A Possible Trade for the Red Sox

by JohnBowen

By Bob Owens

As most people know, last August the Boston Red Sox traded Adrian Gonzalez in a blockbuster deal with the Los Angeles Dodgers. As a Red Sox fan, I feel that trade was justified, yet it created a huge  void for the team at first base, both on their 40-man roster and the lower levels of their minor-league system.  And that lack of depth was magnified this off-season, as the Sox were very willing to sign Mike Napoli to a 3-year contract only to withhold their John Hancock once they performed a physical on Napoli and discovered that he has avascular necrosis on both hips, the same  type of injury that Bo Jackson and Floyd Landis had.

Because of these findings, the Red Sox reduced the 3-year offer to a 1-year deal and decreased his per-year guaranteed money from 13 million bucks to $5 million. These revisions clearly indicate that they have concerns. However, the fact they still offered him a deal also indicates the lack of depth in their system. So I decided to enmesh myself in a trade possiblity with the objective being that fans of both teams say is legitimate, not some lopsided you are a Sox homerish asshole. ( Which I am, but that is besides the point.)
I looked at 4 teams, Braves (Freddie Freeman) the Cubs (Anthony Rizzo, a former Sox prospect that they parted with to get Gonzalez) the Giants (Brandon Belt) and the Angels (Albert Pujols) who could be blocking upcoming 1b prospects in their own organization.

I dismissed the Cubs, as I do not see the those 2 dealing with each other.

I also looked at teams that I felt had a realistic shot at making the post-season. These 2 pieces of criteria led me straight to the Angels, who have plenty of 1b options behind the HOF bound Pujols. Mark Trumbo can play play that position, and I would not be surprised to see the newly-signed Josh Hamilton learn the position  once Pujols becomes a DH (circa 2015 -and before anyone snickers about that possibility, I remind you that Darin Erstad played both center fielder and 1b for Mike Scoscia).
And after reviewing the Angels prospect list, I saw the name C.J. Cron on most lists as one their better prospects. I also know that the Angels are in a win now mode after signing Hamilton and making sure that Mike Trout is on their opening-day roster. I also read that they may lack a little bit of depth in their starting pitching.
Enter the Red Sox. They are coming off- a last place finish in the AL East, and saw Toronto scarf up a boatload of talent from the Marlins and Mets. They still have to compete against a Tampa team led by Cy Young winner David Price, and MVP candidate Evan Longoria plus ROY favorite Wil Myers, a Yankee team that refuses to miss the playoffs and a newly energized Baltimoe Oriole team. In other words, the Sox have their work cut out for them. So would it be possible for the Sox to trade Jon Lester for C.J. Cron? Lester is a proven lefty who has battled the AL East, small ballparks and cancer and has won against all three obstacles. He is entering his age 29 season and has a team friendly contract through 2014 $11.6 million this year and a team option for 2014 of $13MM or a 250k buyout after this year. The Angels can afford that.
Now in 2 years in the minors, Cron a former 1st round pick from the University of Utah has pit up a slash line of .296/.337/.540 with 40 homers, better than anyone the Sox currently have in their system.
Again, I do  not expect this trade to happen right now, and perhaps the Sox surprise me and others by staying in the hunt all season long. However I do know this. The Marlins will not ask for Jon Lester in a package when they are forced to deal Mike Stanton. Might Cron entice them as part of a package? Well that is another story altogether.

320 Responses to “A Possible Trade for the Red Sox”

  1. JohnBowen Says:

    I’m having some formatting issues, but there it is.

    A couple things: “making sure that Mike Trout is on their opening-day roster.”

    Mike Trout was the MVP runner-up last year, and had the 20th best season of all-time. So yeah, I think he’ll be making the roster!

    Thing 2: I think Josh Hamilton will go to DH before Pujols. He has had way more injury issues in the past, isn’t a terribly great defensive player to begin with – and Pujols is still good at the bag.

    As for the trade, the key is in the second last sentence: “part of a package.” The Red Sox will probably be able to snag way more than Cron if the Angels are desperate enough.

    One last note: the Angels still owe Vernon Wells 42 million dollars. Not relevant, just thought I’d point that out!

  2. Bob Says:

    I was taking a light-hearted jab at the Angels with my Trout line. And it is possible that Hamilton becomes a DH before Pujols. Or perhaps they platoon between the field and DH.
    Have no idea what the Angels will do with Wells, other than pay him his salary.

  3. Chuck Says:

    Bourjos is a better option for Boston..that way they can trade the one-year wonder, Ellsbury, before he hits arbitration.

    Trade Bourjos and (fill in the blank) for Lester, then use Ellsbury to get Lester’s replacement.

  4. Bob Says:

    Bourjos and Cron for Lester or Doubrant. To be fair, I just want to protect Bucholz. And Lester is currently a bigger name than Doubrant. Let the Angels pick between them for the right package. Clearly the Sox do not have the depth to part with both, though I think they should sign Javier Vasquez to really augmnent their staff. He will be cheap. Just a harmless brainless move IMO

  5. Chuck Says:

    I’m not high on Cron..I think if you’re looking for a first baseman first and an outfielder second you can do better than him.

  6. Bob Says:

    I think the Red Sox are looking for a first baseman over an outfielder.

  7. Chuck Says:

    They could have re-signed Lars Anderson or kept Kevin Youkilis.

    They could have signed Carlos Pena or Mark Reynolds.

    They could get a cheap option like Justin Smoak or Mitch Moreland.

    If they really needed a first baseman, they have options.

  8. Bob Says:

    They parted with Youkilis when they still had Gonzalez. And no way was he resigning with them. And Anderson and pena are not long-term answers. I thought about Smoak in a lesser deal, not one involving Lester or Doubrant.

  9. Bob Says:

    The A’s acquired Jed Lowrie in a 5-player deal.

  10. Chuck Says:

    You could probably turn Saltlamacchia or Lavarnway into a 1B.

  11. Bob Says:

    That is a possibility.

  12. Chuck Says:

    RIP Earl Williams..

    1971 NL ROY

  13. Chuck Says:

    Didn’t Beane give a bunch of yen to some Japanese shortstop? What the hell does he need Lowrie for?

  14. Bob Says:

    Confused about this one myself.

  15. Chuck Says:

    A’s got Lowrie to be a utility player..he’s insurance if the Jap dude doesn’t work out and for third base as well.

    Best case scenario for A’s is he plays 120 games and gets 500 PA’s as a super sub type player with most of his work at third.

    Worst case scenario is Nakajima or whatever his name is busts like a pinata and Lowrie plays everyday at SS.

  16. Raul Says:

    He wrote a paragraph for each team, but I’ll just place Keith Law’s minor league farm rankings for now:

    1. Cardinals
    2. Twins
    3. Rays
    4. Astros
    5. Cubs
    6. Padres
    7. Pirates
    8. Mariners
    9. Rangers
    10. Yankees
    11. Royals
    12. Reds
    13. Orioles
    14. Mets
    15. Diamondbacks
    16. Marlins
    17. Red sox
    18. Dodgers
    19. Indians
    20. Braves
    21. Nationals
    22. Athletics
    23. Rockies
    24. Blue Jays
    25. Tigers
    26. Giants
    27. Phillies
    28. White Sox
    29. Brewers
    30. Angels

  17. Chuck Says:

    Mariners 8th? Rangers 9th?

    Dismissed.

  18. Bob Says:

    Manny Ramirez may play ball in Taiwan.

  19. Raul Says:

    Of the Mariners he writes:

    The Mariners still have that raft of starting pitching prospects, with Victor Sanchez and Brandon Maurer stepping up as James Paxton took a step back. Their first pick in the draft, Mike Zunino, might be the first position player from that draft class to reach the majors.

    Of the Rangers he writes:

    They have Jurickson Profar, arguably the top prospect in baseball, three guys in the back half of the top 100, and as much talent from their short-season rosters last year as any organization in baseball, primarily on the position-player side. Their international spending spree had to end under the new CBA, but many of the fruits of those efforts are just now reaching full-season leagues, setting the Rangers up well to maintain their contender status for several more years.

  20. Raul Says:

    Let’s irritate Chuck a little more.
    Keith Law’s top 100:

    Rank Name Pos Team
    1 Jurickson Profar SS TEX
    2 Oscar Taveras OF STL
    3 Dylan Bundy RHP BAL
    4 Wil Myers OF TB
    5 Xander Bogaerts SS BOS
    6 Christian Yelich OF MIA
    7 Francisco Lindor SS CLE
    8 Gerrit Cole RHP PIT
    9 Taijuan Walker RHP SEA
    10 Addison Russell SS OAK
    11 Miguel Sano 3B MIN
    12 Tyler Skaggs LHP ARI
    13 Zack Wheeler RHP NYM
    14 Travis d’Arnaud C NYM
    15 Mike Zunino C SEA
    16 Jose Fernandez RHP MIA
    17 Anthony Rendon 3B WAS
    18 Gary Sanchez C NYY
    19 Aaron Sanchez RHP TOR
    20 Jameson Taillon RHP PIT
    21 Shelby Miller RHP STL
    22 Byron Buxton CF MIN
    23 Kaleb Cowart 3B LAA
    24 Carlos Correa SS HOU
    25 Trevor Bauer RHP CLE
    26 Kevin Gausman RHP BAL
    27 Kyle Zimmer RHP KC
    28 Julio Teheran RHP ATL
    29 Archie Bradley RHP ARI
    30 Billy Hamilton CF CIN
    31 Javier Baez SS CHC
    32 Jonathan Singleton 1B HOU
    33 Albert Almora OF CHC
    34 Alen Hanson SS PIT
    35 Mason Williams OF NYY
    36 Austin Hedges C SD
    37 David Dahl OF COL
    38 Nick Castellanos 3B/RF DET
    39 Carlos Martinez RHP STL
    40 Jackie Bradley Jr. CF BOS
    41 Kyle Gibson RHP MIN
    42 Jorge Soler OF CHC
    43 George Springer CF HOU
    44 Brian Goodwin CF WAS
    45 Bubba Starling OF KC
    46 Corey Seager SS LAD
    47 Taylor Guerrieri RHP TB
    48 Robert Stephenson RHP CIN
    49 Aaron Hicks CF MIN
    50 Jonathan Schoop SS BAL
    51 Max Fried LHP SD
    52 Tyler Austin OF NYY
    53 Chris Archer RHP TB
    54 Rymer Liriano OF SD
    55 Gregory Polanco CF PIT
    56 Dorssys Paulino SS CLE
    57 Slade Heathcott CF NYY
    58 Trevor Rosenthal RHP STL
    59 Oswaldo Arcia OF MIN
    60 Casey Kelly RHP SD
    61 Alex Meyer RHP MIN
    62 Justin Nicolino LHP MIA
    63 Allen Webster RHP BOS
    64 Arodys Vizcaino RHP CHC
    65 Eddie Rosario 2B/CF MIN
    66 Danny Hultzen LHP SEA
    67 Zach Lee RHP LAD
    68 Jake Odorizzi RHP TB
    69 Nick Franklin SS SEA
    70 Jedd Gyorko 3B SD
    71 Mike Olt 3B TEX
    72 Daniel Corcino RHP CIN
    73 Wily Peralta RHP MIL
    74 Courtney Hawkins OF CWS
    75 Matt Davidson 3B ARI
    76 Kyle Crick RHP SF
    77 Lucas Giolito RHP WAS
    78 Hak-Ju Lee SS TB
    79 Matt Barnes RHP BOS
    80 Clayton Blackburn RHP SF
    81 Alex Colome RHP TB
    82 Jake Marisnick CF MIA
    83 Delino DeShields Jr. 2B HOU
    84 Luis Heredia RHP PIT
    85 Trevor Story SS COL
    86 Jarred Cosart RHP HOU
    87 Roberto Osuna RHP TOR
    88 Joe Ross RHP SD
    89 A.J. Cole RHP WAS
    90 Cody Buckel RHP TEX
    91 Adam Eaton CF ARI
    92 Adam Morgan RHP PHI
    93 Martin Perez LHP TEX
    94 J.R. Graham RHP ATL
    95 Jesse Biddle LHP PHI
    96 Kolten Wong 2B STL
    97 Noah Syndergaard RHP NYM
    98 Tony Cingrani LHP CIN
    99 Nathan Karns RHP WAS
    100 Eduardo Rodriguez RHP BAL

  21. Raul Says:

    Well that formatting sucked ass.

