World Series Game 6 (and 7?) Live Blog

by JohnBowen

8 PM ET tonight, from Busch Stadium in St. Louis.

Rangers will send Colby Lewis, who was actually the only Texas starter with an ERA over 4; 14-10, 4.40 ERA, 1.213 WHIP, 7.6 K/9. He gave up a league-leading 35 home runs last season.

The Cardinals are sending 24-year old Jaime Garcia who followed up an outstanding rookie campaign by going 13-7, 3.56 ERA,  1.320 WHIP and 7.2 K/9 in 2011.

Right now, the clear front-runner for series MVP is Mike Napoli, who has had big RBI hits in back-to-back games – but if Lewis comes through for his second win of the series in the clinching game – the honor might be his.

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399 Responses to “World Series Game 6 (and 7?) Live Blog”

  1. Raul Says:

    Not a chance. The media has already decided Napoli is the man and the only way someone else takes it is if this series goes 7 and Pujols hits another homer or two.

    Garcia needs to go 7 innings. Minimum.

  2. Cameron Says:

    The media may have decided Napoli wins it, but fuck me if he hasn’t earned it. The guy hasn’t just had a lucky hit or two like some guys I can think of (how’s Edgar Renteria a Series MVP again?). Napoli’s pretty much been the guy who put the exclamation point in “Fuck your couch!” in all three Texas wins.

  3. Raul Says:

    He’s been fantastic. I agree.

    Furcal needs to get going for the Cardinals. Otherwise these middle hitters won’t see much.

  4. Chuck Says:

    Game’s going to be postponed.

  5. Raul Says:

    So they’re looking at Garcia in Game 6 and if the Cardinals win, Carpenter in Game 7?

    Would be interesting. Carpenter came up huge in that Game 5 with Philadelphia.

  6. Jim Says:

    To this point, Napoli is the MVP, but a chance exists for someone else.

  7. Chuck Says:

    Sure, Jim.

    Napoli won’t be the MVP if the Cardinals win.

    And the game has been officially rained out.

  8. Jim Says:

    my point exactly.

  9. Cameron Says:

    Thank god for rainouts. I went to take a nap at 4 o’clock, figured I’d wake up in time for the game and I could enjoy it all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

    …I woke up at 9:40. Saw no game and I was like “FUCK! I missed the Series?” Then I saw the rainout news on and breathed a sigh of relief.

  10. Bob Says:

    Scott Boras called the Yankees hoping to re-work the contract of Cano

  11. Jim Says:

    I imagine Boras’ pitch starts something like, we tear up the two option years and do 6 year $120M deal, oh and if there’s no deal, Cano pulls a Manny.

  12. Cameron Says:

    In the middle of CC’s negotiations? Dick move, Scott.

  13. brautigan Says:

    Why isn’t Boras calling the Nationals to re-work Jayson Werth’s contract?

  14. Chuck Says:

    Boras wasn’t even Cano’s agent when he signed, which means for the next two years he is representing Cano for free.

    That, and that alone, is why Boras wants a new deal.

  15. Chuck Says:

    Why aren’t the Yankees calling to re-work A-Rods.

    Boras: “Hey, Cash, we want you to drop the last two option years on Cano’s contract and sign him long-term.”

    Cashman: “Sure, Scott, if you drop the last six years of ARod’s deal.”


  16. Cameron Says:

    It’s all about the 10%, baby.

  17. Bob Says:

    @14. Spot-on.

  18. Raul Says:

    The Yankees still owe A-Rod 143 million dollars. And that doesn’t include milestone bonuses. Seems to me Alex better get back on the juice.

    Normally I’d say Cano is a prime candidate to get traded. But the Yankees hitting prospects are so weak that they might be forced to keep him.

    You know what they say. Always better to trade a guy too early than too late.

  19. brautigan Says:

    Raul: Ask the Reds (Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas) about trading a guy too early rather than too late.

    Or the Cardinals (trading Johnny Mize to the Giants at age 28).

  20. Chuck Says:

    I think Cano’s career path will mirror Alfonso Soriano’s.

    By the time his career is over, he’ll have more games as an outfielder.

  21. Raul Says:

    Today’s random baseball-reference page was Bob Tewksbury. Tewk was drafted by the Yankees in the 19th round of the 1981 MLB draft. Known as a control pitcher, Tewksbury got Mark McGwire to ground out on the famous Eephus pitch — TWICE in a game in 1997. The Eephus pitch might be my favorite pitch, ever. I saw El Duque throw it once and I loved it.

    Players born today:

    Hall of Famer Ralph Kiner. Kiner only played until he was 32 but his career was impressive nonetheless. He just made the 75% vote mark so his HOF Candidacy was not exactly a sure thing. Kiner is Dutch and Scot-Irish. Let the jokes begin. He’s also still alive (he’s 89).

    Pete Vukovich is 59. His Cy Young win in 1982 has been highly criticized over the years. Vukovich was like Fidrych…except he was possibly more insane. He currently works in the Pirates organization.

    Bill Swift is 49. A former pitcher with the Mariners, Giants and Rockies, Swift actually took the ERA title in 1992. According to Wikipedia, Swift now coaches high school baseball in Phoenix at Scottsdale Christian Academy — so Chuck probably knows him.

  22. brautigan Says:

    I remember when Steve Hamilton threw his pitch (it was called “the blooper”) to Cleveland’s Tony Horton. Hilarity ensued.

    There should be a you tube video on the Hamilton-Horton pitch.

  23. brautigan Says:


    Why do you think Cano is headed for the OF? His defense is pretty good, without being spectacular. He had 3 errors in 2010, 10 last year. That’s not bad, and his range is around average, maybe a little better than average.

    Not to mention, the guy has missed 11 games in the past 5 years. So he has figured out how to stay healthy at second base, which should also be a consideration. Not to mention, who else do they have to play second? Ramiro Pena? Cano has great value as a second baseman, not so great as a corner OF. The proposed move, if there is one, is not a good idea from where I sit.

  24. Raul Says:

    I’ll search for that Hamilton video, Braut.
    Thank you.

    I think Eduardo Nunez figures to stick around more than Ramiro Pena, but neither is really a solution at SS or 2B.

    Nunez has the better bat, but he’s got little plate discipline. Each player is figures to be a career backup. Although maybe the Brewers would love to have Nunez. He’s better than Betancourt, LOL.

  25. Chuck Says:

    Yes, I do, although it’s been awhile since I’ve seen him. He used to be a minor league pitching coach with Seattle.

    I honestly didn’t know he was living here.

  26. Cameron Says:

    A sandbag with a baseball glove duct taped to it is a better defender than Betancourt. …Wait, who put a #2 jersey on the sandbag?

  27. Cameron Says:

    Hilarity DOES ensue.

  28. John Says:

    Why would Cano move to the outfield?

  29. Cameron Says:

    Because the last Yankee second baseman worth a damn did? I don’t know. This is about as confusing as thinking Troy Tulowitzki should move to right field.

  30. John Says:

    Soriano was absolutely horrific in the field.

    With Cano, it seems like he’s had “mental moments” out there in the past, but all-in-all, he’s pretty decent.

  31. Raul Says:

    Cano is a good second baseman.

    And unlike Ian Kinsler, Cano doesn’t turn into Alexei Ramirez at the plate when he goes on the road.

  32. Cameron Says:

    ..Okay, yeah, the splits for Kinsler are a bit absurd, but he’s not necessarily a bad player. He’s kinda like Carlos Gonzalez, a good player turned great in a freak ballpark.

  33. Bob Says:

    Cameron and Brautigan, thanks for the footage of Hamilton and Horton.

  34. Raul Says:

    Have you seen his splits? His splits are the very definition of absurd.

  35. brautigan Says:

    Yeah, it’s too bad about Horton though. He had a thought disorder and tried to kill himself. He never returned to Major League baseball after that.

    It’s odd too, Topps never issued a Tony Horton baseball card. I never knew why. He played from 1964 to 1970 and never got a card.

  36. Cameron Says:

    From an OPS+ standpoint, it’s ridicoulous. 123-77 home-road.

  37. Chuck Says:

  38. John Says:

    Once again, that’s sOPS+ (notice how it avaerages to 100). Still worth noting, since a 23 (or 46, depending on how you view it) point sOPS+ swing is hugely extreme.

    But Kinsler’s actual road OPS+ is probably like 90-95.

  39. Mike Felber Says:

    This is a great short entry on the eephus pitch, with colorful names & history for it.

    I did not know the World-Serious (sic) effect that the “Leephus” or Capce Ball had. One thing that is not mentioned: There was controversy about whether it was a strike when developed. Its inventor demonstrated it for the most famous & respected umpire/legend-he ruled it a strike when passing the batter. With the officially lowered strike zone I wonder if it would still be a strike.

  40. Chuck Says:

    Bryce Harpers HR yesterday

  41. Chuck Says:

    Padres officially named Josh Byrnes their new GM.

    So, starting in 2012, there will only be four teams in the NL West.

  42. Raul Says:

    Bill “Spaceman” Lee threw an eephus referred to as the “Leephus”, “spaceball” or “moon ball”.[6] Pitching for the Boston Red Sox in the Game 7 of the 1975 World Series, the Red Sox were up 3–0 when Lee threw three eephus pitches to Tony Pérez with a runner on base. The third resulted in a towering two-run home run and the Red Sox would go on to lose the game 4–3, costing them the chance for their first World Series victory since 1918.[2]

  43. Chuck Says:

    Only two players have ever played in a World Series and the NBA Finals.

  44. Raul Says:

    No idea who either of them could be.

  45. Chuck Says:

    Gene Conley is one.

    The other one threw the eephus pitch to Tony Horton.

  46. brautigan Says:

    Well, it’s not Chuck Connors (The rifleman…not many people knew he played for the Boston Celtics). Nor Dave DeBusschere. Did Gene Conley pitch for the Braves in the ‘57 or ‘58 world series? If he did, I’ll say Gene Conley is one of them. Danny Ainge never played in the world series. I’d say Ron Reed, but I don’t think the Pistons won the title when he was playing.

    Ok, I give up, who was it?

  47. brautigan Says:

    Hamilton? He played in the NBA? God, I didn’t know that.

    Learn something new every day. Now if his baseball card had said that, I probably would have known about it.


  48. Cameron Says:

    Impressive shot by Harper there. Also saw that Michael Choice and (I think) Michael Taylor are both in the AFL along with new outfielder Grant Green.

    …Fuck, if those three come up at the same time, the A’s have effectively called a mulligan on their entire outfield.

  49. Mike Felber Says:

    Thanks for posting #42 Raul, that was what I was alluding to, though I meant to type “spaceball”.

  50. Chuck Says:

    Choice and Green are here, Michael Taylor is not.

  51. Chuck Says:

    Harper hit a three run walkoff today.

  52. Raul Says:

    Glad he remembered not to bunt.

  53. Raul Says:

    I’m thinking Rafael Furcal might not be the best player to lead off.

  54. Raul Says:


    Cardinals – Dos.
    Rangers – Uno.

  55. Chuck Says:

    Argument against sabermetrics.

    Jaime Garcia’s not a very good pitcher.

  56. Raul Says:

    Depends how you define “very good”, I suppose.

  57. Chuck Says:

    On the Cardinals, Garcia’s their number three.

