Torii Hunter’s Views on Homosexuality are Unacceptable in 21st Century

by JohnBowen

Over the weekend, Detroit Tigers outfielder Torii Hunter was quoted as saying the following regarding the prospect of having a gay teammate:

“For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it’s not right. It will be difficult and uncomfortable.”

It shouldn’t be too difficult to spot the backwardness in his comments. For one thing, homosexuality is mentioned essentially in passing in the Old Testament with roughly the same level of gravity as tattoos. Condemned far more explicitly are things like, for example, adultery. My guess is that Hunter hasn’t had any problem playing with men who cheat on their wives. Jealousy and greed are also condemned – again, far more explicitly – and yet, Torii Hunter had no problem taking to twitter to complain about not receiving a contract offer from the team that had paid him 90 million dollars over the past five years.

Furthermore, if Hunter is an actual student of the Bible, he should know that the New Testament talks quite a bit about loving your neighbor and accepting others who are different. “Judge not, lest ye be judged” was a saying from Jesus that seems to have fallen by the wayside for the Tigers’ new outfielder.

Beyond the inherent ignorance of treating fellow humans like lesser beings, there comes the ignorance that Torii Hunter actually believes that he’s never played with a gay teammate. Not even counting time spent in high school and the minors, Hunter has played in parts of 16 seasons with two teams and will suit up with a third this spring. That’s several hundred people that he’s played with, showered with, changed in front of, and yet – somehow he thinks that he has dodged all the percentages and somehow had 100% straight teammates.

But the most frustrating thing about Hunter’s sentiments is how they simply are not unique among Major League ballplayers, or professional athletes in general. Not one of the thousands of professional athletes in the four major American sports has dared to come out as openly gay during their playing career; the tolerance that has all-too-slowly started creeping its way into mainstream society just does not exist in professional clubhouses. And while some, like Minnesota Vikings punter Chris Kluwe and Baltimore Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo have taken to the public in support of marriage equality, the taboo of being a gay professional athlete is an ironclad wall preventing acceptance.

This has far reaching effects that go outside the realm of bigoted locker rooms. Young kids all across the country look up to professional athletes. And by any objective measure, Torii Hunter is actually one of the people they should be looking up toor at least he was before these comments.  If you’re 7 years old and you learn that your favorite wall-climbing outfielder thinks that homosexuality is wrong, that’s going to be an opinion that can stick with you. Consider that this attitude prevails throughout professional sports, and you have a lot of young children with misguided role models. While the natural tide of human progress is making inroads on this matter of tolerance, the wave of irresponsible athletes with reprehensible attitudes toward their fellow man is sure to slow this social evolution.

It’s not too late for Hunter. As I mentioned before – he’s actually one of the good ones – an upstanding citizen in the community and by all accounts a tremendous teammate – the exact sort of person you would want your kids to look up to. With a little bit of backlash, hopefully Hunter will see the error of his ways, the error of his Biblical interpretation, apologize, and continue to be the role model that his past actions have made him out to be.

143 Responses to “Torii Hunter’s Views on Homosexuality are Unacceptable in 21st Century”

  1. Chuck Says:

    I wonder what Jesus told Hunter after his son was arrested for sexual assault.

    And..as a 22 year pro, the chances Hunter has not had a gay teammate are roughly zero.

    So, he’s a hypocritical douchebag.

  2. Raul Says:

    Well done, John.

    Agree 100%

  3. Chuck Says:

    “Royals sign 38 year old Miguel Tejada to one year, $1.1 million deal”

    Happy New Year, Cam.

  4. Lefty33 Says:

    It’s a good point John and I agree with you but in a way it’s irrelevant because it’s not a viewpoint that is going anywhere anytime soon, nor is it unacceptable to a growing number of millions in the 21st Century.

    I’ve got some whacko members in my family who are Baptist and the central mantra of their whole religion is more or less if you are not Caucasian, heterosexual and celibate before marriage you’re going to hell. You’re either with them or you’re against them with no room for a middle ground.

    Their Bible is not my Bible which is probably not your Bible.

    I guess because I’ve been exposed to this for years I’m not shocked or surprised by this line of thinking from Hunter.

    Look at some of the viewpoints associated by Bob Jones University in SC and you get a taste of this…it’s not even thinking in so much as it’s a way of life.

    I mean this year they expelled a student because he was caught watching Glee on his laptop. Compared to BJU doing that, what Hunter may or may not have said is in comparison small and in today’s news cycle a mousefart.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/27/this-student-was-kicked-o_n_1459660.html

  5. Chuck Says:

    Well, at least Hunter finally explained, albeit indirectly, why he didn’t sign with Texas.

    Although if he was really a man about it, he could have..without mentioning names.

    Sometimes, even if it’s really stupid or ignorant, you say more by not saying anything.

  6. Chuck Says:

    I wonder how many people genuflecting on Roberto Clemente today would be doing so if they knew the real reason he got on the plane?

  7. JohnBowen Says:

    You keep mentioning that there’s another reason.

  8. Chuck Says:

    He went to rescue his mistress and out of wedlock child.

  9. JohnBowen Says:

    Wow. Certainly never heard that one before.

    Without naming any names, obviously, how many degrees of separation are there between you and Clemente?

  10. Chuck Says:

    I’m not Puerto Rican.

  11. Jim Says:

    People with attitudes like Hunter’s will always be around but we’re fast reaching the point where they are unacceptable. It would be nice if Ilitch or Bud slapped Hunter down for this, but we’re not there yet.

  12. Chuck Says:

    First thing I did this morning was go in to every website where I have an account (except this one) and cancelled my registration/profiles..SBNation..Bleacher Report, HHS…even MLB.com.

    Done.

    Other than writing at BigLeagueMagazine.com and the SABR bio project and whatever comes up here, I am retiring from the internet.

    I haven’t decided on Twitter yet…for now I think I’ll keep it, but that’s it.

  13. Raul Says:

    Looks like you’ve reached your limit.

  14. Chuck Says:

    Yep, you could say that.

  15. Chuck Says:

    My New Year’s resolution is less, but more productive, internet.

    The SABR bio stuff is fun..no pay, but the research and interviewing process is interesting.

    That’s going to take off big time for me come February, plus with working with the Brewers again in spring training (hopefully), I really won’t have time to fuck around.

  16. Chuck Says:

    Besides..how many “Top Ten Shoe sizes in the NBA” crap can you read?

  17. Raul Says:

    I realized early on that Bleacher Report was little more than a bunch of stupid lists.

    I was so disappointed when they ran commercials for Bleacher Report during the playoffs.

    MLB.com’s website is just screwy for me. Complex to navigate, takes long to load, and the content seems like a bunch of fluff. No honest critiques and they are often late in reporting things on the website that they themselves release to the media.

  18. Bob Says:

    John, well said.