  22. Chuck Says:

    “They have Jurickson Profar, arguably the top prospect in baseball, three guys in the back half of the top 100″

    The LOWEST I’ve seen Mike Olt ranked (by anyone reasonably credible) is 22nd.

    Is he saying Olt isn’t a Top 50 for him?

  23. Bob Says:

    Mike Olt is # 71 for him.

  24. Chuck Says:

    Wait…what…71st?

    “by anyone reasonably credible)”

    In Law’s case, you can remove the “reasonably”.

  25. Bob Says:

    Chris Carpenter will likely miss the entire season.

  26. Chuck Says:

    “Chris Carpenter likely to miss entire 2013 season”

    Lifetime:

    144-94, 3.76 ERA. 2219 innings pitched (in 15 seasons, 141 per year)fewer K’s than innings, 116 career ERA+.

    It’s nice he had a Cy Young and all, but he wasn’t that good overall.

    So, who cares?

  27. Bob Says:

    Well perhaps Kyle Lohse or Joe Saunders, as the Cards may have to sign one of em.

  28. Chuck Says:

    No chance Lohse is going back, Saunders a possibility depending on contract length.

    Probably will give Shelby Miller a shot.

  29. Chuck Says:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-recent-examples-of-a-replacement-level-player/

    The first sentence is still true.

  30. Chuck Says:

    http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/40144e54

  31. JohnBowen Says:

    “It’s nice he had a Cy Young and all, but he wasn’t that good overall.”

    Since becoming a Cardinal, he has been (when healthy). But this will be his fourth year with the Cardinals where he basically missed it all. 7 starts combined in 07-08, 12.

  32. Chuck Says:

    http://marinerstalk.com/article/measuring-plate-skills

  33. Cameron Says:

    Bubba Starling at 45… Right. Keith Law is still Keith Law I see.

  34. Chuck Says:

    Ryan Braun’s name listed on Biogenesis report.

    I know, you’re all shocked.

    So is Francisco Cervelli’s.

    Line of the day..

    “If Francisco Cervelli did it, by definition it is no longer a performance-enhancing drug.”

    LMAO

  35. John Says:

    Well, the test was one thing.

    But 2 isn’t a coincidence.

    That sucks.

  36. Brautigan Says:

    It was obvious from the first one. Braun’s contention wasn’t he used PED’s, it was the chain of command of his urine sample. Once that was thrown out, he didn’t have to say “boo” about anything. Screw that santcimonius jackass.

  37. Chuck Says:

    Didn’t take long.

    Ryan Braun’s explanation to why his name appears on the “client” list.

    “During the course of preparing for my successful appeal last year, my attorneys, who were previously familiar with Tony Bosch, used him as a consultant. More specifically, he answered questions about T/E ratio and possibilities of tampering with samples. There was a dispute over compensation for Bosch’s work, which is why my lawyer and I are listed under ‘moneys owed’ and not on any other list. I have nothing to hide and have never had any other relationship with Bosch. I will fully cooperate with any inquiry into this matter.”

  38. Raul Says:

    I got $20 says Ryan Braun has never uttered the word “inquiry” in his entire life.

  39. John Says:

    I will at least say that it’s not totally outside the realm of possibilities.

    Far-fetched? Perhaps. But if true, it’s not a matter of coincidence, but rather a connection.

    If it is a lie, there are enough witnesses connected to this that it’ll come out clearly and conclusively.

    Either way, my guess is that this statement was ready to go a week ago after the ARod leak.

  40. Raul Says:

    BTW,

    I remember seeing Tyler Austin’s stats towards the end of the season. But I didn’t think he was a Top talent. Even if you accept Law’s ranking of him at #52, he doesn’t belong ahead of Mike Olt.

  41. Cameron Says:

    Jameson Taillon is #20. That’s a high rating for anyone, but Taillon is a rare talent. I think he’s the best RHP not named Dylan Bundy, but hey. I think even physically he looks like he could be better than Bundy… But numbers don’t lie with that kid, Dylan blew away everyone.

  42. Chuck Says:

    Unlike the vast majority of these so-called prospect writers, Law does actually see these guys play.

    Joe Delgrippo has seen him a three or four Sally or EL parks, and a buddy has seen him in both Salt Lake City and Reno.

    So, for him to fuck up his list as bad as he did either proves he still doesn’t know shit, or he does it on purpose so he can sell site subscriptions.

    Either way, he’s a douchebag.

  43. Chuck Says:

    As bad as Law’s is, this one may be worse, but at least this guy admits to not watching players.

    Which begs the question.

    Why do a list?

    http://topprospectalert.com/2013/01/29/2013-top-150-major-league-baseball-prospect-rankings/

  44. Raul Says:

    I think Del Grippo actually interviews some of the prospects. Or maybe interview is a strong word.

  45. Cameron Says:

    @42 Or he’s just an EXTREMELY bad scout.

  46. Cameron Says:

    You know, I think it’s time to air out one of my weirdest baseball superstitions. I think if a guy has a goofy-sounding name, he’s not going to be THAT great. Call it an inherent bias in not wanting to see them in media coverage, but look at Xander Boagerts. A lot of people think he’s really good. I think that name is too goofy to appear in anything outside the Pawtucket Times and he’ll bust. Sometimes I’m wrong, like Buster Posey. For lord’s sake is his name goofy, but he’s a star. Seems that about… 8 times out of 10 I’m right though.

  47. Raul Says:

    Sometimes with a goofy name you build up a certain drive to transcend the jokes and become really great at something.

    Other times, well…you end up like Milton Bradley

  48. Cameron Says:

    Oh he was screwed for life with that name. His parents deserve to be slapped.

    Also, is it just me, or does Jameson Taillon sound like he should be black?

  49. Chuck Says:

    “Sometimes I’m wrong, like Buster Posey. For lord’s sake is his name goofy, but he’s a star.”

    His given name is Gerald.

  50. Cameron Says:

    Like how Bubba Starling’s given name is Derek, and Derek Starling sounds like a ballplayer to me. Granted, a new-age ballplayer from these days and not a universal name like some players. Take Freddie Freeman. Maybe a bit out of place now, but you could plug that name in just about anywhere and it’d fit on the roster.

    But hey, he wants to be called Bubba and Jerry Posey wants to be Buster. Who am I to judge? They’ll make more money in a year than I’ll make in my life. They can do whatever the hell they want far as I’m concerned.

  51. Cameron Says:

    Mike! You never told me your brother did work for Marvel Comics. That’s awesome, dude.

  52. Mike Felber Says:

    What do you mean Cam, where did you here that? My brother is on 100 + radio markets on the news quiz comedy show “Wait Wait, Don’t Tell Me”. And ex GF I just saw told me it will be a movie coming out May 2nd-I did not know. And he writes for Bill Maher, has other TV shows, as my Sister has (Comedy Central, Court/True TV). They did a comedy show near me in Midtown for 6 years some years ago.

    You wanna see something well rendered yet more than vaguely comic like/cartoonish? Here is the newlt revamped promo page from my Web Site. Click on the image for a close up & a few sample spreads of my new magazine, gonna be in some stores across the US & in Canada, more ~ NYC.

    I micro-managed/created the cover lines & their design, chose work submitted for the windows…The art work is from a Hell’s Kitchen New Age store owner, woprked out perfectly, he gave me another version of it for the inside back cover, I stuck some more provocative works in those windows…I put some crazy words hiding in plain site on the very top center, starting with “Hell’s Kitchen Artists Association & convalescence home…” Too small to read there, barely in the 8.5″ X 11″ copy.

    http://www.artistsinthekitchen.org/AtTheEdgeMagazine.htm

  53. Cameron Says:

    http://www.newsarama.com/comics/020910-SKK.html

    Took over an old series from Grant Morrison and Mark Millar from the 90s. Those two guys are pretty fucking big in the industry now, so that’s awesome.

  54. Chuck Says:

    Nice site, “the Felbs”.

  55. Raul Says:

    I do not see how this Profar kid is the top prospect in baseball.
    He’s a SS/2B? Great.

    He’s probably a notch above Andrus, which means maybe he becomes Asdrubal Cabrera.
    All-Star level? Possibly. But top guy in the minors? I’m not seeing it.

  56. Chuck Says:

    Yeah, Raul, I can see that argument.

    The fact the Rangers would be more willing to move him than Andrus basically confirms that, regardless of whether he has the better bat, which is also questionable.

  57. Chuck Says:

    I never knew you could send someone a private Twitter message..until yesterday.

    I had two emails saying..”so and so has sent you a private message”

    I made the mistake, apparently, of putting the Brewers on my profile page and two people who work for one of these amateur prospect blogs said they were coming out for ST and asked for tickets.

    I kid you not.

    The answer they received was nothing close to what they should have.

  58. Bob Says:

    I have sent two tweets out, to the same person, and yet a week ago I received a message saying that someone I do not know follows me.

  59. Cameron Says:

    @55 He’s elbowing playing ML playing time from Ian Kinsler, Elvis Andrus, and Adrian Beltre. That’s pretty fucking impressive. And who would you have #1? Tavares? Myers?

  60. Bob Says:

    Bundy would be the choice.

  61. Chuck Says:

    I would not do a pitcher, especially a high schooler.

    I’d go Myers just because he was POY last year and is CTM than anyone else at this point.

  62. Cameron Says:

    I could defend Bundy given his ridiculous numbers, but I’ll stick with Profar. Good bat for a shortstop, burner on the basepaths, and a glove so good it knocks the reigning Gold Glove at SS off his spot.

  63. Chuck Says:

    Bundy’s numbers don’t mean Jack.

  64. Chuck Says:

    And it’s Profar who is moving positions, not Andrus.

    Cart before the horse.

  65. Cameron Says:

    Right, low level numbers, etc. But the kid is an undeniable beast. And Myers is closer to the majors than Profar? Profar’s on a 25 man roster and Myers isn’t.

  66. Chuck Says:

    Profar’s on the 40, and roster status doesn’t really mean someone is closer to the majors.

    He’s blocked by an All Star at every position, Tampa has no right fielder.

    That makes Myers closest.

  67. Cameron Says:

    Him and Olt are both listed on the mlb.com depth chart for the Rangers, and they only use 25-man guys for the depth chart. I also saw in a news piece that in addition to the sub roles (MI for Profar, CI for Olt), they both might also see time in the corner outfield. Texas is crazy high on the both of them.

  68. Chuck Says:

    “they only use 25-man guys for the depth chart.”

    The Rangers have 30 players listed on their depth chart.

    So much for that theory.