    On a good day.

    On the Rays, he’s a LOOGY.

    How’s that?

  58. Raul Says:


    I think he’s a good pitcher. He just nibbles a lot.
    Attack the zone, dude.

  59. Chuck Says:

    When you don’t have swing and miss stuff, or a go-to out pitch, you have to nibble.

    Otherwise, it’s batting practice.

    Yankees have a kid like that.

    Can’t remember his name.

    Mexican free agent.


  60. Raul Says:

    Banuelos? LOL

    Nice shot.

  61. Raul Says:

    Wow. Garcia is out after just 3 innings.

  62. Raul Says:

    The good news is that the bullpen phone apparently is functioning.

  63. Raul Says:

    Congrats, Matt Holliday.

    You might have just cost your team the World Series.

  64. Chuck Says:

    For those interested in how managers bullshit the media.

    Washington is adamant Harrison is starting tomorrow.

    Every talk show in America is calling him an idiot.

    Because THEY are the idiots.

    Washington doesn’t want to face Carpenter tomorrow.

    Which means, in his mind, today is Game seven.

    Holland is his long man tonight.

    If he needs him, great.

    If not, Holland starts tomorrow.


  65. Chuck Says:


    No, LaRussa did.

    He’s blowing his bullpen for no reason.

    What’s going to happen tomorrow if there is a Game seven?

    He’s got a blown bullpen, and he’s got Chris Carpenter going on three days’s rest.

    Is he expecting seven innings from him?


  66. Raul Says:

    It should be noted that Salas came in the 4th inning today.
    This is a guy who was their closer for like half the year or something.

  67. Raul Says:

    I’m not saying Freese should bunt…because there have just been 5 balls in a row….but you’re down 1 and you’ve got 1st and 2nd with nobody out…and your team hasn’t exactly been ripping the cover off the ball…

    Shit, here’s the double play ball but Texas botched it.

    1st and 3rd, one out.

  68. Raul Says:

    This is the worst defending I’ve ever seen.

  69. Chuck Says:

    “This is the worst defending I’ve ever seen.”

    You didn’t watch the NLCS?

  70. Raul Says:

    LOL. I was working most of the series so I didn’t really watch it much.

  71. Chuck Says:

    Offense wins pennants, pitching and defense wins championships.

    Instead of playing in Game Six of the World Series, Prince Fielder is taking his kids to school because the Brewers couldn’t catch or throw the ball.

    When you give the opponent’s four outs every other inning, when you give Holliday, Pujols and Berkman an extra PA every game, you’re going to lose.

  72. Raul Says:

    Nice defensive play by Furcal going up the middle.

  73. John Says:

    The NLCS was absolutely the worst defense O’ve ever seen.

    Not just the errors…Hart and T. Plush both misplayed multiple flyballs resulting in runs.

  74. Jim Says:

    This is the WS. Defense??

  75. Raul Says:

    And they’re loaded for St. Louis.

  76. Chuck Says:

    Ten bucks says Holland is the pitcher in he seventh, providing the Rangers aren’t trailing.

  77. Raul Says:

    Holliday is out. Even if he was safe…how the hell do you get off the bag that far?

    You’re on 3RD BASE.

  78. Jim Says:

    The goat horns have been passed from Holliday to Michal Young and now back to Holliday for getting picked off.

  79. Chuck Says:

    I’m sorry, but that’s just wrong.

    You throw fucking 9goddamn7 and you’re facing the seventh hitter and you throw one strike?

    Little League shit.

  80. Chuck Says:

    “Holliday is out. Even if he was safe…how the hell do you get off the bag that far?”


    Especially with a lefty hitter.

    From third, you can see everything, why cheat a step?


  81. Raul Says:

    “You throw fucking 9goddamn7 and you’re facing the seventh hitter and you throw one strike?”

    We talking about Kyle Farnsworth or Jose Contreras?

  82. Chuck Says:

    Cost the Cardinals a run.


  83. Chuck Says:

    Contreras didn’t throw 97 did he?

    But, yeah, Farnsworth fits.

  84. Raul Says:

    Contreras used to when he first came to the Yankees.

  85. Raul Says:

    Yeah that wild pitch after the pick off…ouch.

  86. Raul Says:

    and Holland is in the game.

  87. Raul Says:

    Big shot by Adrian Beltre.

  88. Jim Says:

    Ah Adrian, fun to watch him play

  89. Raul Says:

    And the Rangers just won the World Series.

  90. Chuck Says:

    Holland to Feliz..Series over.

    For all the statheads who criticized Washington..suck it.

  91. Raul Says:

    Maybe they were talking about UL Washington.

  92. Chuck Says:

    LaRussa’s officially in panic mode.

  93. Chuck Says:

    Memo to Raul:

    Ian Kinsler sucks.

  94. Raul Says:

    He came up with a nice hit

  95. Raul Says:

    Pujols needs to homer.

  96. Chuck Says:

    Dude..this game is over.

    The last three innings are just a formality.

  97. Raul Says:

    Note to Derek Holland: Your moustache is pathetic. Seriously, get rid of it. You aren’t man enough to handle it.

  98. Chuck Says:

    Gonna be pretty cool next year watching the defending World Champions in Spring Training.

  99. Raul Says:

    Why isn’t Feliz in the game?

  100. Raul Says:

    The Cards are terrible.

  101. Jim Says:

    Uh Elvis, how about a bit of urgency.

    You moving to Florida Chuck?

  102. Chuck Says:

    “You moving to Florida Chuck?”

    Um, no?

  103. Raul Says:

    I seriously think this series is going to inspire creation of the Least Valuable Player Award.

  104. Jim Says:

    The Rangers certainly aren’t seizing the moment.

  105. Raul Says:

    Oh shit

  106. John Says:

    That was some formality.

  107. Raul Says:

    Guess nobody taught Nelson Cruz to run to the wall and adjust from there.

  108. Chuck Says:


    Cruz looked like your drunk brother in law trying to catch a frisbee at the family reunion on that play.

    Good thing he can hit.

  109. Raul Says:

    Now THAT is the game.

  110. Chuck Says:

    When the chips are on the table, the great players come through.

  111. John Says:

    @108, in other words, he looked like Corey Hart.

  112. Raul Says:

    I’m pretty sure Darren Oliver is 127 years old.

  113. Jim Says:

    I think I saw a walker next to Ron Washington

  114. Raul Says:

    Fuck me

  115. Raul Says:

    This game is giving a new meaning to the term “Game 6″

  116. Raul Says:


  117. Jim Says:

    That about sums it up.

  118. John Says:

    @90, suck it.

  119. Jim Says:

    Just goes to prove, its hard to play baseball with both hands wrapped around your neck.

  120. Cameron Says:

    Fuck, now that was a ride.

    See y’all for Game 7! I love Game 7!

  121. Jim Says:

    Good night all

  122. brautigan Says:

    What a GAME!

    Damn, there is no other game than baseball.

  123. John Says:

    That might be the most exciting game I’ve ever seen.

    It’s almost gotta be, right?

  124. Raul Says:

    It’s the new Game 6.

  125. brautigan Says:

    First game 7 in 9 years. I’m pumped.

  126. Cameron Says:

    The Cardinals are the team that just won’t die, man.

  127. Mike Felber Says:

    Sounds like I missed a great show.

  128. Cameron Says:

    Walkoff homer in the 11th inning to force a Game 7, Mike. Don’t get much better.

  129. Cameron Says:

    Ha, great analysis on why no one wants to pick up Terrell Owens now that he’s healthy.

    A) He wants to be a #1 WR
    B) he doesn’t have the skill set to be a #1 WR anymore

  130. John Says:

    D) didn’t he try to off himself recently?

  131. Cameron Says:

    The only contract offer he’s getting is from the Arena Football League that only offers performance incentives and a travel stipend, no base pay. Would not be surprised.

  132. John Says:

    I hate the Cardinals with a passion. I want them to be disbanded. I wish they would all quit baseball and form a gay boy-band (Poo Holes Lovers? Get it?)

    But this is some incredible resiliency. Just phenomenal.

  133. brautigan Says:

    Twice the Cardinals were down to their last strike of the season.


  134. Chuck Says:


    Yeah, John, just goes to show what happens when you start talking before the fat lady starts singing.

  135. Bob Says:

    That was awesome.

  136. Chuck Says:

    If there ever was an example that a game can be edge of your seat exciting while not being well played, last night was it.

  137. brautigan Says:

    The Cardinals wouldn’t be in this situation if not for the squirrel.

  138. Jim Says:

    Freeze’s HR will replace Fisk’s in future WS promos. Tonight will be interesting, will the Rangers’ be emotionally flat due to the loss or will the Card’s be emotionally spent? You can make a strong argument for both conditions.

  139. Cameron Says:

    Oh lord, I know ESPN is retarded, but they listed the over-under on the 49ers-Browns game as San Francisco with 85.5.

    …I know the 49ers are good, I know the Browns suck, but 85.5… Wow, who fell asleep at the wheel in their stat department?

  140. Raul Says:

    Well, I made the connection that this was in some ways like that other Game 6 that happened 25 years ago.

    And like those 86 Mets, the Cardinals have to pile it on and take Game 7.

  141. Raul Says:

    Oh Jayson Stark…I love you buddy…you started to write a fantastic article…and then you lost me…

    “With the giant scoreboard in right field flipping the score one last time, to Cardinals 10, Rangers 9 in 11 innings of unforgettable madness.

    But this was merely the final freeze frame in what we could easily argue was the greatest World Series game ever played.”

    (le sigh)

    It was not the greatest World Series game ever played. Not even close. I hate to be the guy that calls you out on it. But I just can’t let that BS pass through.

    It was, however, quite entertaining and thrilling.

  142. Raul Says:


    With David Freese doing his best to mimic Aaron *Bleeping* Boone, I wonder if he’ll continue the Boone legacy and tear his ACL in January so the Yankees can get that A-Rod contract off their hands…

  143. Raul Says:

    So the Rangers used Derek Holland and it didn’t work.

    Now they peddling Matt Harrison out there…but who knows? Maybe Harrison throws a Perfecto.

  144. John Says:

    Somehow, I don’t think the Cardinals feel lile committing to two 30 million dollar contracts.

    And I agree, one of the most exciting games of all time, but not well-played in the slightest.

  145. John Says:

    Chuck: “Argument against sabermetrics.
    Jaime Garcia’s not a very good pitcher.”

    Garcia’s WAR in 2011: 0.9.

  146. Raul Says:

    @ #145

    Shut the hell up, Donnie. You’re out of your element.

  147. John Says:


  148. Raul Says:

    Does last night affect Pujols’ decision?

  149. Cameron Says:

    And the Angels are having Jerry Dipoto take over GM duties. I like Dipoto, I think he can turn the dumbassery of Arte Moreno around. He won’t be able to get rid of Vernon Wells, but he’ll be able to get these guys going again.

  150. Raul Says:

    Word is that Nolan Ryan will follow Roger Dorn’s lead and activate himself to start Game 7.

  151. Cameron Says:

    “Does last night affect Pujols’ decision?”

    What decision? Chuck’s already determined that St. Louis keeps Albert and he’s NEVER wrong.