  19. John Says:

    Writing for BR was exceedingly frustrating. You put time and enerty into an article, and it gets 200 reads. Then some guy makes a slideshow of the 50 ugliest players ever and pushes a million reads….it truly is the lowest xommon denominator of sports writing.

  20. Chuck Says:

    I haven’t posted on BR in probably a year, but my account was still active..I’d get their email newsletters and I’d read whatever John or Shaun or someone else I knew’s stuff.

    Not any more.

    “I was so disappointed when they ran commercials for Bleacher Report during the playoffs.”

    Bleacher Report is owned by Turner Sports, that’s why you saw ads.

  21. Bob Says:

    New Years resolution.
    1. Steamed broccoli twice a week.
    2. More red wine, less rum and cokes.

  22. Raul Says:

    So Joel Hanrahan will be the Red Sox’s closer in 2013, with Andrew Bailey as the setup man.

    Also, Boston continues to negotiate with Adam LaRoche since the deal with Mike Napoli is currently in limbo.

    According to ESPN’s depth charts, Boston figures to field an outfield of Johnny Gomes in Left, Jacoby Ellsbury in Center, and Shane Victorino in Right.

    And unless I am forgetting someone, it appears Jerry Sands will play 1B. But that can’t be right, can it?

  23. Bob Says:

    Jerry Sands is in Pittsburgh

  24. Bob Says:

    1b candidates for the Sox
    1. Napoli is still an option.
    2. Mario Gomez
    3. Ortiz.
    4. Possibly Salty, though that hurts their catching depth.

  25. Raul Says:

    Happy 50th birthday to the great Edgar Martinez.

  26. Raul Says:

    To clarify…

    The Red Sox had Anthony Rizzo. Traded him to San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez. Traded Gonzalez and others in return for James Loney. And currently have no 1B.

    I hope Will Middlebrooks becomes Evan Longoria, for Boston’s sake.

  27. Raul Says:

    Also born today:

    Bill Madlock – 62
    David Cone – 50
    Greg Swindell – 48
    Royce Clayton – 43

  28. Raul Says:

    What’s funny is that Royce Clayton was brought in to replace Ozzie Smith.

    It was the right move at the time — Smith was already 41 years old.

    Smith obviously is better with the glove, but looking at Smith and Clayton’s careers from an OPS+ standpoint, Smith beats Clayton 87 to 78.

    Hard to think any player could be less valuable offensively than Ozzie was, but Clayton did his best to beat him in that regard.

  29. Raul Says:

    John is quite proud of Aaron Rodgers and his Packers.
    I’m sure he isn’t too happy that Aaron Rodgers was the most-sacked quarterback this season, going down 51 times.

  30. John Says:

    There have been times when he has held the ball too long, but that has way more to do with the depleted O-line and injuries to Jennings and Nelson than it does with Rodgers – who also led the league in passer rating, had 39 TD’s to 8 interceptions, and won the division despite a comically bad defense and ground game.

  31. Bob Says:

    So, who we got in the AL ROY chase?

    1. Myers?
    2. Bauer?
    3. Castellanos?

  32. Raul Says:

    Myers should be starting the season with Tampa, so he’s gotta be the front runner now.

    I think Castellanos will get overshadowed with Miggy and Fielder and won’t have as many chances to get the shiny numbers in Detroit.

    Bauer’s star has dimmed but in Cleveland…I suppose anything is possible.

  33. Bob Says:

    The son of Clippers owner Donald Sterling was found dead. 32 years old.

  34. Raul Says:

    Probably drugs.

  35. Bob Says:

    I believe it was.

  36. Chuck Says:

    The Clippers have won 15 straight..maybe it was shock.

  37. Raul Says:

    I think it was something like 17 games, Chuck.

    If they reach 20, half of Los Angeles will be hospitalized for shock.

  38. Raul Says:

    Well, that sure surprised me.
    I see that Florida is in the Sugar Bowl tonight. Their opponent? Louisville. I didn’t even know Louisville had a football team.

    I’m a young guy, but I remember back when college bowl games weren’t sponsored. The Allstate Sugar Bowl? The San Diego County Credit Union Poinsettia Bowl? What is this garbage?

  39. Raul Says:

    Buster Olney wrote a piece listing the ten best infields in the game.
    For comic relief, I’ll paste what he wrote for the #2 infield in baseball: The Detroit Tigers…

    “Let’s get this out of the way: The Tigers’ infield defense was the worst in the majors last season because of plays not made, and for a sinker-ball pitcher like Rick Porcello, the lack of range is a problem. But in the end, Detroit reached the World Series largely because of the offensive excellence of Miguel Cabrera, who had the first Triple Crown season in almost half a century, and Prince Fielder, who made a seamless transition in his first season in Detroit. Those two combined for 74 homers and 247 RBIs.

    “They’re the best 1-2 punch in the big leagues,” an AL general manager said recently. A very underrated part of what Cabrera and Fielder provide is their devotion to playing daily: They answer the bell, every day. Over the last seven seasons, Cabrera and Fielder have missed a total of 40 games. Omar Infante seemingly put a lot of pressure on himself after joining the Tigers in a midseason trade, before settling in and playing better down in the last weeks; he should be better this year.

    The X factor: Their shortstop situation. The Tigers exercised the 2013 option for Jhonny Peralta, who is steady but limited, especially on defense. But they demonstrated during the winter that they’re open to a possible upgrade, and it’ll be interesting to see if Peralta holds this position throughout the season, or if Detroit aggressively looks for an alternative during the year.”

  40. Raul Says:

    Maybe it’s just me, but when you’re debating “best infields in the game”, I tend to think defense is what you’re talking about.

  41. Chuck Says:

    So, in addition to being short, having a little dick, being ugly, and living in Baltimore, Olney also has a problem deciphering between “good” and “bad”.

    So, he’s up all night puking because of the Kung Pao Chicken at Don Luie’s Bamboo Palace, but tells you that’s the best place in Cleveland for Chinese food?

    What a douchebag.

    It’s hard to make Keith Law seem relevant, but Olney’s got it figured out.

  42. Raul Says:

    I can’t understand how writers like this get hired to ESPN.

    Look, I understand that with any big enterprise you are going to have some weak links. But it sure looks like the people at that network don’t even read what their writers are saying.

    If you’re running ESPN, you know you’re the major leagues of sports networks. No one is bigger than you are. Wouldn’t you have a thorough vetting process and continuous performance review of your writers? It should be impossible for an admitted liar (he made up his own rumors to get page views) and poor writer like Olney to keep his job there, let alone get hired in the first place.

    Dear lord, ESPN…have some integrity. No one is saying you’re the New York Times of sports, but come on.

    These guys had quality anchors and reporters like Bob Ley, Roy Firestone, Dick Schaap and Peter Gammons at one time. Now they’re pushing Buster Olney, Jim Bowden, Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith.

