’s common sense.

  347. Chuck Says:

    Slade Heathcott’s having a tough time in the AFL.

  348. Mike Felber Says:

    True Chuck, though Occam’s Razor suggests that if there is no contradiction of common sense-assuming that there is consensus on what is common sense, that it is supported by reason, not superstition &/or culturally biased assumptions-we should go with common sense. You do believe that PS play should have SOME weight, right? Especially when there is a statistically significant # of appearances. Which is easier to rack up in the modern era, & especially for hurlers due to usage.

  349. Raul Says:

    Slade Heathcott was drafted 3 years ago and is still in A-ball.
    I know he got injured, but come on.

    Or did he get promoted this year?

  350. Chuck Says:

    “You do believe that PS play should have SOME weight, right?”



  351. Chuck Says:

    Heathcott’s been hurt three times since he was drafted..a knee and his left (throwing) shoulder twice.

  352. Raul Says:

    Heathcott is built physically like Mike Trout.
    Too bad he doesn’t have half of Trout’s ability.

  353. Mike Felber Says:

    Whaaa? What I am saying is at least give it EQUAL value to the regular season. You simply check out games, AB, PA…Jeter & his 734 PA do not deserve to be taken into account? Maddux, Glavine & others who got to pitch a full season’s worth get no credit?! Perhaps you will listen to reason via Chuck’s opinion in this regard!

    We know that competition is if anything at least a little better on this level. Especially for batters that do well, since not only the better TEAMS make it to the PS, but the best twirlers throw disproportionately-that is why the average offensive stats go down.

    So these factors mean if anything we should weight those games a bit more, even if giving them zero credit for being crucial/clutch/leverage factors. Just because we can never know with metaphysical certitude just how much to weight them does not mean we should not try.

    But I am saying that a conservative position would be at MINIMUM just treat them as important as a regular season game. To discount them completely is opposed to the whole point of the game & a Hall of Fame.

  354. Mike Felber Says:

    OK then, disregard only the last line in the 1st paragraph above. I am surprised that you feel this way. I have rarely encountered this idea.

  355. Chuck Says:

    “Jeter & his 734 PA do not deserve to be taken into account?”

    Not any more than Ernie Banks’ zero.

  356. Chuck Says:

    Postseason is a team reward…HOF is an individual reward.

    Doesn’t get any simpler than that.

    If the postseason mattered, then Lonnie Smith would be a first ballot guy.

  357. Chuck Says:

    Looking at someone’s postseason record is an indication to me that the guy isn’t worthy on his regular season history and you’re trying to justify a vote.

  358. Mike Felber Says:

    Your sentiment for fairness is ironically just what the saber crowd uses when adjusting stats for context. Most all traditionalists would agree with this principle-otherwise Lefty Grove’s 9 ERA & ERA + titles would not mean much due to his only good .306 ERA.

    Getting to the PS is due to a team. But the individual players do things in these most crucial games. It would ironically be penalizing them unfairly to not credit what they accomplish. It is not like those who do not get there are punished.

  359. Chuck Says:

    Without the postseason, Jorge Posada is Paul LoDuca.

    Would you vote for Paul LoDuca?

  360. Chuck Says:

    If you stayed away from the saber crap and presented a solid, fact based BASEBALL argument, you would have a chance to convince me Schilling or Raines were worthy.

    A small chance, but a chance nonetheless.

    There is NO argument you can make that would get me to consider the postseason/HOF argument.

    It makes absolutely no sense at all.

    I want BBWAA rights so I can vote for Bobby Pfeil.

  361. Mike Felber Says:

    I DID present wholly non-saber-based arguments for those guys. Repeatedly. You also have not disputed my logic that while getting there is team based, the PS performance is anything but. And is the natural province of any HOF.