    In all honesty, though, it does a bit. The real dealbreaker is if St. Louis wins tonight. I still think there’s still a few factors that will affect his decision, like if La Russa retires or takes over a mangerial vacancy somewhere else, but a ring will really seal the deal here. I think he’s probably gonna end up back in St. Louis either way, but a win tonight tips the scale.

  152. John Says:

    @149, good news for them, considering that Minaya was considered a candidate.

  153. Cameron Says:

    “Word is that Nolan Ryan will follow Roger Dorn’s lead and activate himself to start Game 7.”

    Five bucks says Nolan Ryan now is still the best pitcher in Texas.

  154. Raul Says:

    Omar Minaya won’t be the GM in Anaheim?

    Breathe easy, white players on the Angels. Your job is safe.

  155. Cameron Says:

    Considering the white boys in Anaheim are the best players there, that is a good sign.

  156. John Says:

    Prince Fielder’s not a white guy…

  157. Cameron Says:

    He’s also not there yet.

    Though I think if I’m Anaheim, I try and hedge my bets with Trumbo. Guy’s got a high ceiling and there’s some other holes I try to fill first. I think they should try and trade for David Wright.

    Unless they ask for Trout, then fuck ‘em.

  158. Bob Says:

    LOL @154.

  159. Bob Says:

    The Tigers are picking up Jose Valverde’s option for $9 million. And the Orioles are close to hiring Tony LaCava.

  160. Raul Says:

    The Mets need to shave payroll. Regardless of what the team says about its financial stability, they had a 115 million dollar payroll this season for a 4th place team.

    According to baseball reference, they currenly have just 60 million committed to players in 2012, which is a good sign. They do have a bunch of arb-eligible players but they’ll be under 100 million and that’s a start.

    Am I reading this right? David Wright is a free agent after 2012? His name will come up a lot in trade talks this winter, if that is the case.

    Wow, the Mets were paying Gary Matthews and Oliver Perez 12 million each in 2011.

  161. Bob Says:

    And a better start for them would be for the Wilpons to find a good owner.

  162. Chuck Says:

    The Mets need to figure out a way to get some relief on Johan’s contract.

    He’s like Brandon Webb.

    Stick a fork in him. He’s done.

    Shut down.


  163. John Says:

    @160, I’m fairly sure the Angels paid about 99% of Matthews’ contract. The Mets only acquired him as a short-term solution in 2010 when Beltran was hurt.

  164. Raul Says:

    Speaking of the Mets…I have come to Mo Vaughn.

    Vaughn signed a 6 year, 80 million dollar contract with the Angels. After spending 3 years and about 31 million, they sent Vaughn to the Mets, where he was apparently earning 17 million a year to not play.

    From Wikipedia:

    The decision to acquire Vaughn was solely that of then-Mets G.M. Steve Phillips. Vaughn had missed the entire 2001 season due to injury, but when the opportunity to acquire Vaughn presented itself, Phillips and a contingent of Mets’ brass (including then-manager Bobby Valentine) descended upon a small batting cage in Connecticut to see Vaughn hit off a tee. Phillips, convinced that Vaughn could immediately enter the Mets’ overhauled lineup and contribute without regard to his injury recovery, sent pitcher Kevin Appier (who had arguably been the Mets’ most consistent starter in 2001) to the Angels in exchange for the rights to Vaughn. The trade would eventually be a contributing factor to Phillips’ firing as general manager.


    It was revealed on December 13, 2007 in the report by Senator George J. Mitchell that Vaughn had purchased steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs from Kirk Radomski, who said he delivered the drugs to him personally. Radomski produced three checks, one for $2,200 and two more for $3,200, from Vaughn, one of the latter dated 6-1-2001, and another dated 6-19-2001. Radomski said that the higher checks were for two kits of HGH, while the lower one was for one and a half kits. Vaughn’s name, address and telephone number was listed in an address book seized from Radomski’s house by federal agents. Vaughn’s trainer instructed him to take HGH in attempt to recover from injury.

    Mitchell requested a meeting with Vaughn in order to provide Vaughn with the information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond; Vaughn never agreed to such an interview.

  165. John Says:

    Steve Phillips is an effing idiot.

  166. Raul Says:

    Kevin Appier from 1990-1997 (ages 22-29):

    103-74 W/L
    3.22 ERA
    31 CG
    10 SO
    Averaged 205 innings
    Averaged 180 hits allowed
    140 ERA+
    7.4 K/9

  167. John Says:

    You know, I never even realized that Appier was a Met.

    But yeah, he was one of the better pitchers in the American League as a Royal.

  168. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, Steve Phillips made Omar Minaya look like a good GM.

  169. Raul Says:

    Appier was good.

    He probably deserved the 1993 Cy Young but came in 3rd behind Jack McDowell and Randy Johnson.

    McDowell may have won because he was 22-10. Johnson was 19-8. Appier was 18-8.
    (Insert John’s rant about wins).

  170. John Says:

    I’m pretty sure McDowell was just pitching to the score.

  171. Chuck Says:

    Mo Vaughn is the cousin of Greg Vaughn and was a college teammate of Craig Biggio at Seton Hall.

    Did you know that the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla $1 million per year as part of his deferred payment option and will do so until 2035?

  172. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 160 & 163 –

    The Mets only paid $1.0 million towards Matthews’s contract in ‘11.

    The Angels ate the rest.

  173. John Says:


    Keep in mind that interest is added onto Bonilla’s payments; he’s getting paid 1M per year in 1999 dollars.

    Perhaps they should do the same thing with Santana. Pay his family 1M per year until like 2234.

  174. Raul Says:

    Bobby Bo: Financial genius.

    Eat that, Lenny Dykstra.

  175. Lefty33 Says:

    “According to baseball reference, they currenly have just 60 million committed to players in 2012, which is a good sign. They do have a bunch of arb-eligible players but they’ll be under 100 million and that’s a start.”

    They are at 66.8 in ‘12 for five players with five arbitration eligible and 7 FA’s.

    Santana 24.0
    Bay 18.13
    Wright 15.25
    Dickey 4.75
    Carrasco 1.2

  176. John Says:

    Hey man, Bonilla helped the 1999 Mets get to the playoffs!

    Ok, he hit .160/.277/.303 in 141 PA’s.

  177. Lefty33 Says:

    Bonilla’s getting 8% interest on that money. Damn!

  178. Raul Says:

    About Bobby Bonilla:

    In 2001, he was signed by the St. Louis Cardinals, but was released due to an injury and the success of his replacement, Albert Pujols. He played his final game on October 7, 2001.

  179. John Says:

    Fun fact: Bonilla was the NL’s highest paid player from 1992-1994 (also with the Mets…and totally separate from his current arrangement).

  180. John Says:

    Albert Pujols had quite a year for a utility player in 2001, LOL.

  181. Raul Says:

    happy 30th birthday, Nate McLouth.

    In 2008 you had quite a fantastic season in Pittsburgh.
    That’s all I have to say.

  182. Raul Says:


    Right before Fat Elvis got that hit last night, I had already typed up “Comeback Player my ass…” and was ready to hit SUBMIT COMMENT.

    Guess I was wrong.

  183. Lefty33 Says:

    My favorite part of Bonilla’s career is where he was part of the trade that made Piazza a Marlin for like an hour.

    Bonilla, Manuel Barrios, Jim Eiseneich, Charles Johnson, and Gary Sheffield to the Dodgers and the Marlins got Piazza and Zeile.

    Piazza then got flipped to the Mets four or five days later for Geoff Getz, Ed Yarnall, and Preston Wilson.

  184. John Says:


  185. Raul Says:

    Doesn’t Antonio Alfonseca have 6 fingers on 1 hand or something?

  186. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 184

    He was there so briefly it’s amazing there is actually footage or pictures.

  187. Cameron Says:

    That trade kinda ranks up there with Brock-for-Broglio and Robinson-for-Pappas in how hard the Marlins took it in the ass. They lost Bobby Bonilla and Gary Sheffield for FIVE GAMES of Mike Piazza.

    Really? Five games? For Todd Ziele, Geoff Getz, Ed Yarnall, and Preston Wilson? You could’ve traded Mike Piazza for a ham sandwich and got a better deal.

  188. John Says:

    The Marlins slashed payroll to the bone, so they weren’t going to keep Sheffield, and Bonilla, as we’ve been discussing was fucking awful from 1998 to the end of his career.

    And out of that whole mess, they got a couple solid years of Preston Wilson.

    Who they flipped for the only two non-shitty years of Juan Pierre’s career.

    Who they traded for Ricky Nolasco.

    I forgot where I was going with this.

  189. Cameron Says:

    Bonilla was indeed quite awful, but I figured for Gary Sheffield they should’ve gotten more than five games of Mike Piazza. Why bother at all and not just go straight for a three-team deal?

    Granted, Florida did a pretty bullshit combo of trades out of that five games of Piazza, though.

  190. Lefty33 Says:

    Nice picture of Alfonseca on slide two.

    He also has six toes on each foot.

  191. John Says:

    What was Sheffield’s contract situation at the time of the trade? Was he signed through 2001, or was that an extension later on?

  192. Lefty33 Says:

    Sheffield was in the first year of a 61 million dollar extension through 2003 that Florida signed him to knowing they couldn’t afford him and that they had to move him during the season at some point.

  193. Cameron Says:

    Looks like that contract ran through 2003. I can’t exactly tell, but it’s just a guess because he’s basically getting paid the same from ‘98 to ‘03, with a $2MM bonus in 2003.

    Ignore the $5MMM discrepancy from ‘98 to ‘99, the extra five was a price they had to pay for getting Gary to waive his no-trade clause.

  194. Lefty33 Says:

    The Marlins had five guys making over a million dollars going into the ‘98 season and that trade moved four of them in one sweep.

    After that trade and the Piazza trade the top five earning Marlins were:

    Livan Hernandez 1.475
    John Cangelosi 550K
    Cliff Floyd 500K
    Jay Powell 320K
    Gregg Zaun 280K

  195. John Says:

    That’s seriously crazy.

    Why did they sign Sheffield to an extension? Seems like a silly move.

  196. Cameron Says:

    There’s slashing payroll, there’s having a fire sale, and then there’s having your fifth-highest player making 280 grand. Holy fuck.

  197. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 195 – Dupe the suckers into season tickets and then sell off your only marketable star.

  198. Cameron Says:

    So… I think Fausto Carmona will likely be a free agent. He’s got a $7MM club option and Ubaldo Jiminez is only making $5.2MM next season. There is no argument you can make to convince me that Carmona deserves to make more than Jiminez.

  199. Bob Says:

    1. Enjoy the final baseball game of 2011!!!
    2. TGIF!!!

  200. brautigan Says:

  201. Cameron Says:

    Oh look, Brian Cashman signed an extension with the Yankees. Show of hands, who’s surprised?

    …Yeah, that’s what I though.

  202. Cameron Says:

    This ain’t gonna end well.

  203. John Says:

    And tie game.

    Good thing Pujols and Berkman didn’t make outs.

  204. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, this really won’t end well. Bad pitching on both sides is gonna make this one ugly goddamn game.

  205. Cameron Says:

    “Tonight’s trivia question is how many of the previous 35 Game 7s there were a walk-off win?”

    …I think just 1960 with Maz’s homer.

