2013 HOF Ballots

by Chuck

According to a tweet this morning by ESPN Baseball Analyst Buster Olney, voting  ballots will be mailed this week to the 570 or so accredited members of the BBWAA for the 2013 Hall of Fame election.

As has been discussed here and elsewhere for years now, the talent level on the next few ballots would make it seem any holdovers would stand little chance of election. Guys like Jack Morris, who received 66.7% of the vote last year in an admittedly down year, and Jeff Bagwell, who checked in at 56%, will either fall off the ballot entirely or will wait a few years longer than their supporters believed possible.

According to Baseball Reference,  the preliminary list contained forty-five players total, with thirteen carryovers from 2012. The list of repeat candidates ranges from former Yankee Bernie Williams, who is appearing on his second ballot, to two time National League MVP Dale Murphy, who is appearing on his fifteenth and final.

Among the candidates appearing on the ballot for the first time include Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling and Craig Biggio.

In the past, voters have shown a disdain for not only the admitted use of steriods and other performance enhancing drugs, but the rumored use.

The issue for me, if I had a vote, wouldn’t necessarily be the use, but when it actually started. Many people believe the stories surrounding Bonds; that he grew tired of the lesser talented guys like Sosa and McGwire getting recognition and money and started using following the 1998 season.

I’m not one of those people, however.

And therein lies the rub, do you have to take only what you hear, or should your own experiences and common sense allow you to think outside the box?

If steriods weren’t a factor, then Bonds, Clemens and Piazza should be no-brainers; from there the drop off to the next guys on the list is pretty significant, IMO.

I think Piazza’s the only guy getting in this year.

412 Responses to “2013 HOF Ballots”

  1. Len Says:

    This seems like the hardest HOF ballot to handicap I can remember in years.

    Personally I don’t get all the love for Jack Morris. It’s not like there was a lot people calling him a HOF type pitcher back in the 80’s. He was good but to me he was really lucky playing on some really good teams. There’s nothing about his numbers that really jump out at you like this guy is a HOF. He never finished below 5th in the ERA title for example and only finished in the top 10 (5) times. His best finish in Whip was a 4th place finish and only 5 times in the top 10. Only 2 finishes in the top 5 for K/9 a 2nd and a 4rth. And this was a guy with good fielders behind him when he played for Detroit. He never finished in the top 10 even once in BB/9. It would be interesting to see who was the last BBWAA pitcher selection to not finish at least one time in the top 10. I think the most telling stat is that he only finished in the top 10 (3) times in his career for K/BB.

    Morris was a workman, he finished in the top 10 in games started 11 times, Innings 9 times and complete games 10 times. All in all his W/L record is a bit of an illusion built on some great Tiger teams with some really good fielders up the middle. It also helped that he played on a WS Twins team and a really good Blue Jays team that gave him some great run support.

    I don’t think Morris will get the 75% he needs this year.

    I never got the Lee Smith love. He was the all time save leader for awhile? so what? I don’t see any difference between Smith and Quisenberry or Tekulve. Actually for a short peak I think Quisenberry was much better.

    I think Biggio has a really good shot because of the 3000 hits. I’m pretty sure that everybody with 3000 hits has been elected on the first ballot.

    I would normally say Piazza was a no-doubt but there’s been steroid allegations about him as well.

    I can’t see any of the older guys making a big jump this year.

    My guess would be just Biggio although it wouldn’t surprise me if Piazza made it as well. It also wouldn’t shock me if Morris made the jump. As far as the Veterans committee I could see a much deserved Bill Dahlen get elected.

  2. Chuck Says:

    There are more steriod allegations with Biggio than with Piazza, Len.

  3. Raul Says:

    There were more allegations of Piazza being gay than those that he juiced.
    Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he was on it though.

    Clemens thinks his trial will absolve him and put him in the Hall. Not gonna happen.

    Biggio would be an atrocious selection.

  4. Raul Says:

    If they are going to just ignore steroid use…they might as well give Lance Armstrong all his shit back, too.

  5. Raul Says:

    I would be shocked if Morris got in.

  6. Len Says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Biggio took steroids considering where and when he played (Houston 1990’s-2000’s). I only know of Jeff Pearlman’s allegations about Biggio.

    Piazza admitted that he took androstenedione before it was banned. Then there’s the Murray Chass and Joel Sherman stories of Piazza with all that back acne as a by product of steroid use. There’s a quote from Reggie Jefferson that Piazza took steroids and nobody talks about Piazza while Bonds and Clemens take all the heat. Then there’s the crazy story that Piazza was a 60th round pick favor and he ended up being the greatest hitting catcher in MLB history.

    Like I said it’s the hardest ballot to handicap in a long time. Maybe nobody gets in maybe just Morris.

  7. Raul Says:

    Thought Piazza was a 92nd rounder?
    But to be fair, what the hell is the difference between 60th and 90th round picks?

  8. Raul Says:

    Some have argued that if Bonds and Clemens never get in, baseball will have a hard time explaining how the all-time leaders in Hits, HR, and Cy Young Awards are conspicuously absent from the Hall of Fame.

    Fair question, I guess.

  9. Len Says:

    Pete Rose is also the all time leader in: Games Played, At Bats, Plate Appearances, Singles, and Times On Base.

    Bonds is also the all time leader in: Base On Balls, MVP awards and Silver Slugger Awards.

  10. Chuck Says:

    What Rose did is far worse than what any ‘roider did.

    Bonds is a cheating scumbag asshole, but he’s the Pope when compared to Rose.

  11. Raul Says:

    Bonds is probably still doping.
    He just traded anabolic steroids for EPO.

    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17u1vpx4jfe14jpg/xlarge.jpg

  12. Mike Felber Says:

    That jpeg is loading at a glacial pace. Then clicking again did not happen, then suddenly typing here it goes back to the image. never seen that before. At least if he is competing, I would bet he uses something.

    Nobody was nearly as fully investigated as Bonds, & there was a vengeful ex & others he treated poorly, yet still no evidence he used before the ‘98-’99 off season. And his size was fully consistent with what an average fitness fanatic could have achieved-reported at 206 lbs., 8 % body fat, previously listed at 6′ 1″, later 6′2″.

    But I would never let him in if he did not admit & apologize for the cheating & lying, though he was good enough clean.

    Rose’s sins were worse, & he only seems to care about whether he gets in the Hall, not true matters of conscience. I cannot be as impressed that he holds the records for longevity when he was a bad player, a new demerit over any replacement player, for his last 6 seasons, & wrote himself into the lineups.

    James regretted his end of century high ranking enthusiasm for Biggio. Who faded a good amount in his last 8 years. If clean, he seems to me a borderline pick. He contributed as a base runner, played important positions, all those HBP, few GIDP…

    Would anyone have guessed that he is #10 all time in AB-even covering the strike years? I would not have. Playing mostly 2B, some OF & catcher, almost no DH..That is pretty impressive.

  13. Len Says:

    @Mike,

    Yeah, I would have never guessed Biggio was 10th all time in plate appearances. It definitely helped him that he played his entire career with the Astros and they continued playing him as a full-time second basemen so he could get 3000 hits. They gave him 1800 plate appearances from 2005-2007 and he put up a .254/.306/.425.

  14. Raul Says:

    From 2000 to 2007, Biggio played 1,151 games, had 5,068 plate appearances, and hit .266/.338/.428 while playing below-average defense.

    Steroids…whatever…at one time, he was a very good player.
    But he falls short of Hall of Fame in my opinion.

    I suppose his candidacy hinges on 3,000 hits and that he is 15th all time in runs scored. Every player in the Top 30 in Runs Scored is in the Hall of Fame, with the exception of Barry Bonds, Pete Rose, Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter.

  15. Mike Felber Says:

    Could be steroids Raul, could be the same as a kazillion other players who faded after 33, some more dramatically. That is a magic # for many-Mantle, Foxx, fellow 2B Hornsby…You know I do not believe in giving HOF for milestones, & you could argue him either way. I am a bit more inclusive so I would put him in-assuming clean-but he looked better around 2000.

    Looking at the all time list now Len, Steady Eddie at #7, despite hitting 3 strike years, is impressive too. he might note come to mind as easy as the other giants around him.

  16. Raul Says:

    Mantle, Foxx and Hornsby each had careers that…up to age 34 were light years ahead of what Biggio could have accomplished if Biggio hung around to play for 30 years.

    Just to note it: Mantle, Foxx nor Hornsby reached 3,000 hits.

    Foxx rarely gets mentioned among best players of all time. He’s probably the 2nd-best 1B ever…after Gehrig. I suppose Pujols will surpass him at some point.

  17. Len Says:

    I think Hornsby never reached 3000 hits because he was a player/manager and basically stopped being a full time player at age 34.

    Mantle, Foxx, Ruth, Bonds, T. Williams, Ott, F. Robinson, Morgan, C. Jones, Gehringer and K. Griffey jr. didn’t do it because they walked so much. Dimaggio lost 3 years from the WW2.

    I think 3000 hits is kind of overrated anyway especially with the DH. And that whole thing of automatic admission with 3000 hits was kind of ridiculous. Harold Baines missed it by 134, O. Vizquel missed it by 123 for example.

    Yeah Jimmy Foxx is like the forgotten superstar. I think overall Ott and E. Mathews are the most overlooked superstars out of those top 25 all time players.

    I think the problem with Foxx is partly due that his main team (Philadelphia A’s) moved away and the Oakland A’s don’t pay much attention to the old Philadelphia players. His #3 for example is not retired by the A’s. I know Eric Chavez wore the number for years. Contrast that to say how the L.A. Dodgers honor the Brooklyn players.

    I think Foxx is also hurt that he played only about 1/2 his career with the A’s and then about 40% of his career with the Red Sox.

    He’s probably also hurt because he played at the same time as the greatest player at his position (Lou Gehrig).

    I think he died when he was about 60 so he wasn’t alive into his 70’s-80’s maintaining his legacy. I think what really hurt Mel Ott was that he died at 49 and his team moved away so everybody kind of forgot him.

  18. Bob Says:

    Not sure what was said in the prior thread, but deepest sympathies to Kevin McHale and his family on the passing of his daughter,

  19. John Says:

    Biggio’s pretty borderline as a player, but I think he will get in right away.

    3000 hits, 5th all-time in doubles, 15th in runs scored. Will get bonus points for doing it all with the same team though he shouldn’t.

    I think there’s a good chance he and Bags get elected together, as will Piazza.

    Bonds and Clemens won’t get in right away, but it’s not like they’ll get the Mark McGwire treatment either.

    I wouldn’t vote for Sosa if he were clean, not sure about the voters…but I think he’ll go the way of McGwire and Palmeiro.

    And then there’s Schilling. He’s got at least a 5-year wait, probably longer.

  20. Chuck Says:

    6/100 extension for Evan Longoria.

  21. Chuck Says:

    Biggio will get in, but it may not be this year.

    There’s just too many qualified players on this ballot, steriods or not.

    If what John said is true about some steriod guys not getting the McGwire treatment, then there may not be enough votes for Biggio to get 75%.

    Remember, Robin Yount only got 77.2% because he was on the same ballot as Nolan Ryan and George Brett.

    Bagwell’s not getting in this year or in the immediate future. The last two ballots were shitty and he only got up to 56%..what would make anyone think on a solid ballot his totals would go up?

  22. John Says:

    “The last two ballots were shitty and he only got up to 56%..what would make anyone think on a solid ballot his totals would go up?”

    Because there aren’t 10 names better than Bagwell on the ballot.

    Therefore, if someone thought Bagwell was a HOFer before, they’ll think he’s a HOFer now.

    He’s not getting less than 56%, and his percentage is only going up.

    Maybe 19% in one year would be a bit substantial. I think it’d be cool to see the Killer B’s inducted together.

  23. Raul Says:

    The Rays are spending some of that revenue sharing money, huh?

  24. John Says:

    Evan Longoria is a freaking stud, no question about it.

    Interesting that, coming off an injury plagued year, the Rays signed him for his age-31 through 36 seasons.

  25. Lefty33 Says:

    @19- Very good post John.

    The only thing I quasi-disagree with is Bonds.

    I think he’s got a very, very, very, very long road ahead of him as he has really tarnished his image, reputation, and achievments in very permanent ways.

    The BBWAA guys are all mostly writers first and foremost.

    The one thing that writers love is a good story (that explains a lot about why the MVP voting in the AL went the way it did this year) and Bond’s story is one that is not very good and I would expect a whole lot of bias, exclusion and shit to be thrown in his direction for quite some time.

  26. Lefty33 Says:

    “He’s not getting less than 56%, and his percentage is only going up.”

    Depending on how long he stays on the ballot that’s not even close to true.

    All of the recent longterm inductions have had at least one year if not two years where they lost support from the year prior.

    Guys like Blyleven, Rice, and Dawson all lost some support at least once and Rice in one of his years lost over 10%.

    If Bagwell is still around for the ‘15 vote, and I think he will be, when Smoltz, Pedro, and Johnson are all 1st timers he’ll lose support no question.

    It makes no sense because like you said, if BBWAA member X votes for him one year you would think that he’ll vote for him every year but that’s not what always happens.

  27. John Says:

    The difference is that none of those guys were considered particularly strong (though Blyleven should’ve been).

    The only thing Bagwell lacks is the possibility of PED use. The way I see it, it’s just a waiting game – each passing year with no hard evidence will bring new voters.

    So, the question is simply whether or not information will surface before his election.

  28. Chuck Says:

    “Cubs Hire Rob Deer as assistant Hitting Coach”

    Why do teams need assistant hitting/pitching coaches now?

    Does one guy coach lefties and the other righties?

    And what do they do if there’s a disagreement, walk around the batting cages/bullpens marking territories?

  29. Chuck Says:

    “The way I see it, it’s just a waiting game – each passing year with no hard evidence will bring new voters.”

    It is a way to see it. The wrong way, but a way nonetheless.

    The writers know Bagwell used, the fact he’s not in yet and is still years away should be enough for you.

    They’re just sitting back holding off on voting because they won’t waste a vote on a user.

    You opinion, or Mike’s, on whether he used or not isn’t relevant.

  30. Len Says:

    @John,

    Do you really think that Bagwell can make that jump from 56-75% ? I can’t see that happening. I think there is still too many steroid allegations surrounding him. If it wasn’t for the steroid allegations he would have been a 1rst or no worst than 2nd ballot guy.