  69. Mike Felber Says:

    THANK YOU Chuck. Though I am not theFelbs. It is kind of a bizarre story…

    I ran one of my many Craigslist ads a couple of years ago for volunteers, have ~ a dozen in circulation now. Guy calls me up & says “you would not believe it, I am Mike Felber too”. SO I made him Director oif Graphic Design! Through 2 festivals so far, & when another failed as Editor in Chief, he took over.

    His aesthetic is more minimalistic than mine, though I have pushed him, we are a balance. so the goes by ‘theFelbs’. I closely manage some things, but HE does the actual graphic design, close to 1/2 of the magazine spreads.

  70. Mike Felber Says:

    Cameron, I am surprised I did not know about my brother in comics! I will call him soon, must catch up! Thanks for showing me this.

    Me on phone with ex GF, fevered voice for fun:
    “Cathy, I cannot talk to you right now, I have Mike Felber on the line, I cannot keep Mike Felber waiting”!

    She thought I had finally cracked.

  71. Bob Says:

    The Mets signed Corey Patterson.

  72. Chuck Says:

    “She thought I had finally cracked.”

    She obviously doesn’t know you as well as we do.

  73. Mike Felber Says:

    * Rimshot*. Right, she shoulda known that I had already cracked long ago.

  74. Raul Says:

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying Profar will be terrible. But he’s not a steals guy and my guess is that on the high end, he’s a .280/.355/.430 player.

    Now that’s REALLY good for a SS/2B, assuming he can do that at the ML level. But some of these guys behind him could be Cy Young winner and MVPs.

    Do you look at Profar and think “There goes Derek Jeter with a gold glove?”
    Doubt it.

  75. Raul Says:

    Am I the only one around here who thinks Craig Kimbrel is highly overrated?

    It’s 1 inning.

  76. Chuck Says:

    “Am I the only one around here who thinks Craig Kimbrel is highly overrate?”

    Nope.

  77. Chuck Says:

    Mike Olt @ #71..

    Still can’t get that one.

    After #20, he must have had his 6 year old pull names out of her Dora lunchbox.

  78. Raul Says:

    “After #20, he must have had his 6 year old pull names out of her Dora lunchbox.”

    LOL!

  79. Chuck Says:

    At Phoenix Hot Stove luncheon for media types, Red Sox picked by majority to finish last in AL East.

    This is going to be a good year, I can tell already.

  80. Chuck Says:

    The Padres and Mariners each got more first place votes for their respective divisions than the Red Sox.

  81. Chuck Says:

    Add Jhonny Peralta’s name to the Biogenesis client list.

  82. Raul Says:

    This is probably gonna end up like Jose Canseco’s claim.

    We’re probably looking at like half the league engaged in some ridiculous waiver for PEDs or “anti-aging” substances.

  83. Raul Says:

    Jesus Montero reportedly linked to Biogenesis.

  84. Chuck Says:

    Ha..I fucking knew it.

    Who works out every winter with ARod in Miami?

    Melky Cabrera. Check.

    Francisco Cervelli. Check.

    Jesus Montero. Check.

    ARod’s the new Jeff Bagwell.

  85. Mike Felber Says:

    Again with the Bagwell. Show me he was the Bar-man, & I will believe it.

    A-Rod though, has FAR more than guilt by association. I could not trust his original explanation due to its inconsistencies. So further use of PEDs is no surprise.

  86. Cameron Says:

    @74 I do. I think he has potential to be a .300 hitter with 20 steals and a gold glove in his prime. I’m not going to guess on power because I tend to be WILDLY wrong on that a lot of the time for some reason.

  87. Chuck Says:

    We’ve been through this before Mike, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion of course, but unless you remove the blinders I see no reason to get into this again.

    I don’t know Cam, I look at Manny Machado and Francisco Lindor and the Correa kid in Houston and I can’t see Profar being in that group. He may be the leader of the next pack behind them and COULD get there, but I can’t bet on him now.

    If he was truly that special, it would be Andrus who would be moving to second base and not him.

  88. Chuck Says:

    The Nationals have signed Micah Owings to a minor league contract with an invitation to major league spring training.

    As a first baseman.

  89. Cameron Says:

    Chuck, I think he could be every bit as good as Machado, Lindor, Baez, and Corea. They’re all just different players. Machado’s well-rounded, Baez and Lindor are mashers, and Corea seems a bit Jeter-esque. Profar’s probably got the weakest bit of them, but he’s porbably got the best legs and BY FAR the best glove. All in all, the next group of shortstops coming up looks pretty exciting.

  90. Chuck Says:

    Machado’s ceiling is a Hall of Famer.

    None of the other guys come close to that.

    Machado..only playing third because of presence of Hardy..will be a SS longterm.
    Lindor..love this kid.
    Correa..he’s big like Machado and could stay at SS, but a tick below tools wise.
    Profar..won’t stay at short unless he’s traded (or Andrus)
    Baez..won’t stay at short.

  91. Chuck Says:

    The so-called “mystery” team Scott Boras keeps throwing in Sandy Alderson’s face regarding offers he has for Michael Bourne is Tampa.

    Which is actually kind of funny considering they’re cheaper than the Mets.

  92. Raul Says:

    Machado is a baby-faced little punk and that sucker held his own against MLB pitching last season. He’s got a way to go, but as he grows into frame, he’ll get a bit more power and stability. He’s just gotta learn to be more selective.

    Machado had 7 homers in 51 games off of Rafael Soriano, Felix Doubront, David Carpenter, Carlos Villanueva, Bruce Chen — and you’re boy Cam — Luke Hochevar (twice).

  93. Chuck Says:

    So…

    Alex Rodriguez thinks this Biogenesis thing is a made up conspiracy orchestrated by the Yankees and MLB to discredit or disgrace him.

    http://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/msn/alex_rodriguez_reportedly_thinks_yankees_or_mlb_are_out_to_get_him/12839626

  94. Bob Says:

    Funny, considering Braun acknowledges that he and his lawyers spoke to the staff of Bogenesis. So at the very least, 1 player has had discussions ith this guy.
    At least Braun is not saying that MLB is after him led by the Brewers.

  95. Chuck Says:

    Braun’s full of shit.

  96. Raul Says:

    Well, if it is a conspiracy it was ballsy of them to throw out the names of unblemished guys like Gio Gonzalez and marginal Francisco Cervelli.

  97. Raul Says:

    Right.

    Braun’s lawyers just reached out to Bosch to help with their case against MLB. Totally believable, because Bosch is one of the most well-respected doctors in the country.

  98. Bob Says:

    My point is that the Yankees and MLB were not after ARod. Now they may be.

  99. Raul Says:

    Yeah, the Yankees want to get out of this contract.

    They probably wanted out the day after he signed it. Did they concoct this story to get him to retire? Probably not. But once it came out that he did juice, hell yeah they considered using it to avoid 100M in salary.

  100. Chuck Says:

    ARod’s got no excuses left..he’s used them all, all he can do now is make stuff up.

    Like Braun did.

  101. Raul Says:

    In a way, I think this is a bit ridiculous that the whole thing revolves around Arod.

    In the coming months and years we’re going to learn that Arod is just the tip of the iceberg. There are probably hundreds of players using PEDs right now, and over the last 5 supposed “clean” years in MLB.

    I’ll defend Arod in the sense that he’s no bigger cheat than Melky or any of these other guys.

    Someone explain to me how Arod is any worse than Andy Pettitte…unless you believe that bullshit about him only taking it to get over an injury….riiiiight.

  102. Chuck Says:

    With all the guys named so far being linked to ARod in some form..would anyone be surprised if Robbie Cano’s name comes up at some point?

    Not me.

  103. Cameron Says:

    @92 I actually like Hochevar. …You know, until the fifth inning wall he hits without fail comes up.

  104. Bob Says:

    The difference is that Andy Petitte did not lie about his taking the stuff to our knowledge. If these guys stood up and said yeah, I took it because others were, and I refused to become a laggard and miss out on copious amounts of fame and fortune, well who would begrudge them that?

  105. Chuck Says:

    Rico Brogna took steriods…because of the arthritis he has in his spine.

    They added four or five years to his career and a few million to his bank account.

    Never made an AS team, never won a GG, but he still used, and the reasons why are irrelevant.

  106. Raul Says:

    Andy totally lied. He said he took it just to get over an injury. Nonsense. He was taking that stuff for a lot longer than that.

  107. Raul Says:

    Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Cano juiced.

  108. Bob Says:

    Before he was teammates with Clemens?

  109. Raul Says:

    Probably.

  110. Raul Says:

    But Clemens came in 99, so even if you gave him that, there are a good few years of juicing.

  111. Chuck Says:

    What does Clemens have to do with Cano, Bob?

    They were teammates for about 15 minutes.

  112. Bob Says:

    Clemens has nothing to do with Cano. He has alot to do with Pettitte.

  113. Lefty33 Says:

    http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/02/07/curt-schilling-says-was-encouraged-use-peds-late-his-career/39I03wALvdkwPOHxE9ICOI/story.html

    This is just Curt showing a new pathetic low in his never ending quest to still seem important and relevant. The thing that Curt seems to forget is that:

    A. No one believes him

    B. Every time he stirs the pot with this type of attention-getting, self-serving nonsense it only digs him deeper and deeper with the BBWAA and only makes his microscopic chances at a HOF induction that much smaller.

  114. Raul Says:

    LOL @ that, Lefty.

    Schilling juiced his ass off.

  115. Cameron Says:

    I’m a bit iffy on Schilling. Part of me thinks that him being so anti-PED would make him think he not used (A la Frank Thomas), but… Well, my biggest thing against him in my mind is his career arc. Excellent but short peak, often injured, still managed excellent longevity. It’s a typical steroid career line.

  116. Raul Says:

    Schilling was vocal about being anti steroids?
    Oh. So was David Ortiz, Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro…

  117. Chuck Says:

    The more anti-PEDS someone is, the more likely they used, IMO.

    Schilling has talked more about it himself than anyone has about him, Thomas has been out-spoken about it but doesn’t bring it up on his own, which makes a difference for me.

    Do I think Thomas used? Yes.

    Do I think Schilling used? Absolutely hell effin’ yeah.

  118. Cameron Says:

    How can you tell if someone as big as Thomas used? He looked like post-steroid Barry Bonds coming out of college.

  119. Chuck Says:

    That’s why I think he did use something..he wasn’t exactly Adonis…he was a big fat football player who could barely walk, and yet continued to play at a reasonably high level for a few years longer than he should have.

    I’m not saying he did, I’m saying I wouldn’t be surprised if he did.

    Schilling’s a no-brainer.

  120. Bob Says:

    I thought I recall Bo Jackson say it was easy to run over Bosworth because Frank Thomas ran over me. Or something like that.
    Put me in the I think Thomas was clean category.

  121. Raul Says:

    I cannot stress this enough: I despise Mike Lupica. I think he’s a coward and a flip flopper and a shitty writer.

    And while I’m not supporting using tax dollars to find out who is using steroids, I was amused by the way he completely shitted on Ryan Braun

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/lupica-time-mlb-muscle-braun-article-1.1257496

  122. Chuck Says:

    I actually like Lupica, but considering I haven’t lived or worked in a zip code where I could read the Daily News in 30 years, what the hell do I know.

  123. Chuck Says:

    Dominican Republic vs. Mexico tonight for the Caribbean WS title.

    Puerto Rico had a chance to get into the title game with a win last night over Mexico, but instead got no-hit over 7 innings by Luis Mendoza of the Royals and got waxed 10-0.