    But fuhgettiboutit. A cliff notes version of my long case for Schilling:

    Moderate IP/career length. His ERA is actually indisputably excellent for his era & park. Without the benefit of great defenses. Unusually low in unearned runs. His So/BB is virtually the very best EVER, & this is 2/3rd of what a pitcher does that he has much control over. His peak value was at least proportionate to his career value. We tend to have big impressions of those who succeed early, & tons of players are essentially DONE by ~ 33. It does not matter that most of his value was created late in his career.

  362. Mike Felber Says:

    I admire your objectivity about your favorite team’s members, really Chuck. And I have Posada short of the HOF-though if he had been great handling pitchers I could have picked him.

    But really, he is Paul Loduca?!?!?! Where did you come up with this idea, because their SB/CS #s are near identical?

    Posada has the better part of 2X as many PAs. And played the most valuable position almost always.

    Career OPS +
    Posada, 121.
    Loduca, 97.

    Yep, almost mirror images! :-)

  363. Len Says:

    Jorge Posada – Paul Loduca??? C’mon that’s ridiculous.

    Posada had a lifetime line of .275/.374/.474, .848 ops, with 275 HR, 1065 RBI, 900 runs scored, 2888 TB, and 5 Silver Slugger awards.

    Lo duca had a lifetime line of .284/.337/.409, .746 ops, with 80 HR, 481 RBI, 483 runs scored, 1590 TB, and he was named on the Mitchell Report.

    Among catchers Posada ranks: 7th all time with a .848 ops, 8th all time in HR, 11th all time in RBI, and 11th all time in Runs and 11th all time in Total Bases.

    Posada was one of the top 25 catchers of all time and he probably would have had a decent HOF shot if he had become a regular earlier in his career. He didn’t really become a regular until 2000 when he was 28 years old.

  364. Raul Says:

    Posada was a terrible defensive player who put up nice numbers with better teammates in the best offensive era ever.
    Slow your roll

  365. Len Says:

    There’s no stipulation in HOF voting that says you can’t include post season success into the candidate’s qualifications. I think each voter decides for himself. Schilling is going to get in regardless of post season success because he has the numbers. It definitely helps his case but his has the numbers regardless.

    I think this was a bigger deal before ESPN & cable and all the games being broadcasted on t.v. I can’t think of any player who’s career started in the 1970’s who was greatly helped or wouldn’t have been voted in without post-season credit. Maybe Bruce Sutter?

    Whereas you had guys like Brooks Robinson who probably wouldn’t have been voted into the HOF had he played for the Chicago White Sox in the 60’s-70’s. Same goes for Tony Perez who I think was a marginal candidate anyway. Tony Perez wasn’t even good in the post season, he just got in because he played on great teams. There’s no way Bill Mazerowski would have gotten in but now your talking about the Veteran’s committee.

    Phil Rizzutto & Tony Lazzeri wouldn’t have made it without being on the Yankees. Rollie Fingers wouldn’t have made it without the post-season. Catfish Hunter wouldn’t have made it had he played on the White Sox during the 60’s-70’s or some other mediocre team. Lou Brock was helped by his post season success. Drysdale was helped so was Reese & Snider. Whitey Ford was definitely helped by playing on the Yankees. If he switched teams with Billy Pierce, Pierce would be in the HOF and Ford wouldn’t. Koufax was helped by post season. That’s basically going back to the 1970’s elections.

    I can’t even comment on a lot of those veteran’s committee selections from the 60’s-70’s because they’re pretty awful.

  366. Len Says:

    Well yeah, Posada was a poor defensive catcher no doubt. If he was a great defensive catcher he’d be a HOF candidate.

    I think the task was to present a non-saber argument. You can’t say, “present a non-saber argument” and then piss on the numbers because they don’t fit your argument.

    Are his numbers inflated from the era? definitely, if they weren’t he would be a HOF candidate. Again, I said he’s probably in the top 25 catchers of all time.

  367. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, raw #s exaggerate Posada’s prowess & he was not great defensively-though terrible may be overstating it. Rather have him then a certain Met’s/LA catcher behind the plate (only defensively). And though your overall point is valid, ~ 1930 was an even more potent offensive era than ~ 2000.