    There’s also no guarantee that Bagwell’s % will not go down. It’s not likely but HOF voting is rather bizarre and kind of schizophrenic. In one of the strangest voting patterns, Gil Hodges hit 60% in 1981 and then went down to 49% in 1982 and then back up to 63% in his final year. I’ve never understood how 11% of the writers thought he was a HOF in 1981 but not a HOF in 1982.

    Lee Smith actually had more votes in his first time on the ballot than eventually HOF relief pitcher Goose Gossage then on his fourth try.

    Non HOFs Steve Garvey, Tommy John, Jim Katt, Jack Morris, Dave Parker and Don Mattingly had more votes than eventual HOF Bert Blyleven in 2000.

    Luis Apparicio had 27% on his first try in 1979 behind Hodges, Maris, and Wills. Actually for his first 3 years on the ballot the writers felt that Wills was the more deserving SS. Then in 1982 Wills dropped from 40% to 21% and Apparicio went up to 40%. Then Apparicio went up to 67% in 1983 and he finally was elected in 1984 with 84%. Did something suddenly change from 1981 to 1984 that Apparicio went up that drastically?

    This would actually be a good year for Larry Walker who I don’t think was ever linked to steroids. Actually Alan Trammel would be a very good selection in that he’s not linked to steroids and he should have been elected back around 2004.

  31. Raul Says:

    The Cubs hired Rob Deer?

    Doesn’t Alfonso Soriano already know how to strike out?

  32. Chuck Says:

    Walker’s performance spike is more than can what one could assume reasonable by just playing in Coors Field.

    There’s also the links to teammates who have had the same spikes who have been linked, so it’s not unreasonable to speculate Walker used.

  33. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes Len, it is hard to have any good idea what will happen with borderline candidates or those with even rumors around them (Bagwell). We do not know that the writers “know” anything there, but they certainly do not want to be burned by electing a user.

    You forgot T. Williams 4 1/2 years in the military when considering reasons why guys did not have 3K hits. Though of course it is only one way to create value, & a Ruth/Bonds/Williams with great HR rates & walks creates great value. BA helps, but it is mostly OBP, & then Slugging.

    Of course those giants were much better than Biggio Raul-I was referring to how much they declined (meaning relative to their normal production after age 33. These guys lost more of their value after 33 than C.B.

  34. Chuck Says:

    Biggio was pretty useless after 33.

    He was essentially a utility player who played full time.

  35. Mike Felber Says:

    It is reasonable to speculate he might have used, not that it is likely.

    He had a 151 OPS + the year before he came to CO., & then did not have a great year until his 3rd year there, at 30. When Frank Robinson dominated after that famous trade after being dismissed as “an old 30″. Walker’s last year that can be considered good enough quality & enough games to be all star level was at 35.

    He did not dramatically expand his size, nor did he suddenly hit better than ever starting in his late (or even mid) 30’s. Even considering Coors field, his overall production is clearly worthy of the HOF.

  36. Chuck Says:

    Before this turns into another 200 comment pissing contest, Larry Walker is not HOF worthy even if clean.

    Move along.

  37. John Says:

    Bagwell jumped from 42 to 56% in one year.

    You think 44% of writers are 100% sure he used?

    The writers don’t know jack. They may have heard rumors, but if hard proof never surfaces? He’ll nab that extra 19% easy enough.

  38. John Says:

    “Before this turns into another 200 comment pissing contest, Larry Walker is not HOF worthy even if clean.”

    Actually, I agree. .278/.370/.495 on the road is a terrific line, but it wouldn’t be good enough from a corner outfielder in the era he played, for just 8000 PA.

    Then again, Jim Rice was .277/.330/.459 on the road…but he was feared.

  39. Raul Says:

    I get the whole race thing behind being “feared” and being “gritty”.

    But Reggie Jackson played the same era as Jim Rice. And Reggie was the guy people should have really feared.
    I’m just saying …if anyone deserved that feared moniker…it was the straw that stirred the drink.

  40. John Says:

    I think Jackson was probably more feared. He was walked almost twice as much.

  41. Len Says:

    @John,

    They must know something or suspect something about Bagwell because he was a dominant 1b and one of the ten best in MLB history. He should have been a 1rst ballot HOF or no worse than a 2nd. The good news for Bagwell is that when a player hits 50% he’s basically a virtual lock to be elected to the HOF by either the BBWAA or the Veterans committee. Pre 2010, Hodges was the only guy to get to 50% and never be elected to the HOF. Hodges was a very odd case in that he got to 60% and even got to 63% and was never elected.

    45% of the vote in usually a certainty for the HOF. pre 2006, Other than Hodges, Tony Oliva is the only other player to reach 45% and not get elected. Even 40% is pretty much a certainty. Pre 2003, there have only been a small handful of players to reach 40% and not eventually get elected (Garvey, Maris, Oliva, Hodges, Wills, and Marion).

    Maury Wills is an odd case because he was making steady progress (40% on third try) and then his real life behavior in the early 80’s cast a bad light on his candidacy and he fell down sharply to 20%.

    Maris was an odd player to reach 40%. I guess the writers gave the HR record a lot of credit because I can’t see him as a good candidate.

    Garvey was an overrated player and I think the writers started to look more critically at his numbers.

    Lee Smith is an odd one in that he’s reached 50% but I wonder if the writers look at him differently now that he’s third on the all time saves list. Tim Raines fans should be interested if he reaches 50% this year. It’s going to be interesting to see if Alan Trammell or Edgar Martinez reach 40% this year.

    Larry Walker is most definitely a good HOF candidate. 7 time gold glove winner, .313/.400/.565, .965 ops (16th all time), .565 slugging percentage (13th all time). 3 time batting champion. No link to steroids. The only question with Walker is how much Coors Field played into those numbers.

  42. Chuck Says:

    “The writers don’t know jack.”

    What a stupid comment.

    They know way more than you do..and that’s all you need to know.

  43. Lefty33 Says:

    “It’s going to be interesting to see if Alan Trammell or Edgar Martinez reach 40% this year.”

    It’s not going to be interesting at all because the BBWAA is never going to induct a one dimensional player like Martinez and the boat on Trammell sailed a loooooooong time ago as he is now on his 12th ballot and just got over 30% for the first time on probably one of the weakest ballots ever.

    Neither has a chance.

  44. John Says:

    Realistically, Lefty’s right about Trammell, which I think is kind of a shame.

    Martinez has a while left on the ballot. Frankly, I just don’t think he did enough.

  45. Len Says:

    Yeah, Trammell is an oversight by the BBWAA and a clear case of not putting the numbers and the position and the era he played into proper perspective. He was generally seen as a future HOF in the late 80’s early 90’s. He got screwed by the steroid era when it became common to see middle infielders put up gaudy offensive numbers and suddenly his numbers didn’t seem as great. He was also hurt by playing in the same league during the same time period as Robin Yount and Cal Ripken.

    It’s interesting that when Trammell retired in 1996, he was 4th all time in HR by a short stop with 185 and 10th all time in hits.

    From 1947-1996 his .767 ops was the 6th best among short stops.

    And he was a very good fielding SS as well. He won 4 GG. He won 3 silver sluggers and was an all star 6 times and the MVP of the 1984 world series. And he got completely robbed of the 1987 MVP.

    Yeah, Trammell’s best chance will probably have to wait until he gets on some kind of 1970’s-1980’s veterans committee in 10 years.

    Martinez is an interesting case, he’s only on his third ballot. I would think his chances are a bit long at this point but who knows what will happen in 5 years.

  46. Chuck Says:

    RIP Marvin Miller.

  47. Raul Says:

    Miller should be in the HOF.
    A man who did so much to change the game.

    The VC will never allow it, and it’s unfortunate.

  48. Bob Says:

    Maybe they honor him posthumously like Santo. They should.

  49. Raul Says:

    I’m torn on the idea of electing a guy posthumously.
    It’s one thing if people believe a guy was worthy after looking at his career/contributions with a different perspective.
    It’s another thing if they elect him posthumously as a form of spite…so that he couldn’t enjoy it while he was alive.

    Ownership hated Miller with a passion. I think that was the reason he never got in.

  50. Bob Says:

    Red Barber said Miller is one of the 3 most important men in the history of baseball.
    1. Ruth
    2. Jackie Robinson
    3. If it is good enough for Barber…

  51. Raul Says:

    Hard to argue with that.
    Though I’m sure many would argue that Branch Rickey mattered more than Jackie.

    It is said that several GM’s considered integrating baseball but no one had the courage to do it.
    Rickey is as much to credit for integration and statistical analysis as any other single person.

  52. Bob Says:

    Fair enough. But Robinson had to endure the taunting, until Pee Wee Reese spoke.

  53. Raul Says:

    True

  54. Mike Felber Says:

    Of course Miller should be in, Trammel too. Best DH ever, even dinging him for not playing the field I think he does enough, I support Martinez. Though given his PA per year, I can see the argument against him.

    Some underrate Robinson as a player. Of course if any human being is entitled to credit for “lost years” it is Robinson. He was good from the start, ROY under extremely trying conditions, imagine what he would have done if not breaking in at 28.

    Some will trumpet him due to being politically correct, but any attention to the details of what I write will show that is not me. His 7 year peak was significantly better than the average HOF 2B, & even when averaging it with his unavoidably truncated career, he comes out barely abouve the average HOF 2B.

    A 132 OPS +, significantly OBP & BA heavy, quite good fielding, mostly at important 2B & 3B positions, base stealing man (in a stationary era) is very valuable.

    JAWS Second Base (10th), 58.7 career WAR/49.8 7yr-peak WAR/54.3 JAWS
    Average HOF 2B (out of 19) = 66.0 career WAR/42.8 7yr-peak WAR/54.4 JAWS

  55. Chuck Says:

    Robinson wasn’t the best player Negro League player, either.

    Talent was pretty far down the list of reasons why he was chosen.

    I’m on the fence with Miller.

    First, he really didn’t “do” anything.

    Second, not everything that resulted from his involvement was positive.

    Bart Giammatti accomplished more in 34 days than Bud Selig has in 25 years, yet who’s getting into the HOF?

  56. Mike Felber Says:

    I cannot see how Miller did not have a dramatic impact for the good, fighting for years for the players & something that finally gavce basic rights & some economic justice for the players.

    Robinson was not the best player in the Negro Leagues. Which shows you how good the best players were. One of a bunch of indicators-if Mays & Aaron came along a few years to a generation earlier, then we would be wondering how good THEY really were in their primes.

    I do not know just how much they weighted his career, but even without any credit for his lost years-& I do not know any who would not grant him this-his career + peak value is worthy of the HOF. He did everything the traditionalists + the saber rattlers like well.Ironically SF/SH too.

    Here is an interesting question. you can scroll back for long discussions & earlier applicants re: who is most worthy.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.php/final-vote-players-deserving-movies

  57. Chuck Says:

    Players deserving of movies?

    What a stupid article.

    Who gives a shit?

    Fangraphs, figures, consider the source.

  58. Lefty33 Says:

    “It’s another thing if they elect him posthumously as a form of spite…so that he couldn’t enjoy it while he was alive.

    Ownership hated Miller with a passion. I think that was the reason he never got in.”

    Agree 100% Raul.

    That same spite is what will keep Rose out until after he’s dead too.

    Although I can’t exactly disagree in his case.

  59. Mike Felber Says:

    Right Chuck, why appreciate baseball history by talking about great stories & having fun?

    Only you & the Grinch would not like this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14

  60. Chuck Says:

    Carlos Ruiz suspended 25 games for amphetamine use.

    The reason he didn’t get 50?

    Amphetamine’s aren’t PED’s.

  61. Len Says:

    Part of the reason Miller never got into the HOF came from the changing of the Veterans Committee around 2001.

    All the talk of Miller not being in the HOF because the owners didn’t want him there is not really true. The players could have voted him in but didn’t.

    The players actually could have voted him in several times but didn’t. Actually they didn’t vote anybody in partly because there were too many voters and to many candidates to ever get to a 75% consensus.

    The structure of the re-vamped Veterans Committee was the real problem in Miller not getting elected.

  62. Chuck Says:

    Miller was never on the ballot.

    There have been different versions of the Veteran’s Committee over the years, but the actual process hasn’t changed.

    It’s a sub-committee of a mixture of 12-16 HOF players, writers and executives.

    To get 75% of 16, you’d only need 12 to get in.

    I would be curious to see how long he was eligible though.

  63. Bob Says:

    The Mets will non-teder Mike Pelfrey.

  64. Raul Says:

    Pelfrey had potential to be special around 2006. By now we should know that he’s average at best.

  65. Raul Says:

    These rumors of Lester going to KC are ridiculous.
    I think Lester could do well in a big field in the National League. But he isn’t an Ace and shouldn’t command a team’s #1 prospect.

    I could see him in Arizona. I don’t know what AZ would send in return.

  66. Chuck Says:

    Dbacks need a lot of things.

    Lefty starters aren’t one of them.

    Pass.

  67. Raul Says:

    I don’t see all the hype with Justin Upton, btw.

    This guy has two impressive seasons interspersed with 4 mediocre ones.
    He hasn’t really showed any understanding of plate discipline. His walks are about the same every year. His strikeouts are about the same every year.

    I think he’s a nice player. A quality guy. But will he ever warrant a 100 million dollar contract? I don’t see it.
    He’s like a notch above Torii Hunter. That’s no slight. But even with his young age, don’t go expecting that much.

  68. John Says:

    “But will he ever warrant a 100 million dollar contract? I don’t see it.
    He’s like a notch above Torii Hunter.”

    Not that I don’t agree with you, but Torii Hunter landed a 90 million dollar contract. So a notch above would be…

  69. Len Says:

    @Chuck,

    Miller most definitely was on the ballot and process has changed quite drastically over the years.

    When they re-vamped the Veteran’s Committee in 2001 they changed the voting of the veteran’s committee to include the living HOF members and a collection of Frick and Spink winners.

    There were roughly 85 eligible voters to vote on a a group of 26 players and 15 executives, managers, umpires. Roughly 60 members were from the former players who where in the HOF and the other 25 came from Spink and Frick winners. 81 voters voted in 2003 82 voters voted in 2007, I’m not sure what the break down was between players/writers/broadcasters.

    There were 3 votes, 2003, 2005, 2007. Executives/Managers/Umpires were only in the 2003 & 2007 vote

    Miller received 35 votes in 2003 and 51 votes in 2007. 61 votes were needed to get into the HOF.

    That group did not vote a single person into the HOF in 2003, 2005 or 2007 so they revamped the veterans committee again.