  124. Raul Says:

    I don’t read the Daily News as much as I did 10 years ago, but I’ve seen Lupica shit on the Yankees in June only to suck their dicks in October. I’m tired of him.

    Plus, I find him to be a smug jerkoff.

    That said, he was absolutely right about Ryan Braun.

  125. Raul Says:

    DR beat Mexico by luck the other night.
    Let’s see what happens tonight.

  126. Chuck Says:

    I was always a Post guy myself.

  127. Chuck Says:

    Caribbean baseball is awesome..first game I went to was amazing..I don’t hardly remember anything on the field, just the vendors selling rum and cokes and the salsa bands in the stands.

  128. Cameron Says:

    Now that’s a party.

  129. Chuck Says:

    Francisco Cervelli says he’ll talk “next week” about the story, which I guess is his way of saying his lawyers need a few days to formulate a good bullshit story.

    Which Jesus Montero should have done, because he did speak today and lied through his teeth.

    Dumbass.

  130. Raul Says:

    I wonder what Japan’s view of steroids in baseball is.
    Do they have an issue with it there? Do the Japanese even take them?

    I mean, it’s just something I’ve never read about.

  131. Chuck Says:

    What, so a singles hitter can become a doubles hitter?

    Makes sense, look at the guy Oakland just signed. Two years ago, no one would even talk to the guy, now he’s their starting SS.

    Then again, it is Oakland.

  132. Cameron Says:

    From what I know of Japanese baseball, there’s no steroid issues. There’s no focus on a power game there, it’s all skill and teamwork.

  133. Raul Says:

    Felix Hernandez signed a 7-year, 175M contract with Seattle.

    Wow.

  134. Brautigan Says:

    “There’s no focus on a power game there.”

    Try convincing Tuffy Rhodes, Sadaharu Oh, Alex Ramirez and Alex Cabrera of that little factoid.

  135. Bob Says:

    To the people on the East Coast, stock up on alcohol tonight. Or Mike, in your case, milk.

  136. Raul Says:

    LOL @ Bob

  137. Chuck Says:

    I remember the ‘78 blizzard.

    Standing on top of the snow shoveling DOWN to get my dad’s car out.

  138. Chuck Says:

    So, my buddy says Montero didn’t cheat because only his name is in the ledger, there’s no reference to drugs or money owed.

    “Dude, the ledger isn’t his Christmas card list, if your name is in the book, duck, because MLB is going to throw it at you”.

  139. Bob Says:

    Your buddy’s position is the same as Braun’s.

  140. Bob Says:

    The Bruins traded Tim Thomas to the Islanders. Thanks for the Stanley Cup.

  141. Bob Says:

    The Indians signed Rich Hill to a minor-league deal. I thought there was an outside shot he ended up in Rhode Island. Guess not.

  142. Bob Says:

    The Mariners are about to add Joe Saunders to their pitching staff. Good day for them. The AL West will be a dogfight. See you guys whenever.

  143. Raul Says:

    The Islanders. They’re getting their asses handed to them by the Rangers as we speak.

  144. Chuck Says:

    Rich Hill in Rhode Island?

    I thought that Independent League team left Providence years ago.

    The Rangers could go 12-68 every year for all I care, long as they go 12-0 against the Islanders and Devils.

    I didn’t know you were an Islanders fan, Bob?

    Joe Saunders?

    I didn’t know Felix’ new contract called for a personal valet.

  145. Raul Says:

    Thanks for reminding me of the Caribbean World Series tonight, Chuck.

    Game is about to get started in a few minutes on ESPN Deportes.
    Took me a long time to find that channel.

  146. Raul Says:

    leadoff batter for Mexico bunted.

  147. Raul Says:

    And the 2nd mexican batter showed bunt on the 1st pitch. i wonder which jackass coaches this team.

  148. Raul Says:

    I think my favorite part of this game is that the broadcast does not show the MPH of the pitches.

    Because it’s not that big a fucking deal.

  149. Raul Says:

    So Mexico took a 2-1 off of what was possibly the shittiest play I have ever seen by a right fielder.

  150. Mike Felber Says:

    (Paul Newman’s Voice in Cool Hand Luke): What we have here is a failure to communcate.

    A couple of you think I am naive? It is the exact corollary of naive, but a nefarious perversion of innocence, to believe someone used with zero, or no substantive, evidence.

    Raul you have absolutely no cause to insist Schilling Juice. Chuck you got nothing on him. Being dragged before a forum or compelled to answer questions & lying is *not* the same as being outspoken on your own.

    Yet if a rare guy is you presume he is more likely to be a liar? That is a facepalm & a 1/2!

    Thomas was always a hoss, he faded & played DH to keep going. Nothing unusual about that.

    Schilling was better later in his career. So was Randy Johnson. He must be a user too. Most pitchers struggle with injuries at some time.

    If you reserved judgement, that would be one thing. Though no evidence + rare outspoken condemnation should = presumption of innocence. But no way it is possible that general distate-hatred of Schilling does not influence some opinions here.

  151. Mike Felber Says:

    Milk? Nah, have a conventional amount of lactose intolerance, though can do cheese & ice cream. But sure juice is more my speed, I have no adult tasets for alcohol, coffee, smoking…Got my British Brother in Law a single malt for X-Mas, he really liked that.

    Freeganed a bunch of chicken, dairy, fruit post midnight. Even got a call when finishing my newsletter from my friend the Gristedes security guard that they were about to put out the birds!

    Great that this can be available right in Midtown! Thank you garbage-charms @8th Avenue.

  152. Mike Felber Says:

    I’ll tel you who looks PEDed up-the Rock in the new Superbowl spots. That level of bulk & definition is hard to come by naturally. Not sure, but more likely for sure than naturally huge Thomas or “more hated than Hitler” Schilling.

  153. Cameron Says:

    The Rock’s always been that bulky. Since like, his early 20s when he was called Rocky Maiavia and was the bratty kid everyone hated. Dude’s a brick house. But uh… He’s never been that cut in his life. Not even close.

  154. Cameron Says:

    Fun fact Mike? Both The Rock and Thomas are 6′5″. The only thing separating them in listed weights is 20 pounds. They were both football players. Thomas was a Tight End for Auburn(not that long) and Rocky was a defensive tackle for the Miami Hurricanes.

  155. Chuck Says:

    “A couple of you think I am naive?”

    No, we know you are.

    Think outside the box for once, I promise, it won’t hurt.

  156. Chuck Says:

    “Schilling was better later in his career. So was Randy Johnson. He must be a user too.”

    That, my good sir, was a naive comment.

    Sometimes you answer your own questions.

  157. Chuck Says:

    Holy crap…Mexico beat the Dominican for the Caribbean WS title..in 18 innings.

  158. Cameron Says:

    Damn! When are we gonna get a Game 7 that awesome?

  159. Raul Says:

    Well just to be clear, Cam, the Caribbean World Series doesn’t follow the same playoff format as MLB. So it wasn’t a 7 game series.

    Still, it’s good to have some baseball in the middle of winter.

  160. Cameron Says:

    Dude, who cares? You said it was the deciding game, right? In essence, it’s Game 7. Could you imagine our WS going 18 innings in Game 7? Greatest World Series ever.

  161. Raul Says:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130207/mlb-offseason-power-rankings/?sct=hp_t12_a3&eref=sihp

    I have to credit Toronto, only because under their list of players they lost, none if them is anyone you would want on your team:

    Subtractions: SP Henderson Alvarez, SS Adeiny Hechavarria, RP Brandon Lyon, RP Jason Frasor, SS Omar Vizquel, C Jeff Mathis, SP Carlos Villanueva, 2B Kelly Johnson, RP Darren Oliver*, RP Jason Frasor*

  162. Cameron Says:

    Not to mention the players added. Reyes, Johnson, Dickey, even utility guys like Cabrera and Bonifacio, they fucking cleaned house.

  163. Cameron Says:

    Um, quick question. How in the blue hell is Jose Valverde still a free agent? How come a team like the Royals who need a closer (fuck you, Dayton Moore) not thrown a boatload of cash at this guy by now? With his numbers, dude could make a mint.

  164. Chuck Says:

    “Um, quick question. How in the blue hell is Jose Valverde still a free agent?”

    He sucks monkey balls?

  165. Raul Says:

    Did you watch the end of the season and playoffs?
    Did you watch Jose Valverde?

    He stunk it up. He probably might be injured.

  166. Chuck Says:

    Steve Demeter died the other day..he was a long time coach and scout and is in the International League HOF as a player.

    He played 15 major league games.

    He was the guy the Tigers traded to Detroit for Norm Cash.

    Even up.

    After the trade, Cash won a batting title, gold gloves and was an All Star.

    Demeter wen 0-5 with Cleveland, was sent down, and never played again.

  167. Cameron Says:

    Yeah he blew up during the playoffs, but is one bad postseason enough to wipe out the last five years of work? For fuck’s sake, KC’s closer is Greg Holland. Pick up the fucking phone!

  168. Raul Says:

    You sure you gonna be in the lead in the 9th much this year?

    Holland might get 15 save chances all season. Hahaha.

  169. Chuck Says:

    Watching the WS game last night and saw a really fat Miguel Tejada..who a week from now will be in spring training trying to win a job with….

    …the Royals.

    LOL.

    And you want FatAss Valverde?

    Why, so you can win 67 games instead of 65?

    Brilliant thought process working there, Cam.

  170. Mike Felber Says:

    I am naive sometimes Chuck, but you have not shown I am about this issue,, nor that you are not overly cynical, likely due to Schilling-loathing. It is one thing to reserve judgement, you have converted yourself absent explanation to sayin’ he definitely used!

    One thing I do is think outside of the proverbial box-I considered all possibilities. But believing because a man was uniquely vociferous on an issue he must have used-that seems very constricted & unsupportable thinking. The Bog unit thought applies to Cam’s comment, & I will add it is very hard to even be pretty sure based ONLY on career arc. If it is extreme + there is a big physical transformation-beyond what so many like me have done & become bulky when average/fit in their 20’s-that is an exception.

    But few are as extreme in this regard as Sosa. Bonds was 206 @ 8% body fat at 6′ 1″ or 2″ before he got bigger later, already a fitness fanatic. And he did not have the fairly massive Thomas bone structure. So while it was not enough to know for sure alone, gaining appreciable bulk on top of that-forget about his head-was quite suggestive.

    These things just do not apply with Schilling. Nor most-guys could be cheating or not (& not even bulky) & it takes specific evidence to be reasonably sure.

  171. Raul Says:

    Schilling was before Congress with McGwire and Canseco for a reason.

  172. Cameron Says:

    Eh… Yeah… But then, a good closer actually matters more to a team like the Royals. You may not be in the lead late all that often, but if you have a guy who’s gonna fuck the game late, your team will lose those late-and-close ones you had a chance at. Take a look at Joakim Soria (again, fuck you Dayton Moore) pre and post injury. When Soria tanked, so did the team.

  173. Chuck Says:

    “but you have not shown I am about this issue”

    You do a fine job yourself, don’t need help from me.

    “Bonds was 206 @ 8% body fat at 6′ 1″ or 2″before he got bigger”

    Wrong.

    Barry was an inch bigger than Bobby, probably 6′1″, but maybe 10-15 lighter. At 185, Barry was fat.

  174. Chuck Says:

    Marlins signed Chone Figgins

  175. Raul Says:

    I guess if Figgins is gonna make a comeback, doing it in baseball purgatory is the place to do it. No one will notice him if he fails down there.