    I agree with you on most all of those examples Len. Ford had a better ERA + & lost war time, but they have virtually identical WARs. Pierce had a year with a 200 OPS +! The human vacuum cleaner/Mr. Impossible played forever, & while defense has sometimes been overrated, Brooksie was good enough overall & played forever, I think he would have been voted in if playing elsewhere.

    Was he part of the the best defensive team ever? Hand to say.

  368. Raul Says:

    Rizzuto has a stronger argument for HOF based on his impact through 40 years of broadcasting.
    Your argument against Ford is preposterous.

  369. Chuck Says:

    Per the HOF Monitor, Posada has a 98, with a score of 100 being the so-called magic number for induction, so based STRICTLY ON THAT, Posada is an on the fence candidate.

    The Monitor awards 6 points if you were a regular catcher on a World Series team. Posada played in six WS and was the regular catcher in five..that’s 30 points.

    It awards five points for being the regular catcher on an LCS team, Posada played in eight LCS and was the regular catcher in seven, that’s 35.

    It awards two points for being the regular catcher on a division series team, Posada played in fifteen and was the regular catcher in 12, that’s 29 points.

    That’s 89 of his 98 points just on postseason appearances.

    Paul LoDuca’s career Monitor score is 21. He was the regular catcher on one DS and one LCS team, which totals seven.

    Take away the postseason, LoDuca’s HOF monitor score is 14, Posada’s is 9.

  370. Chuck Says:

    #365..Whatever you’re smokin’ Len, I want some.

    Holy shit.

  371. JohnBowen Says:

    @369, I don’t think you can double count post-season appearances in the HOF monitor.

    Posada gets 6 points for being the regular catcher for the 2000 Yankees World Series team. He doesn’t get 6 for the World Series, 5 for ALCS and 2 for the ALDS for a grand total of 13…he just gets 6 for the post-season.

    Still not a HOFer, in my opinion, but come on. Paul Lo Duca?

  372. Len Says:


    Well you’re confusing the whole concept of HOF monitor and you made some errors in your calculations. Jorge Posada with a (9)?? non post season HOF monitor?? For God’s sake’s Butch Wynegar had a 21 HOF monitor and he never appeared in a post season game.

    The HOF monitor is the “likelihood” that someone will be elected. It’s not saying who’s better player or who is a more deserving player. A score of 100 gives you a “good” chance at being elected. I never said Posada deserved or should be in the HOF, I was just responding to your ridiculous claim that he’s Paul Lo Duca with post season credit.

    You made some mistakes in your post-season calculations. You double counted LCS teams that went on the WS for one. It says in the HOF monitor, “you get 5 points for a LCS non WS team” Posada played in two LCS losers, 2010 and 2004. He wasn’t a regular on the 2010 team so he only received 5 points for the LCS not 35.

    You double counted the Division Series teams that went on to the LCS or WS. How did you get 12 teams as a regular worth 2 points each and come up with 29? He was a regular catcher on 4 division series losers, ‘02, ‘05, ‘06, and ‘07. He played on the ‘95, ‘97, and 2011 teams but I don’t think they gave him credit for that.

    I’m not sure what they’re counting as “regular catcher” for a WS team because Posada didn’t even start 90 games for the 1998 and 2009 Yankees and he only started 98 games for the 1999 Yankees.

    I’m not sure exactly what they counted as “regular catcher” so let’s take it the other way from his non post-season credit.

    He received 2.5 points for a .300 season. He received 3 points for a 100 rbi season. He received 2 points for a 30 HR season. He received 3 points for (3) 35+ double seasons. He received 15 points for 5 All Star game appearances. He received 30 points for catching 1574 games. So all together that’s 55.5 points of non post-season credit in the HOF monitor.

  373. Chuck Says:

    That could very well be true, John, but even at that over half his career value is PS appearances.

    Tongue in cheek.