    Over 30 years the network grew to great heights but its content has sunk to new lows.

  43. John Says:

    Google Sarah Phillips. That’s worth a laugh.

  44. Chuck Says:

    One of the things I did the other day was unfollow a lot of these “insider” people.

    What’s the point of ESPN employing Keith Law?

    He lives 3000 miles from Bristol, he gets no air time, other than his two columns he doesn’t exist and really offers nothing to the public to justify what he’s being paid.

    It’s getting to the point where every conversation we have about a player or a team or something is a regurgitation of some kind.

    A guy living in Icepop, Montana hasn’t seen Jurickson Profar play, yet he acts like he’s his personal coach and rips everyone who doesn’t agree, and is probably some 13 year old Bleacher Report wannabe.

    That’s one reason why I got rid of everything, I’m tired of all these knuckleheads who’ve never left their basements acting like Baseball Jesus.

    Anonymity is a wonderful thing.

  45. Chuck Says:

    A week from today the internet will explode..half the population at least will be pissed at the HOF announcements.

  46. Lefty33 Says:

    “Now they’re pushing Buster Olney, Jim Bowden, Skip Bayless and Stephen A. Smith.”

    Not surprising when you think about it.

    It’s like cable news.

    CNN was the 800 pound gorilla in the room for years based upon their journalism but they have since been blown out of the water by the “personalities” and sensationalism on FOX and CNBC.

    ESPN radio is already losing out in certain markets to FOX Sports radio and no doubt ESPN is shitting their bed over it which is why they are moving towards more and more personalities as opposed to doing just doing hard journalism.

    Most males in the age range that ESPN is trying to reach to appease their advertisers don’t give a shit about an overly starched shirt like Bob Ley who while informative, is about as interesting to watch as a piece of drywall.

    It’s why ESPN puts Mike and Mike on in the morning and FOX for their late night show has on the ever effervescent Rob Dibble doing “Nasty Boy Radio”.

    Personalities sell, just telling the facts and being informative is dead.

  47. Chuck Says:

    “Reality Radio”

  48. Raul Says:

    You’re right, Lefty.
    But I don’t have to like it, lol.

  49. Chuck Says:

    The Brewers are honoring the 1987 team at fantasy camp..looking at the roster I can’t figure out how that team won 91 games.

  50. Lefty33 Says:

    I don’t like it either but it’s the ghetto that media companies have chosen to go.

    Find the LCD and the problem is that most people are more then content to follow.

    To quote Don Henley:

    “Welcome to the land of flame and fizz
    Where you will learn that packaging is all that heaven is”

  51. Raul Says:

    well said

  52. Lefty33 Says:

    That ‘87 team could hit but damn there were some brutally bad names on that pitching staff.

  53. Bob Says:

    That is why the eagle is our national bird.

  54. Chuck Says:

    BILLY JOE ROBIDOUX!!!!!!!!!

  55. Bob Says:

    The Rangers signed Jason Frasor. Eli Whiteside was let go to make room for Frasor.

  56. Len Says:

    Those Brewer pitchers always suffered because old Milwaukee county stadium was a good hitter’s park and the 80’s Brewers tended to have some terrible fielding teams.

    Kind of shocking though that they won 91 games, I totally forgot about that.

    They won 91 basically because Molitor had that huge bounce back season: .353/.438/.566. And Higuera won 18 with 240 k’s and a 119 era+. They probably don’t even win 80 games without those two.

    Yount couldn’t really field in CF but he still hit .312/.384/.479.

    They got a lot of production from their catching position. B.J. Surhoff put up a .299/.350/.422 and Bill Schroeder put up a .332/.379/.548

    Pleasac and Crimm gave them some good production out of the bullpen.

    Wegman deserved better than a 12-11 record. His pitching style of low walks putting the ball in play didn’t really fit in well with a poor fielding american league team playing in a hitter’s park.

  57. Chuck Says:

    I wouldn’t go as far as saying Yount “couldn’t field”.

    He wasn’t Devon White, but he didn’t suck either.

  58. Raul Says:

    LAWRENCEVILLE, Ga. — The wife of former Atlanta Braves star Andruw Jones has filed for divorce about a week after she accused him of grabbing her neck and saying he wanted to kill her.

    A divorce complaint filed Monday by Nicole Jones in a suburban Atlanta court says their 10-year marriage is “irretrievably broken.”

    According to a Gwinnett County police report, the pair had a fight around 1:30 a.m. Christmas Day after Nicole Jones asked her husband to help prepare their home for the morning. She told police Andruw Jones dragged her down a staircase, grabbed her neck and said he wanted to kill her.

    Nicole Jones’ lawyer, John Mayoue, declined to comment Wednesday. It was not immediately clear whether Andruw Jones had a lawyer.

  59. Chuck Says:

    Jones must be preparing himself to play in Japan.

    You know, no steriod testing.

  60. John Says:

    The 1987 Brewers team got off to a 13-0 start, hence the reason for the celebration. They regressed pretty hard after that, going 78-71 over their remaining games.

    The team was worth 2.8 wins above average, and only out-scored their opponents by 45 runs. So yeah, they were more like an 84-85 win team that over-achieved.

    They were, however, one of four teams in the AL East that was better than the AL West champion Twins – who would go on to win the World Series despite being outscored by 20 runs and going 29-52 on the road.

  61. Bob Says:

    3-31-13 Astros vs. Rangers to kick off the season.

  62. Raul Says:

    I forgot that the Astros have to come up with a DH now

  63. Len Says:

    @John,

    Yeah, If the ‘87 Twins were in the current configuration of the A.L. or the 1994-1997 version, they wouldn’t have even made the playoffs. That’s really odd in that more playoff spots ironically would have knocked the Twins out of the playoffs.

    You would have had the Jays winning the East with the Tigers winning the Central and the A’s winning the West. The Brewers would have been the first wild card team and the Yankees would have been the second.

    I remember the A.L. used to have a lot of odd East West splits back in the 70’s & 80’s. And then in general you had teams that won 95+ games not making the playoffs.

    The ‘84 Royals would have been a 6th place team in the East that year. The ‘85 WS champion Royals would have been a 3rd place team in the East.

    The Orioles won 100 games in ‘80 and didn’t even make the playoffs.

    The ‘79 Angels would have been a 5th place team in the East.

    The ‘78 Eastern division had 4 (90+ win teams). The ‘78 Royals would have been a 4rth place team in the East that year.

    The Brewers were in the wrong division at the wrong time. The Brewers have only had 7 (90+ win teams) in their history and 4 of them, ‘78, ‘79, ‘87, and ‘92 didn’t make the playoffs.