    In 2008 the Executive portion of the Veteran’s committee was formed with only 12 members and only 2 former HOF players: Monte Irvin and Harmon Killebrew. Miller only received 3 votes. Miller himself said that this committee was specifically formed to keep him out by the members they chose to use for the voting. Kuhn, Dreyfuss, and O’Malley were elected in a panel that tended to favor ownership.

    In 2010 the Executive portion of the Veteran’s committee was formed again with 12 members and only 2 former HOF players: Tom Seaver, Robin Roberts. Miller received 7 votes but needed 9 votes. Again this panel was tilted heavily towards the owners.

    In 2011 the Executive portion was expanded to 16 members with 8 former players (Bench, Herzog, Murray, Palmer, Perez F. Robinson, Sanberg, O. Smith). I’m not quite sure why Herzog was included in a HOF “players” group. Miller missed it by 1 vote as he received only 11 votes. Pat Gillick was elected.

    So you could say that the owners/executives wouldn’t vote for Miller in 2008, 2010 and 2011 but the players could have definitely voted him in 2003 & 2007.

  70. Raul Says:

    Well played, John.

  71. Len Says:

    I think teams like Justin Upton’s age in that he’s only 25. I kind of agree with Raul’s point in that so far he’s been a good player but nothing really special.

    He’s going to make $14 million in 14 & 15, I could definitely see some team giving him a 6 year 90 million contract starting in 2016.

  72. Raul Says:

    The Upton brothers are pretty overrated.
    Same for the Young brothers (Delmon & Dmitri), though I suppose Dmitri proved he could hit.

  73. Bob Says:

    The Reds signed Broxton while th3e Angels landed Ryan Madson.

  74. Chuck Says:

    I’d rather have Justin than BJ, although right now neither are worth what they are/will be paid.

    The Reds are effin’ stupid if they move Chapman to the rotation.

    Miller was never on the BBWAA ballot, Len.

  75. Raul Says:

    So they’re actually going to try and have Aroldis Chapman start games…three years after they signed him.

    Should work out great. He’s appeared in 185 games total and started 16 of them. No durability concerns whatsoever.

    Well, it’s been like 5 years since the Royals considered putting Soria in the rotation. Maybe they can throw him in there for a month, too.

    …idiots.

  76. Chuck Says:

    It’s official

    http://bbwaa.com/

  77. Raul Says:

    Obviously I’m voting Jeff Conine and Julio Franco.

    Franco because he was 106 years old.
    Conine because …wait no. I was thinking he was BJ Surhoff.

  78. Lefty33 Says:

    Phillies in the process of finalizing a trade with the Astros for Wilton Lopez.

    The Astros will get minor league talent, that Jim Salisbury of Comcast is saying, will be major league ready.

    Interesting way to not have to spend tons of $$$ on a set up man as long as the prospects given up are not excessive.

    A+ to Ruben on this one.

  79. Chuck Says:

    How can you tell when your favorite team, who used to be good, is slowly starting to descend?

    When you get excited about picking up a LOOGY in a trade for a dozen bats and a gallon of Billy Bob’s BBQ sauce.

    BTW..Royals traded Clint Robinson to the Pirates.

  80. Raul Says:

    Pirates got themselves a hitter. But I don’t know where he will play.

  81. Len Says:

    Julio Franco must be the last eligible player born before the 1960’s to appear on a MLB HOF. I’m pretty certain that every eligible player born before 1960 has been on at least one HOF ballot.

  82. Chuck Says:

    I really want to know what the screening process is, I mean, how does Woody Williams get by? And Aaron Sele for that matter.

  83. Raul Says:

    Handjobs go a long way, apparently.

  84. Chuck Says:

    Everyone who played ten years should be on the ballot.

    If someone wants to vote for Todd Walker, so be it.

    Otherwise..what’s the criteria for cutting someone?

    I mean, having 12 fingers should be worth a couple of votes for Antonio Alfonseca, right?

  85. Bob Says:

    At least two.

  86. John Says:

    I think it’s cool.

    No one in their right mind thinks Jeff Cirillo is a Hall of Famer, obviously.

    But for the rest of his life, he can say that he was a candidate for the Hall of Fame, on a ballot and everything.

    A nice middle ground for all-stars who weren’t all-time greats.

  87. Bob Says:

    And for people like Kirk Gibson, who was never an all-star.

  88. Bob Says:

    The Toronto Maple Leafs are worth $1 billion, according to Forbes Magazine. First hockey team to reach that level.

  89. Bob Says:

    Pettitte signed a 1-year deal and Jet tickets are going for less than $ 20 bucks online.

  90. Chuck Says:

    I’d pay more to see the Jets than Andy Pettitte.

  91. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, & that begs the question of who we could elect to a Hall of Infamy. Worst players to play in at least parts of 10 years.

  92. Raul Says:

    Early leaders are Juan Uribe, Joey Cora and (in two years) Yuniesky Betancourt

  93. Lefty33 Says:

    Pending a physical, Upton is going to Atlanta for 5/75.

    Dumb.

  94. Chuck Says:

    If Upton’s worth 15, Hamilton’s got to be worth 50, right?

  95. Raul Says:

    Every year there is a really really fucking dumb contract given that shoots up the average price for other Major Leaguers.

  96. Raul Says:

    Pettitte got 12 million from the Yankees.
    The Angels signed Ryan Madsen to a 1 year deal.

  97. Raul Says:

    The Mets are rumored to have offered David Wright 140 million dollars.
    Normally I would call that insane, but we just saw BJ Upton’s deal.

  98. Bob Says:

    Wright is older than Upton and this contract is rumored to be for 7 years. More insane than Upton’s in my view. I guess Bill Maher gave the Wilpons a sizable chunk of change. Is that correct, Mike?

  99. Raul Says:

    Age isn’t always the most important thing.
    You have to be really friggin good to get that kind of money.
    At least, you ought to be.

  100. Chuck Says:

    So, Curt Schilling thinks being on the ballot with steriod guys helps his chances since there will be extra votes to go around and “I never touched the stuff…”

  101. Raul Says:

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  102. Raul Says:

    Sure he didn’t.

  103. Bob Says:

    Chuck, someone in Arizona co-won the Powerball Lottery. Here’s hoping it’s you.

  104. Chuck Says:

    It was not, I don’t buy lottery tickets.

  105. John Says:

    You win a dollar every time…

  106. Bob Says:

    Win or save? Plus the Powerball is 2 bucks.

  107. Mike Felber Says:

    I did not know that Bob, gotta ask my brother about it & see if he has any inside info! I am not aware of his sports interests. He is fanatical about hid food/its sources & has various-very particular-inclinations.

    There may be no other non-insane, Beantown-hating human being who is convinced Schilling juiced Raul.

  108. Bob Says:

    Mike, he is a sports fan who hates the DH and recently became a minority owner of the Mets.

  109. Bob Says:

    The Nationals acquired Denard Span for Alex Meyer. The Nats wanted a centerfielder. Who wins this deal in 5 years?

  110. John Says:

    So, the plan is for Harper to move to LF, Morse to move to 1B? Sounds good to me. That’s a stacked outfield on the glove-side.

    No point in trying to bring back LaRoche. That was a career year for him, let the Mariners overpay for him or something.

    I don’t actually know anything about Meyer, except that he’s tall.

  111. Bob Says:

    The Sox drafted him out of high school, chose Kentucky instead. 3 years later a 1st rounder whose stuff was similar to Cole, those perhaps a tad worse. Worst case sceniario has him a quality to shutdown closer. Upside could be a 1-2 starter.

  112. Chuck Says:

    Finally a trade which helps both teams.

    Not a big deal obviously, but a beneficial one.

    I don’t like tall pitchers as a rule (other than Johnson and Richard name a successful pitcher over 6′5″), but the Twins suck, so if anyone can find use for him I guess it’s them.

    Yeah, if I’m LaRoche I’m kinda ticked off right about now.

    But, you know what, he’ll get his money.

    Tampa…Baltimore..Texas…he’d fit pretty well.

    Boston, too.

    Although I don’t think he’d go back there if he wants to win.

  113. Lefty33 Says:

    “other than Johnson and Richard name a successful pitcher over 6′5″

    Drysdale was 6′6″

    Halladay is 6′6″

    Sabathia is 6′7″

    Guetterman was 6′8″

  114. Lefty33 Says:

    To show you how bad the Braves overpaid, Comcast is reporting that as we all knew the Braves and Phillies were the two finalists for Upton.

    We know the Braves paid 5/75 and they are saying that the Phillies best offer was…….5/55.

  115. Chuck Says:

    Guetterman..haha..good one Lefty..testing to see if I’d read the whole post? :)

  116. Mike Felber Says:

    We discussed this before. The mechanics of a long body can take a while to master, like with Johnson. But over 6′5″ is not just tall, it is very tall indeed. Given that there are so many less men at this height, & many go into basketball, I wonder if those this tall fail at a greater RATE than, say, an “average” guy ~ 6′ 3″. I would be curious if a guy 6′6″-6′7″ had a lower shot like I bet a guy 5′ 11″ does. Despite the occasional Martinez or Wagner who at most are this height.

  117. Lefty33 Says:

    “testing to see if I’d read the whole post?”

    Maybe :)

  118. Lefty33 Says:

    The Wilton Lopez deal is apparently now off.

    Nothing official is being reported but rumors suggest:

    1. Lopez failed his physical yesterday due to lingering issues about his elbow.

    2. The Astros wanted Tommy Joseph and not Sebastian Valle as the main piece in return along with one of the Phils major league ready pen pieces like Phillipe Aumont.

    3. Another team stepped in at the last minute to offer Houston more.

    Philly sports talk is going bonkers that it’s after Thanksgiving and Amaro still has yet to make a move other then signing AAAA filler Humberto Quintero and bringing back AAAA filler Pete Orr.

    They lost out on Lopez, lost out on Span, and lost out on Upton.

    It’s at least taken some time away from the 24/7 barrage on fire Andy Reid now calls.

  119. Bob Says:

    The Pirates outbid the Yankees for Martin, while Wright and the Mets will be together for the next 8 seasons.

  120. Bob Says:

    The Royals and Chris Getz agreed to a 1-year deal thus avoiding arbitration.

  121. Raul Says:

    So on MLB Hot Stove just now, BBWAA President Susan Slusser said the only player likely to be inducted this time is Mike Piazza.

    She also said that the argument that X-Player was a HOFer before steroids is a terrible argument. That by that line of thinking, Derek Jeter could start taking steroids because to this point, he’s had a HOF career.

    She has a point.

  122. Chuck Says:

    #118,

    1) Confirmed.

    2) Not sure I buy that..I mean, I like Joseph but he won’t ever hit enough to play regularly..Valle could be the second coming of Carlos Ruiz.

    3) Didn’t hear that, but don’t necessarily believe it. If Lopez failed a physical over his elbow, the price goes down, not up.

    4) I hate trade rumors, etc, and as soon as I finish typing this I’m taking a shower..but…Phillies apparent low-ball to Upton and seeming disinterest in the market in general says they’re saving up for the guy they really want…Josh Hamilton.

  123. Chuck Says:

    #121

    Damn straight she does.

    That’s why in the case of steriods in the HOF..you’re guilty until proven innocent.

    Sosa categorically denied he ever juiced, but when someone suggested he hold a press conference to prove his innocence, all of a sudden he forgot how to speak English.

  124. Chuck Says:

    I’d cancel my spring training package if the Royals ever released Chris Getz.

    Fuck Alex Gordon and Wil Myers….Getz is the MAN….

  125. Bob Says:

    Damn straight he is the man.

  126. Raul Says:

    I really thought the Mets would have extended David Wright for under 100 million.

    Even if they would have given him a higher average salary, I didn’t think they’d go more than 4 years.

  127. Chuck Says:

    Braves trade Tommy Hanson to Angels.

  128. Chuck Says:

    Tonight is the non-tender deadline..should see some trade activity today.

    Mark Reynolds comes to mind.

  129. Bob Says:

    @ 126. I agree.

  130. Raul Says:

    What?!?!

    Hanson got traded?? Wow. They must have seen something they really didn’t like in him.

    I know he had a bad year but I’m shocked at that one.

  131. Bob Says:

    1.So the Nats made a move
    2..The Angels added Hanson.
    3. The Tigers added Hunter.
    4. Are the Giants still the cream of the crop?

  132. Bob Says:

    Kris Medlen gave the Braves depth.

  133. Chuck Says:

    Even up for Jordan Walden.

    A starter for a reliever?

    The Braves must know something about Hanson’s shoulder they don’t like for the future.

  134. Raul Says:

    That Randall Delgado kid better work out.

  135. Bob Says:

    The Tigers non-tendered Daniel Schlereth.

  136. Chuck Says:

    Now Mets’ fans on Twitter are suggesting they trade Jonathan Niese to KC for Alex Gordon.

    You couldn’t get Dee Gordon for Jonathan Niese.

  137. Raul Says:

    Lol
    Mets fans are delusional.

  138. Chuck Says:

    LOL..

    On Twitter.

    Braves fan to another Braves fan.

    “So, other than not having a LF, what is our biggest weakness now?”

    “The Manager”

    Haha

  139. Raul Says:

    Lol

    Well, overnight Brian McCann went from best hitting catcher in the National League to a scrub

    They have two life-size pieces of tin foil at SS in Pastornicky & Janish.
    And Dan Uggla is a million dollar paper weight.

    They just gave BJ Upton a nice early retirement gift.

    I’m not sure what’s going on in Atlanta.

  140. Chuck Says:

    Jon Paul Morosi from Fox is saying the only holdup on Justin Upton going to Atlanta is the Braves’ unwillingness to trade SS Andrelton Simmons.

    From what he’s saying on Twitter, the Braves are softening their stance now that they’ve signed Bossman Junior.

    All that aside, can you picture Jason Heyward playing left field?

    I can’t.

  141. Mike Felber Says:

    Well she has a point, but the way to remedy this is to add the stricture to good enough absent PEDs that one must acknowledge & sincerely apologize for their crimes. Which should mean be open to sanctions.

    Chuck you are a bit to the right of Attila the Hun here. Can’t have guilty until proven innocent-though if there is reason for doubt, you could argue to wait until outstanding questions are answered-but you cannot just let rumors never evaluated or without evidence keep one out for many years.

    Sosa forgot how to speak English in front of Congress too, right? He also cheated with a corked bat. He also gained more weight & muscle than even Bonds did-started as a 165 speedster, was 200 for the ‘98 season, then kept gaining after, up to an uncut 238 @ 6′.