  374. Mike Felber Says:

    Len beat meto it, well laid out Len. This is pretty basic, that HOF monitor measures the odds of making it to the HOF, nor worthiness. It is pretty effective, measuring largely raw #s. It makes sense that Posada would be seen as about borderline in his likelihood-not worthiness-of being elected.

    Ford is an interesting case. WAR rates him a little short of the HOF for both career & peak value, even adding a bit of batting & fielding credit. Though look at the advanced stats, adjusted wins, saves: he is listed 10th all time in base out runs saved, also base out wins saved! Even if this only goes back to the middle of last century, to do this with less than 3200 IP is very impressive.

    And he has a 133 ERA +! Now he is credited with excellent defenses throughout his career, & his peripherals are not as good as his ERA +. But does WAR fairly represent him? I am really asking, not sure. His teams clearly benefited his raw #s, but I guess the question is, did the context really inflate the ERA/ERA + enough to make a quite good pitcher look like a HOFer?

    Because I cannot find anyone else in an off the cuff search who has a 130 ERA +, over 3000 IP, & WAR #s below HOF-justified levels. Hal Newhouser approached 3K IP w/a 130 ERA +, worse defenses, & is ranked bit higher. He actually had 6 excellent years-much better peak than Whitey-to finish the 40’s, & that was about it.

  375. Chuck Says:

    The point isn’t whether Ford would be a HOFer if he didn’t play for the Yankees, it’s playing for the Yankees shouldn’t matter.

  376. Raul Says:

    What the fuck are we talking about? Whitey Ford is in. Rizzuto is in.
    Everyone agrees Posada doesn’t belong.

    Move it along.

  377. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, no Raul, this is an open forum where folks are free to comment what how they like on baseball. There is no virtue & no chance of success in attempting to censor & police content that you are uninterested in. Also, everyone here, & many others, AND you, have argued or commented at some-great length about folks who are in & undeserving, BBWAA & Veteran’s committee picks.

    Yes, Chuck, we all agree that playing for the Yankees should not matter. But an obvious & often discussed, valid point is whether guys got in or out unfairly, & how good they really were. Question for me is: was Ford particularly “efficient” in stranding runners? If so, that would partially explain his ERA + quality compared to WAR not acknowledging this.

  378. Raul Says:

    I’m free to tell you guys when you’re being dickheads and beating a dead horse.

    And I’ve done so quite successfully and often.


  379. Chuck Says:

    “Question for me is: was Ford particularly “efficient” in stranding runners?”

    Why would you even look at something like that?

    It might help if you look in the right place.

    Ford allowed 3880 baserunners and 967 earned runs.

    So, yeah, he was pretty efficient in stranding runners.

    Once again, the issue is not understanding your subject well enough to apply the right stats/formulas to your question.

  380. Mike Felber Says:

    lol, when have you ever been successful Raul? You get yourself all upset when you have are called in a not unkind way by me about bullying conduct. You never have nor will get me to drop a baseball subject I want to pursue, & I never saw you intimidate, thank goodness, or successfully sensor another.

    Also, while you & others have brought up the same things many times, I do not even ever recall Ford being brought up here. It is disturbing, especially on so sparely attended a web site, that you would attempt to silence folks on these issues. Though feel free to ignore things or bring up your own issues. You will never see me a hypocrite & presuming to tell you to move along.

    Why would I check stranding runners Chuck? For the reason I made clear: the conflict between some of his advanced stats & WAR, & that his WAR is low for that ERA + & IP. Also his ERA + looks better than his peripherals.

    You recently did not know what SM folks value re: Bthe postseason, Beltran, nor even what the HOF monitor meant. I dunno why you would try to say I do not understand the subject well enough-though I do appreciate any light shed on the matter.

    I need to see if those # of baserunners & earned runs is particularly good, & what the story may be with unearned runs. From your #s he happens to be almost precisely at 3:1.

  381. Chuck Says:

    “lol, when have you ever been successful Raul?”

    There are no words.