  206. Raul Says:


  207. John Says:


  208. Raul Says:

    and I think there was Carter’s homer in 1993

  209. John Says:

    That was a game 6.

  210. Cameron Says:

    Carter was a Game 6.

    1960 was just the first one I remembered.

  211. John Says:

    Do they mean WS walk-off wins? Cuz 35 game 7’s seems high.

    And I also wonder if they’re referring to game 7’s of 8 and 9 game series that were played in the dead ball era.

  212. Cameron Says:

    Maybe. Maybe I misheard or something, but I was pretty sure it said 35.

    And that was a touching story about Jim Edmonds coming in to congratulate David Freese last night. Setting up a surprise meeting with a kid you were traded for and are the childhood hero of with your kid, who says Freese is his favorite player.

    …That’s a story you can’t make up.

  213. Cameron Says:

    In your opinion, should a pitch that grazes the jersey be considered a hit by pitch?

    If you ask me, no. Your jersey was hit, not you. Take a step off the plate, take a deep breath, and act like a fucking ballplayer.

  214. John Says:

    Generally I think it’s fine.

    When you wear body armor that physically extends to the inside corner, that’s bullshit.

  215. Jim Says:

    Off hand anyone know the record for runs scored in a series when the ball never leaves the infield? Cards’ probably own it now.

  216. Raul Says:

    Albert Pujols has played in 3 World Series.

    And it doesn’t feel like it.

    2004 (105-win Cardinals team)
    2006 (83-win Cardinals team)
    2011 (90-win Cardinals team)

    La Russa must love that Wild Card.

  217. John Says:

    I dunno, the Cards got beat by a Wildcard team in 2005.

  218. Jim Says:

    The RS were a wild card team in 04

  219. Jim Says:

    Chuck, in spring training ask the Rangers what happened.

  220. John Says:

    Great series.

    Hard for me to really appreciate, but coming back from down 2 runs with 1 out left…TWICE…and coming back to win the damn thing.

    That’s fucking impressive.

    That said, I can’t think of a team in baseball history that has benefited more from crap defense than the 2011 Cardinals.

  221. Raul Says:

    This series took me on a profound journey through the depths of my soul that allowed me to emerge with the realization that even though I despise Tony La Russa, I appear to hate the State of Texas even more. When the Rangers led in Game 6, I was put in the awful position of having to root for the Cardinals to battle back.

    Texas sucks. Rick Perry is an idiot. And the rest of the southern states should secede from the Union in a move that would boost the rest of the country’s IQ by 40 points. They could even form their own baseball league (perhaps named the Confederate League?), where instead of a 7th Inning Stretch that includes God Bless America, they select members of the crowd to compete in a clay-shooting competition with Ted Nugent playing Cat Scratch Fever in the background and everyone gets a free 24-ounce King Cobra they need to shotgun before the beginning of the next half inning.

  222. Mike Felber Says:

    I am surprised you guys did not have more in progress commentary for the rare game 7. Even with the lapses in play, it was an exciting & very engaging fall classic.

  223. Raul Says:

    Eric Karros is like Barry Melrose.
    It is not a compliment.

  224. Cameron Says:

    For the record, Ken Rosenthal… That was just a dick question. Which pitch from-YOU KNOW WHAT FUCKING PITCH!!!!

    That said, god DAMN! I didn’t give the Cardinals any chance of winning this. They got lucky and snuck in through Atlanta’s backdoor, were against the best team in the majors, a team that hated them with a passion, and guys playing for their first ring and they still won with a collection of bullshit comebacks and dumb luck. These guys are the definition of not giving up. Hell of a postseason from these guys. Enjoy your rings boys, you fuckin’ earned ‘em.

  225. brautigan Says:

    The St. Louis Cardinals.

    The best National League team ever.

  226. Raul Says:

    Typical arrogance, I’m talking about the Yankees now.

    Rumor has it the Yankees will pick up Nick Swisher’s 10 million dollar option, but that it’s possible he gets traded once it’s picked up.

  227. Bob Says:

    Congrats to the Cardinals.

  228. Cameron Says:

    I think Swisher’s probably better off in New York. Guy’s bat plays extremely well there and Granderson’s good enough to cheat to his left to neutralize Swisher’s defensive lacking. You’re better off keeping Swish than trying to find external options.

  229. Bob Says:

    I believe the article Raul read indicated the Yankees will make a play for Beltran, and if they go sign him, Swisher could then be used to either augment their pitching staff or their farm system.

  230. Cameron Says:

    Oof, I’d take Swisher over Beltran. Cheaper, younger, less likely to get himself injured.

  231. John Says:

    Here’s the thing with Swisher.

    It’s worth it to the Yankees to have a guy like that in RF for 10M. Not a bad deal at all when you’ve got 200M to spend.

    But there are only a handful of teams for which that’s a price they’d be willing to pay for a corner outfielder hitting .267/.368/.486. A terrific line, but not worth 10-20% of your payroll.

    Which means if they traded him, they would have to cover a big chunk of his salary…and take on the salary of whoever they’re getting for him…and spend a ton of money on a player who has played in just slightly more games than he’s missed since 2009.

    Seems way simpler to just buy CJ Wilson or Roy Oswalt.

  232. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but look at the alternatives. You won’t be able to get a decent trade with New York’s system. There’s Cuddyer, Kubel, maybe Willingham. You COULD sign Beltran, but he’ll be a hell of a lot more expensive for Swisher for what I can only see as a marginal increase for his age and health. You’re getting Swisher for 10 or Beltran for… Probably 18.

    It’s the best possible option, even if it’s not that great.

  233. JohnBowen Says:

    The Yankees only have so much money that they can afford to commit to players based completely on what they used to be.

  234. Cameron Says:

    Yeah, but you gotta weigh the cost-effectiveness of the options here. Swisher’s one of the better outfield options there offensively and not exactly a black hole in the field. He’ll be making $10.25MM next year.

    Beltran is four years older than Swisher, so he’s 35 next season. While there’s certainly not going to be a fork stuck in him, the guy’s got bad knees and only recently got back onto the field everyday after two years of on-and-off play. I wouldn’t exactly be sold on his health just yet. He’s got a better bat than Swisher, though there might not be as much power in it, age progression considered between the two. He’ll be a better contact hitter, a better runner, a better defender…

    And a premium outfield option represented by Scott Boras. Boras is notorious for high-priced negotiations. Given the production, the recent healthy season, and Beltran’s track record, we’re looking at $15-$18MM for a Type A free agent. Granted, he hit a 152 OPS+ last season, but a lot of that was singles and doubles. Beltran’s gonna be a 20 homer hitter if we’re looking at a nice progression, 15 if we’re looking at him turning 35 being ugly.

    Last season was a fluke if you ask me. I’ll probably wager his OPS+ being about 120-125. Maybe he’ll get a boost by Yankee Stadium, who knows? But even then that’s probably 130, 135? Swisher had a down year last year, but he’s still a 120 OPS+ hitter.

    Now, AT BEST with the numbers I’m talking, you’re talking a 15% increase in offensive output for roughly a 50% increase in contract value. Defense and baserunning factors in here, but I don’t think it’s enough to make it anything more than a wash here. I’m sorry, at some point an upgrade just becomes too expensive to be worth it.

  235. Cameron Says:

    …New York better pray that Josh Hamilton doesn’t sign an extension. Next year’s his contract year.

  236. Chuck Says:

    Swisher had 37 more plate appearances than Beltran in 2011.


    Beltran 152

    Swisher 117

    If Beltran would take a four year deal for about $65 million, I’d help Swisher pack.

    Ironically, looking at Beltran’s comp page on BR, his most similar is Fred Lynn, who was on a first ballot HOF path until injuries.

    And even with the injuries, Beltran’s most similar by age comps are Andre Dawson and Dave Winfield.

    So, he STILL has an outside shot.

  237. JohnBowen Says:

    “Swisher had 37 more plate appearances than Beltran in 2011.”

    True, but in the last three years, Swisher has about 220 more PA/year.

    I absolutely agree that Beltran has a good shot at the HOF, but Swisher’s the safer, cheaper bet right now.

  238. Chuck Says:

    Screw cheap.

    If the Yankees are worried about cheap or saving money, then they’ll let CC walk.

    For the money he wants, they can sign Darvish AND Wilson.

  239. JohnBowen Says:

    Fine, but Swisher’s also safer.

  240. Cameron Says:

    Priorities are gonna come up, though. The Yankees are probably gonna re-sign CC, and it won’t be cheap. They’re gonna pick up some extra pitching, too and that’s gonna run up the budget too. You gotta wonder whether you should try and upgrade a good offense or a bad pitching staff?

  241. Chuck Says:

    Not that it’s going to play out this way, but it’s interesting anyway.

    At his current career pace, Beltran is on track for 2700 hits, 1700 runs, 550 doubles 110 triples, 1500 RBI, 350 stolen bases, 1000 walks and 400 homers.

    You know how many major leaguers in history have hit all of those marks?


    And that’s not even considering he’s probably in the top 20 or so defensive players of all-time.

    He’s also on pace to finish with a career WAR of around 83, which is about 19 more than Tim Raines.

    It’s also more than Ken Griffey Jr, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, and Frank Thomas.

    To name a few.

    But then there’s the steriod stuff.

  242. JohnBowen Says:

    “He’s also on pace to finish with a career WAR of around 83, which is about 19 more than Tim Raines.”

    And 42 more than Jim Rice.

    You don’t have to sell me on Beltran, I definitely think he’s among the top 10 or so CF ever.

  243. Chuck Says:

    If Roy Halladay was on the Yankees, he’s the number one starter.

    If Felix Hernandez is on the Yankees, he’s the number one starter.

    If a healthy Josh Beckett (or Johnson, for that matter) is on the Yankees, he’s the number one starter.

    CC Sabathia is not an elite pitcher.

    He’s the beneficiary of six runs of support every time out.

    Do you think Sabathia does what Carpenter did last night, step up in an elimination game on 3 days rest with a barking elbow?

    Look at his last seven regular season starts, plus the playoffs. Here’s a guy so out of shape or so starting to break down he can even finish a season.

    NO FACKIN’ WAY am I paying CC. He opts out, hit the road, Jack.

    Quite frankly, at the same stage of their careers, I’d rather have Cliff Lee, and I wouldn’t PAY HIM either.

  244. Cameron Says:

    I dunno, CC’s been cranking out an average of 240 innings of 3.30 ball for the past 6 years. That’s consistent high-level pitching with no injury history. He isn’t the flashiest guy, but he gets the job done.

  245. Chuck Says:

    If you’re interested.

    Joe DelGrippo emailed this to me this morning, it’s a Japanese playoff game with Yu Darvish on the mound.

    It’s a two hour video, and obviously the broadcast and sub-titles are in Japanese.

    But if you’ve never seen him before, it’s worth a look.

  246. Mike Felber Says:

    CC has averaged 240 IP for 5 years. I agree about Beltre, & since the final sign of the Apocalypse (Chuck citing WAR in support of an argument) is upon us, I’ll follow suit.

    CC has 3 years where his WAR is virtually the same as this year, 6.9, on On fangraphs, that is 4 years where the average is over 7! Taking the lower #s, he has 6 years in the top 5 WAR for pitchers, one #1, then #2, which was THIS year.

    I would call that elite.