    The thing I remember about that 1987 Brewers teams was how awesome Molitor was during that late summer into September. This was back in the day when you basically only saw weekly highlights on ESPN or This week in baseball and it seemed like Molitor was on the highlight reel every week. He had a 39 game hit streak and then he hit:

    .415/.472/.708-July
    .381/.479/.602-August
    .331/.430/.535-September

    He was such a big time young ball player during the late 70’s-early 80’s, then he just kind of disappeared during the mid 80’s with a bunch of injuries. That ‘87 was an amazing comeback which lasted basically until 1996.

  64. Cameron Says:

    The Astros can barely come up with a hitter. If they want a DESIGNATED hitter, they’re fucked.

    …By the way, hi. Sorry if I was MIA for a while. Got my gallbladder taken out and I’ve been bedridden and ripped on percocet for the last week.

  65. Mike Felber Says:

    Very good show John.

    While there will continue to be a parade of some ugliness re: homophobia, the tide has permanently turned, & sports will be dragged along. The tolerance for gays & condemnation of bigotry has changes substantially in not too many years. For the last couple the majority of the population countenances gay marriage, & while fundamentalism will always be a force, the younger generations are leading the cause towards this decency. This is a worldwide trend. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

    Now the Clemente story Chuck long alluded to is out.

    Gallbladder out Cameron? What in the world happened?!

  66. Cameron Says:

    Gallstone. Very, very large gallstone.

  67. Chuck Says:

    Well, all the years of high cholesterol/fatty foods caught up to you.

    What are you..21-22, and you have gallstones?

    Now’s probably as good a time as any to try a vegan diet for awhile.

  68. Cameron Says:

    Not vegan, but my diet is looking better since the surgery, believe me. Actually cooking now.

  69. Chuck Says:

    Green vegetables, spinach and broccoli especially, are good for cleaning out your organs, specifically the gallbladder and liver. Cholesterol and fat deposits are what causes stones to begin with.

    I’m not saying you should be vegan 100%, that’s actually almost as dangerous, but it’s good to do for a couple of weeks two or three times a year as a cleansing.

  70. Cameron Says:

    Well, the main problem is I have to also contribute to cooking for other people in the house (group home and all), so… I have to balance my needs with what everyone else eats, and I think I’m the only one in the house who’s eaten a damn vegetable.

    Still, I’m doing a fair amount of cooking. Cutting a lot of butter out of the cooking, cooking with low-fat milk, substituting higher fat meats for lean meat and using a lot of chicken to boot, watching the fat content in general. …And just for good measure, cutting salt too. I know that’s unrelated, but the salt was kicking my ass too. It’s been treating me pretty good so far.

  71. Chuck Says:

    “substituting higher fat meats for lean meat”

    Other way around?

    Nature’s preservative is salt…most refined foods are very high in sodium, the preservatives are mostly salt based, so there’s really no need to add salt to anything that isn’t fresh.

  72. Chuck Says:

    Clarify unsalted butter…I keep some around all the time.

  73. Bob Says:

    This is Dale Mrrphy’s last year on the ballot.

  74. Chuck Says:

    Hello, Veteran’s Committee.

  75. Cameron Says:

    I feel kinda bad about Dale Murphy not getting in. One of the best players of the 80s… But that just kinda highlights what a shit decade the 80s were for baseball.

    Also, remember those horrid experiments about cooking a stir fry from last year? I can now cook restaurant-grade lo mein. Talk about a turnaround.

  76. Chuck Says:

    Do you make your own noodles?

  77. Cameron Says:

    Can’t afford to on my budget, but I could. The main thing that made everyone excited was the sauce I use. That’s always been my secret weapon in cooking, I’m a master of sauces. It’s been a natural gift.

  78. Chuck Says:

    Making them is cheaper than buying them.

  79. Chuck Says:

    So, apparently there was an argument between Keith Law and some of his “fans” on Twitter on Tuesday about the proper way to roast broccoli.

    I know this because someone retweeted it to me. Someone I follow retweeted Keith Law’s recipe for roasted broccoli.

    I no longer follow the person.

    I can’t make this shit up.

  80. Bob Says:

    Broccoli is tasty.

  81. Chuck Says:

    Maybe you and Law could open up a Broccoli Bar.

    Broccoli Martini’s, Broccoli Burgers, Broccoli Shakes, you could start a band called “Broccoli Bob and the Cabbage Patch Kids”.

    I’d go.

  82. Bob Says:

    Sounds like a worthwhile project. Though I recall what Lisa Simpson ( a broccoli lover) said about it.

    “You know what sucks as a pizza topping? Broccoli!!!

  83. Chuck Says:

    I like broccoli on pizza..wouldn’t put it on nachos though.

  84. Raul Says:

    Lol @ broccoli. A new low.

  85. Bob Says:

    Javier Vasquez had scouts from the Red Sox, Nationals Rays and Royals watchimg him practice yesterday.

  86. Chuck Says:

    Javier Vazquez wants to come out of retirement..at 36.

    The Cubs signed the “retired” Dontrelle Willis yesterday.

    The Rockies are among “three or four” teams interested in working out Brandon Webb.

    Yep, ML pitching is in good shape.

  87. Cameron Says:

    Remember Ben Sheets? How old is he, like, 33?

  88. Bob Says:

    Not sure. But he has a gold medal.

  89. Len Says:

    @Cameron,

    What makes you think the 80’s were a shit decade? A lot of different teams were competitive, Small Market teams like the Royals and A’s were strong and won WS championships. You had one of the greatest post seasons in MLB history in 1986. Brett almost hit .400. The Kirk Gibson HR, O. Smith HR. The ‘82, 85-87 World Series. Will Clark’s ‘89 NLCS. Fernando mania. R. Henderson breaks SB record. Rose breaks hit record. D. Gooden’s ‘85 season. Pine tar game. Clemens 20 k game. You had a wide variety of styles of play be successful during the decade.

    There were a bunch of great players during that decade: C: Carter, Parish, & Fisk. 1B: Murray, Hernandez, and Mattingly. 2B: Sandberg & Whitaker 3B: Boggs, Schmidt & Brett, SS: Ripken, O. Smith, Yount, & Trammell LF: Henderson, Raines. CF: Murphy & Dawson, RF: Dw. Evans & T. Gwynn. Then you have guys like P. Guerrero and Molitor as utility players.

    That group could compete against any other decade.

    For whatever reason, starting pitching was the problem during the 1980’s. D. Steib was the best pitcher during the decade but never got any kind of run support so he’s been very underrated. Then the bulk of the great pitchers came mid-decade: Clemens, Saberhagen, Hershiser, Gooden & Langston. Then you had the great pitchers of the 60’s-70’s ending their careers: Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Jenkins, Perry, Niekro and Blyleven.

  90. Cameron Says:

    Every decade has its moments, but I’m first and foremost a pitching nut, and the best pitcher of the 80s was Jack Morris. That says all you need to know about my opinion of the 80s. Everything was juiced. The balls, the players, and the level of suck on the mound. Put them against the guys from 10, 20 years before that, it’d balance and fast.