  382. Chuck Says:

    “Why would I check stranding runners Chuck?”

    Pay attention Mike, I’ll try and type slowly.


    It really shouldn’t be this fucking difficult.

    It took me 30 seconds for chrissakes.

  383. Chuck Says:

    “For the reason I made clear: the conflict between some of his advanced stats & WAR, & that his WAR is low for that ERA + & IP”

    You don’t see the problem with that Mike?

    Honestly not trying to be an asshole here, but WTF does that have to do with anything?

  384. Chuck Says:

    “I dunno why you would try to say I do not understand the subject well enough..”

    Yes you do..without question.

    You CLEARLY have, at best, an elementary knowledge of baseball.

  385. Chuck Says:

    “& what the story may be with unearned runs.”

    Unearned runs are irrelevant.

    Because, you know, they’re not his fault.

    Elementary, my dear Felber.

  386. Raul Says:

    I’m successful all the time here Mike.
    What irritates you so much is that I refuse to address your mundane arguments to the nth degree because I feel no need to satisfy your delicate sensibilities.
    …well, that…and the fact that I have no qualms of telling you to fuck off when you’re being annoying.

    Let me be clear. I have no personal feelings towards you Mike. And despite what you think you read into my emotions based on a few f bombs, you elicit zero frustrations from me.

    Posada isn’t a hall of Famer. Rizzuto is. Ford is.
    We don’t feel the need to argue over the same things over and over again.

    Notice all the Jim Rice debates have ended once he got elected.

    So like I said…let’s move on, cock gobbler.

  387. Mike Felber Says:

    I just explained why I would check stranding runners Chuck. No need to patronize as if I would not nor could not do so. You thought of it 1st, great. I need to see if that rate is unusual. Ford did have good defenses to help prevent runs scoring. Also, some find unusual rates of unearned runs can have some reflection upon the pitcher who put the guy on.

    You merely saying I know little about something are more assertions lacking evidence. I just pointed out 3 basic things you did not know, about what SM guys say about Cabrera, post season play, & the HOF monitor. Yet you presume to critique things you do not understand well. And you tend to assign lack of knowledge to those who differ with you.

    This is defending Ego more than as rational & fair as possible. Not that you do not know much about the game. And you HAVE gotten markedly calmer & nicer, that is to your credit.

  388. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, some of what you are saying are lies. Not necessarily to me or us, but to yourself. I am naive sometimes, not as much as you say, but the case is clear.

    1) I did not critique you for not addressing things to the nth degree. Choose what to address. I DO fault you for answering without knowing what I am saying, or putting words in my mouth, or launching personal attacks. When something “annoys” you, that does not mean I have done anything wrong, & you get nasty & petty.

    2) An example of your lack of care of the truth, which relates to your being deluded about it: Chuck took a quote out of context, & you ran with it. I did NOT indicate you are not ever successful here, & do not believe that. I said you have never been successful trying to censor/shut me or anyone else up. Let me amend that: I thought later there was one 1 time I recall that John admitted he was being an asshole. Possibly there was another time or 2 I did not notice.

    But that was due to him taking a mean tone. Not shutting him up re: what he was talking about, getting him not to comment on a baseball subject you do not like.

    3) It is wildly inappropriate for you to try to order anyone to “move on” when you are not interested in a subject. The heart & soul of web sites like this is to discuss academic matters, & you also (fairly) express opinions about things already settled. We shut up about Rice because we had all made the case in great detail before his election.

    4) No reasonable person would conclude that you do not have bad personal feelings towards me, or anyone you address in such ways, such as with personal demeaning & derisive statements & speculations. Chuck is just denititionally (sic) incorrect that you need to have met someone to have personal feelings.

    If you really believe that you comments-that go way beyond a few F bombs-show no frustration, you are seriously deluded. At least in this regard.

    Don’t speak for everyone. Many like to discuss who deserves the Hall, whether in or not. Chuck & I argued long ago about folks like Maz. Respectfully. But you would not have told him to shut up: because you are emotional & biased.