    Even I do not reserve judgement on Say it Aint Sosa! TRhere is more than smoke there.

  142. Chuck Says:

    “Can’t have guilty until proven innocent..”

    Of course I can..it’s my vote.

  143. Raul Says:

    I forgot who said it, but someone said something to the effect of “these users traded the HOF for money, in my opinion. That’s why I won’t vote for them for the HOF”.

    A lot of these users got paid from their use. Some got paid and received a lot of glory.

    My question is: is he wrong? Is that not a trade off for the HOF?

  144. Mike Felber Says:

    Anyone can be their own “decider”, actual vote or not. I meant can’t as in it is not right to make someone prove a negative. Never fully possible, all that is fair is to address decent reasons for doubt. The classical ethical conundrum involves the propriety of assuming the negative premise: “when did you stop beating your wife”? A logical fallacy.

    Raul, you men that they sacrificed the Hall for fame & fortune? Some did, though I doubt nearly all assumed they would be caught. Folks do not like to think about that. And they also effectively stole money & glory & sometimes just roster spots from others.

  145. Raul Says:

    2/$17 million is bullshit for Russell Martin. He isn’t that good.
    And not even close to worth to that for the Pirates.

  146. Bob Says:

    What would you have given him? 2 years is relatively paltry, so how much of the $17 million would you have taken back? 2/$13?

  147. Raul Says:

    Martin has a big name.
    Offensively he’s finished. He’s a good defender. Great. So is Jose Molina. And I don’t know anyone who’d pay Molina 8.5M per year.

    13M for two years is probably a nice courtesy just because he’s a veteran.

  148. Bob Says:

    I think the Pirates have had issues in the catching department the past couple of years. Michael McKenry is their back-up, and I think they reached with Tony Sanchez in the first round a couple of drafts ago.
    Two bad second halfes in a row, they probably felt pressure to make a move.

  149. Raul Says:

    Just in case anyone wants to make a contrast between the Martin contract and the Jason Kendall contract with KC a few years ago….Kendall only signed for 6 million over 2 years. So…not the same thing.

  150. Bob Says:

    1. At least the Pirates are willing to spend their revenue-sharing money.

  151. Chuck Says:

    Martin turned down a slightly larger contract (3 yrs) for a bit less AAV ($7 mil) from, I believe, the Rangers.

    Martin’s not that old, if he goes to Pittsburgh and starts hitting again, he could turn it into a bigger deal.

    Not a bad move.

  152. Bob Says:

    A Kansas City Chief player killed himself. His name has not been released.

  153. Bob Says:

    He killed his girlfriend as well.

  154. Bob Says:

    Jovan Belcher

  155. Chuck Says:

    “Never fully possible..”

    You are so naive Mike.

    Let’s say you’re Jeff Bagwell.

    You’ve been surrounded by innuendo and suspicion on steriod use going back to the mid-point of your career, probably 20 years or so.

    The suspicions have grown over the past few years, especially the past two when HOF vote totals are less than expected.

    Wouldn’t it behoove you to call a press conference or issue a detailed statement denying use? Even if you DID use, wouldn’t the fact you’ve made the attempt to clear the air put you in a better public light, like Andy Pettitte?

    And here’s another thing about these rumors and we’ve seen this to be true in some cases in the past..most of them are not unfounded.

    Just like with Lance Armstrong.

    The fact players don’t come out and immediately issue denials, especially when they have as much to lose as the Bagwells/Bonds’ of the world, is, to me, an admission of guilt.

  156. Raul Says:

    Sad stuff about Jovan Belcher.

    Bagwell juiced. There’s no doubt about it. None. The man was Lou Ferrigno in an Astros uniform.

    Harold Reynolds is convinced Justin Upton will be traded during the Winter Meetings this week.
    I wonder if anyone else will change teams.

  157. Chuck Says:

    That Morosi guy from Fox says the Cubs and Phillies are talking Alfonso Soriano.

    Hope Lefty doesn’t read that while he’s driving.

  158. Chuck Says:

    Some Yankee fan on Twitter who lives in Cleveland is saying the talk shows there have Carlos Santana traded to NY for Hughes, Robertson, and a minor league OF named Jose Figueroa.

    What a load. My goodness.

    As the radio host, how could you even respond to that (unless your the jerkoff who made it up in the first place).

  159. Raul Says:

    Lol

    Isn’t Carlos like 24 years old & cheap? What possible reason could Cleveland have for trading him?
    And I’m sure if a Yankees reliever gets moved, Joba is at the top of the list.

  160. Raul Says:

    Sorry, Carlos is 26 and will be 27 in April.
    Still, good young player.

  161. Mike Felber Says:

    There is a lot of good arguments in what you say Chuck.

    1st the quibbles, starting with Raul. Baggy never approached the mass of even the original, much smaller than when he came back ~ ‘91, Ferrigno. I have never heard his 215 lbs. even argued. Tyson was under 6′ & (when lighter at his peak) slightly heavier & clearly pretty low body fat. Nobdy thinks Tyson or tons of athletes his size had to use. Holyfield did though, HgH & steroids, with ~ the same upper body & relatively small legs. Fought at most at Tyson’s weight, though 3″ taller, both were 217 in one fight.

    Also my point remains that you cannot prove a negative. And you morphed from saying some to most cases, within a few words. I do not know that either of us know if it is “most” times rumors are true-it could well be-but let us say for the sake of argument this is true. That still can leave tons of players indicted by vicious &/or ignorant rumors, sometimes based upon working out hard & effectively & good genetics.

    So short of extreme bulk, you CANNOT just go by being muscular.

  162. Mike Felber Says:

    Now to give you credit for very reasonable points Chuck.

    Not issuing strong & immediate denials, while not an admission of guilt, are good reasons to be skeptical of someone’s innocence. Though I recall Bagweel strongly objecting to specific accusations.

    Though if there are merely rumors, can you not see how clean guys might despair of being able to prove the negative, & some may think that addressing the rumors gives them more attention, & thus for some, credence?

    OK, you can argue that when it has effected your HOF tallies, then you should hold a press conference. And a big reason they may not could be GUILT.

    Yet I do not know how they are advised by attorneys. Big Mac clammed up due to guilt. Though sometimes innocent folks do not even testify in court because they, or more likely their attorney, know they will not come out well under questioning.

    Yet your questioning it is valid. If I (& virtually the whole world) would find it highly unlikely that the most aggressively outspoken anti-PED players, who comment not just when called before the cameras or Congress on it, but on their own-are innocent, then you can wonder about those who avoid responding to allegations that damn them.

    While I maintain that we do not have public evidence that Bagwell used, I have no reason to say it is highly unlikely, like I WOULD say for The Big Hurt & Curt Schilling.

  163. Raul Says:

    Mike Tyson was a heavyweight boxer. It’s not unusual to see a lean, muscular boxer.

    So that has nothing to do with Jeff Bagwell literally going from Tino Martinez physique to having forearms the size of Craig Counsell’s fucking head.

  164. Chuck Says:

    “I have never heard his 215 lbs. even argued”

    Not sure if that was still a Bagwell reference or you had moved onto Tyson.

    Bagwell was at one point pushing 230, and “extreme bulk” is exactly what you look for in a guy who plays a non-bulk sport.

    The difference being a HOFer would make to any player’s life can’t be measured, and if I was one of those players and my candidacy was being tarnished by untrue speculation, you bet your ass I’m having a presser to set the record straight.

    I would have done it a year before I was on the ballot the first time.

  165. Raul Says:

    Jeff Bagwell 1992

    http://pitchersandpoets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/jeff-bagwell-1992-212×300.png

  166. Raul Says:

    Jeff Bagwell 1994

    http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/419/928/238340_display_image.jpg?1285835248

  167. Raul Says:

    Jeff Bagwell undated photo. Probably 1995-ish based on photo quality.

    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WT7c0mP5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

  168. Mike Felber Says:

    I am saying that Bagwell became pretty heavily muscled, but not like a HW bodybuilder, or even a large HW boxer. There forearms were likely very similar. Holyfield’s smaller, with fairly small legs, though he used. You cannot go just by size.

    How fast he gained? The 1st picture is much more distant, his arms look much bigger in particular, cannot say if his body increased proportionately. So many folks who gain over several years do use PEDs. And some do not.

    Yes, 215 was about Bagwell. Was he pushing 230? I had not heard that, & if so, like Sosa at 238, he likely was no longer lean. Dusty Baker persuaded him to go back ~ 220.

    We do know some benefit from the bulk, in Canseco innovated showing it was not necessarily a “non-bulk sport”. Where it hurts or at least produces diminishing returns is hard to say. But I too would be setting the record straight if innocent, & myself if possible.

    So undoubtedly some do not because they are just guilty. But as discussed, some will stay quiet for other reasons.

  169. Chuck Says:

    RIP Rick Majerus

  170. Raul Says:

    What the fuck are you talking about? Canseco bulked himself out of the league.
    Have you even seen Canseco in ‘88? He was wiry as shit back then.

    By the mid 90s he couldn’t even extend his arms.

  171. Chuck Says:

    Mike, don’t act like it’s impossible for Bagwell to not have used.

    Boxers use their muscles differently than baseball players, thus work out differently.

    They next strength and bulk in their upper bodies, so they lift. They need stamina too, so their lower body work outs are more enduranced based, long distance running, skipping rope, etc.

    For any boxer including Holyfield, to be disproportionately muscular is normal.

    A 5′11′ 180 pound baseball player at 21 can’t naturally weigh 50 pounds more in ten years.

    Not possible.

    The fact you’d think we’re too stupid to not know that, or would argue using a totally different set of circumstances doesn’t discredit us..it discredits you.

    Until documented proof surfaces on him, or Schilling, or anyone else, then all we’re doing is speculating, which means jack.

    But you’d have to be seriously ignorant of life in general and athletics in particular to not be virtually 100% certain in your own mind that they all used.

    I can’t fathom someone arguing they didn’t, it’s blatantly obvious.

  172. Raul Says:

    It’s not even that, Chuck.

    Even the people who are reserving judgment on Bagwell, none of them would say it’s more likely that he gained all that muscle naturally than it is that he gained it by juicing.

    Consider the ridiculousness of it:

    Jeff Bagwell, a lightly regarded prospect with gap power gets traded, gains at least 35lbs of muscle and goes on to bash home runs in probably the most difficult HR hitter’s park in the National League

    Or….

    He took advantage of a rampant steroid culture in the game, with easy access to steroids as he was in the pre-eminent hotbed of steroids users at the time (Houston & Arlington), his best friend on the team was a known juicer (Ken Caminti), and ends up suffering injuries never-before-seen in baseball…ESPECIALLY by a 1st baseman (torn bicep). Oh, and then proceeds to lose 40 pounds in the 2.5 years after his retirement.

    The first scenario is more likely….riiiight.
    How much is that bridge you got for sale, chief? I know someone who is interested.

  173. Chuck Says:

    Right?

    It’s not even about Bagwell himself, it’s the circumstances.

    It would be like living at the Playboy mansion for ten years and expecting everyone to believe you’d be celibate.

    Even Liberace would have been humpin’

  174. Raul Says:

    Buster Olney continues to amaze me with his stupidity:

    “I haven’t formally sat down and voted this year, but, on my ballot, I probably will fill all 10 spots on my ballot and vote for Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Jack Morris, Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro. To me, those are the best candidates, based on their career production. No Murphy, no Alan Trammell, no Schilling. Not because they’re not worthy but because there isn’t room on my ballot.”

  175. Raul Says:

    Lol I think those numbers are understated, but ok.

    http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/1738371

  176. Chuck Says:

    If I’m Carlos Ruiz, I’m suing.

    Drugs are either illegal for everyone or legal for everyone.

    Allowing players to hide behind a prescription pad is dumb.

  177. Lefty33 Says:

    “Hope Lefty doesn’t read that while he’s driving.”

    I’ve given up following the offseason OF rumors for the team as they have been associated with everyone on the market and the guy that I think they should get, Angel Pagan, is probably the guy farthest off their radar.

  178. Raul Says:

    Pagan’s a bit overrated, don’t you think?

    Nice player. Can play the field. I guess he’s worth a 3/18M deal, but he’d have to keep hitting.
    He probably could do well in Philly’s ballpark, but he doesn’t get on base a whole lot, so they better hope he keeps hitting .290.

    At 31, Pagan probably wants a 5 year deal. You’d have to be desperate to offer him that – no matter what the dollars.

  179. Lefty33 Says:

    “At 31, Pagan probably wants a 5 year deal. You’d have to be desperate to offer him that – no matter what the dollars.”

    Good question.

    I just read that Rosenthal and Comcast are both reporting that the Phillies offered him a contract and Comcast is saying something around 4/35-40.

    At that price it’s not great, but it would be OK.

    He gets on base more than Jimmy Poppins, he plays solid defense, steals bases, does not K a lot and gets a good amount of extra base hits.

    That’s the type of guy they need not another all-or-nothing extreme K guy like Upton might have been or like Soriano would be.

    In a perfect world it would be Swisher but his AAV is going to be too high and that would still leave them w/o a viable CF.

  180. Raul Says:

    I guess I’m a bit too conservative with the value I place on these guys.
    I think everyone is worth 6 million a year. LOL

    4/35…I could see it. It IS Philadelphia. They aren’t exactly on a Marlins budget.

    Also worth noting that Roy Halladay will be 36 in May — and just came off a season of injury. He posted an ERA over 4.00 for the first time since 2004. The Phillies have to win soon.

  181. Lefty33 Says:

    “I think everyone is worth 6 million a year. LOL”

    You would make a great owner. :)

    “Also worth noting that Roy Halladay will be 36 in May — and just came off a season of injury. He posted an ERA over 4.00 for the first time since 2004. The Phillies have to win soon.”

    Yeah they’ve got some issues.

    You’ve got you’re #1, and #4 SP coming off of injuries along with the ever flammable Kyle Kendrick as you’re #5. The pen has a bunch of low cost/unproven kids in it, there is no realistic 3B or CF and you’ll start the season using some kind of AAAA catcher until for the first month.

    But aside of that…….they’re great!

  182. Mike Felber Says:

    Look Guys, you make some good points. But you also assume some premises in your arguments that are false, & make some dubious conclusions. Please attend to my arguments, agree or not, with teh care I do here again.

    1st the general: Chuck, I have said that while you know much about baseball, this does not prove you are right many experts at baseball or anything disagree about much of what they say. And can get predictions more wrong than those wholly unversed on a subject. So we must look at the DETAILS of what & why they argue. Precision is everything.