  91. John Says:

    “the best pitcher of the 80s was Jack Morris”

    A popular myth around this time of year.

    Jack Morris was not even close to the best pitcher of that decade. He simply had the most wins, much like Andy Pettitte from the 2000’s.

  92. Bob Says:

    Cameron, study Bert Blyeven.

  93. Bob Says:

    The Rangers signed Lance Berkman.

  94. Len Says:

    @Cameron,

    Well Morris being considered the “best” pitcher of the ’80’s is based on a stupid baseball writer fallacy that the pitcher with the most “wins” during a decade is also the best pitcher of that decade. That would be like saying Mark Grace is the greatest hitter of the 1990’s because he had the most hits during the decade. Morris was probably something like the 10th best pitcher of that decade. D. Steib was the best pitcher of the 1980’s but his W/l record doesn’t reflect that because he received mostly lousy run support during his peak years.

    The 1980’s was odd decade in that the bulk of the decades best pitchers all came to the majors mid-decade.

    The balls were juiced in ‘87 but ‘88 & ‘89 were some of lowest run scoring environments in MLB history. I don’t see anything about run scoring that the balls were juiced from 1980-1986.

    I think a roster of the best seasons of the 1980’s could compete against any decade:

    C-’82 Carter, ‘84 Carter
    1B-’89 W. Clark, ‘86 Mattingly
    2B-’84 Sandberg, ‘89 Sandberg
    SS-’82 Yount, ‘84 Ripken
    3B-’80 Brett, ‘80 Schmidt
    Lf-’80 Henderson, ‘89 Mitchell
    Cf-’85 Henderson, ‘85 Mcgee
    Rf-’87 Gwynn, “87 Murphy
    Dh- ‘87 Molitor, ‘82 McRae

    SP-’85 Gooden, ‘80 Carlton, ‘89 Saberhagen, ‘86 Clemmens, ‘87 Clemmens.
    RP-’83 Quisenberry, ‘80 Corbett, ‘84 W. Hernandez

    The 1980’s are also at a disadvantage when comparing them to other decades because of the strike of ‘81.

  95. John Says:

    What about the 1950’s?

    C – Berra’56, Campanella’53
    1B – Kluszewski’51, Musial’50
    2B – Robinson’51, Robinson’52
    3B – Rosen’53, Matthews’53
    SS – Banks’59, Banks’58
    LF – Williams’57, Musial’51
    CF – Mantle’56, Mays’54
    RF – Aaron’59, Kaline’55
    DH – Snider’55, Kiner’51

    SP – Roberts’53,Roberts’54,Roberts’52,Shantz’52,Spahn’53,
    RP – Konstanty’50, Kinder’53, Hind’58

    To Cameron’s point, less talented players can put up good numbers if they’re playing less talented competition.

  96. John Says:

    Also to Cameron’s point, among the people putting up great seasons in the 1980’s, only 9 of the position players and 2 of the pitchers are HOFers.

    From the 1950’s, everyone except the relievers, Shantsz, and Rosen is in the HOF, and you can make a good case that 5 of the top 10 players of all-time are in that group.

  97. Chuck Says:

    Baseball sucked in general from maybe 1979 to the mid-nineties..that’s why the commissioner’s office turned a blind eye to steriods.

    Astroturf..cookie cutter stadiums..closers..those sorry-ass looking doubleknit uniforms..punch and judy hitters like Omar Moreno and Vince Coleman…strikes and lock-outs.

    Everyone jumped on the longball wagon in 1998 as a way to forget the previous 20 years.

  98. John Says:

    Can’t argue with the stadiums/turf.

    It must have sucked to be an NL fan in those days.

    4 completely identical stadiums (Vet, 3RS, RFS, BF). 1 more except with a dome (astrodome). Another like the first four, except with grass (AFCS). Another stadium under an air pattern (Shea). And by far the ugliest stadium ever conceived (Olympic Stadium). 2 more that were mainly for football (JMS, Candlestick).

    So that leaves Dodger Stadium and Wrigley.

  99. Len Says:

    @John,

    Well, you created a bit of a straw-man argument. I never said nor was the point, the best team of the 80’s was better than the best team of the 1950’s.

    Cameron originally said that the 1980’s was a “shit” decade because Dale Murphy was one of the best players from that decade and he’s not going to the HOF. It’s a fallacy because you can make that argument about every decade since the 1940’s. Bob Elliot, Charlie Keller, Vern Stephens, Dixie Walker, and Dizzie Trout were among the best players of the 40’s and they’re not in the HOF. Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Don Newcome, Gil Hodges and Gil Mcdougald were among the best players of the 1950’s and they’re not in the HOF. Norm Cash, Vada Pinson, Frank Howard, Maury Wills, Curt Flood and Johnny Callison were among the best players of the 1960’s and they’re not in the HOF. Bobby Bonds, Graig Nettles, Amos Otis, Sal Bando, and Thurman Munson were among the best players of the 1970’s and they’re not in the HOF. Albert Belle, John Olerud, Chuck Knoblauch, Matt Williams and David Cone were among the best players of the 90’s and they were all one and done.

    I could also add Boggs ‘85 as a DH or Brett ‘85.

    As far as your HOF point, the 1950’s team has a 30 year advantage for one and the Veterans Committee has been mostly inactive since 2001. The HOF voters were also much more lenient about voting in players from pre 1961. For whatever reason the standards are much more difficult for post expansion players.

    Steven Jay Gould wrote an interesting book back in the 1990’s on the subject of why there are no .400 hitters anymore. Basically he said that as things evolve say baseball in this situation, the talent tends to evolve and balance out as well. There were more extremes during early portions of baseball history. So for example you have that amazing outfield of the 1950’s. Although the 1950’s starters are better than the 1980’s starters, I would imagine there’s more depth in the 1980’s teams so the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th best are probably better overall.

    I think the individual pitching seasons in the 80’s have the edge against the ’50’s.

    There’s also a bias of when you were born. If you were born in the 60’s-70’s you probably like the 80’s because that’s when you started following the game and you were more impressionable. If you were born in the 40’s-50’s you probably like it less because of you age. If you were born in the 80’s or 90’s you probably don’t really care because you have little to no memory of the decade.

    Chuck alluded to many problems of the decade: Cookie cutter stadiums, double-knit uniforms, astro turf, strikes, collusion, Omar Moreno & Vince Coleman type players. They had a lot of the same exact things in the 70’s yet the 80’s seem to bear the brunt of worst things for some reason.

    The one thing I really liked about the 80’s was the different styles in which teams could play and win. The Cardinals did it with speed and defense and some pitching. The Brewers did it with Power. The ‘88 Dodgers did it with a mediocre team yet two players had career years. The Royals did it with pitching and George Brett. The Mets did it with offense, pitching, The Red Sox did it with offense and Clemmens. Teams played in domed astro turf stadiums and old stadiums like Fenway, Comisky, Wrigley, Tiger stadium.