    Save yourself what I believe anyone else would recognize as frustration. When I get some answers about Ford, I am gonna express my opinions about it. Stop trying to be a cyber bully & tell me not to. It is antithetical to the purpose of a web site like this, absurd, wholly ineffective, unpeaceful…

    And way out of line. I asked questions about Ford since I was unsure what advanced metrics applied, & am WILLING to question whether WAR applies. This can be instructive in other cases, & is the essence of being open minded.

    Now your name calling addendum is at best immature. SO you can get away with it here, congratulations, 9 year olds everywhere would be proud.

  389. Raul Says:

    Not even gonna read that diatribe.
    It’s clear however that nobody points more fingers at people than Felber.

    The World Series is going on brah. You have anything to contribute? Or would you like to keep talking about dead guys whose playing career was 60 years ago?

  390. JohnBowen Says:

    Mike, we’ve pretty well figured out where we all stand on HOFers. Raul’s right. The fucking whole point of the season is happening right now. Talk about that.

  391. Chuck Says:

    “You merely saying I know little about something are more assertions lacking evidence”

    You don’t know shit about baseball, Mike, and my evidence is the three years you’ve been posting here.

    When Raul and I are talking about ARod’s hitting mechanics, you are no where to be found..because you don’t know anything about hitting.

    When John’s talking about whether the Brewers should trade Greinke, you’re no where to be found because you have no clue about whether it’s a good idea.

    Whitey Ford’s strand rate is proof ten year old could find in and PROPERLY apply it to his ERA in less time than it took me to write this post, and yet you’re going off on some tangent about shit that doesn’t even matter.

    You cannot in any reasonable sense dispute any of that.

    I know you’ll try though.

  392. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul you are in denial, deluded about your motivation & actions. You have been personal & abusive, yet without reading my case you smear it as a “diatribe”. On some level you do not want to face what you are, including hypocrisy. So be it, but don’t try to censor & mock other’s free baseball expression.

    John, I have been talking about what is going on now. Everyone else here including Raul, has discussed old & prospective HOFers this PS. This is not unusual nor wrong. The selective intolerance & attacks are, & would not stand on most any other site.

    Chuck, you are partially right.

    I do not know as much about hitting mechanics as most-like you two-who played beyond Little League. Though I did discuss swings & trajectories, post links debate & ask questions-at length. Your final argument involved many hahahaha’s (sic). If you were right & wanted to prove a point/educate someone, that was wrong.

    I never claimed to be following many player’s enough to know, often, what trade should be made. And then I properly make no case. I am not morally obligated to follow everything or closely, this is optional.

    But you assume things incorrectly. Like I could not find Ford’s Strand rate. Like when I have repeatedly cited Three (3) basic things you were ignorant about recently, you ignore it-but should I not know something, it means not knowing the whole sport! And by the way, you did not properly apply it to his ERA, since you had not compared it to others.

    Most all on about every other forum, IF they had info & were correct-would just share the evidence, not demean other’s knowledge at every opportunity. Though to be fair, over time, you have gotten much nicer/better.

  393. Raul Says:

    Lol I’m in denial?
    Right. Because you have some expert friends at the gym that taught you all about psychology, I’m sure.
    You probably also interned at an office and no doubt read a few papers.

    This is a baseball website and you don’t know anything about baseball. You don’t even watch baseball. The biggest event of the fucking season is happening right now and all you want to do is talk about HOF monitor and whether or not this site is polite enough for you.

    Please dude.
    Get in line or enjoy yourself at Hardball Times.

  394. Mike Felber Says:

    Wrong Raul. 1st off Chuck mentioned HOF monitor recently, he & others discuss HOF members already enshrined. Your comment rage is selective & hypocritical.

    I watch little baseball, since I canceled TV a long time ago. That is not a moral flaw. Also I have talked about the PS now, how could you not notice?

    I did not intern, but took some Psychology & read a fair amount. What I observe is easily confirmed & does not require an advanced degree.