    That being said, I do know a lot more than you two about lifting & weight training. Been doing it for years, read a good deal on it, talk to many lifters, from gym rats to competitors. Members of the oldest continuously operating gym in the nation for years too.

    So at least weigh with caution any analysis of my arguments. I also have linked a bunch of web sites as evidence, & have not had those addressed or disputed.

    Now Chuck, this statement must be an error, you must have meant to not have the word “not” in there”.

    “Mike, don’t act like it’s impossible for Bagwell to not have used”.

    But I do NOT act like it is impossible for him to have used. I have said many times, & yet again recently, he may well have used-like many might-but the evidence is not there. If you get what I argue wrong, your own case’s credibility, & ability to focus, is legitimately in question Sir.

    Only Schilling did I argue was very unlikely to have used. Due to his almost unique aggressive public stance & complaints, not just when called to the carpet like many others.

    Now as for your lesson re: boxers & ballplayers, I know that, but it is appreciated. With the caveat that classically many of both have been advised NOT to lift, (body weight exercises instead) but it changed for both starting in the ’80’s.

    Next. I am a little disturbed by your implication that I am LYING “Think that we are two stupid to know that” implies just this, deception. Which is it, I am so naive or a manipulative liar> They are not mutually consistent, & the rational thing to believe is that I believe what I say, agree or not.

    Impossible to gain 50 lbs. in 10 years starting from 21? No way, but even you do not mean that: it depends on how much is muscle. And I have not been shown he was a lean 230. YOU many times used THIRTY lbs. as how much he gained. You are likely unaware, but you hjave CHANGED your figures. Check the archives.

    Now then, since we do not know exactly his body composition, let me put it in perspective for you. Virtually NO authoritative source will tell you that what I am again spoon feeding you is wrong!

    This page is on the web site of someone with scholarly & experiential expertise. Please do not even debate what is possible if you are unwilling to read what the consensus is! This page sums up his, & a bunch of other models, for potential muscle gain: per year, over a lifetime, & accounting for where one started at:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html

    A summary of salient facts: the expected lifetime potential of a someone with decent genetics for gaining ONLY skeletal muscle, not fat, water, or sacroplasmic weight, is 30-40 lbs. over what an AVERAGE man will hold. Moe or less depending on your frame.

    So you will see elsewhere 40-50 lbs. of muscle gained over a career. Why the discrepancy? This is essentially starting at a fairly skinny kid level.

    So nobody was arguing that Bagwell was bulky before he gained. He was athletic, but not very different in mass from an average man. So I would say that at maximum he MIGHT add up to 3035 lbs. of pure muscle (97% of potential can be gained within 5 years, 88% within 3).

    So then. It really depends upon just what he ended up weighing, & how much of his max. weight was other than muscle, to tell IF he exceeded what is plausible. He STILL could have cheated to get there-anyone could-but absent other evidence, gaining 30-35 lbs. of muscle even within 5 years, starting from a lean 175-180 at 5′ 11″, is within what is possible (but about the limit).

    If he gained more in just muscle without a big frame: yes, he almost certainly juiced. He COULD have juiced. But we have nowhere established he gained 40 lbs. or more of skeletal muscle. Reg Park had ~ 40 lbs. of muscle over an AVERAGE man of his size, which will be the upper limit for someone his size over a lifetime.

    These facts are just NOT in dispute amongst lifters, from the gym to those with Doctorates in strength training.

  183. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, these statements of yours are logically untenable. Mutually exclusive:

    Until documented proof surfaces on him, or Schilling, or anyone else, then all we’re doing is speculating, which means jack.

    But you’d have to be seriously ignorant of life in general and athletics in particular to not be virtually 100% certain in your own mind that they all used.

    I can’t fathom someone arguing they didn’t, it’s blatantly obvious.

    Your 1st line is essentially CORRECT. We are speculating about these guys. The difference is I am saying that it is unknown but possible, you & Raul are reaching conclusions based upon body mass factors where you do not have the potential gains & facts straight.

    But you cannot rationally say we are speculating & it means JACK, then in the next breath insist all must be virtually 100% certain that all used!!

    That makes just no sense whatsoever. It is completely & utterly impossible to reconcile logically with your 1st statement. Which can only be taken to endorse restraint in judgement because we cannot know.

  184. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul, I WOULD say that the juicing argument is more likely. Not all would say so, & it is not the overwhelmingly likely thing, but more likely, yes. Which still makes being innocent fairly likely.

    Though to correct a couple of premises that exaggerate how likely: 35 lbs. of muscle is about at the edge of what would be possible from someone starting off fairly lean. (Though we do not know exactly what he gained).

    And a torn bicep is not at all unknown amongst clean guys who lift heavy. I recall Mike Schmidt (reading SI as a kid) tearing a pectoral muscle swinging: this was an unusual injury, & he was only listed at 6′ 2″ & 195!

    When you introduce rigorous exercise into the baseball culture, even if everyone is clean (which is absurd of course)-you will get many more o9f these kinds of muscle tears & tendon injuries.

    My point has NEVER been that Bagwell must be clean. It is that there is no good evidence presented he is dirty. And that some are clean, even those who go from lean to pretty heavily muscled. Especially being athletes with along off-season & the best training & nutrition money can buy, this will happen.

    Also a small % of folks are just naturally horses. You add systematized weight training, they become outliers. I have read about & personally know guys where most of the males are very muscular without extraordinary measures.

    There will always be a few Serena Williams types. And from my math & years of observations, take THIS to the bank:

    A guy 6′2″ tall with an average build & a not at all overweight, yet not quite lean 15% body fat, will have the POTENTIAL to reach about 220-225 unclothed & not bulked with food. A definitely LEAN 10% body fat, 210. Possible within 5 years of heavy & effective training & eating. Most do not make such good & direct progress.

    A quite SMALL % will reach ~ 30 lbs. MORE than these weights, at the same heights! Because of dinosaur bones weighing more, those bones permitting more muscle to be attached, & hormonal factors.

    But you MUST realize that there is overlap: some cheaters do not do even as much as potential gains that a natural man can obtain. It goes both ways.

    Whether Bagwell used or not, there is no way you will discover that my arguments are not overwhelmingly excepted by strength professionals & weekend warriors in the know.

  185. Chuck Says:

    You can’t make this up.

    Well, one guy did, but still..

    http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/keeping-score-also-for-your-hall-of-fame-consideration-scott-boras/?ref=sports

  186. Chuck Says:

    “Phillies have kicked the tires on Chone Figgins”

  187. Raul Says:

    Holy shit. I came back to read the Magna Carta.
    Also, lol @ Figgins.
    Bigger LOL @ Boras for HOF. How did the Times let that garbage get published?

  188. Raul Says:

    Sigh.

    Why is this hard for you to understand, Mike?
    Whatever a bodybuilder, boxer, hockey player, football player, cyclist, highschool band bass player, etc…can gain in muscle DOES NOT MATTER.
    It is completely irrelevant to Jeff Bagwell. Because baseball isn’t like ANY of those sports.

    Get this through your head.
    The sport of baseball does not lend itself to the likelihood of a player gaining that kind of muscle. The season is so long, with so little recovery time between games that you cannot do it. There are just too many other things to work on to even have the time to lift like Ronnie Coleman to gain all that muscle, maintain it, and work on ALL THE OTHER THINGS RELATED TO BASEBALL.

    MAYBE…MAYBE…could be done by a bodybuilder over years of nonstop training.
    CANNOT be done by a baseball player.

    Let me explain, because it’s not like I can expect you to know how things work.

    Spring Training is in February. You’re working on fundamentals. Then you have a 6 month season with something like 15 days off.
    Then, some have another 2-3 weeks of postseason. Then it’s November and you relax for about a month or so. Then you start working out and lifting a bit until January. Tops…you’re looking at 6-8 weeks of hard lifting a year…with light weight training during the season.

    A baseball player isn’t gaining that kind of muscle.
    Does not happen.
    I don’t care what other sports you mention. They don’t matter.

  189. Chuck Says:

    “I do know a lot more than you two about lifting & weight training..”

    We’re not talking about lifting and weight training, we’re talking steriod use and how it affects the body.

    Which you have demonstrated to be clueless about.

    So, please, stay on topic.

    No one wants to argue with you.

    And it shouldn’t take 2000 words to respond when you do.

  190. Raul Says:

    On MLB Network they asked “Would you give 100M?” to Bryce Harper, Mike Trout and Stephen Strasburg.

    For each, the answer floated from No to Maybe.

  191. Mike Felber Says:

    I WAS on topic Chuck. What I wrote & the link is authoritative evidence on what a natural lifter can gain. Those limits & the nuances involved show when it is rational to conclude someone is clean or reserve judgment without specific evidence. If you want more on ‘roids & how they effect the body, I can provide that too.

    You & Raul have been arguing with me. SO that is a false statement, nobody holds a gun to your head. Also you are WELCOME for the care I took: I did not need to, but to establish my case & educate on hat assumptions are fair, all those words were very useful & relevant.

    Raul, you are just way off on what players can accomplish with lifting. I know that about what players GENERALLY do. And no player has ever approached a Ronnie Coleman level, if you grasped the difference in degree you would not raise his name. He was under 6′ & up to 300 lbs. very CUT! No player was ever within 50 lbs. of that at such low body fat, at ANY height.

    Not in the proverbial ballpark. But guys CAN & do spend months in the off season bulking up. Your protocol does not apply to all. Then at LEAST folks can maintain during the season. While with great training, nutrition, & at least when you have not approached your potential-many can gain.

    Because the 1st couple of years you gain much easier than later, when you reach a point of diminishing returns.

    You can gain with 3, as few as 2, workouts of under an hour a week. Guys still have time for TV, sex, movies, drinking…Of course there is time. Recovery can be trickier, but with rest & training you can do this: though again, you may not want to do more than maintain over a season, since it is tougher, & to work out hard enough to be sore regularly is likely to be disadvantageous to baseball.

    Anyway, the main thing is check the record: many players, clean AND dirty, have used most of the off season to bulk up when motivated to.

  192. Mike Felber Says:

    100 M to Trout, absolutely. Harper, only with significant performance incentives, but I would prefer to build that into any contract. SS is so much more likely to be injured, not without a so incentive laden contract-where 1/2 of his salary would depend upon hitting performance & IP benchmarks, that he would not accept it. because others would give him big money without them.

  193. Lefty33 Says:

    “Phillies have kicked the tires on Chone Figgins”

    You know Chuck, it’s not April 1st.

  194. Mike Felber Says:

    To be 100% clear: we absolutely were talking about weight training & what one can gain naturally, & also how PEDs effect that potential. I addressed exactly what was presented, including by Raul.

    Also the losing of 40 lbs. within 2.5 years of retiring is not uncommon-though after his injury is when he lost some of that-as John has said before. A guy that bulks up for sports does not need this afterwards, usually does not want to put in the work & effort to maintain it. Now when Giambi lost all that weight & pretty quickly when he was still playing, + said it was “only 4 lbs.”, that was a big alarm bell.

    If I was really as naive as you claim, I would have reserved judgement on him, & on Bog Mac, whose silence before Congress I found damning. Also Sosa due to the reasons I have mentioned.

    But it takes more than “a good chance” someone could have used, given the cultural context & getting bulky, to fairly conclude that someone must have used.

  195. Chuck Says:

    Mike,

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I somehow feel like I owe you an apology here.

    You don’t know anything about athletics/sports. And, no, your three days a week at Happy Jack’s Karaoke and Barbell don’t count.

    You never played any sport, you don’t know anyone who played any sport, therefore you aren’t qualified to offer an opinion on any sport.

    This has already gone too far, and I will start deleting comments if it goes any further, but I realize now all you’re doing is trying to fit in any way you can.

    And I absolutely respect that.

    Truce?

  196. Chuck Says:

    “You know Chuck, it’s not April 1st.”

    Not my comment..took it off the Fox Sports Twitter feed.

  197. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck, I cannot tell if you are playing mind games or really are confused about your own motivations.

    You said you somehow owe me an apology? But provided no reason why. The only thing (current) that would apply is your censorious & possibly passive-aggressive comments that follow.

    1) I know plenty about many sports. Both facts & understand the essence of many. Statistics as well, but maybe you label all who have a different/M view as ignorant.

    2) Yes, I played various sports, why on earth would you assume otherwise?

    Besides low level stuff like little league, played sports in street & schoolyard throughout childhood, tennis, football, basketball in the driveway, more..I was on cross country, & did Track & Field for a couple of years.

    3) I know tons of folks who play many sports, & have WRITTEN here about meeting minor leaguers, .boxers An Olympic Discus thrower, Rodman…Just in my gym. Not the only place I know atrhletes from.

    4) Why would you put down my gym-which I told you was the oldest continuously operating one in the country(!)-& has been home to many serious lifters-that way? http://www.midcitygym.com/home/index.html.

    5) Going too far?!?! I have politely & earnestly expressed my opinions, & cited logical arguments & scholarly sources. Why on EARTH would you even consider deleting my comments? This site is fairly dead, & this dialogue is the essence of healthy, relevant & responsive.

    6) I totally believe YOU believe that I am “just trying to fit in”, & that your response in part is coming from compassion. I appreciate the impulse, but your presumption that I write out of neediness, a dweeb who needs to “fit in, could not be further from reality.

    7) Truce? I was not WARRING with you, just stating my opinions. Though I do not feel you are owning your own hostility: there is just no way you could get from what i write that I never played any sports, know no athletes…Especially since I have repeatedly said otherwise.

    So I am not fighting with you, it is mystifying to logic that you would label a peaceful exchange as “going on long enough”.

    You do not agree with my totally on topic discussion with you & Raul about lifting, PEDs, & Bagwell. So? I have nothing else to say about the matter now, but no cause to mind or obstruct this expression.

    I could just re-post my saved messages, but it would be sad, oppressive & small to try to erase fully appropriate comments, in on topic exchanges, that irritate you.

  198. Raul Says:

    Ozzie Smith is apparently broke…I assume:

    “The Hall of Fame shortstop sold his 13 consecutive Gold Glove Awards from 1980-92 for $519,203, SCP Auctions said Sunday. His 2011 St. Louis Cardinals’ World Series ring sold for $51,364 and his 2006 ring went for $42,448. Both were gifts from the team.”