    No team repeated. Small markets like KC and Oakland won the WS.

  100. Chuck Says:

    John’s 50’s team would wipe the floor with your ’80’s team Len.

    You don’t have much of an argument on the “80’s over ’50’s” thing.

    When the DH came in in 1973, it wasn’t a “planned” position like now. You had guys like Willie McCovey and Orlando Cepeda grabbing a couple extra years on their pensions.

    You also had four rounds (and ten teams) of expansion in a 15 year period, which really impacted talent levels from the mid seventies on.

    The first two rounds didn’t have much effect because teams were loaded with stars then, look at the team records.

    When turf came in and teams started going to the chop and speed guys, talent really went down. Legitimate major league guys stalled in the minors because they couldn’t run or bunt. Do you really think Omar Moreno could play today?

    Most speed guys can only run..they’re not big enough to hit for power and they’re usually pretty small/thin guys, so they can’t throw either and were usually injury prone.

    Baseball in the late seventies, early to mid eighties was painful to watch.

  101. Lefty33 Says:

    “Small markets like KC and Oakland won the WS.”

    Hate to break it to you Len but there were no such thing as big and small market teams back during this time frame because the revenue streams then were not anywhere near as extreme as they are now.

    In ‘89 when Oakland won the WS they were 8th in MLB in payroll and 6th in the AL.

    In ‘90 when they got swept in the WS they were 5th in the AL in payroll and spent over 20% more than they did in ‘89.

    It was all about Walter Haas being committed to winning where as Schott and Wolff since then have tried to win by being “smart” and that will never win a WS when teams can spend whatever they want against them.

    Speaking of ‘89 and ‘90, wanna guess who led MLB in payroll in those two years?

    The Dodgers? The Angels? The Yankees?

    Nope.

    It was The Royals.

    “No team repeated.”

    True, but like most decades a handful of teams were always hanging around at different times where as some teams never came even close. Oakland made two WS trips, the Phillies made two, the Dodgers made two, the Cardinals made three, and the Royals made two.

    “There’s also a bias of when you were born. If you were born in the 60’s-70’s you probably like the 80’s because that’s when you started following the game and you were more impressionable.”

    If you’re a complete ignorant dumb fuck then I suppose that’s true, but if you have any kind of brain power and any ability to form a contextually accurate opinion then you would see that your statement is 100% not true.

    The late ’70s and ’80s were a turd time to watch, play, or follow baseball for all the reasons mentioned. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact.

  102. Lefty33 Says:

    “The ‘88 Dodgers did it with a mediocre team yet two players had career years.”

    Mediocre team?

    Hershisher has a career year.
    Belcher and Leary along with him made for a fantastic 1,2,3.
    Combine that with a bullpen where all five guys had an ERA under 3.14 and you’ve got why they did what they did that year, it’s called great pitching.

  103. Len Says:

    @Lefty 33,

    You’re mixing up the terms market size and payroll as identical terms. I never said “small payroll teams” I said “small market teams.” Kansas City was in a small t.v. market in the 80’s and it’s still in a small market in 2012. The difference was that television market size was much less a determining factor of team payroll back in the 80’s.

    What reasons were mentioned as to why this was a “turd” time to watch baseball other than opinion?? I don’t know why you have to get so pissed off?? Mike Schmidt wasn’t a great player? George Brett, Steve Carlton weren’t great players and fun to watch? etc?

    As far as the ‘88 Dodgers, like I said, it was a mediocre team with two players (Hershiser & Gibson) having career years. Take Hershiser Gibson out of that team and they’re a .500 team.

    They had Alfredo Griffin playing short hitting .199. Franklin Stubbs played 1b hit .223 with 8 hr. Gibson hit .290 and was the only regular above .278. That might be one of the worst lineups to ever when a World Series. It’s even more shocking that they did it with only 1 at bat from Gibson.

    Belcher and Leary weren’t great. You have to put those regular season era’s into the context of Dodger Stadium during one of the lowest run scoring seasons since the dead ball era.

    And Belcher was horrible in the WS. He had a 6.23 era and a 1.84 whip and was bailed out by Gibson’s HR and Jay Howell in game 4.

    They won that WS because Hershiser pitched to a 1.00 era and a .722 whip in 18 innings. Then you can add that crazy display by Mickey Hatcher, career .690 ops hitter who put up a 1.137 ops in the series.

  104. Cameron Says:

    For the record, I was born in the 90s, so my baseball window is from the late 90s through now. Do I think it’s the best of all time? No. It’s an interesting window and I’m curious to see which way the game goes from here and there’s been some truly incredible players. Ask me for the greatest 20 years, though, I’d say… ‘57-’77.

  105. Len Says:

    @Chuck,

    Well I never said anything about the best 80’s team beating or being better than the best 50’s team, that was John creating a Straw-man argument.

    Those are hypotheticals that you can’t prove either way. The 50’s outfield (Williams, Mantle, Aaron) with Mays at DH has 4 of the top 10 players in MLB history so that lineup might beat every decade, 00’s 10’s, 20’s, 30’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s 90’s 00’s. The 80’s staff is better than the 50’s staff.

    The 50’s team had tremendous power, the 80’s team relies more on high batting avg/on base percentage and speed.

  106. Len Says:

    @Cameron,

    That’s too bad you are a Royals fan born in the 90’s. You would have loved those Royals teams of the late 70’s-mid 80’s. If you love pitching you would have really loved the 1985 team because that was basically a great pitching staff & Quiz with George Brett having an awesome year. I got really into the 1989 Royals for some reason and they were really fun to watch. Saberhagen was awesome that year and then they had Flash Gordon as a rookie. Bob Boone had a decent season at the end of his career. Bo Jackson finally came into his own. They had a great combination of young players and veterans. Then everything fell apart in 1990. It’s hard to imagine now but they made a relief pitcher, Mark Davis the highest paid player in the game. It didn’t make any sense anyway because they already had Farr and Montgomery and didn’t need another relief pitcher.

    I don’t know but it’s a real shame what happened to the Royals in the 1990’s-2000’s.

  107. Lefty33 Says:

    “I don’t know why you have to get so pissed off??”

    Pissed off? Not at all.

    Calling BS on your inane argument? Yep.

    “As far as the ‘88 Dodgers, like I said, it was a mediocre team with two players (Hershiser & Gibson) having career years.”

    Who cares what you said because it’s not even close to reality.

    They had the 2nd lowest ERA, the 3rd best ERA+, 3rd best WHIP, 4th most K’s while allowing the 3rd fewest hits in the sport.

    That’s not exactly “mediocre”.

  108. Len Says:

    @Lefty,

    “Pissed off? Not at all.” You indirectly called me an ignorant dumb fuck?