    Your contempt is a personal issue & sorely misplaced. Funny line though re: being taught about Psychology by iron heads.

  395. Bob Says:

    Mike, just to get this straight. You do not have a TV and you either drink rarely or completely avoid alcohol? And you live in NYC? And then you lament the fact you are sans wife/girlfriend/significant other?

  396. Raul Says:

    My rage?

    The balls on you to think you’re that important that anyone would give a shit to be angry over your pedantic douchebaggery.

    Hilarious, brah.

  397. Mike Felber Says:

    You are a bit of a rage-aholic Raul. Who just exercised the cold variant of it by trying to belittle my status. i do not play those Alpha male BS games, even in person. But as you said to me before in a kind moment, I bet you are decent in person.

    Bob, I did not lament anything. I just reported my situation modestly. TV when overdone tends to keep one numb & less social. I just do not like alcohol. But I do not avoid bars, even went recently to (offered last minute when need folks) free speed dating in them, approach ladies, had a nice walking around a Bk. Open Studios date last weekend, a date of sorts yesterday…

    There are a gazillion things to do here. Especially if you get the lists/e-newseletters/know where to look. How about you, partnered Bob?

  398. Bob Says:


  399. Bob Says:

    And I have cable and drink, though modestly these days.

  400. Raul Says:

    I’m not a rage-a-anything, chief.

    You’re a pedantic pseudo-intellectual.

  401. Bob Says:

    1. Have a good night you guys.
    2. TGIF!!!

  402. Mike Felber Says:

    I am pedantic, which is not necessarily good or bad. Depends on context & manner, on forums like this it generally is useful & appreciated. I am not pseudo-unlike you & many, I am radically honest, I do not ignore evidence or arguments that are inconvenient.

    Though I do not think you are lying-wish you were only doing that-about not being a rage-a-holic. Your attitude towards so many things & people is very angry, resentful, aggressively hostile. Ask folks close to you to give an honest opinion. Unless your character here is totally different & you do not rteveal with them all you hate you will find out the truth.

  403. Raul Says:

    Listen up, sweet chucks…

    Being pedantic is always bad. It’s the very essence behind being a douchebag.
    It’s one thing if you were actually right about anything. But you aren’t.

  404. JohnBowen Says:

    So, no game tonight. Which means, none of us will be watching baseball, as opposed to just Mike.

    Unless there’s some AFL games tonight? Probably.

  405. Chuck Says:

    Mike, I deserve some credit here.

    When I ignore you, that’s my way of acknowledging you’re full of shit and it’s not worth any energy trying to debate with you.

    Mike: “Batter’s swing up, and there’s no evidence Bagwell did steriods”.

    Chuck: ______________________________________________________________________

  406. Chuck Says:

    “Unless there’s some AFL games tonight?”


  407. Raul Says:

    Wait. He actually said batters swing up?

    Like an underhanded free throw?

  408. Mike Felber Says:

    Sweet “Chucks”? Is that your pet name for the guy here you are a 1 man Amen corner for?

    Pedantic is very good in many contexts requiring attention to detail, respecting another’s idea(l)s enough to answer them, being fair &/or balanced. I recently corrected a bunch of facts nobody can dispute, about SM & other things. Saying “you are never right” is not presenting any evidence. In fact, Chuck 7 you recently FALSELY accused me of saying you are never successful, when I said it about censoring folks.

    One of many things ignored NOT due to anything but seeming Ego, not being big enough to say, “whoops, your comment is undeniable, my bad”.

    Chuck, this is what you often do. Furthermore, “full of shit” implies lying, you are using the wrong words, you just think I am wrong.

    You have endlessly debated Bagwell, m,aybe every freakin’ time after YOU put up some instigating comment about it! You HAVE debated it, at length: you just have no evidence beyond your incorrect notion that nobody could have gained mass from an ordinary size at his rate, & what you heard from others.