    His career WAR is about exactly 8 points lower on, but still 49.2 at 30 years old. All these stats are obviously independent of run support. I do not know if his condition (mainly if he will improve it) makes him likely to decline more rapidly than usual. But he is a natural rubber arm guy, & easily on a HOF path.

    It will be interesting to see if he loses weight, & if not, how well he does. Pitchers can be a bit fat, but he does push that limit.

  247. Chuck Says:

    “easily on a HOF path.”

    At the same age, so was Johan Santana.

  248. Chuck Says:

    What does WAR encompass, Mike?

    CC’s WAR is better because he pitches for the Yankees rather than pitching for the Pirates.

    Doing what Greinke did in 2009 or what Felix did last year with Seattle is far more impressive than anything Sabathia’s accomplished in his career.

    Anyone can post numbers with a good team.

    Win 16 games for a team that loses 111 like Randy did with the ‘04 Dbacks and come talk to me.

  249. Cameron Says:

    Might check out that Darvish game later. I’ve seen him pitch before, but I like watching him.

  250. Cameron Says:

    Wins aren’t everything. CC gives you a good ERA, good strikeout totals, and eats innings like Prince Fielder eats cheeseburgers. You don’t need a good team to do any of that.

  251. JohnBowen Says:

    “CC Sabathia is not an elite pitcher.”

    Yes, he is.

    “He’s the beneficiary of six runs of support every time out.”

    Doesn’t mean he’s not an elite pitcher. It’s part of the reason why “wins” is a retarded way to judge pitchers.

    “Do you think Sabathia does what Carpenter did last night, step up in an elimination game on 3 days rest with a barking elbow?”

    CC Sabathia pitched on 3 days rest for A FUCKING MONTH in 2008.

    On 3 days rest, he pitched a complete game on the final day of the season to put the Brewers in the playoffs, so yes, Sabathia has stepped up in an effective elimination game on 3 days rest (not sure about the elbow part).

    “CC’s WAR is better because he pitches for the Yankees rather than pitching for the Pirates.”

    No, it’s not.

    One of the reason WAR is about 10000x better than “pitching wins” is it doesn’t matter how crappy your team’s hitting is.

    Having a good fielding team helps your WAR (more for bbref than fangraphs), but CC Sabathia hasn’t exactly had elite defenses behind him as a Yankee, particularly the SS about to win his 6th bullshit gold glove.

    “Anyone can post numbers with a good team.”

    AJ Burnett?

    CC Sabathia’s ranks in statistics that matter, since becoming a Yankee:

    WAR: 5th
    ERA+: 6th
    IP: 4th
    GS: 3rd
    K: 8th

    Seems pretty elite to me.

  252. Chuck Says:

    “CC gives you a good ERA”

    You think a 3.51 career ERA is good?

  253. Chuck Says:

    “CC Sabathia pitched on 3 days rest for A FUCKING MONTH in 2008.”

    You were a virgin in 2008.

    Not really relevant in 2011, is it?

  254. Mike Felber Says:

    <aybe you have a basic misapprehension about WAR Chuck. The basic formulas vary a bit-baseball gauge relies on FIP stats-but all of them compute what a guy does relative to a league average guy does, not the team. When ERA + is used, it adjusts for park too. If it did not work thusly, then carlton & my avatar never could have posted amongst the very highest WAR years ever, ('13 & '72) on poor teams. WAr takes out team success from its rating system.

    The Big Unit had better peak years than any of CCs, but not in another stratosphere entirely-unless we like at Ks. He is a good example, because he accomplished the vast majority of his production after 30, & CC will be fortunate to approach doubling his production.

    Santana had a little less total WAR by 30, started a bit less strong. But your point is well taken that anything can happen. Still, if I had to bet my life, i would say CC will likely have enough discipline not to eat himself out a HOF career. Injury is always a prospect, but the odds are with him (I would say 2/3: 1/3).

    But even if he just hits 50% of his total production so far, he will end up with mid 70's WAR in the lower system, a no-brainer HOF guy.

  255. Chuck Says:

    “Eric Karros is like Barry Melrose.”

    Love Barry Melrose.

  256. JohnBowen Says:

    I love how Chuck follows post 252 with post 253.

    In his age 20-24 seasons, Sabathia posted a 4.10 ERA.

    Who gives a shit about that?

    Over the last 5 seasons, Sabathia has at least 230 IP every year, something that no other pitcher in the game can lay claim to. His ERA’s in those years: 3.21, 2.70, 3.37, 3.18, 3.00. Those are all very good ERA’s.

  257. Chuck Says:

    “But even if he just hits 50% of his total production so far, he will end up with mid 70’s WAR in the lower system, a no-brainer HOF guy.”


    Sabathia’s BR WAR this year was 6.9 pitching for a team that won 97 games.

    The Twins lost 99.

    Would his WAR have been higher, lower, or the same if he pitched EXACTLY the same for Minnesota?

  258. Mike Felber Says:

    “You think a 3.51 career ERA is good”?

    YES. As you must know Chuck, context is everything. CC played most of his career in the steroid era & in Cleveland.

    You think a 125 career ERA+ is good?

  259. Chuck Says:


    So what are you saying, John?

    That you’re still a virgin?

  260. JohnBowen Says:

    “Sabathia’s BR WAR this year was 6.9 pitching for a team that won 97 games.”

    Meaning that, without him, the Yankees don’t make the playoffs.

    Yeah, FUCK that guy.

    “Would his WAR have been higher, lower, or the same if he pitched EXACTLY the same for Minnesota?”

    In theory, the same. In practice, probably a little worse (defense), but not a gigantic difference.

  261. Cameron Says:

    Um… Yeah, it’d be the same. WAR isn’t influenced by run support.

  262. JohnBowen Says:

    @259, no. I’m saying that Sabathia has more recently shown the ability to carry a baseball team when he was needed than have a high ERA (accumulated mainly before steroid testing).

    @258, Sabathia has a 125 ERA+ and is garbage. Jim Palmer has a 126 ERA+ and is an all-time great.

    Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

  263. Mike Felber Says:

    Good question. It depends upon the WAR system you use, whether you use FIP #s or ERA + adjusted for defense. This has been a question I repeatedly brought up on citing many examples where guys have a fairly widely varying career WAR depending on which system is used. I lobby for a thread where all take a granular look at big WAR discrepancies, using individual players as examples to parse out who is putatively too high or low, & why. That is, which systems are better in what ways.

    And it IS true that for this reasons pitchers can vary more. but check all WAR, WARP or other total value systems & see how CC rates. I do not have the mathematical chops to insert his season into the Mn. context in different systems, but i do not see why it would be very different. At least if you averaged all the systems, or used the FIP one.

  264. JohnBowen Says:

    ” I lobby for a thread where all take a granular look at big WAR discrepancies”

    I’m down, not sure it’d be very popular here.


  265. Mike Felber Says:

    Nah, it would not work well here John.

    How about a pitcher who was done by CCs age, posted a career 2.92 ERA, & led the league with a microscopic 1.65 ERA + in 278.1 IP?

    Well he was good, but other than that one superb year, CC is already better & over more career IP. Dean Chance had a 119 career ERA +. Era & park are big factors in ERA +.

  266. JohnBowen Says:

    Chance’s ‘64 season is among the best all-time.

  267. Cameron Says:

    For the record, I don’t think CC Sabathia is worth his contract. I don’t think any pitcher not named Roy Halladay is worth CC’s contract.

    That said, CC’s in the running for a Top 5 pitcher in baseball. Only 3 guys are a lock to me, Doc, Verlander, and Felix. CC’s probably in there with either Lincecum or Kershaw, tough call.

  268. Cameron Says:

    Holy shit, didn’t realize Tim Lincecum posted a 2.74 ERA this year. But his strikeout numbers have trended down the last three years.

    Granted, 220 Ks is still really fucking nice.

  269. Chuck Says:

    “I’m down, not sure it’d be very popular here.”


    “In theory, the same. In practice, probably a little worse (defense), but not a gigantic difference.”

    In theory, it’s why WAR sucks.

    The numbers reflected in “Replacement” don’t change (they do from year to year, another WAR flaw), so posting equal numbers for a bad team (closer to replacement) should give you a higher WAR.

    “Meaning that, without him, the Yankees don’t make the playoffs.”

    The Yankees aren’t paying him $25 million a year to make the playoffs.

  270. Chuck Says:

    Halladay, Lee, Hudson, Hamels, Johnson, Greinke, Kershaw, Lincecum.

    I’d take them all over CC.

    Add Felix too.

  271. Cameron Says:

    “The Yankees aren’t paying him $25 million a year to make the playoffs.”

    No, they’re paying him 25 million a year because they could. They probably could’ve gotten him to sign for 20 million a year, but whenever Scott Boras calls Brian Cashman, he jacks up the price because he knows the Yankees will take the schmuck bait.

    Nine times out of ten, the Yankees are bidding against themselves.

  272. JohnBowen Says:

    “The numbers reflected in “Replacement” don’t change (they do from year to year, another WAR flaw), so posting equal numbers for a bad team (closer to replacement) should give you a higher WAR.”

    That would defeat the purpose. You want to compare everybody in the league; if you want to factor in the relative strengths of farm systems, no one’s stopping you.

    “The Yankees aren’t paying him $25 million a year to make the playoffs.”

    1) They WOULD NOT have made the playoffs, period, without Sabathia.
    2) Are you saying Sabathia has choked in the playoffs? I guess you missed the entire 2009 post-season.

  273. Cameron Says:

    Halladay – Yes
    Lee – Similar production over less innings, Lee’s older. CC
    Hudson – Worse production over less innings, 5-6 years older. CC
    Hamels – Worse production over less innings.
    Johnson – Hasn’t had one healthy season.
    Greinke – Overrated as shit, 2009 was a fluke, get used to seeing these Milwaukee numbers a lot.
    Kershaw – Yes.
    Lincecum – Yes.

  274. JohnBowen Says:

    “Halladay, Lee, Hudson, Hamels, Johnson, Greinke, Kershaw, Lincecum.”

    You haven’t seen Greinke pitch the last two years, have you.

    Seriously. You bag on CC cuz he has a 3.51 career ERA, but would felate Greinke and his 3.82 at will?

    Also, Josh Johnson is always injured. CC Sabathia is never injured. You can’t carry your team to the playoffs (like Sabathia tends to do) if you NEVER PITCH.

  275. Cameron Says:

    And you didn’t list Hernandez or Verlander? I’m disappointed, Chuck.

  276. JohnBowen Says:

    @273, you don’t get it. You want to be WORSE at baseball. That’s how you WIN.

  277. Cameron Says:

    Chuck sees the ceiling that Zack Greinke has and thinks he’ll has an easy time reaching it.

    I’ve got six seasons of Greinke in KC that says having great stuff don’t mean shit if you leave it over the plate.

  278. Mike Felber Says:

    I’ll add that replacement level is for the whole league, not calibrated for your team. C.C. more than gets the job done, he is elite relative to the league. Does not mean he has had an amongst the greatest ever outlier season. And it is not his fault that the Yanks & do overpay.

    Taking 1 very short post season as an indication of clutch play is as foolish as taking one great few games as meaning the same. Mays & Williams did not do well (the latter had a small injury) in the postseason at all, neither one was remotely deficient at playing under pressure.