  199. Raul Says:

    In 2012,

    23 different players struck out 150 times or more.
    Some of these guys have no business even striking out 100 times:

    Danny Espinosa – 189
    Rickie Weeks – 169
    BJ Upton – 169
    Dan Uggla – 168
    Drew Stubbs – 166
    Kelly Johnson – 159
    Michael Bourn – 155

    In total, 111 players struck out at least 100 times last season. Ryan Howard struck out 99 times in 260 ABs…which is staggering.

    In 1992, 34 players struck out at least 100 times, with Dean Palmer leading the way at 154. That total would have placed him 17th this year.

  200. Raul Says:

    Night and Day 2012 — the bad kind:

    Pitchers
    James McDonald. 2.37 ERA pre-allstar break. 7.52 ERA post-allstar break.

    Hitters
    Many would think Andrew McCutchen, but this honor goes to David Wright. .351/.441/.563 pre-allstar break. And .259/.334/.416 post-allstar break.

  201. Chuck Says:

    It’s not possible to have the background you claim to have and be as wrong as often as you are.

    My brother is like that, he’ll argue for a half hour over what shade of blue the sky is.

    For him, it’s not so much being right or wrong, but being heard.

    Why else would you write a 1000 word comment when 50 would be enough?

  202. Chuck Says:

    “try to erase fully appropriate comments”

    Nope.

  203. Lefty33 Says:

    “In total, 111 players struck out at least 100 times last season. Ryan Howard struck out 99 times in 260 ABs…which is staggering.”

    If Howard would have played the entire season at that pace he would have made Mark Reynolds look like Tony Gwynn.

  204. Bob Says:

    The Rays will sign James Loney.

  205. Bob Says:

    I am not a fan of Notre Dame, but I think Manti Te’o should get the Heisman.

  206. Chuck Says:

    I don’t know enough about college football to even know who the Heisman candidates are, much less offer an opinion.

  207. Bob Says:

    I just want a linebacker to win. Plus Notre Dame is undefeated.

  208. Chuck Says:

    I’d like to see a punter or holder win.

    Because, you know, the Heisman is the biggest joke award in sports.

  209. Bob Says:

    I disagree. I view it as a nice honor. Different strokes…

  210. Len Says:

    @200 Raul,

    Yeah, I remember looking at Wright’s splits a few weeks ago and being shocked that his splits were so drastic. Either he or McCutchen were the MVP favorites at the all star break. And it’s not like he had an injury or anything bad happen to him. What’s interesting with Wright is that his Hr/100 ab rate stayed basically the same but everything else dropped off drastically. This has to make the Mets hierarchy a little nervous going into that $130 million dollar contract.

    McDonald was a serious Cy Young candidate around the break and then he just fell apart. He also went from a 3.23 K/BB rate in the first half to a 1.34 in the second half. He went from having a .57 HR/9 rate in the first half to a 2.06 hr/9 rate in the second half. And his walk rate more than doubled in the second half: 2.53 bb/9 in the first and 5.60 bb/9 in the second.

  211. Chuck Says:

    Nice honor yes, but it’s been a long time since the best college player won it. Now it goes to the QB or RB with the best TV stats.

  212. Raul Says:

    Wow.
    The Red Sox gave Mike Napoli three years and 39 million.

  213. Lefty33 Says:

    Napoli to the Red Sox 3/39.

    A-Rod is having left hip surgery again and won’t be back until around June.

  214. Lefty33 Says:

    Damn you Raul!

  215. Chuck Says:

    “A-Rod is having left hip surgery again and won’t be back until around June.”

    I actually see that as a good thing.

    Get a good 3b, ARod’s the full time DH when he gets back. Accelerate the inevitable.

  216. Raul Says:

    I expect the Yankees to be 9 games out of 1st by the time Arod joins the team.

    Between Fat Jeter, .245-hitting Teixeira, 200-strikeout Granderson, and Brett Gardner being a full time player, how does this team not finish in 4th place in 2013?

  217. Bob Says:

    Does Granderson have vision problems?

  218. Raul Says:

    What vision problems?
    He sucks. Every player comes to NY and they either try to take advantage of the short porch in RF or they are taught to try and pull the ball to RF.

    It’s disgusting.
    If you’re a great hitter, you hit the motherfucking ball where it’s motherfucking pitched. You make good contact, you will get base hits. This idea of tailoring your swing to a specific ball park is bullshit and it ruins hitters.

  219. Bob Says:

    I just Googled Curtis Granderson vision. There are stories.

  220. Raul Says:

    Well then pick one.

    A) Granderson was too fucking stupid to take 2 hours out of his day to go to Lens Crafters and get glasses
    B) The Yankees, in their infinite wisdom, kept playing a guy who couldn’t see a baseball if it was 3 inches from his face.

    On second thought, both of those options seem very possible.

  221. Bob Says:

    LOL @c 220.

  222. Chuck Says:

    Veteran’s Committee elects former Yankees’ owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O’Day, and catcher Deacon Jones.

  223. Raul Says:

    The VC is pathetic.

  224. Chuck Says:

    I agree..to an extent.

    The VC has been in existence in some form or another for 65 years. These three players have been considered for, wht, 60?

    I had a problem with Ron Santo..being on the VC ballot longer than the BBWAA..there has to be a cutoff to what timeframe a guy can be considered.

  225. Bob Says:

    15 years cut and dry. No VC

  226. Chuck Says:

    Not only do I agree with that Bob, I’d cut the BBWAA from 15 to 10.

  227. Chuck Says:

    Comment in an online chat’

    “Jon Morosi from Fox is saying the Yankees should do whatever it takes to get Chase Headley from San Diego, offering Phil Hughes”.

    Reply.

    “I’m not familiar with the term “Morosi”, is that the Korean word for idiot?”

    LOL

  228. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck you just do not understand basic human motivations sometimes. And I have explained them.

    1) You say I am often wrong-but provide no evidence. But you dismiss whole realms of knowledge/thinking like SM as having no validity, an extreme & untenable position. You are wedded to them.

    2) What about my background would say I could not hold those positions? Nothing, logically.

    3) So you either re-evaluiate the sense of your argument, or assume I am lying. When you have no cause to believe I am lying about my background, & my name & story is an open book. You could write by bro on fb & confirm all!

    4) Someone could write long notes for many reasons, & I have given you good ones. I have no idea whether you have similarly smeared/misinterpreted your very own brother. But I just like to debate, & also open to other ideas.

    5) In no way could I have established my point sin 50 words. To reject misguided notions about weight training, provide the explanations, references, & personal experiences you questioned, I needed to give much more. And not a single point re: what someone can gain naturally, how fast, etc…Has been countered.

    6) Your “nope” is unclear. My comments were fully relevant, politem responsive to others, & appropriate.

  229. Bob Says:

    1. Angel Pagan re-signed with the Giants.
    2. 10 years is fine with me.

  230. Chuck Says:

    Fair enough, Mike.

    Have anything baseball related you’d like to discuss?

  231. Bob Says:

    The Rangers will sign Joakim Soria.

  232. Chuck Says:

    Wow, not only did Angel Pagan get four years, but apparently there were more teams in the chase than the Giants.

    I mean, Angel Pagan’s a nice player, but damn.

  233. Chuck Says:

    Yankees claim Eli Whiteside off waivers from the Giants.

    Yankees DFA Eli Whiteside the next day.

    Yankees re-sign Eli Whiteside.

    Yankees release Eli Whiteside.

    Russell Martin signs with Pittsburgh.

    Eli Whiteside claimed off waivers by Blue Jays.

    All this in less than a week.

  234. Raul Says:

    Lol. And Soto is with the Rangers.

    Looks like NY will have to beg for Pierzynski’s services.

  235. Bob Says:

    Perhaps they trade Hughes for Salty. Hughes seems to be their trade bait du Hot Stove season jout.

  236. Chuck Says:

    “Dodgers looking for significant return for Dee Gordon”

    So, by significant, do they mean a baker’s dozen of batting practice balls instead of a dozen?

  237. Chuck Says:

    While Hughes would be a significant overpay for Salty, that’s exactly what the Yankees will have to do if they want to get an established catcher.

  238. Bob Says:

    Possibly. I love when I get a baker’s dozen when purchasing night crawlers.

  239. Raul Says:

    Isn’t Salty with Boston?

  240. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes Chuck. The PED & training comments were baseball related, as was my response recently about who I would give 100M to, & under what kind of conditions. Everything recently was.

    The Yankees seem a dying empire. They are going to needa few years & a different approach to be excellent.

  241. Bob Says:

    @ 239. Yes. But with the recent additions of Napoli and David Ross, rumors about him being trade bait are somewhat rampant.

  242. Bob Says:

    Scott Kazmir is throwing north of 90 mph in Puerto Rico.

  243. John Says:

    I read that the Red Sox plan to use Napoli mainly as a 1B than a catcher. If they trade Napoli, I suppose that might change.

  244. Raul Says:

    Andy Pettitte was getting people out throwing 88.
    If Kazmir had a brain, he could do the same.

  245. Bob Says:

    Cannot trade Napoli until mid-June per union rules. But yes, I believe he will be a 1bman most of the time. Still leaves
    1. Salty
    2. Ross
    3. Lavarnway

  246. Bob Says:

    Dan Haren went to the Nationals.

  247. Bob Says:

    The Diamondbacks signed Eric Hinske.

  248. Chuck Says:

    “Dbacks/Phillies discussing Justin Upton for Cliff Lee”

    Source?

    Pedro Gomez.

    ROFLMAO

  249. Chuck Says:

    “I read that the Red Sox plan to use Napoli mainly as a 1B than a catcher. If they trade Napoli, I suppose that might change.”

    “Cannot trade Napoli until mid-June per union rules.”

    John meant Salty, Bob.

    You don’t give 40 million to a guy for three months.

  250. Bob Says:

    Fair enough.

  251. Lefty33 Says:

    That would not be the worst move in the world if it happened.

    It all would depend on the periphery pieces like how much $$$ the Phillies would be kicking in or how many prospects in lieu of cash would Amaro need to overpay.

    The OF market right now is sooooo overpriced where as the Phillies could move Lee and replace him with someone like Anibal Sanchez for peanuts compared to Lee until May and Biddle are ready.

    (After his great year last year, the new rumor is Victorino to Boston for 3/39.)

    Yick

  252. Bob Says:

    They indeed did sign Victorino.

  253. John Says:

    Yeah, my bad, meant Salty.

    Lots of negative chitter-chatter about Victorino. Maybe a *little* too much money, but for a guy that’s generally pretty solid, it doesn’t strike me as horrendous deal. I mean, it’s 3 years. For a rich team. It could go south, of course, but rich teams can afford 40 million dollar sunk costs.

  254. Raul Says:

    “I mean, it’s 3 years. For a rich team. It could go south, of course, but rich teams can afford 40 million dollar sunk costs.”

    Suddenly, I am reminded of Carl Pavano.

  255. Lefty33 Says:

    “Lots of negative chitter-chatter about Victorino. Maybe a *little* too much money”

    A little too much money?

    Like the entire OF class so far this offseason, it’s a massive overpay.

    He made nine and a half last year and turned in a turd season for Philly and LA.

    So of course the natural answer is for Boston to give a speed guy entering his 32 year old season and coming off of his worst year a 30% raise when they’ll likely be changing his position to RF to boot.

    It’s a brutally stupid move and I can’t wait to see how that deal looks in it’s third year when they’ll be paying 13 million for a 35 year old low OBP-low average-slap hitter.

  256. Raul Says:

    It’s like karma for the release of Chone Figgins.
    Now, several teams have to dole out shitty contracts.

    I can’t wait until someone throws 50 million to Rafael Soriano…

  257. Chuck Says:

    On their annual free agent contest, the consensus for Victorino was he’d sign a one year “comeback” deal (like Haren did) for about 7-8 million.

    He actually turned down a 4/44 from Cleveland.

  258. Raul Says:

    Wow.

    Who the hell is running things in Cleveland? The idiot banging the drum 50 rows back in right field?

  259. Raul Says:

    Tom Verducci on Shane Victorino joining the @RedSox: “He’s another guy who can grind out at-bats.” #MLBTonight

    That’s code talk for “he sucks”

  260. Chuck Says:

    The best part of MLBNetwork’s Winter Meetings coverage was Kevin Millar’s dissing of Brian Kenny.

    Kenny was on the desk with Millar and Dan Plesac and they were discussing “the best pitcher on the market”.

    Millar said, rightfully, that it was Zack Greinke, but if the Rays really are serious about trading David Price that he would be on top.

    Kenny said it was RA Dickey.

    “Over the past three years, he’s been the 11th best pitcher in baseball, and here’s the evidence”.

    He then hands Millar an index card with, apparently, Dickey’s sabermetric stats on it.

    Millar looks at it, frowns his face, says, “you sabermetric guys”, and flips the card away.

    Plesac asks Kenny, “so you’d trade for Dickey?”, and Kenny, almost incredulously, says, “yes, absolutely, no question”, to which Millar says, “even without your card?”

    Then he explains to Kenny why he’s an idiot.

  261. Raul Says:

    Dickey has been a good pitcher over the last few years.
    And, would I trade for him? Well, that depends on what the Mets are asking for. Yes, he is a Cy Young winner. But he is like 38 years old and you just aren’t sure how long his success will last. It’s not like Dickey is 26 just because he is a knuckleballer. That’s not exactly how things work.

  262. Chuck Says:

    Another gem..

    Kenny: “Astros are building the front office of the future”.

    Millar: “One that’s going to lose 100 games a year for the next five years”.

  263. Chuck Says:

    That was Millar’s point, Raul.

    The fact Dickey throws a trick pitch doesn’t off-set his age at all, and trick pitches lose effectiveness just like fastballs and sliders do.

    He said you can’t bank on Dickey being effective until he’s 49 like Wilhelm was, or 46 like Niekro, he could lose his “feel” for the pitch tomorrow, and, unlike a conventional pitcher, would have nothing else to fall back on.

    Which, of course, is something which wouldn’t appear on an index card.

  264. Raul Says:

    The Astros are building the front office of the future?

    What does that even mean?

  265. Chuck Says:

    Non-baseball personnel..business, number oriented younger people.

  266. Chuck Says:

    Jason Bay’s going to Seattle.

  267. Bob Says:

    Two things about the Victorino contract, which was 1 year too long in my view.

    1. This opens up the possibility of trading Ellsbury, either now or July
    2. The Sox protect their draft pick, which is one of their annual goals..
    3. I thought a 2-year deal worth 23-25 M would have sufficed, but lord, he had a 4-year deal that he turned down.

  268. Bob Says:

    I wish Bay well.