  176. Raul Says:

    Yankees and Cano are discussing an extension. This is bad news.

    Look, I like Cano. I think he’s a good player. But I don’t like the idea of the Yankees possibly offering this guy a 150-ish million dollar extension.

    How many times are you going to burden your roster with inflexibility? Is that even a word? Anyway, the point is, when you have aging players that you can’t move you put yourself in …let’s call it General Manager Prison.

  177. Mike Felber Says:

    What? OK, he was listed at 6′ 1″ later in his career 6′ 1″. hard to know what is correct, but since guys exaggerate, let us say 73′ is right.

    He was listed as 185 when he came in the league. And was lean & fast obviously. He did steadily gain muscle, & I look at pictures of him before the ‘98/’99 off season, & read his size. if he was listed lower, show me. I have seen progressive team listings of his weight that accord with this.

    He basically ~ maxed out his potential for adding muscle naturally & then cheated like a bandit. But while lean, he had a good amount of muscle before juicing, but then went into steroid territory bulk.

  178. Mike Felber Says:

    Just spoke with my brother late last night, he wrote the original jibe.

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/06/donald-trump-bill-maher-orangutan-lawsuit-tmz-tv

  179. Chuck Says:

    I think at this point I’d almost rather play for the Astros, at least they seem to have a plan.

    The Marlins spend a billion dollars on a new stadium and then turn around and ditch their roster..it’s almost as if they’re trying to suck on purpose.

  180. Chuck Says:

    “He basically ~ maxed out his potential for adding muscle naturally & then cheated like a bandit”

    see: Jeff Bagwell.

    You can’t cherry pick Mike, both went well beyond what would be normal for their body types, you can’t justify Bonds doing it then getting your tampon string in a knot when someone “accuses” Bagwell of doing the exact same goddamn thing.

    Your soapbox is getting wobbly by the minute.

  181. Mike Felber Says:

    lol, Again w/the macho tampon string thing…

    The difference we have here is while Bagwell might have one beyond what he could from his body type, you & I do not know that.

    10 Bagwell bulked up younger, Bonds after years of lifting when he had maxed out his potential.

    2) We have tons of evidence on Bonds, beyond “The Cream” & “The Clear” dirty tests. And a swollen skull.

    3) The problem is some folks have outlier genetic potential for adding muscle. Given the best training & nutrition + a long off season, some can get ‘roid size-& some ‘roid guys look somewhere between Sam Cassell & Derek Jeter, no more than lean-strong build.

  182. Chuck Says:

    Do I think Schilling did steriods?

    Yes, because he’s a slimeball..it’s his nature and personality..he made up the damn bloody sock and has rode that to fame, so why wouldn’t he stand up with a sad face and rip everyone for doing something he’s already done?

    He’s already a confirmed liar, I wouldn’t trust him for directions to Joe’s Crab Shack.

  183. Raul Says:

    Shit. Now I’m hearing 200M potentially for Cano. Trying to pattern it after Votto’s deal.

    Same old stupid Yankees.

  184. Mike Felber Says:

    Ah, yeah, I am gonna need to see some actual evidence that he made up the bloody sock.

    A loudmouth, arrogant, annoying, politics…irrelevant.

    Ditto on the stupidity of tying just good players to massive contracts. You wanna make it 1/2 that, & have incentives for MVP like performances, be my guest.

  185. Chuck Says:

    “Ah, yeah, I am gonna need to see some actual evidence that he made up the bloody sock.”

    Sure you are.

    You’re like Milton Bradley, aren’t you?

    “Dinosaurs never existed”.

  186. Mike Felber Says:

    That is a bizarre comparison Chuck. Comparing a Godless Liberal humanist with a science denier, all because I merely asked for evidence that a man faked a celebrated incident of sports heroics.

    There is like a completely negative correlation between these polarities; like an an analogy made of anti-matter!

  187. Raul Says:

    And MLB says Schilling’s claims are baseless.

  188. Chuck Says:

    http://www.highheatstats.com/2013/02/beyond-era-why-rick-reuschel-had-hall-of-fame-value/

  189. Raul Says:

    “Seven pitchers in the post-integration era (1947–present) threw between 3248 and 3848 innings (within 300 of Reuschel) with an ERA+ between 110 and 118. Sorted by WAR, Reuschel leads the list, followed by Luis Tiant (who is in the Hall of Stats). The next two—Jim Bunning an Dennis Eckersley—are Hall of Famers (and not particularly borderline ones).”

    Yes, Eckerlsey and Bunning are borderline. So shut up.

  190. John Says:

    Well, Eck got in on the first ballot.

    Bunning was elected by the VC – once he was a Senator.

  191. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes they are borderline Raul. Eckersly likely below, Tiant maybe just above.

    MLB loves to take a long trip down De Nile.

  192. Chuck Says:

    “MLB loves to take a long trip down De Nile.”

    At the end of which is your house.

  193. Raul Says:

    I think Eckersley was overrated.

  194. Raul Says:

    Luis Tiant probably was great before he got hurt and lost velocity. Still had a great career.

  195. Bob Says:

    It was Carl Everett and the dinosaurs.

  196. Mike Felber Says:

    Snap! Yet I cannot be both naive & in denial about the same things. And since I apparently am the Most Naive Man on the Planet=I will purchase any impressive-looking bridge, & am so trusting that I will not believe guys must be cheaters & liars without evidence-it must be the former.

    House? I am grateful to have a rent stabilized apt. in the midst of NYC!

  197. Chuck Says:

    Lyle Overbay apparently decided to sign with Boston..he’s on their NRI list.

  198. Bob Says:

    Bryce Brentz shot himself.

  199. Raul Says:

    On purpose?

  200. Chuck Says:

    No..dumbass was cleaning his gun and shot himself in the leg.

  201. Cameron Says:

    He’s lucky it was just his leg. Heard quite a few tales of heads getting blown off that way.

  202. Bob Says:

    The Indians signed Dice-K. Tells you Francona likes him.

  203. Bob Says:

    The Indians also signed Jason Giambi.

  204. Cameron Says:

    Ahem… *dusts off Tribe cap and puts it on*

    …No, really doesn’t feel any different than being a Royals fan. You get shit on either way. The only difference is the tailgating is a lot worse in Cleveland.

  205. Raul Says:

    How is the tailgating in KC?

  206. Cameron Says:

    You can smell the barbecue a good few miles away from the stadiums on a good day. It’s glorious.

  207. Bob Says:

    The Mariners have some concerns with the elbow of King Felix, so the deal is not yet complete.

  208. Chuck Says:

    I like Francona..he did a damn good job in Boston.

    But once Theo started believing the press, then things started going south.

    Theo is a smart businessman, but baseball is a foreign language to him.

    Let the baseball guys make the baseball decisions and you make the business decisions..once he started involving himself in what happens on the field, he undercut Francona’s authority, with the results being clubhouse discord and poor performance.

  209. Raul Says:

    If you can get along with Francona, chances are the problem is with you, not him.

  210. Mike Felber Says:

    King Felix, despite being an innings eater most years & a decent bat for a hurler, hs 3 times been in the top AL WAR for pitchers: #1 in 10, 5 & 7. Do you folks thinks this underrates him?

  211. Raul Says:

    I think that’s the wrong use of the word “despite”.

  212. Bob Says:

    Most people say the 3 best pitchers in the AL are in no order
    1. Verlander
    2. Price
    3. Felix
    4. How is he being underrated?

  213. Bob Says:

    Mike, I understand your question now. Thanks to Dunkin Donuts coffee.

  214. Chuck Says:

    I don’t pay attention to WAR.

    The HHS guys are at it again with the Rick Reuschel HOF stuff again, that should tell you everything you need to know about the credibility of the stat.

    Felix is underrated because he pitches for a bad team in a small market.

  215. Cameron Says:

    Rick Rueschel’s mother doesn’t think Rick Rueschel belongs in the Hall of Fame.

  216. Bob Says:

    Jonathon Papelbon used Toradal with the Sox.

  217. Raul Says:

    Clayton Kershaw should be in any conversation regarding the best pitchers in the game.

    Felix is underrated in the media, not by people who actually know about baseball.

    Any overrated player ranking will dwell on any given New York Yankee. I’ve made it rather clear that Ian Kinsler is, in my opinion, the most overrated player in baseball.

    The most underrated? I don’t know. I lean toward Ben Zobrist and Alex Gordon. Though maybe Zobrist isn’t as underrated as I feel.

  218. Cameron Says:

    Ben “WAR called me a thirty million dollar player one year” Zobrist? He’s good, but he’s overrated by stat nerds.

  219. Chuck Says:

    Any list of underrated players should start with Andrew McCutchen.

    He plays for the Dodgers or Yankees..holy shit.

  220. Mike Felber Says:

    The big/small market conundrum is what makes folks underrated often, but sometimes it is violated-Roy White, arguably Chris Chambliss, were underrated due to being overshadowed by straw-stirrers & their total game/small things being under-recognized.

    You pay some attention to WAR Chuck. Not only citing it frequently to generally complain, but more than once folks have cited it as a sign of the Apocalypse that you quoted the #s rWAr used in describing a player.

    I believe I used the word “depite” correctly there. My point was that all other things being equal, more IP = creating more value.

    Bob, you referred to what most folks believe. I asked if WAR underrates him, since in just the AL, his best (& only top 10) WAR finished as #1, 5 & 7.

    I am actually supplying a free shot at WAR if you like: Besides recognizing him as the best in the league in ‘10, anyone think his other bests are just 5 & 7?

  221. Mike Felber Says:

    Amongst pitchers that is; WAR for pitchers.

  222. Bob Says:

    Yes, I initially fucked-up. Sorry

  223. Bob Says:

    Kate Upton is the SI cover girl again. Thankfully SI did not fuck-up

  224. Chuck Says:

    Fair enough, Mike. Some attention.

    Although “paying attention” for explanatory purposes or using it aren’t the same thing.

  225. Bob Says:

    The A’s signed Hideki Okajima.

  226. Chuck Says:

    Why?

  227. Bob Says:

    To provide quality depth for Oakland’s bullpen this season. Either that or Beane screwed up. The reality is that this is a harmless minor-league deal with an invite to spring training sign.

  228. Raul Says:

    Billy Beane traded a power hitting 1B for what will amount to the 12th best SS in baseball or something this year.

    He already screwed up

  229. Chuck Says:

    If there’s one team I’d put money on for a regression this year it’s Oakland.

    Last year was a fluke.

    Their roster looked like the movie Major League..a bunch of overachieving dirtbags.

    Reddick hits 32 bombs to go along with a .305 OBP..which one do you think is the most repeatable?

    Cespedes?

    Brandon Moss hits 21 homers in 84 games…right..lol…the guy couldn’t make the friggin’ Pirates.

    Carter hits 16 homers in 67 games and they trade him for a guy who won’t start?

    Yeah..they’re lucky Houston’s in the division now.

  230. John Says:

    I agree – I think Oakland will be in the 80-83 win territory.

    Baltimore is a surer bet though. Somehow I don’t see them being 20 games over .500 in 1-run ballgames again.

  231. Chuck Says:

    Houston’s website still lists Brett Wallace as their 1B.

    They have Pena and now Carter, who they didn’t get to sit..probably Pena at first and Carter DH, with Wallace being insurance in case Matt Dominguez bombs at third.

  232. Chuck Says:

    Good point, John.