  279. Chuck Says:

    You prove my point, Mike.

    Having a higher knowledge of numbers than of baseball keeps you falling into the trap of not knowing how the game works.

    Anyone with a pulse who watched the World Series can’t possibly argue Texas not being a better team.

    Same with the NLCS or NLDS.

    In a short series, your flaws become magnified, and as the Rangers proved, can neutralize your strengths.

    If CC pitched exactly the same for Pittsburgh, his WAR would have been 10.

    He’s pitching for a bad team against inferior competition.

    So, automatically, his WAR is higher.

    If it didn’t come out that way, then WAR sucks, and if you can’t see it, then you don’t know the game very well.

    The gap between my knowledge of baseball and yours is far greater than my knowledge of WAR and yours.

    If an old fart like me can see the flaws in it, why not you?

  280. Cameron Says:

    Okay, once you figure in the fact his competition goes from the AL East to the NL Central, then yeah things do look a little different.

    By that same turn though, he’s been putting up some pretty damn good numbers up against the stiffest competition in the league.

  281. Cameron Says:

    “In a short series, your flaws become magnified, and as the Rangers proved, can neutralize your strengths.”

    It can also prove that you can’t give up 41 walks in the World Series and expect to win.

  282. Mike Felber Says:

    Well I am no spring chicken Chuck-i just shaved 1/2 of a bushy beard apropos of the season.

    You may well be right about the knowledge gap you postulate-certainly if you count following current baseball, no question.

    I immediately agree re: the level of competition. I explained why the quality of your team makes little difference-unless CC was pitching for an excellent defense, in some WAR systems. To see how much the difference in WAP would be based upon your good NEW point of competition, we would have to look at the PIS (Pitching independent stats, i just made it up) of all CC’s opponents in starts vs. someone else.

    I really doubt he could rack up such a dramatic difference, between 6.9 & 10 WAR (assuming you are using just by switching those opponents. But let us say you are close to right. That is a point in favor of CC!

    The quality of the offenses you face should be factored in. i just think you see too big distortions. WAR is already calibrated to league. Yes, it could be more detailed & consider exact quality of offenses faced.

    See, i concede some points. Though you are making the absurd conclusion that unless someone agrees with the specific conclusion that WAR sucks they do not know the game very well. Which is prima fascia, so transparently, false.

  283. John Says:

    Chuck has argued that playing for a bad team both inflates and deflates your WAR…WITHIN THE SAME THREAD.

  284. Cameron Says:

    Mind. Blown.

    …Either that or there’s a gas leak in here.

  285. Mike Felber Says:

    I meant to say that beard is very gray.

    Let’s look at your theory that flaws become magin fied in a short series. Well…to a degree that can be true, but there are two HUGE caveats.

    1) Whether you flaws & weakness come out is partially dependent upon specific match up logistics, which may not reflect who is best agfainst the same competition over a whole season. AKA, who is meaningfully “better”.

    2) The PS allows pitching to be more important, thus to a somewhat lesser extent defense, since it allows you to put your best hurlers out there much more often. This is not possible over a period of time that meaningfully is correlated with establishing which whole team is “best”.

    3) As John & many others who have endless old school baseball credentials will tell you, & any statistician will, a short series that can only last a maximum of 5 or 7 games is NOT a reliable indicator of which team is better. Not at all.

    Let’s take hypothetical teams that somehow are equally balanced in offense/defense & fielding. They have the same # of injuries all year, same results from trades: one captures the pennant very early with 110 wins, nobody else in baseball has over 92. Other team squeaks in through the wild card, let us presume like the ‘72 Mets with 82 wins.

    They face each other in the 1st round. Recall there are THREE rounds that now can help “deselect” the actual best team in baseball. WHAT do you think the odds would be that Team A wins the 1st round? And what are the odds that team A wins the World Serious? (sic).

    I wont ask you to “show your work”, but just put an approximate % on both questions. Either way I’ll bet you will have to acknowledge that while there is NO chance that team B is nearly as good as team A, there is a not tiny chance that they could beat team A in a series that will end with 3 wins.

    And that Team A still has a decent chance of not winning it all. Right?

  286. Mike Felber Says:

    Apparently those caveats are so big that they have impaired my ability to count to 3. Next up: I practice my ABCs.

  287. Mike Felber Says:

    And of course I meant the ‘73 Mets. That gas leak is pretty pervasive. When I was coming to baseball consciousness. But given their pitching & clutch defense, + especially random factors amounting to luck, it would have not been at all amazing if they won that game 7 & the whole thing.

  288. Chuck Says:


    Attention all readers:

    Today is Saturday.

    John is hammered.

    That is all.

  289. Cameron Says:

    Huh, it is Saturday.

    Sorry, it’s just been one of those weeks where I’ve sorta been checked-out mentally.

  290. Chuck Says:

    “As John & many others who have endless old school baseball credentials”

    Um, John’s biggest problem is he doesn’t have old school baseball credentials.

    Bill Buckner in the ‘86 World Series?

    John wasn’t born yet.

    I was 29.

    LOL, Mike.

    That may be your best line ever on this site.

  291. Cameron Says:

    I see three possibilities on that line, Chuck.

    1) He meant to talk about you.
    2) He was being sarcastic.
    3) Seriously, I think we need to check for a gas leak.

  292. Mike Felber Says:

    Winder has come early to NYC w/a storm, & nada appealing enough to get me to stir stump yet. A radio show from a recently deceased Danny Stiles. He had been spinning records since the ’40’s! Amazingly, so has this man, show ON AIR since ‘45, done all possible in radio, TV, songwriting, made 90 LP… Who I saw play at an arts summer camp when I was a kid. He sent me a postcard that he would perform my nuke power satirical version of “yesterday”.

    See Chuck I ramble in non-sequitors just like a true oldster.

    But I want everyone’s opinions here. Resolved: that

    1) Given the whole season sample size & average differences in league quality, factoring in the random variations in play in short PS series, & also considering how team quality is distorted by being able to have your best pitchers go often & avoid your worse ones, that on average if we just took whichever team had the most wins in MLB, THEY would more often represent the true best team, instead of the actual World Series winner.

    2) That the best way to determine who is best would be to have one league over as many games as you can play in a season. Failing that, maximizes inter-league games if possible. For the PS, since we have a limited # of games possible, so minimize the # of rounds, & take the champion of each league, & given the breaks necessary between series, there should be time for at least a 21 game series.

    3) Now this is what I do not know, & which we had someone like Kerry to work the #s. WHICH would be a better arbiter of who is the best team under neutral whole season conditions: again just taking who won the most games in MLB, or who won a 21 game 1 rounder? Would that be enough games to reduce chance adequately while the contests effectively weight relative league quality (also consider that the pitching choices & frequency could still be to a degree unbalanced), more often determine than over 162 games with no PS who is the *true* better team?

  293. Mike Felber Says:

    Ha! Actually, I accidentally semantically conflated John w/old school guys, which through no fault of his is impossible. I meant that John, & also old school baseball guys-like you or greater in seniority & experience-know that a series that can go a maximum of 7 games is not an efficient determiner of which team is best. Also due to how you can pitch & avoid pitching guys at abnormal rates, so it distorts the assessment of which whole team is better further beyond the small sample size.

    But the gas &/or alcohol must be getting around, because #289 references what seems like John in #283. But his closest post was #284.

    But wherever the truth is in all these academic matters, you are raising a kid Chuck. Done well, that trumps anything I can claim.

  294. John Says:

    I did get destroyed last night, but post 283 was stone-cold sober.

    Read posts 248 & 279.

    They’re 100% contradictory.

  295. Chuck Says:


    Easily the most frightening comment you’ve ever posted.

  296. John Says:

    Dude, in one post, you say that Sabathia’s WAR is only high because he plays for a great team.

    You then flip-flop, and say it would be higher with a bad team.

    It’s incredible…you flip-flopped, and were wrong both ways.

  297. Cameron Says:

    “CC’s WAR is better because he pitches for the Yankees rather than pitching for the Pirates.”

    “If CC pitched exactly the same for Pittsburgh, his WAR would have been 10.”

  298. Chuck Says:


  299. Mike Felber Says:

    Chuck had admitted self contradiction. Progress, &/or sign of impending Armageddon!

    I have no idea why you find #294 scary Chuck-my statement about the asymmetrical nature of the PS, small correction, or the tribute to you? But OK, it is Halloween weekend.

    Input on #286 is welcome, but mainly, I challenge all to address #283, & the question posed in the last paragraph. Would the hypothetical one best of 21 series be better having no championship & taking most wins in MLB in figuring out which is the best team over a season?

    Of course either option is wholly unrealistic re: being implemented, since both the drama/ many city interest & dollars would be greatly limited. But it is an interesting academic question of weighing the effect of chance over a larger sample size & where pitching would need to be a bit deeper.

    The answer also turns on how much of a difference there tends to be between quality of play between leagues. I also ask because I am unsure of the answer!

  300. Mike Felber Says:

    I meant input in #286 is welcome. But 293 is the question I am describing above.

    293, not 283. Nobody will believe I turned off the gas years ago, & I virtually do not drink. I think the 1/2 beard Holi-daaaaze conceit has unbalanced my brain.

    mmmm—deeeluscious (sic), chewy braiaiaiaians! :-)

  301. Cameron Says:

    Guys, do you know a good way to get rid of back pain? I popped a couple of tylenol, but I don’t know how much that’ll help.

    My grandma came down to visit. She’s about a foot shorter than me and weighs three hundred pounds. I couldn’t really get to the point where I could use my knees to help her up, so all that weight got put square on my back.

  302. Mike Felber Says:

    Jeez. I hurt my back a few times over 5 years, but have not for 11 years-I have not stretched adequately generally, but strengthening the lower back really helped.

    But for immediate relief, there are the various painkillers, & alternating ice with heat could help. I understand that this is more effective than either alone. And gentle stretching if/when you are not in too much acute pain.

    I assume it is your lower back. If so, lie on your back w/knees bent feet on floor & arch your hips back. And draw your knees up to your chest with your hand, hold position. Get on your knees & then draw your whole body back & low, extend your arms, & hold. On hands & knees, arch your back, hold briefly then round your back, hold briefly.

  303. Cameron Says:

    The Brewers will decline Yuni’s option.

    John is getting hammered again to celebrate.

  304. Cameron Says:

    “It’s been well publicized that Sabathia is likely to opt out of the remaining four years of his contract in search of a bigger, potentially record-setting deal.”

    …What record? Record for biggest contract by a pitcher? YOU FUCKING BROKE THAT! You could get a raise of a penny and it’s a new record.

    The current contract record A-Rod has? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The record Pujols will set this season? …I’d laugh at that, but the proper amount of laughing would send me to the grave, so I’m just gonna say what a dumbass.

  305. Mike Felber Says:

    How is your back Cameron?

  306. Cameron Says:

    The tylenol I took was extra strength. Once it kicked in and I laid down for a while, it felt alright. Still kinda sore, but I’ll be fine by tomorrow.

    Lesson here, use your knees. Your back wasn’t meant to pull 300 pounds.

  307. Mike Felber Says:

    But do not skip the stretching. Each exercise for at least a couple of minutes for a few days. This will help the underlying issue beyond only drugging away the pain receptors.