  269. Bob Says:

    Robin Yount shot Dale Sveum in a hunting accident.

  270. Raul Says:

    Is that really the future? Hasn’t that already been going on for years?

  271. Raul Says:

    Fragile as he is, Ellsbury has more upside than Victorino…if Ellsbury is healthy

  272. Bob Says:

    @ 270. Not in Houston!!!

  273. Bob Says:

    Ellsbury is also a free-agent next year and the Sox have either

    1. Little confidence they can retain him no matter what: or
    2. Acknowledge he and Boras will not grant them a home town discount, but will accept “market value” from them.

  274. Chuck Says:

    Ellsbury:

    2011 defines the term “career year”, he had never, at any level, shown the ability to perform anywhere close to those numbers, and has shown a propensity to being injury prone.

    Not only that, he has missed a lot more time with seemingly insignificant injuries, certainly more time than what would be considered average.

    This is not a guy I’d want to invest in long-term regardless of who is agent is, so if I can get something for him of reasonable value, then he’s gone.

  275. Raul Says:

    By the time Ellsbury is a FA next year, he’ll be a month past 30.

    As it stands today, market value to Ellsbury is probably in the vicinity of 3/25 million. And that’s just on the hope he can find his power stroke from 2011.

    If he can put together a similar year in 2013, then he’s looking at 5/90.
    If he can’t, well then who knows what he’ll get.

    My guess is he puts together a .275/.350/.465 season with 25 steals and signs for 4/75…with the White Sox, after it becomes painfully clear that Alejandro de Aza just isn’t cutting it.

  276. Chuck Says:

    “As it stands today, market value to Ellsbury is probably in the vicinity of 3/25 million.”

    Not when Victorino got $39.

  277. Raul Says:

    I can’t believe the Mariners are considering signing Jason Bay.

    I’m starting to think they have some sort of sadistic disorder…like they enjoy the pain of someone hitting .220 and earning ten times more money than Mike Trout

  278. Raul Says:

    Good point @ Chuck 276

  279. Raul Says:

    Actually, I wonder if Ellsbury would consider Seattle.

    I think Gutierrez has a buy-out option next year and Ellsbury is from Oregon, or something

  280. Bob Says:

    The Mariners are taking very little risk. The Mets are the team that is paying him. Bay is from Vancouver, so he is just playing for his home team. If he sucks, the Mariners can can him rather easily.

    Also, the Giants retained Marco Scutaro.

  281. Bob Says:

    I am sure Ellsbury would consider Seattle. I had a co-worker who spent 15 years in Washington and he said the rain is overstated and Seattle is a nice city

  282. Chuck Says:

    Do Red Sox fans really believe Victorino can/will play RF?

    Of course they’ll trade Ellsbury.

    It may be sooner, it may be later, but it will happen.

  283. Bob Says:

    They believe he will play it. Playing it well? Depends on the fan.

  284. Raul Says:

    I don’t know what the Red Sox think they can get for Ellsbury.

    He will be a FA and no one will give up a starting pitching prospect for 8 weeks of Ellsbury.

    Cherington is probably looking at LOOGYs as we speak

  285. Chuck Says:

    Red Sox shortstops are Jose Iglesias and Pedro Ciriaco.

    If you don’t think the Sox wouldn’t trade Ellsbury tomorrow for Dee Gordon and an autographed Magic Johnson basketball, then you’re not the only one with a bridge for sale.

  286. Raul Says:

    Dee Gordon sucks though.

    Where’s Ellsbury playing in LA? LF? Makes sense I guess.

    I hope they don’t plan on putting Hanley at SS.

  287. Chuck Says:

    Mattingly said yesterday that Ramirez is the SS heading into ST.

  288. Chuck Says:

    “Dee Gordon sucks though.”

    So does Ellsbury..that’s the point..if the Sox think they’re getting back Danny Hultzen they’re nuts.

  289. Chuck Says:

    Happy Birthday Justin Smoak.

    When I get home I’ll check and see if he has a Twitter account and have my daughter send him a message.

    Scott Munninghoff and Josh Leuke share something in common other than the same birthday and being pitchers.

  290. Raul Says:

    I know Mattingly is Torre’s protege and all, but I don’t think playing a shitty SS is the kind of tradition one wants to set.

  291. Bob Says:

    The Diamondbacks signed Eric Chavez.

  292. Chuck Says:

    interesting.

  293. Chuck Says:

    I have a sneaking suspicion the Yanks are going to end up with Mark Reynolds.

  294. Bob Says:

    With Keppinger also off the market, and the Yanks needind a guy to man 3rd either him or Youk

  295. Raul Says:

    Youk is a douchebag. I don’t want him.

    Mark Reynolds? Between him and Granderson, they’d have 250 combined K’s by Memorial Day.

  296. Chuck Says:

    Yanks really aren’t interested in Youkilis for what he’s asking.

    And I’m not sure how much he’d be interested in a one year deal, or not playing everyday after ARod comes back.

    Plus, a Red Sox in a Yankee uniform?

    Yechh.

  297. Raul Says:

    Wait. Fucking Keppinger got a 3 year deal?!?!?!?

    Lefty is right. This has to be the worst free agent market ever.

  298. Bob Says:

    “Plus a Red Sox in a Yankee uniform?”

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Roger Clemens

  299. Raul Says:

    Think I just heard the Padres will move the fences in 10-15 feet.

  300. Chuck Says:

    You’re right, Bob, what was I thinking.

    Ruth=Youkilis.

  301. Chuck Says:

    Dbacks to Indians: “We would like Asdrubal Cabrera”

    Indians to Dbacks: “It will cost you Tyler Skaggs”

    Dbacks to Indians: “No on Skaggs, how about Trevor Bauer instead?”

    Told ya so.

  302. Raul Says:

    1-year deal for Chavez in AZ.
    This might just be a move so Chavez can be closer to home.

  303. Bob Says:

    Not yet.

  304. Raul Says:

    Sure seems like the stock on Bauer has fallen from this time last year.

    Aren’t there whispers that the Dbacks are getting tired of Bauer’s ….”habits” and routines? He seems to live in his own world.

  305. Bob Says:

    The Yanks are open to trading Granderson. So how about Granderson to the Rangers for Mike Olt if they fail to sign Hamilton? The Rangers have depth with Beltre and possibly Profar.

  306. Raul Says:

    Skaggs for Asdrubal? No way. Maybe if it revolved around Profar

  307. Chuck Says:

    I like it..he’ll get a lot more playing time here at first and third and Chase is a good park to hit in.

  308. Raul Says:

    Wait. Sorry. Profar isn’t with Cleveland. Who is the Indians SS prospect ?

  309. Raul Says:

    Whoa Bob.
    Granderson for Olt? How dumb do you think the Rangers are?

  310. Chuck Says:

    Dbacks want either Olt or Profar for Upton, so far the deal isn’t going anywhere. This time tomorrow? Different story.

  311. Bob Says:

    The Rangers have plenty of prospects plus Beltre and if Hamilton departs they will need an outfielder. If they retain Hamilton, then no deal.

  312. Chuck Says:

    “Who is the Indians SS prospect”?

    Francisco Lindor.

  313. Chuck Says:

    Murphy LF, Martin CF, Upton RF.

    Not bad.

  314. Bob Says:

    Lindor is the SS you were thinking of.

  315. Raul Says:

    SF gave 37-year old Marco Scutaro a 3 year contract.

    Somebody in San Francisco…please…protest…glitter bomb Brian Sabean…DO SOMETHING!!!!

  316. Bob Says:

    Sabean can do no wrong. He has plenty of leverage.

  317. John Says:

    “glitter bomb Brian Sabean”

    Lol.

    He’s won two of the last three world titles.

    At this point, he could sign Willie McCovey to a 4-year deal and Giants fans will probably be like “yeah, okay, that seems about right.”

    Man though…Sabean loves his aging veterans.

  318. Raul Says:

    By the middle of June, when Scutaro is OPSing 650, he’ll be begging for a SS

  319. Bob Says:

    Possibly. But he will not be begging for a job.

  320. Raul Says:

    Sabean and Beane must own upper california

  321. Raul Says:

    Amazing…just read this one on twitter:

    Rumor of a Granderson for Cliff Lee trade brewing. Must be LSD because Marijuana isn’t that strong

  322. Bob Says:

    LOL

  323. Chuck Says:

    “Red Sox in the mix for Nick Swisher, but will attempt to trade Jacoby Ellsbury before finalizing a deal.”

  324. Raul Says:

    Well crap, if they gave Victorino 39 million…they gonna dole out 60 million for Swisher? Ugh.

    I would almost prefer to be the GM or Owner of a small market team. No way I’d pay these scrubs that money

  325. Raul Says:

    Dear lord,

    I tuned to the YES network. Apparently they’re reporting on the winter meetings and some guy is wearing what appears to be a black velvet blazer.

  326. Chuck Says:

    It’s almost getting to the point now where you can’t listen to sports talk on the radio anymore..the commercialization has put them on par with dollar driven TV entities like Sportscenter.

    Kobe Bryant last night became the fifth player in NBA history to score 30,000 points. (He is the youngest, but played the most games of the previous four).

    Mike Greenberg this morning asked if Bryant is now one of the top five players ever, then proceeded to list his top three no-brainers…Jordan, Robertson and……Russell.

    Listen, dumbass…the number of rings a player has means he played on great TEAMS, not that he was a great PLAYER.

    ANYBODY who would put Bill Russell on the list of top five players, or who would list Russell ahead of Wilt or Magic or Bird should be immediately fired.

    Talking out your ass to create controversy like Mike Francesa does is one thing, but he’s a local hack that no one hears outside 100 miles from New York.

    There comes added responsibility when you host a national broadcast with a national audience..you don’t need to say stupid things to generate an audience, you say intelligent things to generate your audience.

    Good way to start the day.

  327. Lefty33 Says:

    “Listen, dumbass…the number of rings a player has means he played on great TEAMS, not that he was a great PLAYER”

    So you’re saying that Shaq, Duncan, Will Perdue and Kurt Rambis are not the same because they all have four rings?

    Well that just ruined my morning.

  328. Chuck Says:

    I have a funny feeling your morning may get worse….

  329. Lefty33 Says:

    You mean like this: http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-knobler/21284250/phillies-rangers-talk-about-trade-for-michael-young

  330. Chuck Says:

    That would be it.

    Saw that this morning and drew a mental picture of your coffee cup hitting the wall. :)

  331. Lefty33 Says:

    “Saw that this morning and drew a mental picture of your coffee cup hitting the wall.”

    Pretty damn close.

    Same as Youk likely going to the Yankees.

  332. Chuck Says:

    Don’t say that, not even as a joke.

    Thankfully, I don’t see it happening..he wants to play everyday, which he won’t do in NY.

    More likely he reunites with Francona in Cleveland.

  333. Lefty33 Says:

    But is Cleveland going to pay him?

    He supposedly has $12 million on the table from Cashman for 2013 if he wants it.

  334. Chuck Says:

    I’m not sure why he’d do that.

    He won’t play full time..if he’s looking at a one year to show he can still play at a decent level, why go somewhere knowing you won’t play everyday?

  335. Lefty33 Says:

    My only guess would be that even he knows that he’s physically toast in terms of playing 3B for a full season so why even try? Grab the cash with the thinking that it’s better to play well for 3/4 of a season then it is to suck/get injured trying to play a whole season when your body will no longer allow it.

  336. Bob Says:

    ARid will DH alot when he returns. Though I expect Cleveland to win for two reasons.

    1. Francona
    2. He gets to play in Ohio.

  337. Chuck Says:

    Don’t expect much to happen today outside the Rule V draft.

    A lot of teams have either left or will leave early today.

    If I was a betting man and could pick one or two deals to go down this morning, I’d put my money on Dickey and Upton trades becoming final.

  338. Chuck Says:

    Rule V draft is over..35 minutes.

    Major League, AAA and AA…three rounds..a lot of passing.

  339. Chuck Says:

    Major League Rule V picks.

    HOU:Josh Fields, RHP, (BOS)
    CHC:Hector Rondon, RHP, (CLE)
    COL:Daniel Rosenbaum, LHP (WAS)
    MIN:Ryan Pressly, RHP (BOS)
    CLE:Chris McGuiness, 1B (TEX)
    MIA:Alfredo Silverio, OF (LAD)
    BOS:Jeff Koberbus, 2B (WAS)
    NYM:Kyle Lobstein, LHP (TB)
    ARI:Starling Peralta, RHP (CHC)
    PHI:Ender Inciarte, OF (ARI)
    CWS:Angel Sanchez, INF (LAA)
    BAL:T.J. McFarland, LHP (CLE)
    TEX:Coty Woods, RHP (COL)
    HOU:Nate Freiman, 1B (SD)
    MIA:Braulio Lara, LHP (TB)

  340. Bob Says:

    Boston traded their selection to the Tigers.

  341. John Says:

    If Youkilis does go to the Yankees, he would just need to hold down 3B by himself until ARod comes back…and then the two could alternate between 3B and DH, getting a day off every couple series or so to rotate Jeter into DH.

    If I was the Yankees, I wouldn’t go for an expensive 3B option though. There are plenty of cheap options – Keppinger, Inge, etc – you still have C and RF to fill.

  342. Raul Says:

    Keppinger is off the market and Inge stinks.

  343. Lefty33 Says:

    “If I was the Yankees, I wouldn’t go for an expensive 3B option though. There are plenty of cheap options – Keppinger, Inge, etc – you still have C and RF to fill.”

    The White Sox signed Keppinger for 3/12 and Inge is Latin for Suck.

  344. John Says:

    Ah, Keppinger to the White Sox. Missed that.

    Inge stinks, you’re right. In fact, you could probably do better than him internally, now that I think about it.

  345. John Says:

    Wow, 3/12 for Keppinger? I thought he would be like, 1/3. LOL.

  346. Bob Says:

    If the Yanks could do better than that internally, they would not be linked to Reynolds and Youkilis.

  347. Lefty33 Says:

    Yeah dude, the overpays this offseason have been epic.

    The effects from MLB’s new TV deal are being felt in ways that to me are surreal.

  348. Bob Says:

    Somebody on MLB last night floated a Granderson for Dickey trade. I chuckled.

  349. Bob Says:

    Phillies acquire Ben Revere for Vance Worley and Trevor May.

  350. Chuck Says:

    Interesting..so the only CF on Minnesota’s roster is Darin Mastrianni.

  351. Lefty33 Says:

    “Phillies acquire Ben Revere for Vance Worley and Trevor May.”