  233. Raul Says:

    It pains me to be so pessimistic about the Yankees, but I don’t know how this team makes the playoffs.

    The AL East in 2013 is going to be…sorry…it SHOULD be a two team race between Tampa and Toronto.

    Yankees should thank the heavens if they win 87 games. I know that sounds like a really good win total but not for NY. I think they will finish above .500, but not much more than that.

    I think Toronto takes it with like 96 wins.

    Tampa has great pitching, but the average OBP of their infield (Loney, Escobar, Johnson) doesn’t look very good. Also, Matt Joyce was a monster against RHP in the 1st half last year. He was terrible against LHP the entire year. If he can re-capture that hot streak against Righties for the entire year and Tampa can get a good platoon bat against Lefties, they will be in solid shape.

  234. Raul Says:

    Wait,

    I forgot that Wil Myers is taking Joyce’s full-time job.

    So, that part is settled. My mistake.

  235. Chuck Says:

    Myers is starting the season in Durham.

    Super two date is May 14.

  236. Raul Says:

    Great. Matt Joyce has 6 weeks to keep his job

  237. Chuck Says:

    The Mets have no argument on this Michael Bourn compensation issue, I don’t get why they just don’t let it go.

  238. John Says:

    I think I’d rather DH Joyce than Scott.

    Here’s an interesting option: platooning Ryan Roberts and Luke Scott.

    Which you can do, because you have the ever versatile Benjamin War Zobrist.

    Against RHP: Zobrist (2B), Scott (DH), Joyce (RF)
    Against LHP: Zobrist (RF), Roberts (2B), Joyce (DH)

    With Myers being the every day LF.

  239. Raul Says:

    I think it’s a little unfair to Zobrist for the Rays to shuffle him between 2B and RF.

    I’d want to keep him in one position as much as possible.

  240. Chuck Says:

    Not sure what the Rays will do….obviously, when Myers gets called up he’s the everyday RF.

    Roberts is listed as the starter at second, with Kelly Johnson as his backup, so Zobrist’s days as a 2B are likely over.

    Both Scott and Joyce are the same (meaning they suck), so why they’re both still around is a question.

    Zobrist is a free agent after this year..there are two club options that could be bought out for a total of $3 million.

    I could see the Rays trading him.

  241. Lefty33 Says:

    http://www.mcall.com/sports/mc-piazza-book-20130211,0,3420317.story

    Piazza in his book comes “clean” by admitting to using greenies, Ephedra, and andro. If you’re going to hold out McGwire for andro use…then I would assume that Piazza while not screwed because of the better resume at the very least has a loooooong wait ahead of him and I would expect that he’ll take a dive big time in the voting next year.

  242. Raul Says:

    If he’s admitting to greenies, ephedra and andro, why would you believe he limited himself to that?

    Frankly, it’s possible Piazza juiced. It is certain that Bagwell did.

  243. Cameron Says:

    It’s possible. Hell, it’s possible anyone from the era did. For now, BotD for me. Just a little naive voice in my head telling me if he admitted to all that, him not you ask why not admit to steroids if he did them, y’know? Plus, I really like Mike Piazza and I want to give him BotD.

  244. Chuck Says:

    Season preview is live..

    http://www.bigleaguesmag.com/

    255 pages..surf around, check out the free stuff..I did a few of the prospect rankings..it’s a subscription site..not too expensive..

    Season preview is 255 pages.

  245. Chuck Says:

    Michael Bourn signed with the Indians..4/48

  246. John Says:

    Sounds about right. A little surprised at the Indians committing over 100 million to their OF though.

  247. Raul Says:

    If Bourn and Swisher can get on base, then the middle of Cleveland’s lineup becomes trouble, because you know Carlos Santana can get on base, and Kipnis should be play better.

    The trouble is that guys like Swisher and Santana have proven to be very streaky. And it could be LOB/DoublePlay City in Cleveland this summer.

    Shit, and with the young Chisenhall and overall bad Mark Reynolds…I don’t envy Francona too much.

  248. Raul Says:

    Kipnis is a 2B.
    Lawrie plays 3B.

    Who has the better 2013?

  249. Chuck Says:

    My Brewers preview is on the “teaser” slide on the homepage.

    Take it easy on me, John. :)

    http://www.bigleaguesmag.com/

  250. Chuck Says:

    Scott Boras does it again.

    Find some dumbass GM who runs his team off a spreadsheet and you can get some guy with an OPS+ of 99 a 4/48 contract.

  251. Raul Says:

    Well done, from what I read, Chuck.

  252. Chuck Says:

    Thanks

  253. Mike Felber Says:

    It is possible that Piazza, Bagwell or anyone used. But them being big guys proves absolutely nothing.

    I can be naive Cam, but of course he might admit to all LEGAL substances, or those not banned by MLB, & still be guilty. Though we do not know either way.

    While I never liked the precursor/pro-hormones like andro, no way they should ever keep anyone out of the HOF. Whether or how much andro specifically helps has long been in debate. However, it was fuilly legal & sold everywhere then, & MLB had no ban on it. If there were no ‘roids &/or HgH, of course you cannot blame them for using.

    Big Mac agreed to stop after it was found ion his locker. But it was completely kosher then. Problem was his lies & silence about using the Real Stuff.

  254. Raul Says:

    You saying that it’s possible for a guy to gain 40 pounds of muscle proves nothing.

  255. Mike Felber Says:

    It means a Hell of a lot if it is true. And I have documented in Talmudic detail, repeatedly & from authoritative sources, just how much muscle guys of different sizes can gain-naturally In total over their lives, & starting from a certain level, how much more.

    A brief primer, & confirmed on this MD’s web site, which references many other expert opinions & web sites. http://www.bodyrecomposition.com.

    A guy starting young & less bulky than average-though not emaciated-might gain 40-50 lbs. of pure muscle if he maxes out his potential. 97% of that over 5 years, IF he works out very effectively, consistently, scientifically, & hard.

    But that person was starting out as a fairly skinny kid. So it really is 30-40 lbs. of skeletal muscle that he ends up carrying over an AVERAGE man: of his height & bone structure. If someone has particularly poor or excellent genetic potential-due mostly to hormonal factors & the size of his bone structure
    he may exceed or fall short of this.

    This does NOT include water weight, food in/going through the system, or body fat. This is born out repeatedly in observation & anecdotes: check with others like me who have been lifting, observing, reading about it, & asking questions.

    Academically or empirically, What I am claiming is not in debate.

  256. Mike Felber Says:

    Now Chuck shifted the #s claimed for Baggy-last time he said he was somewhat heavier than the 215 I have repeatedly seen him listed at. So how much actual muscle he added is not entirely clear. Yet early in his career, he had around an average man’s build in bulk (tough of course quite athletic).

    Thus given his also fairly conventional bone structure-assuming he does not have big wrists/ankles & we did not notice since he was lean overall-30-40 lbs. of pure muscle on top of that naturally is the max. anyone could expect he could add.

    And 1/2 of that within 1 & a 1/2 years, ~ 88% within 3, 97% in 5. Due to the well understood law of diminishing returns as one approaches their potential.

    Now someone could cheat & NOT reach even their natural potential due to training & nutrition, or cheat & EXPAND what they could do absent PEDs. So it is not so easy to know.

    For his average height & LEAN, 215 would be ~ the limit one could expect he could attain. There are rare exceptions. And if he was not so lean at his max bulk, then he would weigh more like 230.

    But can you see how these things are NOT so easy to tell? What is precisely someone’s bone structure, max. weight, body fat composition, even if weight is accurately reported: is usually ambiguous!

    Only when you get to at LEAST the gains of a Sosa is it possible to say with some certitude that he used-absent other evidence. Since he started even lighter than Bagman, 165 lbs., & was listed at 6′. Clearly he was not emaciated then, he did not have a very large natural potential.

  257. Raul Says:

    None of those guys are professional baseball players.
    So, none of that is relevant to any discussion here.

    I don’t know how many times that needs to be explained.

    Baseball has been played for well over 130 years. The nature of the game and its schedule prohibits that type of muscle growth naturally. Does not happen.

    If you want to hinge your argument on what could happen, under ideal circumstances, with the ideal training regimen, by all means continue with this masturbation.

    Even if one was to grant that it was possible, its probability is so far below 1% it is laughable. To think that scenario is probable in the greatest offensive and pharmacological tainted era in the history of mankind is preposterous.

  258. Mike Felber Says:

    I never suggested that most of the very bulky players in the steroid era were natural, why would you think something like that? The question remains the vaguery of who might have used PEDs. You usually cannot know without good specific evidence.

    You never needed to make you case more than once re: how the rigors of baseball effect the ability to gain muscle. I addressed that immediately.

    For 1/2 the year there is likely an impact upon how much bulk one can gain. It need not take more than working out 2-3 X a week for something under an hour, so it is not the time-it is not like ballplayers have no time to go out, chase woman, drink, etc. But the intense workouts & being sore in recovery will likely impact performance.

    So gains may be small, or usually at least maintaining mass is not hard with decent workouts. Maintenance is dramatically easier.

    So it can take close to 2X the time I quoted to reach those %s of genetic potential. Thus your hesitation is reasonable. Yet even if we cut this schedule in HALF, one can reach more than 1/2 of their genetic potential within 3 years.

    And if one is just starting, it is much easier to gain mass.

    The 130 + years is hardly relevant, since nobody was even TRYING to get bulky, hardly anyone lifted weights=at least seriously-until well into the ’80’s.

    Again, if you want to be fair, accurate & scien-terrific (sic) about it, you must acknowledge that in many cases, the total amount & rapidity of muscle gains gains could have been achieved naturally, OR through cheating. And others like A-Rod can cheat either without great effect, or (like him) they took stuff that maximized strength, but not hypertrophy.

    Most are not expanding at the rate of supernovas-Aaron Boone, & it is only the more extreme cases that reach Canseco-like proportions. FOlks want to know they know, but in most cases you cannot know just looking at a guy: you cannot be reasonably certain either way, if cheating or not!

  259. Raul Says:

    “The 130 + years is hardly relevant, since nobody was even TRYING to get bulky, hardly anyone lifted weights=at least seriously-until well into the ’80’s.”

    False.

    “The question remains the vaguery of who might have used PEDs. You usually cannot know without good specific evidence.”

    Yet here we sit, roughly 3 years into you claiming Bagwell is clean — when there is no evidence that he is — given his body type, his massive growth, his unprecedented power surge from the minors to the majors that has never been seen before.

    The fact is this, Mike: For all your blabbering masturbation about what is achievable through clean weight training, you can’t provide the name of a single professional baseball player who has gained 30 or 40 pounds of muscle while clean.

    Not one.

  260. Raul Says:

    Happy 48th birthday, Ruben Amaro.

  261. Bob Says:

    Lawrie will be better than Kipnes if you ask me. Though it should be fun to moniter.

  262. Raul Says:

    Some people think Lawrie can win the batting title some day.
    We’ll see. So far, he and Kipnis have had similar starts to their careers.

    Lawrie is like 3 years younger though.

  263. Bob Says:

    I think Lawrie is headed towards a breakout year. Though I like Kipnes.

  264. Chuck Says:

    Oh, Jesus Christ, not this shit again.

  265. Raul Says:

    Saw a picture of CC Sabathia on the Yankees page of MLB.com

    He looks like he dropped a lot of weight.

  266. Chuck Says:

    Wow…he could be in line for a Subway commercial.

    You know, CC is a bulky guy, and likely has been his whole life, which means his delivery is a natural one built around it.