    “Inane argument” Why would anyone born in the 1970’s have a bias towards 1940’s or 1950’s baseball when they weren’t even alive? If you’re born in the 1970’s and you like baseball then you’re going to have an affinity towards 1980’s baseball because those were your formative years. If you thought 1980’s baseball sucked ass when you were 6-14 years old then you wouldn’t be a baseball fan, you would have gotten into basketball or football or some other sport.

    I said the ‘88 Dodgers were a mediocre “team” not mediocre pitching staff. That offense was league average in runs scored, finished 3rd to last in ops, below league average in HR. Go back and look at that lineup.

    Even with the best pitcher in baseball leading the league in innings pitched with 267, and pitching in the best pitcher’s park in baseball they only led in one statistical category, HR/9. They were 2nd ERA, 4th in Whip, 3rd in K’s and 3rd in K/BB. Leary & Belcher were decent but Fernando was horrible that year and Sutton was shot at 43 years old. They got John Tudor in a trade in late August which helped at the end.

    The Bullpen was good

    Their fielding was about league average.

    Again, take away Hershiser and Gibson and that’s a .500 team and the Reds win the west that year. And the only way they win the WS is Hershiser’s unbelievable performance.

  109. Raul Says:

    So…are you really arguing the 1980s was a good baseball decade?

  110. Raul Says:

    Wait. While you’re at it, can you also make the argument that music and movies were better in the 80s too? I just wanna laugh a bit harder.

  111. Chuck Says:

    The ‘75-’80 Royals was one of the best teams ever, and the ‘76-’78 Royals/Yanks ALCS were three of the best postseason series of all time..in any sport.

    I played in one of those celebrity golf tournaments with Larry Gura once, and was so excited to talk to him about it I couldn’t hit the fucking ball for an hour.

  112. Chuck Says:

    The ’80’s sucked in everything.

    Seriously, they should just wipe the decade from the history books.

    You know what I think of when I hear the ’80’s?

    Remember when Eddie Murphy first got to California in Beverly Hills cop, and he’s walking down the sidewalk and passes the two guys wearing the leather jumpsuits?

    That, and Billy Ray Cyrus’ mullet.

  113. Cameron Says:

    Not to nitpick, but Billy Ray came around in 1992.

    And for the record, I like most other stuff about the 80s. Huge weakness for hair metal, got a good bunch of movies I like, it had some GREAT basketball (I could watch game archives from the 80s for hours, I swear), but not a good period for baseball.

  114. Len Says:

    @Raul,

    Yeah, because 1990’s and 2000’s baseball was so much better when players made a mockery of the game and every minutia of the baseball experience was callously commercialized.

    I forgot about the nobility of the 1990’s-2000’s.

    Things like Maris’ HR record being broken 6 times in 4 years brought so much honor to the game.

    Things like Brett Boone averaging .255 14 hr and 60 rbi for years and then suddenly at age 32 hitting .331, 37 hr, and 141 rbi added so much character to the game.

    Things like Jay Bell averaging 10 hr, and 48 rbi and then hitting 38 hr, 112 rbi at age 33 really brought integrity back to the game.

    Brady Anderson brought so much dignity and class to the game when he suddenly went from averaging 9 HR, 43 Rbi, to 50 HR and 110 rbi in a single season. What a display of courage and determination.

    Things like the 50+ HR mark surpassed 18 times from 1995-2002 when there were only (18) 50+ HR seasons from 1876-1993 really showed the greatness and character of that era.

    Baseball games averaging four hours in length were so pleasant to watch.

  115. Len Says:

    Billy Ray Cyrus was a 90’s product as Cameron alluded.

  116. Len Says:

    @Raul,

    Yeah, they didn’t release Ragging Bull, Empire Strikes Back or Raiders of the Lost Arc in the 80’s? Or Die Hard, Ordinary People or Aliens either? I forget what decade The Terminator, Back To The Future or Ghandi came out? Reds, Scarface and Amadeus must have come out in the 90’s. Platoon, E.T. And Once Upon a Time in America must have come out some other decade. Full Metal Jacket, Spinal Tap, and Witness? Missing, Blade Runner, and Born on the Fourth of July? The Verdict, Atlantic City & the Elephant Man? How about Wall St. Airplane, and The Right Stuff? Do the Right Thing, The Killing Fields, Terms of Endearment? Silkwood, Tender Mercies, The Color Purple?

  117. Chuck Says:

    You’re right, Cam.

    The NBA in the ’70’s was like MLB in the ’80’s, it was a time of adjustments..new rules, the ABA merger, retirement of big stars at the same time, etc.

    I’ve heard the argument the Bird/Magic rivalry saved the NBA, and you could take that one step further..coming out at the same time saved the NBA.

    If they had come out two years apart, or if Magic went to Seattle instead of LA, or Bird in Cleveland, things would have been much different…both then and now.

  118. Chuck Says:

    So, what started as a pointless debate has become even less so in less than a dozen comments…all without Felber’s help.

    Yep, the internet sucks.

    Off to watch football…later, dudes.

  119. Cameron Says:

    Shit, game’s on? Later y’all.

    PS, Chiefs signed Andy Reid to be the new coach and I’ve heard a few Donovan McNabb comparisons to likely draft pick Geno Smith. …I LIKE those odds.

  120. Raul Says:

    I could be wrong, but I never said a word about the 1990s or 2000s in that 80s comment about baseball.
    Speaking of straw men…

  121. Raul Says:

    I’m a 60s and 70s movie guy.

    So if you want to compare Back to the Future to Taxi Driver and Vivre Sa Vie, be my fucking guest.

  122. John Says:

    I like ’80’s *comedies.* I’m not sure what the entire rest of pop culture was smoki-oh, right. Snorting.

  123. Raul Says:

    I enjoy the occasional Big Trouble in Little China and Revenge of the Nerds, but let’s not kid ourselves here.

  124. Raul Says:

    I’m still shocked over that convo with Jon Heyman last night on Twitter.

    The guy said he didn’t even remember saying the KC/Tampa trade was a good one. Holy shit, man. I might not remember my exact words from some conversation months or weeks ago. But I’d remember if I said the dumbest trade in 20 years was a good trade.

  125. Raul Says:

    Oh man. This one hurts my heart a little bit. My dear Tim Kurkjian…I love ya, Tim…but you went over to the dark side. Craig Biggio belongs in the HOF?

    Sigh.

  126. Bob Says:

    1. The Simpsoms
    2. The Breakfast Club
    3. Fast Times at Ridgemont High
    4. Seinfeld
    5. Cheers

  127. John Says:

    Seinfeld ran for the duration of the ’90’s, Simpsons started in 1989.

  128. Bob Says:

    The Tracy Ullman show started in 1987.
    I know Seinfeld started in 1989. Still the decade gets the credit.

  129. Chuck Says:

    #124..