    So in essence they gave up their #4 SP and one of their top three minor league arms for Juan Pierre II?

    I like that he makes contact and his D is solid but he’s got no pop in his bat and he hits LH. That’s just what the team needed, another LH bat. Now they can go Rollins (S), Revere(L), Utley(L), Howard(L), Brown (L) to start.

    At least he’s under club control until 2017 but by itself this is not the greatest move except in avoiding getting close to 178.

  352. Lefty33 Says:

    To me it looks like Boras has overplayed his hand a bit in the market for Bourn.

    Who is really left that will give him a monster five/six year deal?

    Sidebar: Jason Grilli likely back to the Pirates for 2/3.5 as they continue to shop Hanrahan.

  353. Raul Says:

    Bourn just isn’t that good. I could see a team giving him 10M per year. But it would have had to have been a big market team with money to blow. Also, Bourn would have to sign early. Let’s face it, he sets the market for others. Nobody is setting the market for him.

    If Swisher gets 40-50 million, that doesn’t really push Bourn’s value any higher. He’s still a 9 million-ish guy.
    Whoever signs him just better hope he can steal and hit for average. We’re already seeing what happens to speed guys who age in Jose Reyes.

  354. John Says:

    I like Bourn a lot – tremendous defensively and on the bases. But there’s a lot of risk associated with signing a guy like him long-term. If his legs start to go when he gets into his 30’s, he’ll struggle mightily…hard to leg out 40 infield hits a year following knee surgery.

    Ben Revere for Vance Worley & a top pitching prospect? Sorry Lefty, Amaro got hosed. Maybe by the end of the day, he will have emptied out the farm system for Michael Young. The only question is if Evan Grant will follow him to Philly or just hold a candle-light vigil instead.

  355. John Says:

    “If Swisher gets 40-50 million, that doesn’t really push Bourn’s value any higher.”

    It’s apples and oranges, really. I think Bourn contributes more in the field…right now. But Swisher’s skill-set is more likely to carry into his 30’s, compared to Bourn.

  356. Lefty33 Says:

    “Sorry Lefty, Amaro got hosed. Maybe by the end of the day, he will have emptied out the farm system for Michael Young.”

    I don’t know; it’s a very puzzling move. There are too many angles on this deal to look at right now without knowing the full picture of what else Amaro may or may not do before March 27th.

  357. Chuck Says:

    Swisher’s contract doesnt’ affect Bourn’s..although Victorino’s certainly did.

    Will Bourne get a $13 AAV over five or six years? No, but he could end up with the exact same 3/39 Victorino got.

  358. Bob Says:

    The Red Sox will sign Koji Uehara. 1-year deal.

  359. Raul Says:

    The Mets should try to fleece another young pitching prospect from Sabean.

    Also, I forgot that the Astros move to the AL West in 2013.
    Who wins more games? Houston or Seattle?

  360. Bob Says:

    Seattle

  361. Chuck Says:

    What team do you think will win the most games next year?

    Take that number..95..98.., whatever, and add ten to that.

    That’s how many Houston will lose.

    They will legendarily suck..maybe not ‘62 Mets suck, but certainly an all-timer.

  362. John Says:

    Actually, I think Houston (and probably Seattle)’s mere presence in the division will mean inflated win totals for the other three teams. The winner of the AL West might win 105+ games this year.

  363. Bob Says:

    1. The Cubs signed Ian Stewart.
    2. Will the Mariners win the Hamilton sweepstakes?

  364. Bob Says:

    The Mariners, if they sign Hamilton, will be in the mix. You take him away from a west rival, you have Felix and you hope Ackley takes to the new stadium.

  365. Raul Says:

    What new stadium? It’s still Safeco

  366. Bob Says:

    They moved the fences in a bit. Sorry for the confusion.

  367. John Says:

    I just heard that rumor last night, wrote it off…but now it’s picking up steam.

    Seems like a move the Mariners almost half to make if they can – but also a move they would most likely regret.

  368. Bob Says:

    1. Much like the Angels with Pujols in a couple of years.

  369. Raul Says:

    Joe Blanton got 2/15M

    Holy shit. I’m getting my glove and showing up to the nearest tryout.

  370. Raul Says:

    Kevin Millar called Michael Young a franchise player.
    I think he meant a McDonalds franchise.

  371. Raul Says:

    Chris Rose also just said he loves the Ben Revere/Vance Worley and May trade…..he loves it for Philly.

    Is this the day they compete with Brian Kenny for dumbest statements possible?

  372. John Says:

    So, Greinke and Haren have left – at least the Angels made up for the aggregate weight loss in the rotation.

  373. John Says:

    Wouldn’t it be something if Young invoked his no-trade clause after (twice!) throwing a temper-tantrum about having to change positions to accommodate superior defensive players and demanding trades?

  374. Chuck Says:

    I like Ian Stewart.

    Not really sure why, though.

    Same reason I liked Brandon Wood I guess.

    Wow, $15 million for a batting practice pitcher is pretty steep..but then again, so is the pile of cash in Arte Moreno’s bank account.

    Maybe he can give me a job for $550k to sweep his suite after games.

  375. Raul Says:

    lol @ chuck

    thought the same thing

  376. Chuck Says:

    I believe Greinke will sign with the Rangers, which pushes Hamilton out.

    If that happens, then the Upton trade happens.

    From what I’ve heard, Cleveland big-time overvalues Cabrera, so if there’s another team involved, it will be Tampa.

    Upton to Texas, James Shields to Arizona, and prospects from Texas to Tampa.

    The Indians and Dbacks may still do the Cabrera deal, Cleveland want Skaggs, Dbacks would rather trade Bauer.

  377. Bob Says:

    1. Grienke-Rangers
    2. Hamilton-Seattle
    3. Bourn ???
    4. Youk- Reunites with Francona
    5. Swisher???
    6. Cody Ross Yankees

  378. Chuck Says:

    1. Grienke-Rangers…agree
    2. Hamilton-Seattle…maybe
    3. Bourn ???..who cares..Seattle wants him, but the Hamilton talks have that on hold.
    4. Youk- Reunites with Francona…agree
    5. Swisher???…my guess is Tampa
    6. Cody Ross Yankees..heard that too..my guess is less than 50/50

  379. Bob Says:

    1. Ryan Ludwick is a Red
    2. Cano will not give the Yankeees a discount.

  380. Raul Says:

    Whatever.
    Seriously. Cano can go play for whoever he wants. I don’t give a shit. He has peaked.

    If anyone thinks this guy is gonna suddenly add 10 homers and 20 points to his batting average, let that sucker sign him to some insane 200M contract.

    I’m sick and fucking tired of the Yankees spending money just because they have it. BE SMART.

  381. Chuck Says:

    Completely agree.

    The silence surrounding the Yankees at the Winter Meetings was deafening..they got outbid by the friggin’ Pirates for Russell Martin for chrissakes.

    Getting below the $189 luxury tax threshold seems to be a reality for them, and I’m glad in a sense.

    The ARod opt out/resigning will go down in history as the worst (and dumbest) contract ever.

    Regardless of how much money you have, you still have to spend it wisely.

    They have the oldest team and one of the worst farm systems. Unless they’re smart today, they’re going to massively suck in five years when everyone is gone.

    I would absolutely let Cano walk.

  382. Raul Says:

    Definitely let him walk. You just can’t add another massive contract to a guy like Cano. He’s not a scrub. He’s a good player. But already he isn’t known to really give a shit about base running and defense. So just imagine what he’ll be in 4 years.

    Who knows? By the end of this year, the Yankees could find themselves with a Sabathia who suddenly resembles Phil Hughes…and they have to pay him for like 5 more years. I mean, you just don’t know.

    I also have to think that any Cano signing would be exactly like Arod’s last deal. Seriously, who would the Yankees be bidding against?
    Boston? They have Pedroia.
    The Dodgers? With all the money they took on lately?
    Texas? If they’re taking Greinke and Upton, how do they pay 25M to anyone else?
    The Cubs? Listen, 2B is literally the least of their problems.
    San Francisco? Only way that’s even possible is if the Giants trade some pitchers. And I can’t see SF doing a 10 year deal. No way. Not after the Barry Zito contract. Plus, would the Giants outbid the Yankees? Highly unlikely.

    So unless the Nintendo guys in Seattle decide to pony up 27M a year and convince Cano to move to left fucking field, that’s not happening.

  383. Raul Says:

    4/18M for Cano is more than fair. It’s generous. Otherwise, take a hike.

  384. Raul Says:

    4 at 18 per. So 78 million.
    Im cheap.

  385. Raul Says:

    God damn it
    72 not 78

  386. Chuck Says:

    I know what you meant.

    Looks like just a money thing now between Philly and Texas..Michael Young has waived his no trade.

    Hopefully Lefty stays away from sharp objects for the next couple of days.

  387. Raul Says:

    Lol are they going to platoon Michael Young at 1B with Howard?

  388. Chuck Says:

    He’s going to be the everyday third baseman.

  389. Chuck Says:

    Trade is official..Young for two minor league pitchers and some cabbage.

  390. Chuck Says:

    And a $1.2 million trade “bonus”.

    Young rejected Phillies attempts at a contract extension.

    Rangers will be paying approximately $10 million of Young’s $16 mil salary.

  391. Lefty33 Says:

    The “bonus” was because of the difference in state tax rates.

    Lindblom came over in the Victorino trade from LA last year and looked awful.

    The deal is in essence a year of Young, using him as a bridge until hopefully Cody Asche is ready in 2014, for Lisalberto Bonilla who was solid last year at Clearwater and Reading and could be closer/8th inning type material in the near future (12.5 K/9).

    I assume that Young plays 3B most of the time and probably fills in for Howard on days when they face LHP with Frandsen playing 3B.

    I’m OK with this move because it’s better than spending close to $20 million on a two year deal for Youk just like getting Revere was better than spending 75 million on Upton.

    Making these two moves still leaves them a decent chunk of change under the tax cap to get another OF and/or another pen piece instead of blowing their whole offseason load on one guy.

  392. Chuck Says:

    “I’m OK with this move because it’s better than spending close to $20 million on a two year deal for Youk just like getting Revere was better than spending 75 million on Upton.”

    Good point. Although you have to admit the Phils overpaid for Span.

    “using him as a bridge until hopefully Cody Asche is ready in 2014″

    I saw Asche in the AFL and I really like him.

  393. Lefty33 Says:

    They probably did overpay for Revere but they seem to be saying:

    “Who cares about tomorrow when you can stay under the tax threshold today”.

  394. Chuck Says:

    I meant Revere. #dumbass

    The Nationals gave up the starting center on their charity basketball team for the Twins starting CF, the Phillies gave up a starting pitcher and the minor league cumulative strikeout leader over the past three seasons for a bench player.

    I’ll bet ten bucks Revere’s in Allentown by June.

  395. Chuck Says:

    Did you know there’s a website dedicated to getting Dr. Frank Jobe into the Hall of Fame?

    I shit you not.

    http://drjobehof.org/

    I hate the fucking internet.

  396. Raul Says:

    Is it ignorance that I had no idea who Frank Jobe was?

  397. Raul Says:

    From some website:

    Punta Cana, DR.– Felix Sanchez, Juan Marichal and Robinson Cano are some of the celebrities attending the fifth edition of the the David Ortiz Celebrity Golf Classic taking place this weekend at the Punta Espada Golf Course, designed by Jack Nicklaus.

    The event also includes Ortiz’ current teammates Mark Melancon and Clayton Mortensen in attendance, along with former teammates Pedro Martinez and Johnny Damon, among other athletes and actors.

    Presented by vitaminwater, the event is dedicated to raising funds for the David Ortiz Children’s Fund, which provides critical pediatric healthcare to children in New England and the Dominican Republic.

    In its first four years, the David Ortiz Celebrity Golf Classic has netted over US$750,000 for the Fund and introduced friends, teammates, sponsors and supporters to the charity and its mission.

    I’m pretty sure Papi sucks at golf. I’m also amazed that Mark Melancon is a close friend. Sure seems like they’ve only been teammates for a short time.

  398. Jim Says:

    Its pretty much expected that if you a scrub on the RS that you make an appearance at Papi’s tourney. On the other hand, a few December days at a posh resort in the DR is hardly onerous duty.

    Also Cano appreciates the irony of Youklis and Joba being teammates.

  399. Chuck Says:

    “Its pretty much expected that if you a scrub on the RS that you make an appearance at Papi’s tourney.

    “Hey Dustin, you in for my tournament”

    “Hell, no”

    “Hey, Jacoby, you in for my tournament”

    “Fuck, no”

    “Hey, Lester…..”

    Half an hour and phone calls later…

    “Hey Clayton, you down for my tournament”

    Either that, or playing in his tournament is punishment for having the most Kangaroo Court fines during the season, or, it replaces rookie initiation.

    You can either fly to Cleveland dressed like a ballerina, or you can play in Papi’s tournament.

    “Also Cano appreciates the irony of Youklis and Joba being teammates.”

    Yankees traded Joba to Cleveland?

    No shit, really? Haven’t seen that yet.

    Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

  400. Raul Says:

    Lol pretty funny. Though worth noting that’s a nice charity by Ortiz.

    Yankees are gonna need all the bullpen help they can get. Last year’s rotation surpassed my expectations, but I don’t think it happens again. Look for Kuroda and Pettitte to take big steps back this year.

  401. Bob Says:

    The Dodgers and Grienke. 6 years, with an opt out clause after 3.

  402. Raul Says:

    Guaranteed to opt out…unless he is injured

  403. Mike Felber Says:

    Big gun contract coming.

    http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2012-12-08/zack-greinke-free-agency-2013-dodgers-closing-in-on-ace-rangers-angels?ncid=webmail11

  404. Cameron Says:

    Hey guys, sorry about the setback in coming back on. Gonna be moving tomorrow and I’ve got my stuff packed up. I’ll get internet back tomorrow. Look forward to getting back into the fold.

  405. Bob Says:

    You still in Ohio?

  406. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but not homeless anymore.

  407. John Says:

    Good to see you Cam! You haven’t missed many articles :D

  408. Mike Felber Says:

    Welcome back Cameron!

  409. Raul Says:

    Hey Cameron…don’t hang yourself.

    It’s only the end of your fucking franchise for the next 20 years

  410. Chuck Says:

    LOL

  411. Bob Says:

    1. The Indians sgned Reynolds.
    2. The Rays-Royals had a blckbuster.

  412. JohnBowen Says:

    Threw up a post about this craziness.

    Sorry, Cam.

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