    If he drops 40 pounds and loses some leg strength or upper body strength it could change his arm angle or slot, and could lead to an injury.

    Losing a significant amount of weight would add to his lifespan, but could shorten his career.

  267. Cameron Says:

    From the Top 10 Storylines story on mlb.com.

    “8. The future is now for the Royals.

    General manager Dayton Moore ended the reconstruction of the Royals and put them in a win-now mode by trading one of baseball’s best prospects, Wil Myers, to get James Shields and Wade Davis. Moore has done a fabulous job collecting prospects, but 2013 will be about winning. There appears to be too much talent on the roster to fail.”

    …Just wait for my annual AL Central Preview.

  268. Chuck Says:

    The PTBNL in the Myers/Shields trade is…make sure you’re sitting down…

    Elliot Johnson.

    What’s the matter Dayton, Reid Brignac turn his phone off?

  269. Bob Says:

    The Mariners and Felix resolved their concerns.

  270. Chuck Says:

    This Toradal thing with the Red Sox is going to get ugly, and not just with Boston.

    Google “side affects”

  271. Bob Says:

    Clay Buchholz

  272. Chuck Says:

    Yep

  273. Mike Felber Says:

    Nobody can PROVE a negative Raul, it is not possible, you could theoretically be, say, juicing or chopping up prostitutes & wearing their skin as coats/masks.

    If you assert a premise, it only makes sense & is meaningful to tell us WHY you are right. few lifted weights, & very few seriously & to gain BULK, until the ’80’s. A few like Ryan did earlier- but he did not get bulky. And even he was an exception, there was a big bias against lifting, it was falsely assumed that if you lifted you would become muscle bound.

    When someone makes a significant & sincere effort to establish a case, it is neither accurate nor kind to repeatedly dismiss their efforts as “masturbation”. And my claims were 100% correct.

    If you still repeat years later, & after me just saying so several times again, that I claim(ed) Bagwell is clean: you have not been paying attention. Why? I have repeatedly said I do not know about him. Though I did say Thomas & Schilling are overwhelmingly likely to be clean, due to their uniquely outspoken positions when they did not need to do so, + The Big Hurt’s natural build.

    NOBODY had that kind of power surge from the minors naturally? None bulked up naturally 7 due to maturation when not far into their ’20’s? Trouble is, I name men, you will likely again assert absent evidence that they must have juiced.

    Which is not a reasonable argument.

  274. Bob Says:

    Mike, Schilling was called before Congress. So he needed to say something to placate people. Secondly, I thought Raul or Lefty came up with a pretty compelling case against Schilling about 2 years ago after dissecting his career.
    I am with you on Thomas. And being outspoken means jackshit, as Raul pointed out with the Catholic Church, which in 2 weeks will be sans a leader.
    And remember, masterbation is not harmful.

  275. Chuck Says:

    Here you go John..

    Instead of blaming the old fart crowd for not seeing the benefit of taking sabermetrics seriously, blame this guy instead.

    “It’s not sabermetrics, it’s sabermatricians”.

  276. Chuck Says:

    Link would help.

    http://mlbreports.com/2013/02/12/mlbreports100prospects/

  277. Bob Says:

    Larry Bird’s son was arrested for aalegedly trying to his his ex-girlfriend with his car.

  278. Chuck Says:

    Larry bird has a 35 year old daughter he’s never met and wants nothing to do with..so, fuck him and his parenting skills.

  279. Mike Felber Says:

    I recall he eagerly volunteered to go before Congress Bob, + unlike almost all he has consistently spoken to the p[ress & through social media condemning PEDs without provocation. The Catholic Church is a poor analogy, since like most all ballplayers, they have only responded or spoken about the issue when forced to, that is necessary for their self interest, due to unfolding events. Innocents are much more unlikely to aggressively initiate & perpetuate condemnation if they are using. I do not see a career arc for Schilling necessitating PEDs, i recall that debate. He was injured a lot before, & like Randy Johnson came into his opwn later in his career.

    Wanking is great for ya, that is distinct from labeling careful & respectful airtight & relevant cases as same.;

  280. Chuck Says:

    “that I claim(ed) Bagwell is clean: you have not been paying attention. Why? I have repeatedly said I do not know about him.”

    Exactly, so why argue then, other than to hear yourself talk?

    You wouldn’t know Bagwell if he sat down next to you on the subway, so all your “I know what I’m talking about because I go to the gym” is far less credible than any circumstantial conversational proof offered here.

    So, again, move on.

  281. Jim Says:

    You know, this site would be a lot more interesting if there was a general ban on the discussion of PEDs and allegations of this or that player taking them.

  282. Raul Says:

    Salud, Jim.

    Spoken like a true gentleman.

  283. Cameron Says:

    Before this gentleman’s agreement kicks in, let me say that if Greg MAddux is found to or admits to using PEDs (Which I severely doubt) I may in fact cry I love him as a player so much. The dude is my idol.

  284. Mike Felber Says:

    Why should we not be free to talk about everything Jim, politely? Discussing one thing you do not find engaging does not prevent you from commenting & enjoying anything else.

    Why is that “gentlemanly” Chuck? YOU regularly stir things up by making statements about Bagwell & others being dirty. It does not seem “gentlemanly” to do so, then try to be censorious & tell me to move on.

    Why would you believe I would not recognize Bagwell? When you say something like that, it seems you are not dedicated to the truth, but merely want to say something disparaging.

    Even if that was true, it would have no bearing upon whether I was correct. And I never claimed I know the truth merely due to working out. I have cited authoritative sources & documentation repeatedly.

    But the most puzzling thing is your confusion-& negative assumptions-about what I am saying & why. Claiming one does not know is totally different from assuming someone is dirty. Clearly I have argued that the evidence is not there-one cannot prove a negative.

    And I personally described why I believe Thomas & Schilling are overwhelmingly likely to be clean.

    Anyway there should be zero hostility & belittling about differing opinions. I cannot think of another web site where you could keep saying these guys are dirty-& based on no solid evidence-& NOT ascuire a cavalcade of somewhere between objections & outrage.

    At least you should not object to carefully constructed, polite rebuttals when you continually state someone is guilty.

  285. Raul Says:

    3 years of this Bagwell and Schilling shit is enough. That’s what you don’t understand, Mike…because you are incapable of making an argument and moving on.

    Incapable.

    That’s one hell of a character flaw.

  286. Lefty33 Says:

    “Why should we not be free to talk about everything Jim, politely?”

    Fucking duh “Felbs”, it’s because it’s the same recycled-rehashed-beat the horse until its dead, done and decomposed opinions that have been stagnating this site for eons.

    The “battle lines” have been drawn here ages ago on more or less every topic and certain things regarding metrics, HOF, and PED usage have all been fucked to death and what Jim said has plenty of truth to it.

    What’s the point of bringing up anything in this realm up because it’s all been said ad nauseum?

    The truth of the PED issue is that everybody was more then likely dirty if you want to include things like Ephedra, amphetamines plus all of the various stimulants plus the various Ritalin/Adderall offshoots and byproducts that no one had prescriptions for and were obtained illegally/fraudulently.

    Just because Schilling has professed innocence means zero.

    The era in which he played clearly was a hotbed for illegal drug activity and NO ONE deserves a free pass just because they say they’re innocent. This is not a court of law where you’re supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. This is the court of public opinion where you’re crucified to a wall of suspicion until proven otherwise especially when player after player from the era you played in has either been proven, highly suspected of or just outright lied about their PED usage.

    “I cannot think of another web site where you could keep saying these guys are dirty-& based on no solid evidence-& NOT ascuire a cavalcade of somewhere between objections & outrage.”

    You truly are an internet hillbilly.

    “At least you should not object to carefully constructed, polite rebuttals when you continually state someone is guilty.”

    Once again, who the fuck are you to be telling anyone how their arguments should be constructed or what is or is not proper form for this site or any other site that you do not own?

    Jim, Chuck, Raul or whomever can be as nice or as foul as they want to be.

    Don’t like it?

    Fuck off and leave.

    No one gives a shit about your personal opinions on how websites should be run/moderated and/or about how the people participating on them should interact with each other.

    You always like to throw out that more people don’t come here because of the supposed vile nature of the site, yet I would bet you my entire 401K that you have chased away/kept away just as many people with your holier than thou-self righteous-contextually retarded tone that has stunk this site up for years.

    The one that needs to change is not Jim, Chuck, Cameron, Raul or anyone else.

    As usual, it’s still you.

  287. Raul Says:

    Joe Girardi believes the Yankees can win 95 games this season.

    Then again, this is the guy who believes removing Skittles from the locker room leads to more wins.

  288. Raul Says:

    Yogi Berra won’t be at camp this year. Well, he is 87 years old.

    This guy made his ML debut on September 22, 1946. Fucking Stalin was still alive back then.

  289. Bob Says:

    The Piratess signed Brandon Inge, while the Mariners cut Mike Carp. The Red Sox are considering Carp.

  290. Cameron Says:

    If they can play first, they’ll consider anyone. I’m surprised they aren’t trying to sign kids from Dominican Little League at this point.

  291. Raul Says:

    WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP SIGNING BRANDON INGE?????

    This guy is terrible. I don’t understand it. Does he have State secrets or some shit?

  292. Bob Says:

    Defensive replacement for very little money. Though he may have state secrets.

  293. Chuck Says:

    Well said, Lefty.

    Hopefully the message coming from someone other than Raul or myself will be enough to sink in…finally.

  294. Cameron Says:

    Youk now how they say you learn something new every day? …The thing I learned today is how to say gangbang in Danish. Gruppeknald (pronounced cho (Hebrew style ch, think Channukah) – pik – neld.

    …I wish I didn’t know that.

  295. Raul Says:

    Useless information of the day?

  296. Cameron Says:

    Pretty much.

  297. Chuck Says:

    Walk into the group home shower again without knocking, Cam?

    “Holy cow, just went up for a quick shit, shower and shave and walked right smack into the middle of a Gruppeknald.”

  298. Bob Says:

    I’m going to try to use the word the next time play Scrabble.

  299. Cameron Says:

    Nope Chuck, German arthouse movie.

  300. Mike Felber Says:

    Lefty, it makes no sense & is hypocritical to complain when someone politely states there opinions: yet they reserve the right to do the same. And it is ever worse when they (you here) are nasty.

    You also have notpaid attention. Trivial that I said I am not ‘theFelbs’. More unfortunate is that clearly, & I have just said, that it is not ME that keeps bringing up the issue/saying those specific guys are dirty.

    Many were dirty, but not all however you stretch it: & most all here do not consider, nor we were arguing about, things besides ‘roids & HgH.

    If I was wrong about what is done on any decent & normal web site, you would be able to site specifics. Yet you are profane in acting like I am out of line to tell folks what is decent?! That is extremely bass-ackwards. If vicious racism, homophobia, sexism, threats are wrong: any normal adult can see that personal insults, disparagement, & cursing at folks are ad hominum, inappropriate & morally wrong.

    I never claimed just because someone professes innocence that they are. I have been ultra-clear that 1) they should not be assumed guilty absent substantive evidence, & 2) that I believe that the only 2 men who keep beinging up the issue would likely not do so if dirty.

    And it is deluded to think folks 1) cannot skip content if they are not interested, & 2) that me answering politely ANOTHER who keeps bringing up the issue is ME stagnating anything.

    Truth is, you can see who continually, & admittedly to get a REACTION-likes to endlessly bring up who is dirty, or yet again BRING UP Raines is not fit for the HOF, etc.