  308. Chuck Says:

    The closer to your sides the pain is, the less likely it’s a structural problem.

    If the pain is in the center of your back and feels like a knife is sticking out, congratulations, you probably blew out a disk or two.

    If it’s away from the center, probably just an oblique strain or a pull in the rib cage area, which is actually pretty painful considering it’s not a serious problem.

  309. Cameron Says:

    No lasting strain guys. I had a bit of pain in my side this morning, but that’s about it. For the most part, I’m feeling a hell of a lot better.

  310. Mike Felber Says:

    Good! My pain was just to the left of exact center lower back years ago, but was a kind strain, & a compression had caused sciatica for a while. It can often be a compressed, not a blown disc. An osteopath my Dr. dad referred me to had recommended no lifting any more, when I averred he said none overhead: that would have been bad advice. An impediment upon something I enjoyed & the I relied on for fitness. i saw a chiropractor, but while I should have stretched more, the best thing I did was strengthen the lower back, & often just with once a week deadlifts or squats. Doing so with an arched back/correct form was very useful.

    ‘Cause when you hurt yourself in an area, just laying off even when recovered often causes problems, since the muscles there need to be strong enough to help & be in balance with the rest of your body. Not that I am breaking any world records.

  311. Kerry Says:


    (More later, I’m on a trip right now.)

  312. Kerry Says:

    No, not THAT kind of trip….

  313. Bob Says:

    You expect us to believe that when you work on a college campus?

  314. Chuck Says:

    So, the truth finally comes out.

    And here we are thinking the right thing is always done for the right reasons.

    Not that they NEEDED to do this, mind you, because Shea Stadium was bigger (where it mattered) than CitiField, but, the Mets announced yesterday they were bringing in the fences.

    In return for the 2014 All-Star game.

    So, they sold-out.

  315. Cameron Says:

    Well, the two options they had were find better players or cheat.

    …I’d cheat too, it’s a safer bet. =P

  316. JohnBowen Says:

    Is it really cheating if everyone has to play there?

  317. Mike Felber Says:

    Yes, they sold out. It is not cheating, but against the spirit of the game. Improve your roster & balance, don’t mess with the basics.

    Welcome back Kerry! When we get some more content to keep them, i will be happy to draw in folks from sites like

  318. JohnBowen Says:

    BR’s blog is dead, apparently.

    That’s a shame.

  319. Chuck Says:

    “BR’s blog is dead, apparently.”

    Another sign pointing to the death of sabermetrics.

    First, Billy Beane fires his stat staff and replaces them with scouts, and now this.

    Maybe Elvis really is alive?

  320. Mike Felber Says:

    I do not know that this is true at all. They say that they are focusing on stat development to generate revenue-someone could say that there is now more opportunity in SM related ventures, so all the time & effort to run & moderate a Blog is not worth it, so it dies as a byproduct of SM success. This place having fading #s does not necessarily have any wider significance

  321. Chuck Says:

    “They say that they are focusing on stat development to generate revenue-”

    No shit, Mike.

    Geez, for a New York guy, you don’t catch on very fast.

    A 500 comment thread on Kevin Brown’s HOF chances is nothing more than the collective boner of a bunch mid-forties numbers crunchers whose own playing careers ended five years before puberty.

    It may be interesting to the baseball intellectually challenged, but not for the people who sign the sponsorship checks.

    As the old saying goes, money talks, bullshit walks.

  322. Mike Felber Says:

    I respectfully think you are missing the relevant point Chuck. 1st, they do not claim that the long threads will attract revenue-in fact, they explicitly say that they are ending the Blog in order to focus on making money-that the Blog takes much time & effort. Though that does not show whether there plans to monetize things are unrealistic-I do not know if they are, & unless you know the details of their business plan, you don’t either. Even if you did, your bias against SM MAY make you unable to fairly evaluate its chances to succeed.

    Your assessment of those on the site is not so charitable too. 1st, there are many younger & some elderly folks there! Look, many like me just love to talk, argue, are sentimental-I never had jock ambitions nor am dying to be an “insider”. It is just a fun, sometimes wit sharpening, educational &/or bonding experience.

    Though your note to them was gracious & well considered, even the unsolicited advice. Now we need a bunch of academic, HOF type threads here to keep things engaging. A little more activity, I will lure others over /raid the pantry to get more commenter. Think I’ll say high to Asher at now. He suggested we get a beer so we can argue in person after our E-mail exchanges. You would like him, he also relatively shortchanges Mays! ;-)

  323. Chuck Says:

    Think I’ll say high to Asher at now. He suggested we get a beer so we can argue in person after our E-mail exchanges. You would like him..”

    What makes you think I don’t know him already?

    And I don’t.

    The end of the blog on BR is a financial decision, Mike, plain and simple.

    Whether it has to do with the site or the administrators personally I don’t, or won’t, pretend to know, but in the big picture it’s all irrelevant anyway.

    The blog takes space. The blog DOES cost money and operates at a loss.

    The blog’s been up for five years, why stop it now?

    Because they have an opportunity to take the site to another level, and the blog is standing in the way.

    Your right, Mike, I don’t know their business plan, but I do know business, and even though my degree isn’t in rocket science, it wasn’t all that hard to figure out.

  324. Chuck Says:

    Maybe you can get John Q. back, Mike?

    Come mid-December when the Tim Raines HOF crap starts again, at least John won’t be alone.


  325. Lefty33 Says:

    “I will lure others over /raid the pantry to get more commenter.”

    Oh Boy, more Saber-ninnys.

    If we’re lucky maybe they’ll be more people running around this site who don’t actually watch games but instead think they are “enlightened” by just looking at acronyms they don’t understand the meaning or context of.

    What a treat.

    “Think I’ll say high to Asher at now. He suggested we get a beer so we can argue in person after our E-mail exchanges. You would like him, he also relatively shortchanges Mays!”

    I’ve posted with Asher off and on for quite a while at Bleacher and he is decent guy but he also thinks that Dawson is the greatest ever so what does that tell you about him?

  326. JohnBowen Says:

    @323, luckily for us, it seems Adam set up an automatic payment plan for DC before going into hiding.

    @324, are any of your baseball buddies in AZ catchers from the 1980’s? They might have an opinion.

    “he is decent guy but he also thinks that Dawson is the greatest ever so what does that tell you about him?”

    Doesn’t sound like a saber-ninny to me.

  327. Cameron Says:

    Sounds like a guy whose idol worship of a player blinded him.

    …Fair enough. Anyone badmouthing Greg Maddux gets a shot to the kidneys from me.

  328. Chuck Says:


    Go back to Seans’ post on BR regarding the demise of the blog and read his post #146.

  329. brautigan Says:

    “where do I go to hate on Joe Carter”.

    I hope they don’t come here. Unless they acknowledge what Joe Carter brought to the game….no thanks.

  330. JohnBowen Says:

    Why hate on him? He just wasn’t as good as his ten 100-RBI seasons would make you think.

    No reason to hate.

  331. Cameron Says:

    I like Joe Carter. I don’t think he was a Hall of Fame talent, but they guy was a hell of a ballplayer.

  332. Cameron Says:

    Also, was anyone really thinking CC was gonna go anywhere this offseason? The guy already had a record-setting contract, the Yankees were bidding against themselves and that was it. I even thought that they’d try and sign an extension like they did, but I wasn’t sure the Yankees were, y’know, smart enough to not let him hit the open market and possibly drive his price up more.

  333. Chuck Says:

    Thankfully, it appears the blog administrators have opened up the blog separately from BR, so now worries about DugoutCentral being turned into a WAR jerk-off fest.

    Whew..rough 12 hours though…

  334. JohnBowen Says:

    Instead we can listen to you bitch about how shitty CC Sabathia is.

  335. Chuck Says:

    I’m glad the Yankees worked out the CC thing early without taking half the off-season, and they did it reasonably.

    Thirty million for a year plus an option isn’t unreasonable.

    Alot better than paying him until he’s 40.

    I don’t think he’s worth it, he’s not in the Felix/Lincecum/Halladay class as a pitcher, but all in all it’s a good deal.

  336. Chuck Says:

    oh. my. God.

    Someone on the BR thread just compared them stopping their blog to the cancellation of Star Trek.

    Can’t make this stuff up.

  337. JohnBowen Says:

    I agree @335.

    Makes sense from both sides, really. CC gets an extra 30M and another 150ish starts of astounding run support.

  338. Chuck Says:

    Nice to see you agree with yourself John.

  339. JohnBowen Says:

    …you posted comment 335 there, big guy.

  340. Cameron Says:

    So, with CC locked up and the Yankees seemingly on really good terms with Freddy Garcia and wanting to bring him back, that…

    Actually, you pretty much have a full Yankees rotation right now.

    CC Sabathia
    Ivan Nova
    Phil Hughes
    AJ Burnett
    Freddy Garcia

    Do you try and upgrade or do you shore up your bullpen that consists of like, two good pitchers (three if Rafael Soriano comes back healthy and playing like he used to)?

  341. JohnBowen Says:

    I have no idea how liberal the Yankees are gonna be with their spending.

    But seeing as they’re the biggest team and all, I would go after CJ Wilson. I’d definitely hold onto Garcia if I can, start him as my long man in the bullpen, but have him ready to start if/when Burnett/Hughes/Nova implode.

  342. Chuck Says:

    “335 JohnBowen Says:
    November 2nd, at 3:06 pm
    Instead we can listen to you bitch about how shitty CC Sabathia is.”

  343. Cameron Says:

    That was comment #334.

  344. JohnBowen Says:

    Yeah, I have that as comment 334 as well.

    Old man needs to get that prescription checked out.

  345. Cameron Says:

    And John, if I’m New York… I know Chuck’s yelled at me for this before, but try Chris Carpenter. Probably something like a 3/$36MM with incentives.

  346. JohnBowen Says:

    Carpenter’s locked up through 2013.

    Signed an extension right before the season ended.

  347. Chuck Says:

    Well, I have it as #335, so I’m going with that.

  348. Cameron Says:

    Oh really? Slipped pat my radar then, I thought they’d decline his option given the payroll uncertainty with Pujols. But with Carp and Berkman locked up, they’re really gearing for a back-to-back here, Pujols or not.

    Wilson… I don’t know. He’s good, shown signs of really improving, but this was a guy who was a career reliever until he was 29. You’re gonna need someone more dependable. …And cheaper. Then again, after CJ Wilson there aren’t any really frontline starters.

    …That being said, New York doesn’t need a frontline starter, it needs a guy who can eat innings and have an ERA south of 5 and they’re fine. Sign Roy Oswalt.

    Also, the Cardinals are interviewing Ryne Sandberg for the manager’s position. Hilarity will ensue.

  349. Cameron Says:

    If Chuck has that at 335, chances are there’s a comment of his needing moderation somewhere.

  350. JohnBowen Says:

    Oswalt would be another good candidate.

  351. Chuck Says:

    I did see that earlier, but it disappeared right away, so I figured John deleted it because it was a duplicate.

  352. Cameron Says:

    I think he’ll ultimately be cheaper for the Yankees and he qualifies as a guy who’s “good enough”. There’s still holes on this team (mainly the black hole of a bullpen), you don’t need to sink all your money into Wilson when you can get Oswalt to fill basically the same role and bandage some other spots.