    If I was like you I would say you are full of shit about what you were told, put up or shut up…But I respect that the info is private, never pressed you for it at all, yet you flipped about it. Whether accurate is unknowable.

    About batters swinging “up”. Chuck, much much later, acknowledged that batters swing down, then up, then down again. Any video or most any baseball man will acknowledge that after the start of a swing-normally “loading” back a bit, then of course the bat comes down from its position roughly tilted over the shoulder:

    It is normally at least a slight uppercut. Otherwise, any ball hit squarely could be hit nothing above chest high! Now it can be hit below or above the center of the bat, but not with much power.

    So a level swing can produce a low line drive-a grounder if hitting the lower part of the bat, or swinging down. But often what is called a line drive that has power (hits the meat of the bat) & travels far enough to go deep into the gap on a line, tends to be a slight uppercut. And anything hit at a decent angle, like deep pop ups & home runs, is certainly an uppercut.

    Meaning-the angle of the bat as it passes the body until contact is made, & at lest a bit beyond.

  409. Chuck Says:

    “Furthermore, “full of shit” implies lying…”

    Maybe on Planet Felber, but not here on earth. Here it means not knowing what you’re talking about, whereas there lying means intentionally ignoring the truth.

    “You have endlessly debated just have no evidence beyond your incorrect notion…”

    I TOLD you he used. If it’s not good enough, fine.

  410. Mike Felber Says:

    Well I grant you that “full of shit” can mean both not not knowing what you are talking about. But you must be aware that it is also used to mean lying. So let’s call that a draw.

    Very basic is that saying somebody used is not evidence. Me hearing it at least 3rd hand is not evidence. But that does not dispute my point-that you did argue, & at length. I have no problemo with you saying he did based on your own confidence about your sources-different from the whole rate & amount of muscle gain argument, which does not hold water in his case.

    Yet it would not be rational for me to conclude this from your sources, though I question neither your honesty nor intention.

    Get ready for the big storm east cosaters.

  411. Chuck Says:

    In no way does “full of shit” imply lying, so, no, let’s not call it a draw.

    I’m right, you’re not, so let’s move on, shall we?

    If you only have one source and that source tells you something you don’t initially agree with, you have no choice but to consider the information accurate until such time it’s PROVED inaccurate.

    Not finding evidence on a Google search that Bagwell didn’t use isn’t sufficient.

    You are more than welcome to believe I’m “full of shit” if you so choose, but, remember, my success rate here has been pretty good.

  412. Mike Felber Says:

    Oh that reminds me: lying does NOT imply “intentionally ignoring the truth”. It means communicating a something you know to be false: intending to deceive. Ignoring the truth is vague, it can mean deluding yourself. Find me any place where you can show me your definition, should be easy to do, right?

    You never heard “full of shit” used for lying? OK, you are sheltered. :-) Just ask others, here or in life, in a NEUTRAL way: can the phrase mean lying?

    You really believe that if anyone tells you anything that contradicts what you believe, regardless of how much or where you get the information-if it comes from any source, regardless of who, that you do not know the source, any details: you should accept it?!?!?!

    That is, of course insane.

    You would be Ego bound if you take this as a reflection upon you, my idea of you, or your honesty. I trust your honesty, but it is not rational to overturn all logic & (lack of in this case) evidence based on 3rd hand info where no details are shown. Someone could lie or have an agenda, be mistaken, things could get screwed up many ways along the way.

    You may have enough info about the sources to rationally believe it. But if I really was the most naive man on the planet, then I would agree with you that I should believe anything I heard 3rd hand.

    Though there are times when one may weight it strongly as evidence, it is bad logic to automatically believe it is accurate. Also unfair, since there is no analagous exculpating evidence, right? No way for someone to hear 3rd or 10th hand someone definitely did NOT use, since even when someone is absolutely negative, like you or I ever using ‘roids, you cannot prove a negative: we theoretically COULD be juicing when someone is not looking, could be torturing someone in the basement or serial killers.

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