    You have no reason to declare me the problem. Also while many like Jim have never been “vile”, you cannot stand to hear the truth: to be vicious-or excuse others doing so- & say I should leave if I do not like abuse is Beyond The Pale.

  301. Brautigan Says:

    Look up the definition of obtuse: “Blunt, stupid mother-fucker”.

  302. Mike Felber Says:

    No, that is a personal insult Brautigan. It is beneath you. If I am arong about any point at all, you should be able to dispute it.
    At a certain point a collective Bully mentality takes effect. It did with Shaun & John Q.: even if they were factually wrong, it is vicious & immoral to degrade folks & drive them away. Which is what happened.

    Some of the most basic facts re: what i claimed have been misstated. And it has NEVER been me who keeps aggravating things by regularly, gratuitously & absent evidence claiming specific guys are dirty: & then complaining, sometimes being ABUSIVE, when it is politely disputed.

    It is disingenuous in the extreme to then act like the person rationally responding is the problem: especially when one is abusive. That is pathological.

    Again, we do not see that on any respectable forum, even a rough one like East Side Boxing. I have said nothing that the outside world would find wrong, have not been mean or contemptuous.

    It is good that some have not used their full name, since it would defame their reputation & credibility. Abuse is abuse: it is just easier to do so from a distance, 7 not deal with or even acknowledge one’s Dark Side.

  303. Chuck Says:

    “it is vicious & immoral to degrade folks & drive them away”

    Like you drove away Hossrex and Patrick?

    Pot, Kettle.

  304. Chuck Says:

    You have expressed you opinion many times regarding the steriod issue Mike, and we would prefer not to hear it again.

    Bagwell used, Piazza used, Biggio used, Schilling likely used, Lenny Dykstra used, so did Darren Daulton and Nomar and Brad Fullmer and Armando Rios and about 1000 minor leaguers you never heard of.

    If you need a needle with DNA or an affadavit or an admission in front of Congress to be convinced, then that’s your right.

    The problem is your sanctimonious preaching about your experiences at the gym, like you have more than any of us, which hold NO credibility, especially considering the subject is something you know nothing of..baseball.

    Just like my 20 years of watching Tim Raines play carries more weight than WAR. If you like WAR, fine, if WAR says Raines is a HOFer, fine, but you’re in a community who knows better, and no matter how much you argue, nothing’s going to change.

    Which is why Shaun and John Q were “forced out”, not by the expression of their opinion, but by their own ignorances and their inability or unwillingness to learn from people smarter than they are. Which is a fault you’ve continually shown here as well. And, giving credit where it’s due, I have a certain amount of respect for you for sticking to your guns and continuing to come back here despite knowing everyone believing you’re full of shit.

    What Bob the Bodybuilder does is in no way relevant or similar to what a baseball player would do, so using what you see in comparison to nothing you’ve experienced is fiction.

    So, again, the problem here Mr. Felber is you.

    You can change, you can stay the same and take the abuse you deserve, or, as Lefty said, you can go somewhere else.

    Shit or get off the pot.

  305. Mike Felber Says:

    Hoss was bright & posted some intriguing things. He was friendly with me, though did not like some honest, respectful disagreements-with a few folks, & you too had fought tooth & nail for a long while early on. HE eventually took on a wholly (unholy?) different, mean-ish, “tough guy” tone. As Cam did for a while: I am just being honest when I say that it seems clear this was to fit in here. If he left due to disagreeing with me, this is not my fault.

    I do not know what the case might be with Patric,we did not butt heads much, just differed amicably on things like RBIs. If someone is not personally abusive, disdainful or similarly irrational, they should not be blamed if folks leave.

    Though sometimes the messenger is shot.

  306. Raul Says:

    Dear lord.

  307. Mike Felber Says:

    If you TRULY believe folks deserve ABUSE because you feel they are wrong Chuck, I feel very sad & sorry for you.

    That is the worst kind of playground/jock stereotype mentality, & flies nowhere amongst decent folks. It will merely earn you the contempt you project upon others merely for disagreeing-should anyone know who has such a hateful attitude.
    Some part of you sees how that is insane to justify, right?

    Shaun & John would NEVER have left without the continual, nasty, mocking personal attacks. Most forums would never permit that. And your arguments against them were opinions-sometimes just premises-not written in stone.

    So YOU & others can constantly express-nay BRING UP ENDLESSLY-who you think is dirty, but if some like me disagree, that is not OK? That is hypocritical intolerance.

    Opinion amongst those who watched Raines play if far from unanimous Chuck. As is the beliefs HERE whether he belongs in the HOF. For the record, I both do not use only WAR to argue for him, nor do I think he is the most worthy player not elected. But you adore AGITATING things by bringing him up regularly, then complaining when John or I make a case for him!

    It is not sanctimonious to describe carefully potential for bulk. And I keep stating that yes, during the season it is unlikely one can maximize, may just MAINTAIN, gains.

    But some ballplayers have been lifting like strength athletes, at least during the loooong off season. So even if it takes twice as long, they CAN add the same bulk eventually.

  308. Chuck Says:

    “Chuck, I feel very sad & sorry for you”

    I don’t care what you think, Mike.

    “but if some like me disagree, that is not OK? That is hypocritical intolerance.

    It’s not normal to have a comment on the SAME subject EVERY GODDAMN TIME it comes up.

    We KNOW how you feel, just shut the fuck up already.

    On and on and on and on and on…just stop.

    “then complaining when John or I make a case for him!”

    And on and on and on and on….

  309. Chuck Says:

    Baseball season starts soon, so no more talk about steriods and the HOF status of some undeserving players.

    Which means we talk BASEBALL.

    Which means no Felber for eight months, because he doesn’t know enough to stay conversational.

    See you in November, Mike.

    Have a nice summer.

  310. Raul Says:

    You should probably stop coming to this website, Mike.

    Nobody cares for your constant judgments on how people should treat each other. Nobody cares that you feel sorry for Chuck or anyone.

    And if you can’t make a point and move on, you’re just contributing to the staleness of the site.

    Not once, ever, has anyone said there wasn’t room for disagreement. There is.
    But there isn’t room for your higher-than-thou attitude. And you don’t even watch baseball. You haven’t shown any ability to comment on the current state of the game in the years you’ve posted here.

    Maybe this isn’t the place for you.

  311. Mike Felber Says:

    I have posted throughout the year for years Chuck. It IS true that I do not follow current developments as closely as you folks. But I have & will make a ton of comments about baseball, current & past. Don’t know why you suggest I cannot or have not done so.

    What id Fully Illogical & hypocritical is that YOU & others here CONSTANTLY comment on the same sujects I do. And YOU continually BRING UP the SAME subjects! It is completely normal & what you folks do to comment on anything brought up.

    What is NOT normal & psychologically healthy is to keep bringing up the same subjects & arguments you are allegedly sick of, then you condemn not anyone ELSE for commenting, but the man you disagree with.

    So YOU are not moving on, & Raul & whoever else comments: which is fine, as long as you do not mistreat others who do the same thing as you!

    Oh, but I do NOT keep bringing up the same subjects & lambasting others for commenting. Though to your credit, at least, more than once, you have admitted to baiting/messing with folks. So you are honest about that dark side.

  312. Mike Felber Says:

    Raul you cannot accurately speak for all, there has been much differing opinions here. Plus some have left because, & others have lamented, the mean & abusive tone here. It is blaming the victim to dismiss a non-abusive critique of actual CRUELTY by saying it is “sanctimonious”. Yeah, I guess you could say the same ’bout anything: Hitler, racism, assault…How dare someone try to speak up for decency.

    Now I canceled TV many years ago. So other than catching a bit of a sports event outside occ./videos, I do not watch games. So what? I should be as welcome as anyone. I have commented on much current stuff, Trout, Cabrera, awards discussions, controversies, pennant races…

  313. Raul Says:

    I have the direct word of no less than 6 people that you are the sole reason they stopped using this site.

    No one here tries to be a big shot and kick people to the curb.
    There’s little authority to boot anyone away from the site. And the fact is, we’re all grown adults here and nobody would give a shit to even try.

    But common sense tells a level-headed person that if they’re always in the same petty bullshit, fighting the same uphill argument and always gets shot down, maybe this isn’t the audience for them. Especially if they show no capacity to learn. And you haven’t learned anything in your time here.

    This isn’t the place to speak about decency. It just isn’t.

    There are maybe 5 people who keep this shit alive…and we can take a poll: None of us gives a flying fuck what you think is decent language and behavior.

    If you have a sound opinion on whether Didi Gregorious will be a better player than Jurickson Profar, speak up. Otherwise, maybe High Heat Stats or FanGraphs or Good Housekeeping.com is the place for you.

  314. Mike Felber Says:

    Really Raul, 6 people? I have not even had those many folks be nasty/gotten into spats with those many. So my naivety is warring with my reasonable skepticism here.

    I am not “shot down” in terms of either disproved, nor if several folks in a tiny pool (including you sometimes) are personally abusive or malicious, does any blame accrue to me. Me condemning this is not sanctimony nor petty.

    Any place where someone is vicious, abusive to individuals or whole groups, is the place to speak of decency. Others have even occasionally said folks have gone too far, & some have LEFT or been driven away due to that. Some adults are less “grown” than others.

    But thanks for your personal opinion. I will keep speaking up about baseball, & will CONTINUE not to be the one to bring up the “stale” issues. Nor shirk them.

  315. Cameron Says:

    Mike… Just shut up. I like you as a person, but… But just shut up. This is getting old and annoying.

  316. Mike Felber Says:

    Sorry Cam, you are wrong here too, & following the (tiny, somewhat incestuous) crowd. My facts & arguments are rock solid, I have never been mean, others bring up stuff & are hypocritical in trying to silence polite opposition OR hearing about their own ill temper. This is a bully mentality, & would rarely stand elsewhere.

    Anyway, if anyone actually cares about not hearing about it, they can stop complaining & showing malice. I have nothing new to add, so jus’ stop the provocations.

  317. Chuck Says:

    I started another thread so this conversation stops..and it better stay here Mike.

    I will delete any non-relevant comments you make.

    It’s baseball, or don’t bother.

  318. Mike Felber Says:

    As I said, that is fine Chuck. Though if others start discussing an issue-& I was replying to BASEBALL issues again here, & things OTHERS brought up yet again-or gets abusive, I reserve the right to respond.

    Like you & everyone else does all the time.

  319. Chuck Says:

    Comment #253..

    Lefty, in comment #241, had made reference to some quotes in Piazza’s book.

    Between, there were references to the magazine I write for, Jason Kipnis v. Brett Lawrie, whether the Rays would trade Ben Zobrist, among other things.

    You cherrypicked to respond to the steriod issue, even though it was a reference to a book and NOT a topic of discussion.

    So, you clearly didn’t stick to the topic and only responded to the steriod mention because you don’t know enough about anything else to be conversational.

    We’re not fucking stupid, Mike.

  320. Mike Felber Says:

    Just saw this note Chuck. We all are free to & continually bring up new issues. And many bring up the PED issue often, as did Lefty there. This is 100% appropriate. Folks are also free to continually bring up the same folks as guilty-without evidence, just assertions-& some do, though may not be useful-& should not be surprised if others object & it causes controversy.

    I know enough ’bout much to discuss, but 1) choose what I am most passionate about to do so., & 2) acknowledge(d) freely I do not follow current developments closely, so often have nothing to add there. This should be fine.

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