  353. JohnBowen Says:

    Nah, I remember. You and Mike had a little thing about Kerry’s BR handle. I figured I’d just delete both comments, even though I’m pretty sure it’s nothing.

  354. JohnBowen Says:

    Oswalt’s 1 year removed from leading the NL in WHIP.

    This season was the first year since 2003 that he hadn’t made 30 starts.

    He’s 33 years old.

    Not saying anyone should break the bank for him, but it’s not like this is a guy who’s just gonna sign for 2y/10M because he’s pumped to just see an offer.

  355. Chuck Says:

    ” You and Mike had a little thing about Kerry’s BR handle”

    LOL..not that it matters now.

  356. Chuck Says:

    AFL announces full Rising Stars rosters.

    Game on MLBNetwork Saturday at 8:10 PM EST, Paul Saverino and Dave Valle in the booth.

  357. Bob Says:

    No, Oswalt will get a 2yr deal worth 20m.

  358. Chuck Says:

    Mike Quade will not return as Cubs manager.

    The new manager will not be Ryne Sandberg.

  359. Bob Says:

    Yeah, saw that. Wonder if he regrets his decision 9 years from now.

  360. brautigan Says:

    Terry Francona in Chicago?

    Talk about hilarity ensuing.

  361. Bob Says:

    I doubt it. St. Louis is a very real possibility.

  362. Cameron Says:

    I still can’t believe the Cardinals are even interviewing Sandberg for the job. If he gets it, expect Theo’s parking spot to be the target of many a vandal.

  363. Cameron Says:

    And KC sends… Four to the Rising Stars game, nice. Although I find the question of Nate Adcock questionable. I’m still not sold on him. At all.

  364. Chuck Says:

    Grant Green must be pissed he wasn’t chosen.

    Hit a bomb over the 414 mark in dead center in Phoenix first AB today..into a 12 mph wind.

  365. Kerry Says:

    John, why did you delete those messages? Part of the reason I responded with just a “Hi!” was because Mike said to at least say hi; now the humor (such as it was) is lost :-)

    Kerry@311: “(More later, I’m on a trip right now.)”
    Bob@313: “You expect us to believe that when you work on a college campus?”

    LOL, good one. You’d be surprised how hard most (although admittedly not all) tenured professors actually do work. There are still promotions and raises. If you stop being productive, no more raises. Not to mention the fact that if we slow down our research, we get stuck on a bunch of crap committees :-)

  366. JohnBowen Says:

    On the other hand, Kerry, you’re in the physics/astronomy department, correct? I’m sure you have access to a planetarium – surely you can do some trippy things, no?

  367. Mike Felber Says:

    There are some instructive ironies to savor here. We are down to a handful of commenter here & no new content, & yet a couple of you feel compelled to put down & disdain the dozens of regular contributors to a web site that was overwhelmingly civil, intelligent, & a sort of close knit cyber community. Their demise had nothing to do with a structure & means of participation that we would do well to emulate. Also, some were not into, or anti-SM. And much of the discussion was about other things, stories, general baseball interest & comparisons, & reminiscence.

    Those who were vicious & ad hominem were overwhelmingly stopped through public opprobrium. We would be lucky to have folks from there, if we were smart enough not to alienate. Yes, I would like to have John Q. back, I will see if possible. That is the big hearted spirit.

    I will stay up with their posts, some are sending me notes, though I said it was dof who offered to bring the group elsewhere. I had posted suggesting here as good to discuss things at, but content & welcoming the is a question. Tell me if you WANT new writers from amongst their midst.

    The reasons they folded it are understandable. Though I wonder if a couple others are right: one point is that the views can be deceptive since folks can spend a long period on the Blog & it registers as one hit, while searching many players briefly records many. Also that the unique character of the Blog helped support the stat section, get it more prominence, & was a unique & humanizing attribute for Though if it was going to work out, they would have to have found ways to offset all the listed expenses.

    I did not predict if you knew Asher Chuck, just saying. He actually tried to throw me a bone by admitting that he was upgrading his assessment of many players like Mays do to the handedness disadvantage. I said thanks, but that is not a reason he is better than Musial-a natural situation I cannot add or detract credit from a guy for.

  368. JohnBowen Says:

    Mike, I think Chuck would rather talk to himself about his insane ideas.

    By all means, invite people here. Invite writers. Write something yourself and send it to me ( and I’d be happy to post it.

    ” no new content”


    Just kidding, it’s cool. But they are up.

  369. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 350 – Zero chance that Oswalt goes to NY.

    First off he’s not pitching in the AL for anyone outside of Texas and I would be really suprised if Philly doesn’t find a way to resign him.

    He likes Philly and Philly likes him. Doubtful he’s going anywhere.

  370. JohnBowen Says:

    I’ll bet Roy loves Philly. I’ll bet he also loves 20 million dollars.

  371. Chuck Says:

    We can’t have new writers, Mike.

    I’m aware of Asher’s player rankings, but not of your debate, and our differences were over something much more trivial.

    Typical lawyer.

    consider the source.

  372. JohnBowen Says:

    “We can’t have new writers, Mike.”

    We can’t have writers with admin privileges. So what if they have to send their stuff to you or me?

  373. Mike Felber Says:

    Hey Kerry! Little is going on here, & folks BS all the time, so I think this will be an interesting diversion. Maybe more so than, say, Cain’s woes.

    This summer I read the majority of an old tome you must know well, The Tao of Physics. Here is a similar but current contemplation on the startling overlap between truths expounded though ancient meditative traditions & modern Quantum Physics. Your feedback is especially welcome Kerry. From an E-mail I sent recently:

    Here are musings on the nature of ultimate reality that are both sometimes counter-intuitive from a purely (conventional) logical perspective, & also intuitively grasped going back 2,500 + years in meditative wisdom traditions. Confirmed by modern Quantum Physics. Sent to a couple of friends & seekers, & my dear Brother, who had an actual book published which played with overlapping concepts.

    I have heard Ricard not only on this radio show, but speak on the UES, the putative “Happiest Man in the World” who gave up a promising career in science for Buddhism. His book in conversation w/his Dad, “The Philosopher & the Monk”, was also a best seller. Check out this Chapter excerpt from “The Quantum in the Lotus”, & maybe tell me if you can grasp the concept of, & agree with, The Middle Way between Eternalism & Nihilism, Existence & nonexistence, the illusory nature of Reality. It is not mentioned here, but it metaphorically mirrors also The other “Middle Way”, between extreme self indulgence & self denial.

    The central connecting theme is the non-locality, or interdependence of everything at & through all scales of size, time & space.

  374. Chuck Says:

    I’ll post anything too.

    Bob and Cameron have sent stuff, so why not?

  375. Mike Felber Says:

    Well if the Lockhorns here who write for DC agree, I will offer some to contribute as john suggests.

  376. JohnBowen Says:

    LOL, Lockhorns?

    I’d like to see what you’ve got, Mike.

    Hell, some of your comments could make stand-alone articles!

  377. Lefty33 Says:

    “I’ll bet Roy loves Philly. I’ll bet he also loves 20 million dollars.”

    Which is money that he could get in Philly and somewhere on the internet is an interview that he did where he said that he was not interested in pitching in the AL.

    He said in September over and over that he wanted to come back and pitch in ‘12 and that he really liked Philly.

    The idea of him pitching in NY is 100% fallacy.

    100% guaranteed he is not pitching in the Bronx next year.

  378. Lefty33 Says:

    @ 358 – Agreed about Sandberg.

    I think that in ‘12 he’s not going to managing anywhere but instead will be the Phillies Bench Coach.

    The Phillies also announced today that Andy Tracy is going to be managing in their system somewhere next year.

    My guess is Reading taking over for Mark Parent.

  379. brautigan Says:

    Lefty: My guess for Andy Tracy is he will start in rookie ball or low A. It is rare for a guy to go from AAA to coaching AA. Very rare.

  380. Chuck Says:

    I’ll guess Lakewood.

  381. Cameron Says:

    Lefty, Sanberg’s getting interviews in both St. Louis and Boston. Don’t be surprised if you’re wrong.

  382. Lefty33 Says:

    @379 – I’m just being optomistic but I do agree that Reading is a long shot.

    I think Chuck’s answer of Lakewood is likely.

    The only place I know he will not be is in Clearwater because his family is in Ohio and he doesn’t want to spend another season that far away.

  383. Chuck Says:

    Sandberg in Boston?

    There’s a better chance of Pujols signing with the Royals.

    I can see St. Louis, but my guess is he stays in the Phillies system and is groomed as Cholly’s replacement.

  384. Lefty33 Says:

    “Don’t be surprised if you’re wrong.”

    I wouldn’t be suprised at all but I still think that he’s going to be on the Phillies bench next to Charlie.

    One place he won’t be is in Boston as long as Bill James and the SABER crowd are there. Sandberg is very much on board with the Phillies approach of non-SABER based analytics.

    Pretty much if the organization doesn’t have a traditional scouting based approach he won’t be there.

  385. Cameron Says:

    Boston has a scouting department y’know. Bill James is an analyst, he doesn’t hold that much sway in signings.

  386. Lefty33 Says:

    “Boston has a scouting department y’know.”

    I’m aware but again a traditional scouting based enviorment where Sabermetrics have little or no place is where he’ll likely be going.

    Charlie has got two more years left before he hangs it up. I could very easily see Sandberg taking the bench coach job in Philly for those years and then be handed the reigns after that.

    Again just a educated guess.

  387. Cameron Says:

    Bill James isn’t allowed to have a say in the on-field decisions. Hasn’t for 8 years.

    …Because it was his idea to have closer-by-committee in 2003.

  388. JohnBowen Says:

    I believe Bill James’s idea was simply an “ace reliever” model, by which your best reliever comes into the game when he’s needed, and not when it’s the ninth inning with a lead of 1-3 runs.

    Which should be common sense, but people who “know the game” insist that your best pitcher should be saved to face the fucking 7-8-9 batters with the team up 6-3.

  389. Cameron Says:

    Yes, that’s what it was supposed to be in theory. Unfortunately, Boston’s relievers sucked and they couldn’t find an actual ace reliever.

  390. John Says:

    …and then they acquired Keith Foulke who ace-relieved them to a world series.

  391. Chuck Says:

    James better hope Cherington likes Dunkin Donuts for breakfast, otherwise he’s cashing unemployment checks.

    Matter of fact, I’d be shocked if he isn’t anyway.

  392. John Says:

    Jealous, much?

  393. Cameron Says:

    Considering his ERA was a full point under the 2003 team’s best reliver’s? Yeah, they did.

  394. Chuck Says:

    Yes, John.

    Pay me six figures to pick up your dry cleaning and pick up some Starbucks on the way in?

    Fuck yeah, sign me up.

  395. John Says:

    Man…that’s some bitterness.

  396. Mike Felber Says:

    The AL HR rate leader has been low the last 2 years. This year Fielder had the lowest rate amongst the leader in either league, marginally, since what unlikely infielder? No look ups.

  397. John Says:

    I’m confused by the question…Fielder finished second to Matt Kemp this year. In the NL.

    I’m gonna say Bobby Grich as the unlikely infielder.

  398. John Says:

    Oh, you meant lowest rate amongst the leaders in HR rate.

    Gonna still go with Grich.

  399. Mike Felber Says:


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