    I saw that…where the hell did that come from?

  130. Len Says:

    @Raul,

    Well, talk about a Straw-man, I never compared Back to the Future to Taxi Driver. I’m more of a fan of 60’s-70’s movies like you but there were still some great films made in the 80’s.

    My point wasn’t to defend the 80’s and I never said that 80’s baseball was the greatest decade in baseball history. I really just commented on Cameron’s faulty logic on his Dale Murphy Post and John went off on a tangent about 1950’s baseball. I started really following baseball in the 80’s so that’s why I’m fond of it. I’ll take that decade of baseball over the travesty that was ’90’s & 2000’s baseball any day.

    All the criticisms I’ve read about decade can be applied to the 70’s and really started in the 70’s: Astro turf cookie cutter ballparks all came out of the 1970’s and multi purpose stadiums started in the 1960’s. The double knit over the top uniforms came from the 70’s. and the more garish version came from the 70’s. There was actually more of a change towards more traditional uniforms in 1987. The punch and Judy one dimensional hitters came out of the 70’s. Free Agency & the DH came out of the 70’s. Major use of relief pitching came out of the 70’s. I really see the 70’s-80’s as quite similar. The only difference I see is that teams went on longer runs of success in the 70’s: A’s, Reds, Yankees, Pirates, Orioles. Dodgers, Royals, Phillies. Free Agency probably had something to do with that. There was also worse labor troubles in the 80s.

    I usually think of 1969-1992 as one long era in baseball.

  131. Chuck Says:

    have never seen the Simpsons.

    Fast Times and BC were good movies..then, but are unwatchable now.

    Seinfeld sucked..sorry. Ranks right up there as one of the most overrated shows ever.

    Cheers was good pre-Kirstie Alley coming and Woody Harrelson leaving.

    Besides, I LIVED that show for seven years, last thing I want to do is go home and watch something I just watched for 12 hours.

  132. Chuck Says:

    “I usually think of 1969-1992 as one long era in baseball.”

    While I can see that argument, I still think it’s a bit of a stretch.

    Baseball in 1970 was much different than in 1990.

  133. Bob Says:

    THe DH started in the 1970’s

  134. Bob Says:

    Sorry Len. You get the dh credit. Sans my rading glasses right now. Sorry

  135. Raul Says:

    Touche @ strawman between Taxi Driver and Back to the Future @ Len.

    Chuck, Heyman got fed up with me last night. Suggested my friend Jordan and I “find someone else to obsess about” after my friend Jordan asked him about his MVP vote for a closer.

    I just about cracked up for ten good minutes

  136. Bob Says:

    The hockey lockout is over. Which means I will be able to watch more hockey than basketball this year.

  137. Raul Says:

    Thank goodness. I was getting tired of reading about how shitty the Lakers are every day. Now I can read about how shitty the Islanders are.

  138. Bob Says:

    Who wins? Alabama or Notre Dame. 28-17 Alabama

  139. Raul Says:

    Bama.
    By mucho puntos.

  140. Chuck Says:

    “Suggested my friend Jordan and I “find someone else to obsess about” after my friend Jordan asked him about his MVP vote for a closer.”

    Typical..when you say something stupid and get called out on it and find yourself in a corner, the best way to save your own ass is turn the tables on your accuser.

    We invented that here with all the Tim Raines HOF shit.

    “Tim Raines is a HOFer because he walked a lot and stole a lot of bases”.

    “That’s not enough”

    “Well, he’s better than Jim Rice”

  141. Chuck Says:

    Hockey in Brooklyn.

    That’s almost as funny as hockey in Miami.

    How would you like to be an Islander’s intern and you have to do sales calls in Bed-Stuy?

    “Hockey, what the fuck you talkin’ ’bout, Willis?”

    I wouldn’t DRIVE in that neighborhood, much less get out of the car.

  142. Len Says:

    @Chuck,

    Yeah I think of 1969 because of the divisional realignment and the playoffs as a demarcation line but it might be later
    maybe 1973 or 1977.

    Mabye 1973, Because by then you had the DH, all the turf fields, the double-knit pull-over uniforms, the long hair etc, Relief pitchers became very important.

    Maybe 1977 is the demarcation line because by then you had free agency, expansion in the A.L., stolen bases became more important.

    I’m not sure when teams started using the 5 man rotations.

    I remember things staying the same until 1987 when all of a sudden everybody started hitting HR and everybody believed they used a livelier ball. Then things changed again in 1988 when the expanded the strike zone and only 5 guys hit over .300 in the N.L. and Tony Gwynn led the league with a .312 and ‘88-89 was a little mini dead ball era. Things seemed to be getting more offensive by ‘92 and then offense went up in ‘93 and then everything seemed to explode in ‘94.

    The other change I remember was when La Russa started using 1 inning relief pitchers (closer) around the late 80’s.

    And then in 1987, Rawlings became the official outfitter for all the teams in MLB except the Yankees home jersey. Many teams decided to change their uniforms and many teams reverted to more traditional looks with buttoned up jerseys with white for home and gray for away. I think all the powder blue away jerseys were switched to gray by ‘92. I think The Royals and the Expos were the last holdouts in the early 90’s. and I think everybody wore a buttoned up jerseys by ‘93 with the Reds the last hold outs bringing back the vests of the 1960’s.

    There were so many changes from ‘69-77 that it’s hard to get a clean line of demarcation. I would say the baseball they played in ‘77 was basically the same they played throughout the ’80’s. I think the only things that changed as time went on were Relief pitcher work loads, Stolen base attempts, and uniforms by the late 80’s were reverting to more classic styles. You would know better because you were around back then and you had better feel for the changes. Then you had Camden Yards in ‘92 which brought about the whole retro ballpark revival.

  143. Mike Felber Says:

    Williams should Dh amongst Mays Mantle & Aaron since he was the weakest in the field. The players were not juiced in until the late 80’s & more from the ’90’s through early aughts.

    Seinfeld was great, writing & performances, it was no trendy thing. Though someone who never watched The Simpsons is…unusual.

    Bed Stuy has changed tremendously. It has been largely defanged, & white people stopped being so afraid of it & many loved in. Now they are in the some are being priced out gentrification stage.

    Len, you are right on with the great Gould argument, though Chuck is correct that expansion can launch mini-setbacks of that trend.

    Anyone believing Morris was near the best pitcher of the 80’s has not followed things closely here. A 105 ERA + WITH a great infield, & actually 3.80 in the post season, about sums it up.

    Chuck YOU keep bringing up Raines over the years, then coyly profess how sick you are about others obsessing over it. Clearly it is bait so you can complain about the issue. For the record, i saw nobody here make the argument that Raines was qualified because Rice was not. And while I find him worthy, he is not the outlandish snub that Blyleven was for years.

    Who was great over a career, & had a pretty good peak too. And at least amongst the best curve balls ever.

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